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12:00 PM
and Core would be stripped off all legacy bullshit
 
@sbi bad ape!
 
@Xeo Hence the misconception.
 
fuck. MSVC crashed while I had unsaved changes in about 5 files =\
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Nothing less.
 
@Abyx IME it's very good at recovering those changes.
 
12:01 PM
@DeadMG it didn't recover anything :'(
 
one of the things I actually like about VS
 
user784668
@Abyx next time remember to :w
 
I know it's additional burden for compiler writers and perhaps standard creators but still
 
I won't doublecheck what C++11 says in that respect because I'm already doing eleventy things at once.
 
@FredOverflow That's wrong. It's just not portable.
 
user784668
12:02 PM
@BartekBanachewicz which parts of C++ do you propose to get rid of in the Core profile?
 
@sbi No, only not portable.
 
sbi
@Abyx Ctrl+Shift+S
I always save every few mins. It's muscle memory performing that for me automatically, to the point where I sometimes wonder when the "Save As" dialog pops up in FF while I am writing something into some website's editor pane.
 
@Fanael everything that's mentioned as deprecated, left there by mistake or not removed because commitee was afraid of breaking change
also old meanings of keywords
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz the meaning of int is quite old, you know.
 
@Fanael i meant mostly auto
 
sbi
12:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I use it like this:
some_virt_var_reg.add( "some_var_name",&some_container ,&some_container_type::size  );
 
Xeo
@sbi Yes, yes and yes
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz old meaning of auto doesn't exist anymore IIRC
 
> Unicodes
 
sbi
@Xeo Um. I don't think I asked anything, so what are you answering to?
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes There are more Unicodes?
 
12:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes saw that already, huh?
 
sbi
@Fanael AFAIK it does, in C.
 
Xeo
@sbi I was just affirming that habit.
 
user784668
@sbi Utterly irrelevant, C is not C++.
 
@Fanael well, whatever, I am still pretty sure that there would be a plenty of stuff to clean up
 
sbi
@Xeo Sometimes co-workers get annoyed when I am typing on their machine, and I keep saving. :-/
@Fanael I hadn't seen any indication that your statement was limited to C++.
 
user784668
12:06 PM
4 mins ago, by Fanael
@BartekBanachewicz which parts of C++ do you propose to get rid of in the Core profile?
 
well, fuck C
 
sbi
@Fanael Hey, that's 4mins ago now, in a thread that I didn't follow. I am a hominid, you know.
 
I mean maybe it's a bit idealistic
 
@BartekBanachewicz We already discussed this. It would be a disaster.
not that I remember the ultimate reasoning, either.
 
@DeadMG that's why I asked about link, because I felt it might have been discussed, so I didn't want to heaten up the discussion again
@DeadMG maybe it was weak, after all?
 
12:09 PM
It would pretty much be the same as making two languages.
 
in fact, I'm not an OGL man but it's my recollection that most of the participants thought that OGL's core/compat stuff was a disaster too.
 
(Python, anyone?)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not really, because Core and Compat binaries could be compatible
 
so you could have coexisting parts written in Compat and in Core in one app
old stuff would remain as-is, new would be better
 
12:10 PM
That's what you already have then.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No thanks, I'm good.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, because new parts would be compiled under different (better) set of rules
 
@BartekBanachewicz So, two languages.
 
@DeadMG I don't know, I use Core profile
 
how is that different to Wide, really?
 
12:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes in intention to phase out Compat
 
if you start by "Cut the crap from C++", and then follow it to it's logical conclusion, you end up with something like Wide.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not gonna happen.
Just forget about it.
 
well you can look at it as two languages, but in practical terms it's not that
 
It's not a worthy goal, for it is not achievable.
@BartekBanachewicz It's pretty much it in practical terms (see Python).
 
@DeadMG mhm, except I was only proposing cutting out stuff that's supposed to go anyway
@R.MartinhoFernandes Python 2 and 3 have incompatible environments IIRC
I wanted one compiler.
#pragma core
 
12:13 PM
That's just shipping two compilers in one package.
@BartekBanachewicz Erm, there are plenty of programs that work in both.
 
except they differ by like 1%
 
@BartekBanachewicz Then it's not worth it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz There's no difference.
 
@DeadMG there is, at least for industry
 
if you take C++ and you cut the crap, then it opens up more and more opportunities.
either you take them, or why would anybody use Core?
 
12:13 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The industry is why it won't work.
 
and if you do take them then you get Wide, give or take.
 
it's a different thing to say "that's C++ without legacy crap" and "that's C++ except it's not"
@DeadMG because it removes legacy crap.
 
Yay, snapshot compiles my code. Time to upgrade.
 
so what?
 
that's what I am talking about.
 
12:14 PM
I can just not code using legacy crap right now.
 
Core wouldn't be much different.
 
that's free and doesn't need a bunch of vendor support.
 
Is it really so hard to make a core profile for g++ (compiler vendors in general)?
it would just have to be specified, so each and every is still the same.
But I believe it would be trivial for them.
 
It makes no difference. Legacy crap won't disappear before it becomes truly undesirable.
Simply making a different language changes nothing about that.
How much that new language is desirable doesn't affect how undesirable the legacy crap is.
 
compilers prevent people from making errors
 
12:16 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It would be exceptionally difficult to specify.
 
The stricter the compiler, the better.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not all you want.
 
how do you think the Committee is gonna agree on what counts as "legacy crap"?
 
@DeadMG they already specified some shit as "deprecated"
 
not to mention that, as I previously stated, if you really cut all the crap, then you end up with Wide.
 
12:17 PM
I want it gone. Not available. Nulled.
 
auto_ptr and un-rule-of-three.
@BartekBanachewicz That's pointless.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see no point in having them either.
 
If no one wants to use it, it is effectively gone. If someone wants to use it, they'll berate you for removing it.
@BartekBanachewicz The language is not specified for you.
 
Example:
I want to write code with some people. I don't want them to use legacy crap, so we agree on core profile.
Now noone has the chance to introduce it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you make an agreement with them.
If you don't trust them, why are you working with them?
 
12:19 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes OpenSource?
 
You cannot use auto_ptr accidentally.
@BartekBanachewicz Don't take their pull requests :/
You do review pull requests, don't you?
 
I do, but I want the compiler to review first
 
Most projects have guidelines for submitting patches.
 
I am not going to do the compiler's job.
 
It's not the compiler's job.
It's your whim.
(Compilers warn about deprecated features, btw)
 
12:20 PM
Then fine, I want configurable optionsets for compilers that remove old crap.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ask that of compiler vendors.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes -Werror
@R.MartinhoFernandes I could. But that being nonstandard effectively means I will need one optionset for every compiler :(
 
@BartekBanachewicz It cannot be standard.
It's your optionset.
 
It's optionset removing stuff that's been admitted to being a mistake.
 
(Such things already exist btw: -fno-rtti for example)
 
12:22 PM
I'm back!
 
@BartekBanachewicz You have that already: turn on your warnings.
2 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
(Compilers warn about deprecated features, btw)
I don't accept code that triggers warnings with my build settings into my projects.
 
@not-TonyTheLion I just did something. I didn't "start" anything. I will not account for your copy-cat behaviour. This is entirely your job.
 
eh, I think you win this round.
-Wall -Werror -Wdeprecated
 
The relevant one is -Wdeprecated in GCC.
 
doesn't Wall trigger that anyway?
 
12:24 PM
Not sure if it's in -Wall or -Wextra, but one of them, yeah.
 
apparently they have their own definition of "all"
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz -Wall-that-are-useful-to-virtually-everybody is too long.
 
@Fanael -and-easy-to-fix.
 
> The following -W... options are not affected by -Wall.
 
user784668
Clang has -Weverything.
 
12:26 PM
Lol
> Warn about violations of the following style guidelines from Scott Meyers' Effective C++ book:
 
-Wall doesn't mean "all warnings"; it means "bang your head against a wall"
 
@BartekBanachewicz That one is way over the top. Too many false positives.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes And totally subjective
 
user784668
--all-warnings doesn't mean all warnings either.
 
12:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Item 15: Have operator= return a reference to *this." seems sensible.
"Item 12: Prefer initialization to assignment in constructors." that too
 
@BartekBanachewicz Turn it on individually if you want.
 
> error| parameter declared 'auto'
 
I tried -Weff-c++ for a while, and tossed it because it was spamming for no reason.
 
"man, eff C++, man"
 
12:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Item 7: Never overload &&, ||, or ,."
woooo
-Wold-style-cast
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's fine, it means it could at least be useful to those of the same subjectivity. In practice it isn't because of false positives.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep, I guess.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but I don't really need a warning for that. If I do it, it's not accidental.
 
user784668
yay
 
user784668
finally compiled a working Emacs
 
12:30 PM
If I typo some other operator overload, the code that would need the correct one won't compile.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes too bad warning disables are only for one compiler.
 
@not-sehe Is that a pun?
 
#pragma loose
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz ?
 
good morning. or afternoon for you guys?
 
12:31 PM
@Fanael you can disable warnings but they are not portable, right?
@Aboutblank afternoon
 
@Aboutblank afternoon here
 
@BartekBanachewicz You should not require specific warnings in the standard. If some one is worth of putting in the standard, it should be ill-formed outright.
 
user784668
Emacs, wtf.
 
user784668
Why are you putting some of your code before the runtime has a chance to initialize everything.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Appendix?
 
12:35 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What for? To keep a non-normative incomplete list of potentially bad code in the document?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes something like that, yeah
 
It would not do anything.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz there already is one, zero characters long.
 
Additional checks are a measure of quality of implementation. That's all.
There's no point in requiring checks that don't make the code ill-formed.
Think of warnings like the output of an external static analyser.
It just happens to be built into the compiler.
 
12:54 PM
How do I name || . ||∞ in C++? infinity_norm looks terrible.
 
But that is it, no?
 
Ye. supremum_norm is also another name.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Wazzat?
 
So what's wrong with the name?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was curious if someone would be creative enough to find something else. It's an implementation detail so doesn't actually matter.
 
12:56 PM
In mathematical analysis, the uniform norm (or sup norm) assigns to real- or complex-valued bounded functions f defined on a set S the non-negative number :\|f\|_\infty=\|f\|_{\infty,S}=\sup\left\{\,\left|f(x)\right|:x\in S\,\right\}. This norm is also called the supremum norm, the Chebyshev norm, or the infinity norm. The name "uniform norm" derives from the fact that a sequence of functions \{f_n\} converges to f under the metric derived from the uniform norm if and only if f_n converges to f uniformly. If we allow unbounded functions, this formula does not yield a norm or metric i...
 
oo, didn't notice that name
 
@LucDanton You could always call it maximum or something (not sure of context).
 
sup_norm lol
@R.MartinhoFernandes Misleading as the vector elements can get negative.
error| stray '\342' in program
damn!
 
user142019
Hmm.
 
@LucDanton Hmm, 0xE2?
 
user142019
1:00 PM
A type switch in C++ with try/catch.
 
user142019
Because fuck dynamic_cast. :D
 
Tried norm∞ as an identifier for laffs.
 
Ha.
Lemme check if allowed.
Nope.
Not disallowed either, though.
 
ye, that's how I remember it
does this look like I want it to be
meh
 
1:02 PM
Erm.
Did you put an umlaut on a greater than sign?
 
> Apl functional symbol greater-than diaeresis 0x2369
 
OH GOSH IT'S PRECOMPOSED
 
APL is srs bsns
Ya know, I already have an abs_max and the vector is of known size. Putting 1 and 1 together...
 
Combining characters are explicitly disallowed in C++ identifiers. Meaning you may be able to use greater-than-diaeresis, but never less-than-diaeresis.
 
what. The not-s are taking over the Lounge! nooooo
 
JBL
1:08 PM
@Doorknob This is the not-Lounge you're looking for
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's bananas.
 
@not-TonyTheLion I'm sure some part of that is. But which part, and how, eludes me for the moment,.
 
Hey, @DeadMG, you may be interested in github.com/ishani/ClangVSx
 
> copy-cat
 
definitely interesting
 
1:16 PM
> error: constexpr blah blah blah called in a a constant expression
what
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hm, I wonder what about .pdbs
 
Jun 11 at 14:35, by Luc Danton
> error| '(long unsigned int)std::integral_constant<long unsigned int, 3ul>::value' is not a constant expression
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
it's a plane! no, it's precomposed!
 
@LucDanton Did you figure it out?
 
JBL
1:19 PM
Out of curiosity (and even potential interest), what's Clang good for ? Only performances ?
 
For clanging your computer against the wall
 
@JBL Good C++11 compliance, good diagnostics, fast compilation.
 
JBL
@JerryCoffin Thanks ! I'll definitely look into that VS add-in then.
 
@JBL please remember you won't be able to debug (or at least I think so)
so if you want to debug, you have to write shitty VS-compliant code
 
1:21 PM
-    , int Size = min(tuple_size<Tuple>(), tuple_size<Tuples>()...)
+    , int Size = min(tuple_size<Tuple>::value, tuple_size<Tuples>::value...)
 
The error is in (gb::CN | gb::CR | gb::LF), but only in the second |
 
JBL
Well...
you could write clang compliant code, compile, and then re-compile and debug with MSVC ?
Right ?
 
Ah no, it errors on both.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes clang
 
@JBL MSVC is not compliant with C++11. It hardly even tries.
 
1:22 PM
It's just that the last one is tested first because left-associative.
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz Bleh...
 
@LucDanton Ugh, can't work around mine like that.
 
sbi
@GMan :)
 
@JBL so that's a choice between "shitty code, debugger" or proper C++11, no debugger
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz So if you want to debug, you're definitely stuck with MSVC ?
 
1:23 PM
also supporting developing countries developers
 
For now I'll workaround it with // TODO investigate GCC bug /*constexpr*/
 
@JBL well if you want to debug with their compiler, because all other are arguably crappy
 
@BartekBanachewicz you mean not-the-VS-debugger.
 
JBL
Sigh.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Theirs is too.
 
1:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes obviously
@JBL my reaction was similar quite awhile ago
 
Their good debugger is the .NET one.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lesser evil
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz I'm still discovering.
Ironically, I feel I start getting into it at the end of my studies.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I read "[...] is the .NOT one". Get out of my brain @sehe
 
@BartekBanachewicz We had this before and it boils down to graphics and not knowing how to use the others.
 
JBL
Mmmmh.
 
1:29 PM
FFS
 
JBL
Can't find out about MinGW. I feel like I could assume it's equivalent to GCC. But that feels wrong at the same time to assume this...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yuppe.
@JBL It's G++/Gcc for windows
 
The creator of ML looks crazy.
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz I know, that's why I thought I could assume it could be equivalent in terms of compliance.
 
@JBL the deeper you go the worse it gets
 
JBL
1:31 PM
@BartekBanachewicz And yet I keep on digging.
 
@JBL libraries are still not finished, bear that in mind
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz What ?
You mean C++11 related ones ?
 
@JBL the compiler itself is 100%, but the parts of stdlib are not.
@JBL yep
 
JBL
Oh ok.
Well, that leaves pretty much MSVC if you're dev'ing on Windows, if you want to be able to debug (oh and to have an IDE too).
Until JetBrains finally releases IntelliC++.
 
I compile my code with both
 
1:34 PM
@JBL It does not.
 
@JBL QtCreator is actually a fairly decent IDE. Not great (IMO), but decent nonetheless.
 
Combination of MSVC's debugger and G++ warnings is pretty much the best you can get
@JerryCoffin yeah, but its debugger is worse than terrible
The thing I like the most in QTC is ability to create your own project types easily
 
@BartekBanachewicz If you want a lousy debugger with mouse support, yes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you're claiming there's some part of it that qualifies as a debugger?
 
@JerryCoffin it's some ducttape and one table control slapped over gdb
 
1:38 PM
aaaaaaaaannnnd it still doesn't work
 
@BartekBanachewicz You don't seem to have answered the question...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes at least it refreshes and allows easy inspection of complicated data structures
 
@BartekBanachewicz Erm, no, it does not.
 
@JerryCoffin well yep.
 
1:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes #worksforme
 
Unless by easy you mean rudimentary, and by complicated you mean vectors.
 
lol
I haven't had much issue with MSVC
 
JBL
I don't know, at the moment it's enough for me, but again, I'm not that deep into C++.
 
I really don't know what you're doing with it Robot?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Much like the old line about democracy, it's the worst thing possible -- except for everything else.
 
1:39 PM
Well I use GDebugger more than VS debugger really
 
@not-TonyTheLion Debugging.
 
I started to write better C++ lately, that actually works
 
I use VS debugger EVERY DAY of my life
 
I don't use the debugger for trivial stuff.
 
Its one of the better things I get to use
 
1:40 PM
The times when I start the debugger I need to use a lot of it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like to step through the execution and see what the code is doing.
 
Unless you're talking about debugging templates, I don't know what you think is trivial?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, that pretty much counts as not-a-feature, because it's in every debugger.
 
templates are compiletime, @Tony
 
I know that was my point
 
JBL
1:41 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You got caught, aren't you ?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hehe, some can fuck up even this
@JBL got caught ?
uh
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz He was obv. trolling.
 
whatever
I am off for the bus
@JBL I can't detect trolling
I take everything seriously.
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz What are you doing on the internet ?
 
1:42 PM
@JBL I ask myself the same.
 
Same as everyone else: avoiding work
 
JBL
@not-TonyTheLion Well, excepted the obvious of course.
 
@not-TonyTheLion FWIW, VS even lets me down on trivial stuff.
@JBL (The usual stuff I complain about: inspecting pointees through smart pointers, or watching the result of member functions)
 
JBL
@R.MartinhoFernandes How ?
 
1:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Apparently you suck at VS then. Not sure what else to say. I can debug smart pointers just fine.
 
JBL
^lol
 
@not-TonyTheLion Can you use p->whatever?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Where?
 
In the debugger, duh.
 
@not-TonyTheLion In the watch window.
 
1:46 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually, I think I can.
IIRC
 
So what do you want me to say?
Nov 6 '12 at 10:50, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> CXX0063: Error: overloaded operator-> not supported
 
overloaded
huh
 
@not-TonyTheLion Like all smart pointers do.
 
user784668
Smart pointers are dumb.
2
 
I normally just inspect variables and return values
use conditional breakpoints
this stuff works just fine in VS
 
1:48 PM
@not-TonyTheLion How do you inspect return values?
 
with his eyes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there's a little window that shows them when you come out of the function, lemme find it by name
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You have to do expr.operator->()->stuff.
similar for quite a few overloaded ops
 
@DeadMG Yeah, I know of the workarounds.
Doesn't make it any better.
 
yeah it's not great.
 
1:53 PM
@not-TonyTheLion Ah, it's Autos.
 
yea Autos window
 
y u no Dark theme
 
I got tired of that
 
alright
now "Visual Wide" has error highlighting for basic lexer errors.
 
Dec 6 '12 at 14:56, by jalf
ah ok, yeah, it really really sucks at calling functions interactively. It might be possible to do somehow, but... I've never done it because it seemed so needlessly painful
 

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