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8:07 PM
cbg @Doorknob
 
8:18 PM
@JonClements sorry, what's cbg mean? Google is not being helpful here
 
@Doorknob either @JonC is evangelising, or he's forgotten which room he's in ;-)
 
@Zero arghghg... I'm so use to saying "cbg" - sighs
 
And which vegetable, fruit, fungi or seed does cbg represent?
 
@JonClements Hahaha, but I'm curious... isn't "hi" one character shorter anyway?
@Seth A shortened form of "cabbage," I presume
 
ah, duh.
I should have caught that!
@ZeroPiraeus hmm, /me likes!
Or should I say that's bananas?
 
8:24 PM
@Seth I guess you could say "peas"
 
@Doorknob avocado.
 
laurel
 
I should really hang out around SO chat more often, but I have tabophobia and just can't get myself to open 3 separate chat tabs for all the networks :/
 
hangs head in shame
 
@Seth I've got 10 tabs open right now exclusively for chat. (I prefer 1 tab per room)
Usually it's 9, but this room has bumped it up to 10.
 
8:29 PM
At least it caused a laugh :p
 
@Doorknob dies
@JonClements Hey, I thought it was cool! No lemon there!
 
@Seth uh oh, did I cause an allergic reaction?
 
It certainly helped your standings in my "who gets third vote" list :P
@Doorknob My tabophobia.
 
Anyone wanna bet what the threshold will be this year for rep?
 
8:35 PM
/me making a very carful effort - hi @Benjamin :)
 
Hi what's up?
@yellowantphil it's already higher than last year
 
@Benjamin absolutely fantastic people throwing their hats into the ring... I think it's terrific
 
Yeah, lots of good candidates this year
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm going to guess we're going to get ~3 more candidates before primaries (the current trend is ~2 nominations/day, which is likely to decrease), so I'd say maybe something around 5k?
 
That makes sense
 
8:38 PM
I'm looking at some, and thinking... should I withdraw...
 
You have a fighting chance :)
@Doorknob it'd be really funny if it settles at like... 20k
 
Yup... so gonna stick with it :)
 
Although there are a lot of 5-20k candidates so that's really unlikely
 
the highest possible minimum is 306k
 
A ton of people from the Tavern nominated this time around, which comprises most of the <20k group
2
 
8:40 PM
no, it's 296k. Two of the top 30 people are already mods
 
I believe Jon Skeet explicitly stated he'd never run for mod, though :P
 
@Doorknob anyone from the tavern ever won a mod election?
 
@TravisJ Can confirm: hit 100k, got a pony
 
@meagar :D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum SO, or any site?
 
8:50 PM
SO
 
Hey, I must have missed something; is Andrew Barber no longer a moderator?
 
Don't think so, not recently at least. Perhaps a while back (there used to be a completely different crowd there).
@meagar no :(
 
Oh :(
 
So not to sidetrack from the current discussion, but the meta post referenced earlier was reposted on MSE meta.stackexchange.com/questions/253164/…
 
9:02 PM
Speaking of Moderator Elections, are you all following this drama?
3
A: Abrupt change in moderation staff?

HopelessN00bMy response to Shog, since I've been accused of avoiding answering his question: (Text below) from Shog9♦ sent 22 hours ago to HopelessN00b Just saw this. Hundreds of questions closed with the same canned comment linking to old meta discussions that don't explain the closure. No new meta d...

 
yeah... :/
 
9:27 PM
Oh boy... I hadn't seen that.
 
@durron597 this would make an excellent question for the survey
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - If they follow drama?
 
@durron597 @Shog9 what a mess lol. On Saturday too.
 
@TravisJ ^ I had the same reaction, haha.
 
@TravisJ I mean - describe the scenario and ask them about it.
 
9:34 PM
"You have just set out to close 100 questions with your moderation powers. After doing so, you are stripped of all moderation powers. How do you respond?"
 
I'm not so sure I don't agree with Shog here.
I think that closure campaigns should be as public and open as possible, closing hundreds of related questions with a custom message is pretty strange. I think Shog should have probably been more political in the response on the meta but I do think he has the sentiment right.
 
I think there's more going on behind the scenes that we can't see.
 
I cannot judge one way or the other as I am not familiar with the on topic debates at SF nor with their overall meta culture.
 
At least, that is the impression I get from Shog.
 
As someone who doesn't frequent SF, I admit it looks odd from the outside. It does seem reasonable that Shog would see it, but surprised, and take some temporary measures to ensure everything's okay, but it now seems like it was a simple misunderstanding.
So then why is this still going on?
That's the question I have.
 
9:39 PM
@AlexisKing It would look bad for SE for Shog to come out and say that he was blatantly wrong; that would lead to a lot of backlash. So I'm assuming he's looking for a way to put down the matter as carefully as possible.
 
@Seth Aye. I read it, maybe, as though he might suspect that the closing actually being done my a script -- maybe they happened suspiciously fast, or something -- and that wouldn't be so good.
 
Stack Overflow == Server Fault, I see?
 
I think this should have been handled in private before talking about it on meta SF, I think it that doing it in public closed the window for re-modding him, made some of the community feel betrayed and produced drama.
 
My quoted question above was meant to be facetious just to be clear, I was not suggesting that as an actual question.
 
> Since HopelessN00b wants to have this discussion in public, I will oblige.
But yes, probably.
 
9:41 PM
@AstroCB I don't know. I don't think it would look all that unreasonable if Shog just came out and said "there was a misunderstanding, but it's been worked out, carry on."
 
@AstroCB My impression is that admissions of fault tend to go over better than this.
 
@AstroCB the thing is - a lot of people have lots of alternatives for places to spend their time that are not SO. Lots of people who would've made significant contribution to SO left because of treatment either by other users or the site staff. The entire JS room almost moved at a point and it required very careful cleanup and handling to prevent it from happening. Drama drives people with better things to do away.
 
@JeremyBanks On Stack Overflow, yes. Shog and the SE team have a strong presence there, and the community (especially Meta) is very comfortable with them. As I understand it (I don't even have an account there, so I could very well be wrong), that is not the case with SF, so any harsh moderation actions from the outside are probably not seen in a very good light.
 
I'm sure there is more going on behind the scenes. I disagree with Shog on a lot of things but he generally does his research first and took a reasonable approach here. If a moderator can't respond gracefully to a temporary suspension with request for clarification, that's a bit of a red flag. It's weird that this whole thing ended up public anyways.
 
@AstroCB That makes more sense. I don't really use SF, and I've gotten very familiar with the SO/Meta.SE way of doing things.
 
9:43 PM
The "Hey, pause, what's going on? Ok, thanks for the clarification, carry on." thing is pretty innocuous, if it triggers drama, somebody's looking at something the wrong way.
 
@JasonC That's what I find odd. This doesn't seem big enough to prevent Hopeless from being re-modded.
 
@AlexisKing well, now it does
> That trust has been betrayed. I am extremely disappointed in how this situation has played out. I will be working directly with the remaining moderators to ensure that this community's standards are being upheld and communicated effectively, and that any damage is repaired.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Why, just purely from the drama?
 
The only source I have for that, by the way, is the quick glance I took at the AMA that the sysadmins did on Reddit; a lot of people asked why none of them were very active there.
 
Yeah it's super weird. I think most of the drama was set off by site users. A better solution might be to not remove the diamond from moderators who have their privileges temporarily suspended. Keep it on the DL.
2
 
9:45 PM
34 secs ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
> That trust has been betrayed. I am extremely disappointed in how this situation has played out. I will be working directly with the remaining moderators to ensure that this community's standards are being upheld and communicated effectively, and that any damage is repaired.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Right, that isn't enough to me, either, since that was written before the discussion really commenced, as far as I can tell.
Sure, there could be something going on we don't know about.
 
@JasonC that's a solid meta.se suggestion, I'd +1 it if you make a post.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Already typing it, heh.
 
But I'm just making that judgement based on what I've seen.
 
@JasonC O..kay... not that that would be a mess to implement & confusing at all... but again, this is Stack Overflow. :P
 
9:48 PM
@hichris123 Whether it's a mess to implement or not isn't my problem; that's why we've got [status-declined]. :)
 
@AlexisKing the communication should be improved - I think what @JasonC suggests could help with these situations in the future.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Absolutely, I agree. A sudden removal of a diamond with no reason would absolutely be confusing and unsettling without an understand of what was going on.
 
> It kinda sounds like you've correctly identified the problem, and then... Arrived at the status quo as the solution. Let's face it: as a community, your reputation for cruelty, snark, and general unhelpfulness is unmatched - even Programmers, which attracts far fewer questions per day and rejects nearly all of them, doesn't come close to generating the levels of straight-up vitriol that y'all do.
 
yup.
 
> And so, upon observing that the only folks willing to still come here are utterly lost and desperate, your solution is... youtube.com/watch?v=0VjPNKc0VsU – Shog9♦ Nov 20 '14 at 18:50 serverfault.com/election/4?tab=nomination
 
9:50 PM
@durron597 wow
 
(those are the same quote, but too long for one chat message)
 
@durron597 whereis this from?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The Nov 2014 ServerFault nomination page. See link in the second message
 
yup.
 
found it, thanks
 
9:51 PM
That's an impressive amount of edge coming from a person like Shog.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Shog tried to settle it privately. Noob made it all public (edit: whoops I should scroll down first)
 
There is a reason I desperately avoid SF at all costs.
 
He's usually pretty calm and level-headed, even in situations like those.
 
@Seth I just never needed it :P
 
@AlexisKing Yeah, I think he really did not want Noob elected in the first place.
 
9:53 PM
@AlexisKing It is Friday, and an entire website community is accusing him of doing something wrong that was probably right.
 
I was stunned by that too, I never go on ServerFault but I did during their elections and I remembered it vividly
 
@durron597 That quote does seem to indicate that this is partially the result of a long period of friction between N00b and Shog.
It would explain a lot. That incident in isolation seems too small to have triggered the reaction Shog took to it, considering the tone of his writing.
 
Wow, that moderation nomination is horrible.
> ServerFault is in decline, and has been for some time. The main page is flooded by off-topic questions, by users who are either incapable of, or unwilling to read the simplest of instructions. In short, these are desperate, extreme times, when ServerFault is desperate to be saved from the flood of extreme stupidity overwhelming it.
 
It, and the comments, are a pretty astonishing read.
 
It does make me feel considerably less sorry for N00b.
It certainly puts things into a little more context.
 
9:56 PM
5
A: Should the rep requirement for creating tags on Server Fault be raised?

Shog9So... Normally, I would collect some data on how many tags are created by users at various rep levels, and how they were used. This is a pretty decent way to gauge whether anything of value would be lost if the privilege were bumped up. I started to do that here. The results looked good - barely...

 
> What we need for these exceptional times are someone exceptional. Someone with exceptional methods, exception snarkiness and exceptional cruelty. Someone who will strike at the core of the problem, the exceptionally vapid new user horde, with exceptional enthusiasm and vigor.
wow
 
I don't think most people wanted noob elected besides the SF people themselves. Personally, I think the fact that they even gave him as much of a chance that they did shows a lot of patience.
 
How could they even make someone like that a mod?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Now you understand Shog's comments above..
 
Reading that nomination has changed how I view this entire debacle in my mind.
 
9:57 PM
@Seth If I were shog I'd not make him a mod in the first place.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Democracy. They should have Simon Cowell/Sanjaya-ed it right then.
 
@JeremyBanks tp
 
> @Shog9 That reputation comes from whiny illiterates who don't like that they get down voted for bashing their keyboards randomly and trying to pass the output off as a question on this site, so ServerFault's reputation for snarky helpfulness is unfair, and unwarranted. On the other hand, I actually am snarky, cruel and very good at offering profoundly unhelpful help.
wow
This sort of attitude is exactly what drives users away...
 
@AlexisKing Did you read the other answer I just linked?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well I'm not aware of any alternative..
 
9:59 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeesh. It makes me glad to know our candidates on SO are so fantastic in comparison.
 
This is why I'm not really upset with shog for (somewhat) muddling the protocol.
 
Here's my question for SO candidates: "Is there ever a reason you would consider merging 1400 tags into "?
 
and not being the absolute nicest about this.
 
@Seth refuse to work with him and not make him a mod - is an alternative.
 
@durron597 I did, but I wasn't entirely sure what you were pointing out.
 
9:59 PM
Alternative #2 - fork SF.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The community elected him.
 
@AlexisKing It's another event in the long standing friction between them.
 
@hichris123 I think the community team might have veto power.
 
@AlexisKing The community team does have veto power. These websites belong to Stack Exchange, not to us.
 
Get 1000 people from SO who are constructive, really good at SF things and are willing to help into a private eta. Give them tools to clone questions from SF. Grow the community from there.
 
10:00 PM
@durron597 Yes, I considered editing my message to make it more emphatic.
 
I would be stunned if they didn't have an internal debate about it (and ultimately decide to let the election stand)
 
Lots of people have really shaped up after being elected, at least from my perspective, so I think it's generally good to give them the benefit of the doubt; Stack Exchange should be very hesitant to mess with election results. But when his election platform is that...
 
In here we have a saying that if a tree grew crooked you must chop it from the root or something like that.
 
@JeremyBanks But there are a lot of ServerFault users that want that
 
@JeremyBanks his election pitch is that he is going to be snarky and talk down to users...
 
10:02 PM
@AlexisKing They do, but think about the outrage that would have ensued. They would probably only veto if something really bad would happen (read: Evan Carroll is elected).
 
@durron597 That seems to be incompatible with general network policy.
But I'm going to shut up now, because I lack the perspective for intelligent comment.
 
@hichris123 to be fair, it's probably pretty interesting from a community manager point of view to deal with these situations
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum meta.stackexchange.com/questions/253172, hopefully the post is clear. I don't want it to degenerate into a debate.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Probably. But the will of the people is not to be taken lightly.
 
@JasonC I upvoted.
 
10:09 PM
me too
 
The primary criticism of my suggestion is going to be "We should know when these kinds of things are going on, transparency is important," but it's really kind of moot at the stage that investigations like that are specifically in. Drama can always be had afterwards.
 
@JasonC Likely, these situations are much rarer than you think.
 
Also, now that I know how terrible his election pitch is I've kind of lost all sympathy :P
 
@hichris123 I'm sure they're super rare.
 
Also, any motivation to participate in SF
 
10:14 PM
I guess we should probably stop discussing this here, since it's pretty off-topic.
 
@JeremyBanks How is a discussion of moderator behavior off topic? If @JonEricson wants us to stop, he'll ask.
 
@durron597 It's not Stack Overflow moderation, and it doesn't seem like a useful discussion so much as a bunch of people eating popcorn while watching a disaster from afar.
 
Or we could get more popcorn and zoom in ;)
 
@JeremyBanks "A bunch of people eating popcorn while watching a disaster from afar" is a pretty accurate description of the SE user base.
 
For example, what was so bad that the user in question, and another group of users, left SF chat for a private chat room, especially since they all did so during the election.
 
10:19 PM
We're debating the behavior of a moderator and of SE in a given circumstance.
 
A room where he has posted some 26,000 messages
 
@TravisJ from my experience moving to a private chat is a form of showing distrust.
 
Y'all go ahead, then. :P
 
@TravisJ wait what?
 
Requires sifting from there
Note that was directly during the elections for that year
 
10:21 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sorry, had to step out. If the CM team actually had to do that it would cause a ton of backlash and kind of end the whole "democracy" thing. I get that it isn't really democracy and that they 100% have the right to do whatever they want but I don't think even SE (or Shog for that matter) wanted to pick that option.
 
@TravisJ why'd they do it?
@Seth yeah, rebooting that community probably was/is a better option.
SF has a lot of potential for devops questions that's unrealized
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - No clue, I only just got there and a few of the surrounding days. It is kind of like a binary tree from there where each message has 2 other messages or actions related to it
It could be nothing.
 
@JasonC Why'd you kill that?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum SF has a ton of potential! I can just imagine the things I could learn from them..
 
10:24 PM
I've removed my post for now. I think it may backfire and carry the drama on longer, which is the exact opposite of the goal. I'll put it back later, after things have settled down. It's not time-sensitive. cc @durron597
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Highlights from the related messages is an image of faceground :P
 
@TravisJ saw those :D
 
Also Shog's comment in your question is the first time I noticed Andrew Barber is no longer a mod, heh.
 
I saw that coming :(
 
@JasonC maybe just remove the SF related things from there and suggest in general?
 
10:24 PM
Even though meagar mentioned it like 5 chat posts above one of mine ;)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's a current event. It will be associated with something going on and people will look for it. Even if people don't, anybody involved in the current event will likely have a lot of emotion and bias in their responses. I think it's best to let it cool down.
 
Was there a meta post about Andrew leaving?
 
@Seth likely after the election.
 
That's what I thought.
 
@JasonC Hmm. Probably a good call.
 
10:26 PM
@JasonC fair enough, as you wish
 
10:37 PM
Anyone feel like violating the moderator agreement by telling us how active the SF folks tend to be in the teacher's lounge?
 
I'm not sure that's a violation of the moderator agreement (pretty sure it isn't actually..).
 
@JeremyBanks They are $activity_level active.
Did that answer your question?
 
@hichris123 now you're sounding like my phone carrier :)
 
@Seth Ahh... the moderator agreement speaks of PII, not all private information in general.
 
10:40 PM
@hichris123 No seriously:
 
@Seth "variable minutes" what programming language is this?!
 
@JeremyBanks Right. I'm not really sure how far that stuff extends tbh.
@hichris123 I have no idea.
 
@Seth I'm still waiting for the day when the synth voice says "Your call is important to us, null. Please stay on the line."
 
hahahaha!
 
I had one recently that dropped "<pause> Valued Customer" every where my name should have been. It was pretty irritating.
 
10:45 PM
rotfl
nothing like removing any last vestige of customer trust.
 
I know, right. I don't remember where that one was from, I want to say it was Samsung's Business customer support.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - I give. Found nothing.
 
11:02 PM
thanks anyway
 
On a related note
:)
 
11:20 PM
in The Comms Room on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 47 mins ago, by Iain
@shog9, please fo fuck yourself and admit you are wrong - twat
 
Found it! lol
 
(I hope everbody knows better than to jump into that chat room and respond to him.)
 
Wow though, that is pretty incendiary
 
from a 70k (10th-ranked) user
 
That is also the owner of their private chat room
 
11:22 PM
@TravisJ Ahh, interesting.
 
It kind of reads like a stutter from the spelling error
 
@JeremyBanks flagged, sorry :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Did you flag it for a moderator?
 
no, flagged as spam/offensive
 
Well, at least it is still here. If you are going to flag this one as well, it seems that it would be at the very least better to let the mods know what happened. As is, they potentially never saw that message, and if this one is removed, it would have gone unnoticed.
 
11:33 PM
@TravisJ we're aware of it.
 
@hichris123 - Okay
nvm then
 
@TravisJ Yeah... all I can say is this is going to be an interesting situation.
 
What are the biggest SE sites?
 
For sure, I was just worried the whole thing might get deleted without anyone noticing.
@BenjaminGruenbaum - The trilogy right?
SF SU SO?
 
@TravisJ Yeah, thanks for wanting to make sure we're in the loop on this.
 
11:36 PM
@TravisJ I think so too, but I'm not sure.
 
I think Math.SE is the second-largest by several metrics questions per day, now.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - stackexchange.com/sites#users
 
wow there's a pretty big SO in Russian ru.stackoverflow.com
SF is actually smaller than askubuntu
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - Since at least 2010 apparently
 
programmers has less visits a day than seasoned advice
@TravisJ woah
lol, 20 visits a day for communitybuilding.stackexchange.com
 
11:42 PM
Did they import a bunch of content from an existing Russian site?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum - I have had really good interactions with seasoned advice
 
> [...] we hired Nicolas as a community manager dedicated to bringing up Stack Oveflow in Russian, and so taken with what the Hashcode community has built that we'll be importing it once we get the new site stood up.
Cool!
 
It's 1 month old
It's a reboot, probably.
 
@JeremyBanks - That is pretty sweet
 
Oh, no it wasn't. It was just a clone that really sort-of looked like SE1.0.
 
11:46 PM
It was a really impressive clone, tbh.
 
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