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13:00
for some reason. they started with it many years ago, migrating from vb6, and then never took any other step away from it. every new project ended up in vb.net
the positive side of that is when ppl ask "but why do you actually dislike vb?" you have reasonable answers for them
Also, VB.NET isn't VB6.
@HéctorÁlvarez surely you can't be fired for saying you don't want to do vb
I prefer C#'s syntax over VB's, but with VB.NET that's mostly what it is - a stylistic preference.
13:13
@HéctorÁlvarez no jobs available there?
@CaptainSquirrel Oh you are so wrong, simple as "well then we don't have projects for you, bye! GL!"
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan To be accurate this isn't VB.NET. In fact it's not even VB, they abstracted VB core functionality and developed a rehashed language that adds some functionality over VB for their use, but lacks pretty much anything you can think of.
@Proxy Nope, Spain is terrible at making companies succeed, there's so much corruption I still wonder how we are still in the EU
well that way it sounds even worse then Croatia
guess all mediterranean countries are in the same bag then. Well, most of them
We're hovering around 25% unemployment rate
There are spikes are key points in history, when companies are encouraged to spam 7-day contracts for research purposes, so everyone is hired for a week, Spain's full of people working, then all go back home and engross the unemployment rates back to full
Too much corruption, politicians being prosecuted time after time for stealing, the last news from yesterday, a notorious person who stole 850.000€ selling stock for a bank.
@HéctorÁlvarez why not take a project and write it in c#
and then present it as
look at how much better this is
A whole autonomous community flagged as corrupted, as all officers were family among each other, and there were more spots than those allowed by the estate
13:23
why is C# fundamentally better than VB?
@CaptainSquirrel Because it's an ERP, we are not allowed to develop anything without their tools.
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@misha130 syntax?
less "clunky"
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wait, I don't know the meaning of "fundamental"
exactly
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13:24
> forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.
ugh, I still don't get it
I'm serious.
ok try objectively
syntax is subjective
Because there were so many people who learned Java, it was free, and C# was Java with a a good IDE and similar stuff, so nobody wanted VB.NET
just trying to say vb as a language shouldn't warrant rewriting projects in C#
For me it was basically "Are you tired of Eclipse being shit? Try C#, we have Intellisense"
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I think it all boils down to how expressive the C# is compared to VB.NET
13:26
well eclipse is shit
Also you have to choose one or the other. C++ was notoriously one of the most powerful languages back in the day and advertised as such. COBOL was great for banks, FORTRAN for data scientists, etc. but C++ was what people used to build pretty much everything from videogames to microchips.
So it make sense to move to C# with all the jokes on it
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Don't you think Obj-C is as fast as C and C++?
(C++)++, C-sharp as if being half a tone over C, etc.
Obj-C is dead, a dead horse doesn't run.
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I still like the fact that the Obj-C has somewhat automatic "garbage collector"
I wish C++ delve into that way also
Garbage collection is a luxury IMO.
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13:32
Yes. Instead of creating VMs for every platform, they could like, you know, copy how Obj-C does it.
Either you have a powerful high level language with it like C#, focused on abstraction layers to make developing easy, or a very powerful low level language where you even need to allocate memory manually to make your performance lightning-fast. Being between those 2 options literally doesn't help you either way.
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Creating VMs for the sake of garbage collection. Sacrificing all those performance
With C++ you just know when you stop needing certain resources and free them, GC is a luxury to forget about that and focus harder on what you're doing at the moment.
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I'm betting Swift can do it in the future.
@HéctorÁlvarez Ah, well, that's far worse, because it doesn't even teach you any skills applicable elsewhere. I would avoid it at all costs - they know that the more you use that language, the less you're worth outside and the more dependent you are on them.
13:35
talking about syntax
obj c is garbage syntax
Aye this feels like crafting code like a true artisan, can't be more manual.
@HéctorÁlvarez Your appreciation of the quality of C++ code is much too high. I've seen so much C++ code in production that consistently failed to release resources properly. GC isn't a luxury - it's a fantastic tool that trades some performance for a lot of reliability.
Not to mention developer productivity.
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@misha130 I used to feel the same way til I used it for just 3 months. I kinda like it a little.
If Android just uses Obj-C instead of Java
I am sure you can get used to it but it feels like it doesnt follow standards for languages
prolog makes more sense to me than obj c
hah prolog
what a weird language that is
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13:41
hehe
I can't imagine how that was programmed
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@Neil this sentence reminds me of Bill Gate's AMA in Reddit
I didn't see his AMA in reddit
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Right, but what I mean is that a language like C++ or even C, what you're trying to achieve is maximum performance which is why you code every single detail. E.g. in my previous company people had to use it because they couldn't afford to waste a single CPU cycle doing anything that wasn't productive. An on-board monocore chip that has to perform 5 tasks at once in real time without ever getting stuck, can't afford losing anything even if the complexity was along the lines of O(log n)
Then again, why would someone choose C++ to develop a game? Unless you want to bring a masterpiece 10 years ahead of time like Crysis, and no computer can run that with a stable performance, you may use your luxuries.
Anyway, I'm out for the day
Cheers guys
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@Neil it was something along with these lines:
guy1: what is your first computer language?
microsoft: Prolog
guy2: oklol
13:46
\o
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I can't find it though
I wouldn't have assumed that was Gates's first language
@HéctorÁlvarez For an embedded system or high-performance game, a GC is luxury. For a distributed server system, squeezing out every ounce of performance from your chips at the expense of developer time might be considered a luxury.
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@Neil hmm maybe it was cobol
yeah it's cobol. it rhymes with oklol
damn
miss the opportunity
if that was his first language...why wasnt dos written in cobol..
its almost like someone else wrote it...
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13:50
Guy 1: What is your first computer language Mr. Gates?
Bill Clinton: COBOL
Guy 2: OKLOL
and then he...
🤔
@misha130 Maybe because there were about 5 years between his first language and when DOS came out.
🤔🤔🤔
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Maybe he realize COBOL is an awful language to learn further
Microsoft was founded 6 years before MSDOS 1.0 came out.
13:52
what did they actually do for 6 years
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They really nailed it. They had nothing, yet they convinced IBM
what he founded his first company at 1972
being 17
According to his Britannica biography, he wrote his first program at age 13, so about 13 years before MSDOS came out.
@misha130 They wrote a BASIC interpreter for some systems.
its not the kind of hash you are thinking of
its #hashtags
13:56
@mr5 Blii Clinton answered cobol?^^
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^^
You could use hashtags as a hash, assuming they could easily distinguish various items in your cache
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I always wanted to chat during working hours but my seat have been transferred near project managers and our boss
@Neil sounds like a rap
You're not "chatting". You're networking in your field, consulting with experts, and extending your knowledge via the internet.
9
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Yeah but I don't think they would see it that way.
Before I make a silly and nitpicking decision, I always ask it on the internet first.
14:04
COBOL is one of those things that I would eliminate if I could time travel.
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Why is webp preview not supported yet
I find Opera useful because we have hundreds of network problem in the office
Hundreds?
Maybe change a network card?
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Not in PC. Maybe the Router or the Hub or the Switch or the ISP.
14:20
Ahh somewhere outside the internal
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan from now on, I will do that
I use Opera
it cannot be 2%, if even I use it
I'm sure it's somewhere around that
I have used FF for 8yrs
Giving opera a try today
all b/c I can't play Pluralsight videos in FF for some fucking reason
can someone help me?!?!?!?!?
SomeID = 3
Response.Redirect("DrillMain.aspx?mode=add&CID=" + SomeID)
and get this error
Conversion from string "DrillMain.aspx?mode=add&CID=" to type 'Double' is not valid.
whats going on???
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stop converting string to Double
It is not valid
duhhhh
im not doing any conversion
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14:34
Tell that to your compiler
i'm literally concatenating a Long id to my url
ain't no conversion happening afaik
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maybe you have switched the operator type precedence?
Instead of:
1. string
2. Double

it is now:
1. Double
2. string

so you're likely to cast the string literal into Double
Post the actual code causing this issue or an MCVE
Because what we currently have is incomplete
its working
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My advice is to checkout roslyn source code, check the operator precedence, comp... oh nevermind
14:46
i just did cstr(SomeID) and its working
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Pretty sure that is hack
Any extra code that is unnecessary is a hack
whats wrong with the following snippet?
public bool Foo {
get;
set => Bar();
}
cstr? really?
what's wrong with .ToString()?
why does get must have a body? can't it act by default?
if set is defined, it cannot
14:49
thats what I noticed apparently lol
what would it return? if set is default, it can automatically make a backing field, and just return that
im a hacker man
aren't there something like value for gets?
:)
what are the other options other than a backing field?
14:50
no. There is return in get
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@Henri because you lose the automatic property as soon as you define any of get/set body, meaning, you would require to present a backing field
you just set Bar() as a set.... Where is the backing field in that?
the real scenario here would actually pass the value parameter to Bar()
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Why not post the real code instead?
so that Bar can be accessed through properties
this is for a WPF app
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14:52
Oh. There are two users with almost the same avatar asking questions.
??? pass to Bar? you call => Bar(<empty. Not passed value in that>). This way you doesn't pass value
yep. Use property changed. And it cannot infer you would like to set some backing field, which is the result of Service.Result... instead you could set the backing field in the Service.Result, and return that in getter
@Henri You gotta return smething on get, dude.
well, I could instead just create a property for that service to return a boolean
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14:55
Leave the bodies of property alone. Do that in OnPropertyChanged
That would be ok
and then:
get => Service.IsRecording;
:D
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God. I already hate you
Or your service get' an event too
@mr5 what do you mean?
14:59
least surprise sais that you shouldn't do that kind of things in property setter/getter
@mr5 aw, how cute
properties should be auto props, and some methods should set them
ewwwwwwww
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🙄
15:01
that is bad :D
first of all, you need IPropertyChanged on the VM
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@ntohl well, you did not read my comment don't you?
this is a special case where Enabled doesnt need a backing field
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@Henri are you doing this in an MVVM arch?
I did. But Fody.PropertyChanged only converts the classes that ARE actually INotifyProperty changes
15:03
@mr5 yes
@Henri It's ok, but wouldn't get notified when your service stops recording by itself
Just a sec...
this is true, although the service will never stop recording on its own
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@Henri well, be prepared to write boilerplate codes
this class operates over the service
so it's always getting some new elements, and you want get to show the most recent?
notification only works on actual setter calls. After you started the service, it doesn't notify anymore
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15:05
@ntohl oh damn it. I'm so used at template codes that's why I never bothered to write codes with that
so the Service.Recording is only updated once with the value at the beginning
if you want something pull/push based notificatoin service, you could bind to a github.com/runceel/ReactiveProperty
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It doesn't even account for same value validation
I'm starting XYing here. Is it like you should monitor where does the service at?
because after logging in, you could just set the autoprop
nvm
going home
@Koosh are you in the wrong room? You know this is the C# room, right?
so here people are saying you should never use private vars.
42
Q: How to get the value of private field in C#?

ChanI ran into a problem that I need to access to private field of a class. For example: class MyClass { private string someString; public MyClass( string someStringValue ) { someString = someStringValue; } } How can I get the value of someString outside MyClass ? Update...

but how about this case:
15:16
so you kicking me out
@user14492 who is saying not to use private variables?
"Never use private vars" is kidna stupid
Only sith deal in absolutes.
@Koosh no, I just want to be aware of what sort of help you're going to get in this room
theres no vb room, but I am working in visual studio in TFS, so pretty much different programming language but still more similar than javascript
that question. imenat never access private outside of class
15:17
or Python
i understand, thanks
@user14492 that's literally what private means though
In general, if you need to access a private var outside of the class, there's something wrong with your design.
yeah gimme sec
!!googleme SOLID programming
15:18
you can show me what's good design then
read that
> since the field is private you should not be trying to get it with normal code. The only time this is acceptable is during unit testing, and even then you need a good reason to do it
jesus.
That's not how unit testing works
15:19
even for unit testing, private is private
for anything except for itself, such things dont even exist
you cant test things that dont exist
;)
I'm just quoting the answer, not making a value judgement.
and we state that the answer was silly :D
except there is no other solution for it
silly is better than nothing
nothing is better than silly
2 mins ago, by Squirrelkiller
In general, if you need to access a private var outside of the class, there's something wrong with your design.
15:20
wait... that didnt make sense
silly is not better than nothing
			public class MyClass
			{
				private string myStr;

				public string MyStr
				{
					get => string.IsNullOrEmpty(myStr) ? "Not Availble": myStr;
					set => myStr = value;
				}

			}
how would you test for that. bcz anything you get from the property will always have "Not Availabl".
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I upvoted the question for his position going an extra mile to touch the production code
only if myStr is null or empty
@user14492 you don't
Is it acceptable to interrupt your nice talk to ask about debugging problem in Xamarin?
15:21
so instead of checking against null, you check against "Not Availble"
yeah. it's actual question. people just like to repeat what they heard
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@mshwf go on. this is a public chat anyway
@Wietlol I do that everytime!
then you do it "right"
Some of the worst code I've ever seen was a property where the getter had a potential to mutate the backing variable
(there isnt really a right or wrong, but there is a "better than silly")
15:23
@Henri This is what I kinda had in mind. Sorry, I overengineered a bit.
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I can't understand why it isn't embedded in the language
@MikeTheLiar gen.NextRandom
gen.LastRandom
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gen.PrevRandom
Boom! It's not random anymore!
pi.CharAt(pi.Length - 1);
Well, it was randomly generated.
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15:25
@MikeTheLiar let pi = '4'
@user14492 You stuff in a null, and then assert that MyStr is "Not available"
Then your test goes red, and BOOM TDD -> you learn that you have a typo.
Can the debug window give additional info about exceptions thrown , there's this exception
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. but no additional info, or where does it came from?
@Squirrelkiller yeah i don't want to hardcode the values.
Debug window?
yes
15:26
@user14492 If there's a value hard coded into production code, you gotta hard code it into the unit test
output window
How else is the unit test supposed to know
from debug
@mr5 pi is 10 in base pi
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@mshwf hit the "Run" button once more. It will generate the additional stacktrace
15:26
05-23 17:18:16.314 D/Mono    ( 5677): Found as 'java_interop_jnienv_new_local_ref'.
05-23 17:18:16.351 D/Mono    ( 5677): DllImport searching in: '__Internal' ('(null)').
05-23 17:18:16.352 D/Mono    ( 5677): Searching for 'java_interop_jnienv_call_nonvirtual_float_method_a'.
05-23 17:18:16.352 D/Mono    ( 5677): Probing 'java_interop_jnienv_call_nonvirtual_float_method_a'.
05-23 17:18:16.352 D/Mono    ( 5677): Found as 'java_interop_jnienv_call_nonvirtual_float_method_a'.
05-23 17:18:16.517 D/Mono    ( 5677): DllImport searching in: '__Internal' ('(null)').
@Squirrelkiller except it's not. i would rather write hardcoded value in one place than two. for obvious reasons
public class MyClass
{
private string myStr;

public string MyStr
{
get => string.IsNullOrEmpty(myStr) ? Defaults.myStr: myStr;
set => myStr = value;
}

public static readonly MyClass Defaults = new MyClass {MyStr = "Not Available",};
}
@mshwf Did you jsut paste a java stacktrace into the c# room?
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It's Mono
@Squirrelkiller Xamarin I think
Ok just making sure
15:28
now i need to get the private val of myStr to check in unit test.
!!java
@MikeTheLiar That didn't make much sense. Did you mean C#?
@user14492 why?
@user14492 You don't check the actual value. You want to test the functionality.
i just told you.
15:28
@user14492 You almost certainly do not but the earlier linked answer details how to do exactly that
1 min ago, by user14492
@Squirrelkiller except it's not. i would rather write hardcoded value in one place than two. for obvious reasons
If somehow the value is wrong, but you call it and by black magic the right value comes out of hte public api, your class still works.
in unit tests, you are supposed to write more hardcoded values than anywhere else
2 mins ago, by user14492
@Squirrelkiller except it's not. i would rather write hardcoded value in one place than two. for obvious reasons
Are you evne listening?
15:30
even if that hardcoded value is in a public static readonly variable, you still hardcode it into your test
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@Squirrelkiller Why are you setting it to their default value?
yes. are you?
If you have to have a hardcoded vlaue somewhere, put it in the unit test
You want only one hard coded value? Put it in the unit test.
Have the tested class pull it from a service
that you mock
or something
lol. then what am i testing? the calss can't see the hardcoded value
You are testng whether the class rightfully returns an error message instead of null
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15:31
You don't even need to apply best practice in Unit Testing lol
You test the functinoality
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Why do you need to beautify the Unit Testing though?
Step one: find out what exactly the class should do
no. who said an error message? it's defaults.
Steo two: Test ofr that
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15:31
Srpt tereh: whever!
Ok then: You test that the class returns the default message instead of null.
yeah. i need access to that static var's private vars otherwise tests will never fail.
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> "i need access to that static var's private..."
You skipped step one of testing
Figure out what your system under test is supposed to do
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Google's Japanese to English translation is pretty good. I guess Japs language are very ordered and structured
15:35
so there is no solution. people there are just bashing others for fun. you have to access private vars for this. i was here for "good" design. but there's nothing
I'm trying to get you on the right path. And I know that sounds like a missionary.
But I still haven't heard a single try to solve step one.
What should your unit do in what situation?
@user14492 I'm sorry you don't want to hear this but the answer is "you're not supposed to do this, by design, it's not how things work"
"How do I take my car underwater?"
you don't
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@user14492 if you badly need to access the private fields, why not go your linked post where it answers how it can be done?
Sure, you can spend millions of dollars converting your car into an amphibious submarine
ohlala. you just don't. except you must.
15:37
That's why a popular way of naming your tests is TestedThing_InCircumstance_ShouldDoExpectedThing.
Or you can accept that that's not how car's work
@user14492 Says who
Who says you must
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It is not called "private" for no reason
Give me one single solitary reason why you must unit test your private variables.
And think very, very hard before you answer because this conversation is wearing thin quickly
you guys are like undergrad coders. read something somwhere and just cannot imagine anything else. bcz world is just that simple
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I barely made private fields except if I need a somewhat highly customized functionality
15:39
Let's roll with the car analogy though.

You have a car.
You press the pedal.
You now want to check whether or not hte car is moving.
IN your example, you go into the engine and check if the cylinders are moving.
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Why kick him out though?
@user14492 I absolutely positively guarantee that you are not the special snowflake you think you are.
When actually you should look at the tachymeter
@mr5 Insulting the people trying to help you isn't going to get you very far
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I actually think we need to teach him more rather than shut him down. He clearly is a newbie in C#
15:40
!!votekick user14492
@Squirrelkiller voted to kick @user14492
Oh he's gone already. K.
@mr5 He clearly is not interested in our input
lol. you have no input
@mr5 Because he 1) didn't have a dialog and 2) he started to insult us.
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15:42
oh. yeah. I just laugh at him if he comes to me like that personally.
I mean irl
@user14492 Sorry you don't like our answer. If you're not willing to accept it, go elsewhere.
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He sounds like me when I was a teenager ^^
And have fun writing unit tests for your private variables.
2
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HAHAHAHAHA
I vote that user14492 become the new j.doe
sorry j.doe
Also if he needs to access a private variable, why not just make a public variable that only returns the value of said private variable
15:44
Nah j.doe actually tries to have a dialog
This user...he is like a wall.
ok fine, he's like a rip off j.doe
He's like the stupid version of j.doe
> - I want to do (seriously misguided thing)
> - Um. You probably don't want to do that. I mean, if you really, really want to, here's (way to do seriously misguided thing), but you're probably doing something wrong. Why don't we talk about how what you're trying to do any how to do it properly.
> - lol everyone says it can't be done why can't you just see that you're blind to the truth and I _must_ do (seriously misguided thing) and _literally everyone else in the world is wrong but me_
> - Best of luck to you. Goodbye.
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This kind of moment is actually fun. Having someone around that infuriates RO and moment of them getting kicked out :D
lol I'm so far from infuriated I can't even tell you
annoyed, yes
Infuriated, not in the slightest.
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15:47
Oh well, I like to tell things sometimes in exaggeration, plus, I'm one of those person who is very excited to use fancy English just for the sake of using it :D
Then you're going to love the word "hyperbole"
Which means "exaggeration plus"
Time to go and watch john wick 3. Have a nice evening everyone!
Also hyperbole is pronounced differently than you think
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I need the word for exagerration++
15:48
O7
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hayper boley?
Pronounced "hyper-bowl-ee", more or less
@mr5 overexagerration
k bye
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how about (exagerration++) += 1?
A daily allotment of eggs and silver, eggs + ag = a ration
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15:50
embroidery o.O
Embellishment
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Can I replace exaggerration with embroidery?
It sounds embalming
Excruciatingly.
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I know that word ha!
I feel excruciatingly happy! best feeling ever!

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