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15:00
A normal chrome session (Facebook, youtube, twitter, daily mail, reddit) uses little under 1GB of ram
@LeeButler My chromesessions usually take from 4 to 10gb RAM ...
damn tabs
@SebastianL But you wouldn;t buy that shitty laptop
yeah :P
I have MS Teams open here, which I'm using as an analogue for Discord. That's using 700MB of ram.
You should also keep in mind that it doesn't free it until it has to.
15:01
What's the current normal for populating view models. My first instinct was to pass an entity framework model to it as a constructor argument and populate it in the constructor. Is that what people do? I don't know. Is there some literature on this?
Spotify has another 300mb too
I have Discord open here. Uses ~175MB.
@Lemonade1947 Our VMs tend to hold a reference to a DB Model and expose properties that pass through, unless they're to be modified
hmmm seems almost every dev has the chrome&discord&spotify combo :D
Whatsapp desktop (which is apprently a thing) also runs on electron. Call that another 400MB or so
15:03
Spotify is close to 300 MB as well.
(Strictly spotify isn't electron, but it's CEF so its almost the same)
When you say expose, what exactly do you mean? Through getters and setters, something like that?
Yeah my spotify (not playing) is at 291MB
@Lemonade1947 Yes
@LeeButler its a shitty port from the webapp
You're mentioning a lot of things that anyone who buys the cheapest laptop in the world is unlikely to use.
15:03
My mother uses Spotify and has a HP Stream
@RudiVisser cheers
If that aint the cheapest laptop in the world idk what is
We're now on 3.5gb used of "4gb", that's assuming windows is being nice and only using 1gb. Recommended min reqs for Windows 10 64 bit are 2GB of ram. The laptop, having 4GB of ram, is likely running 64 bit windows
@RudiVisser get a used ultrabook with i5 8gb ram and 500gb hdd for the same price
I've opened some random 2.5k word essay in Word. That's another 153mb. At this point, the ram is likely paging to the disk, making the system probably run like shit
15:06
way better value
@SebastianL I've still got Chrome, but newer versions of Firefox are more responsive and lightweight, so I usually use Firefox
Oh, and I've got no idea how well electron apps run on a 1.1ghz processor
Yes Lee, at that point you're using the laptop for things it wasn't designed for.
A laptop like that is for Facebook and Bejeweled.
@WilliamMariager ever tried to play bejeweled 3 on an atom tablet?
@WilliamMariager So you're saying a college student wouldn't have a laptop like that and use it in the way I just described
15:07
.. I think Chrome has more UI-thread-blocking IPC going on. their process-based-sandboxing is awesome, but not cheap
No, college students are idiots. They also place their laptops on their blankets and fry the electronics.
They would definitely do that.
@Zarenor yes i like that if a thing crashes it doesn't affect the other "tabs" ^^
They also drive their cars into power poles.
They're idiots.
Lee: Most college students like you're talking about, no, won't. They browse social networks, do word processing, and play games on consoles.
Tldr: Even doing basic functions on a cheap laptop will leave no leeway for electron apps
15:08
If they're gaming, they're not using an Aspire
I never said anything about gaming
Your point isn't valid though Lee.
are we discussing why electron is bad
It's a constructed situation that only applies to people who are being cheap.
15:09
That's what Discord is for. And electron isn't heavy. 175MB isn't heavy.
electron is bad, but it's a natural thing to have sprung up when uwp was so bad.
what else are people supposed to use.
Actually write programs for each platform, using the advantages of the platforms individually, rather than providing a subpar experience for all users
that's what I mean
@Lemonade1947 Why is it bad?
That's so horrible Lee
15:10
That's way more expensive
Then there's my personally most hated thing about Electron. the UI always looks disgusting
@LeeButler So you're saying all web pages are bad?
If you were going to write a piece of software for windows right now, what'd you use @LeeButler
There is no native UI
a keyboard
15:11
You go from a 1.2-1.5x cost for three major platforms, to a 3x cost
At that point, you might as well argue we shouldn't use C# when C++ would be faster hand tailored to each system.
I'd build my UI in WPF. Which is exactly what I am doing literally right now
WPF just didn't get enough love.
Which has zero portability.
It gets worse as you target more platforms. The development time is simply too expensive
15:11
@LeeButler How is a <button> not native UI?
Since it's powered by DX9.
if it had gotten more than maybe we'd live in a different world.
but we didn't.
then*
I'm not saying it's a cheaper way of doing it
I thought WPF did eventually get targetted to Dx10
Hasn't happened yet Zarenor
15:12
:(
I have a feeling it might not be happening at this point. ;)
But you're saving money during development by making a poor experience for the end user, which depending on what you're doing the user might not use your applications for long.
Even though the concept of people writing full desktop apps in html/css/js is scary and quite sad to me, I do totally understand why it happened.
@LeeButler No, but you're saying it's what an industry should do, and industry runs for profit, and so a 2x relative cost increase matters!
What end user are you talking about? The hypothetical idiot college student that thinks a $200 laptop will run anything?
I feel like they need to be taught a lesson at that point.
15:13
I'd happily use web apps in a single browser. It's just stupid that every electron app has to fire up it's own instances of chrome to run its simplistic UI
For the other 99% of end users, Electron is perfectly fine.
I've had plenty fun on <£200 laptops.
At what gain? A supposed performance gain? It usually doesn't pan out, if you're not writing a C++ Win32 app. WPF isn't that much more performant than xxx.
You have to save time and money in development, because otherwise someone else hits market first, and it doesn't matter if you're better if they get eyes on it.
15:14
^^^
I'm not suggesting that fast or easy development is a bad idea
I think it's great.
If you perform 20% better, with 50% less bgs, it doesn't matter, if you're the second or thirs to fill a market gap. The first guyt and the second guy already have 80% marketshare
I just wish it wasn't javascript based
I just think that electron as a platform is terrible
15:15
That too
That's a dated way of thinking Zarenorrrororor
Yeah. JS is a whole other bag of....
I think the electron platform is terrible, but I think it's the best of a bad bunch
UX is complicated. My parents and relatives claim better on GUI that everything bigger, less content in screen and buggy overlap each other.
Rudi: Dated.... 2015? 2017? It's a recent, viral-economy-based phenomenon
15:16
Dated like 2012 I'd say. Everything now is a rehash of something else
It's got its huge advantages of rapid developement cycles, and disadvantages of being resource heavy and poorly optimised
Electron has use for prototyping
Electron.NET for prod
Exactly
Wait
😂
No one wants to develop 4 different apps for 4 different platforms, though.
that's the thing.
15:17
@Lemonade1947 console apps? :thinking:
Unless it's pretty specific, nobody gives a toss about 4 platforms either
I know, and I agree that seperate developments for different platforms is a PITA
Then you only have to code one UI that opens a terminal, ezpz
idk what the answer is.
But I would 100% support electron if it didn't run like crap having to lug a huge chrome instance behind it
15:18
The answer is use whatever works ...
I'm just saying that I understand why electron exists.
Users don't give a shit about the technology behind it, as long as it works.
I can definitely agree with that, @LeeButler
When resources and manpower is set to unlimited.
And Electron solves the problem for everyone except the one friend Lee has.
15:19
If you have enough of an appeal to be able to mass market to those that would buy both high end and very low end machines alike, it should be done right
I'm thinking Spotify falls in that category.
Because as someone earlier said, the types of people with low end machines aren't the type of people to use <insert niche electron app here>
And they're doing nicely with Electron
They aren't though
it works alright, sure
You do say that, but they'd use the web app
15:21
it's hard to believe VSCode was written in electron
But the recent UI update a couple of months ago completely confused some people. It even threw me. Where is the menu bar? Why doens't the window have a title anymore? etc
Remember the old days of VS Code where it existed as a means to do xplat dev for core
nope
I do not
I'm installing VS code for the first time ever now
there's also a terminal emulator written in electron
15:22
VS Code is beautiful
VSCode is pretty good
I remember when atom came out thinking "truly this will be my last text editor"
Enter VS Code ...
then it bugged out in a really weird way, and I lost a load of code, and then I tried vscode
Yeah, I use it for everything now but there are still things that piss me off about it. I just can't describe them
Something something about file tab handling something
@RudiVisser I think it's just the general microsoft-yness of it.
15:23
and something something whiny about those panels that just won't piss off at the bottom
No I'm MS Fan #1
Okay so it's open. First impressions of it are it's will designed, it looks like a roughly native application
#WPtillIDie etc
But as soon as it's open, bang, 300MB of ram gone
I understand though that it has a bunch of features
Remember kids, developers don't think about memory any more
I feel like 300mb of ram isn't over the top for it.
15:25
I feel like your system might be broken Lee
I mean it's no notepad++ but still
That's why us golden oldies (and embedded) devs are so valued
Mine uses 240, and that's including a bunch of addons.
That is exactly the point I've been trying to make.
RAM is not unlimited
Oh I wasn't paying attention to the topic
Just jumping in for fun
15:25
The wider the audience you target, more conservative you have to be on your resources
mine is also using 300mb
No images
Yeah Electron has a base memory usage of 4 billion bytes
it's dropped to 233 now.
15:26
But thse days as Rudi just said, nobody gives a toss about client resource usage at all. Developers think they can take anything that's available
Because they can.
My devs ask me sometimes why I do crazy shit, and it's partially because I'm crazy but also because I care
In the name of perf and/or resource optimisation, that is
@WilliamMariager And that is exactly the problem I'm talking about
It's not a problem.
I wish sophos and cortana would leave
Holy crap why does Fx use so much memory
You came up with a constructed situation to fit the argument that it's a problem.
15:29
I like how I have both sophos and hitmanpro
nice one it dept
I've barely got anything open, I haven't really done anything today
Why must you cheat in height
4k screen innit
1080*1920 display
aka 1080 portrait
Ah Portraitors
I'm only at 8960x1440 :(
and my PC is dying now, deffo could not do 4K
Not with 4 monitors, anyway
@Lemonade1947 did you change your monitor orientation for that?
turned my 4k vertical and set it to 100% scaling just to take that screenshot
yes
it, for some reason, killed my colour correction profile.
15:33
I've only got 1 screen in portrait
Not gonna lie I tried to change taskmgr's scaling but got bored as it has a different shortcut menu than other apps
That's cheating
Isn't sharing a list of all processes potentially leaking business information? I could imagine some employers not liking that.
well colour me jealous
Like what
15:38
@LeeButler Is that a K95?
"Oh no the company some guy on stack works at uses VS
I dunno, information about tooling used, which could give attackers information on what types of attack to use.
@MadaraUchiha That's correct. K95 platinum RGB
Once I know you're using node.js for the host, you open up for social engineering attacks, because I now have a bunch of information about your setups.
With a Logtech MX Master mouse which is abosolutely the best mouse for productivity IMO
15:39
I'm sure you thought this through, just seems careless.
Node is running because of photoshop
Or VS code. Or both
It's just an example.
Like I said, I'm sure you thought it through.
Yeah there's nothing unusual there. You could also work out where I work by looking at my profile and clicking a couple of times
What the hell graphics card(s) are you running Lee
Nvidia GT 1030
Singular
15:41
@LeeButler That's my point. I know where you work, I know your name, I know where you're located and now I now about various tools you use.
If you look for about 30 seconds more you can find out where I (used to until like 2 weeks ago) live, my phone number, my email address, etc
@Lemonade1947 I like how the ear gets Waaaaaaay bigger on the left screen
I'm wondering if what you did is a GDPR breach in some way. They're pretty strict. The whole thing about taking security serious.
there's no data on the screen
15:43
I know, it doesn't have any personal stuff
It just amazes me how careless some people are.
GDPR protects natural persons from companies. There's no personal data on screen in the image (there was about 10 seconds before) and the details I was talking about before are all things I've posted publicly online
I wish I could tell you the stories that I have about people being careless with data
but that would, in itself, be careless with data
(checked for data breaches)
Ew it's so wide
Everyone has a better setup than me :(
15:44
I literally spin around
I know what GDPR does. I'm sure everyone in here does. That training was so boring it hurt.
And there's 4 different screens wtf
wtf do you want from me
Get the same screens
if you have 4, why not have at least one vertical.
15:45
Oh right
I just bought (a couple of weeks ago) a pair of 4K screens for home
@RudiVisser ew visual studio
Well the ASUS got discontinued, the HP was on offer for £190 and was a bargain and it's now back up to £400
4k screens are a pain
They're the same, and they replace my old dual 23" matching screens
15:46
I was gonna get another HP for the middle but
Best screen I've had was a 30" 2560x1600.
"The middle"
I also don't have 2 phones to wirelessly charge on the screen so
there are so many applications that don't handle scaling very well
Yeah, I only need the 1440ps for code
15:46
@WilliamMariager i have an 3440x1440 :D
Expensive as shit when I got it 8 years ago, but it had the perfect ratio between resolution and size.
oddest resolution i have ever seen
@SebastianL My laptop is 4K, only have a few issues
Mostly with legacy installers
4k laptops are dumb
the screen is so small
you have to scale it so much
so what's even the point
@Lemonade1947 it's quite nice for reading text though
15:47
sure
but not that much nicer
When I was trialling 4k screens I had to have these in easy reach
VS shits the bed when doing winforms development when VS is running in Hidpi scaled, so I had to set it to be scaled by the OS so the winforms designer wouldn't be fucked
15:49
I thought you liked native ui APIs :^)))
Yes, much nicer
Otherwise though, most applications I use scale fine
@LeeButler v
Using a 1080p laptop now is painful
I have a thinkpad tablet that's on 150 scaling and that's quite nice, I'll admit .
15:50
i have an ultra wide monitor as my daily driver and i am quite pleased so far ^^
(16:9 i think)
I really liked the 4K screens, but I won't bother trying to get work to buy them for me because I don't have any real reason other than "it looks better"
I didn't even have to ask for mine
"we bought you a 4k screen"
I had the 27" 4k on 150% scaling, it was great
1440p's on 125% = win for coding imo
Make one vertical, it'll change your life
15:51
@LeeButler mine is on 125%
Seriously, being able to see so much code vertically is wonderful. As long as your lines aren't too long
That's the problem I had when I went portrait
Though I would recommend breaking most of your panes into a seperate window, otherwise it gets really hard
if i go portrait, i need a ladder
I have my solution explorer, error list, toolbox, Build&Run, Properties, etc etc etc on another screen
Vertical is also handy for this chat because you can see quite far back
15:53
visual studio on exactly half of a 4k screen at 125%
on a 30" screen I might be able to manage 125%, but on a 27" it was just too small
this is why 125% is ideal
get better eyes tbqh fam smdh
to be quite honest?
Why are your tabs so colourful
i would be able to fit 215 lines of code though...
15:55
shaking my damn head?
I like the coloured tabs, what's that?
I can fit 101 lines on my vertical screen
@Lemonade1947 You need FiraCode in your life.
Oooh yeah FiraCode is fit
idk what that is and I'm scared of anything relating to js
It's not related to JS
15:56
It's a font
Just a different font
Very nice to use
50 on the horiz. Minus a couple of extras for the "X references | y Changes | z Authors, A Changes
linklonk me up
15:57
Takes a bit of getting used to, but once you have, it's sweet.
Yea I'm @ 55 on horiz w/ CodeLense
Hmmm
I will download this just for the novelty
It's v nice to use
v nice
v v nice
It's a bit weird, I'll give it a go and see how it goes
But damnit I want coloured tabs @Lemonade1947 Give info

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