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7:00 PM
Cap?
!!are you alive
 
@mikeTheLiar Probably
 
Well that's reassuring.
 
user7480455
i think most life of this planet has adapted to live on the planet
 
sigh !!urban is broken and has been known to be so for months.
 
except human...
 
user7480455
7:00 PM
we have changed the planet of make it easy for use to live on it
 
Umm... wouldn't it be ALL life on earth?
 
user7480455
no
 
@007 holy shit
do tell
 
user7480455
we just got here
 
animals adapt, humans destroy
 
user7480455
7:01 PM
yes
 
user7480455
the naked ape
 
We still need things like gravity and an O/N atmosphere
 
i'm not naked
 
user7480455
lost all they abilities it had to gain more intellect and intelligence
 
@KendallFrey wait, really? I thought that one still worked. I know all the google-based commands have been broken since forever.
 
user7480455
7:02 PM
we got smarter.. but out smarts made us more cautious
 
@mikeTheLiar yeah...
 
I think it just some species became ill / sick and mutated, we are basically a virus...
 
user7480455
I agree
 
user7480455
a mutation
 
viruses and mutations are two different things and I am neither
 
user7480455
7:04 PM
yes you are
 
:D
 
I'm a human. Humans are not viruses. Humans are not mutations.
 
Kendall just failed the virus mutation test...
 
user7480455
you body carries enough pathogens to kill off everyone on this planet
 
user7480455
just like mine
 
user7480455
7:05 PM
but I'm dead inside...
 
I find that unlikely
 
@KendallFrey All species are mutations. That's not a bad thing. It's just how nature works.
 
user7480455
as i am old and busted rusted worn out
 
Given that I'm not dead yet
@Hypersapien No species is a mutation
That's like calling an apple a sunbeam
 
user7480455
what colour are your eyes kendall
 
7:06 PM
white
 
No, it isn't. It's like calling an apple a fruit.
 
user7480455
you win
 
@Hypersapien ...no
 
We are smart. But ethics and morality are somewhat perverted these days. I often find animals more humane.
 
user7480455
so true timur
 
7:06 PM
Mutations are how evolution works.
 
Partly
 
Mutation and natural selection
 
user7480455
but morality is just a concept
 
But that doesn't mean species are mutations
 
no you dont understand, if for example tomorrow everyone will become zombie or something but will be able to reproduce next generations of those creatures will think that they are ok and everything is good and that they was meant to be like this...
 
user7480455
7:07 PM
not a binding resolution
 
@007 But it's a concept we need in order for civilization to hold together and not collapse.
 
user7480455
what was it a few years ago... that was killing people
 
user7480455
zeeka?
 
sars
 
user7480455
maybe hyper
 
7:08 PM
@007 I believe that there are some concepts we should stick with.
 
user7480455
but what you do when no one is looking is what you really are
 
user7480455
all true gents
 
user7480455
but you all... we all do things other of the site of others...
 
@007 That sounds a lot like some religious mumbo jumbo
 
civilization is a lie, even the cake is more real than "civilization"
 
7:09 PM
Civilization is a fun game
 
user7480455
we do these things because.... we can... we all have privacy and we don;t want others to see..
 
user7480455
it has nothing to do with the civil order
 
“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE A
 
user7480455
what is that from hyper
 
@Hypersapien Sean Carroll would like to say some things about poetic naturalism.
 
7:11 PM
I'm not a moralist, but modern art, for instance, I just can't understand it. The modern theater is based on demonstrating naked body and vulgar language. Does it add any artistic value? I don't think so. Yet, so many people admire those things just because it seems obscure and contradictory.
 
Hogfather. A book by the Discworld series by Terry Pratchett
 
@TimurSharapov What's a moralist?
 
user7480455
somethings are not meant to be understood Timur
 
user7480455
some people do things simply because they can
 
user7480455
pressure forces acceptance
 
7:12 PM
yes the human stupidity cant be understood...
 
@007 That's called rape, kids
 
user7480455
acceptance defines greatness
 
user7480455
wait what?
 
user7480455
rape ???
 
1 min ago, by 007
pressure forces acceptance
 
user7480455
7:13 PM
you just took a big leap with them white eyes you have kendall
 
user7480455
well that is just fact my firend
 
@KendallFrey I believe the word "moralist" has a disapproving aspect. Someone who is profoundly convinced that only his or her moral principles are the right ones.
 
user7480455
in this very room
 
user7480455
you pressure people to accept rules that don't not exist
 
user7480455
that is not rape
 
user7480455
7:14 PM
that is just power
 
user7480455
you have power that is sourced from noware
 
user7480455
much like art
 
user7480455
you have mastered the art of pressure and acceptance
 
user7480455
compliance is the willingness to accept
 
@TimurSharapov If they weren't convinced of that... then they would have different moral principles, wouldn't they?
 
user7480455
7:17 PM
we can break anything but we cannot fix everything
 
user7480455
the easiest is a man will
 
user7480455
the hardest is a mans willingness
 
@KendallFrey This is what acceptance is for. I might be really committed to my principles, yet there's always probability that I could be wrong. We all could be. You just stick with your point view and let others do the same without trying to change their mind or prove the existence of a single right opinion (ours)
 
user7480455
I learned that when I did a short stent as a jailer
 
@TimurSharapov But what if there is a single right opinion, and anyone who pretends not to share it is being objectively immoral?
 
7:21 PM
Does factual correctness have anything to do with morality?
 
Sure
 
Why?
 
user7480455
not at all Hyper
 
user7480455
most morality topics are based on lies
 
@Hypersapien Is it a fact that being shot through the heart will kill you?
 
7:22 PM
It's a high likelyhood
 
user7480455
it will not kill you kendall
 
user7480455
what will kill you is if they cant get bloold circ going
 
@KendallFrey Provide an example. Like killing people? Even killing people can be justified in some exceptional cases. Is that immoral? I don't know. Everything should be coupled with context.
 
@Hypersapien If being shot through the heart will kill you, and it's immoral to kill someone, then it's immoral to shoot someone through the heart.
 
user7480455
if you get shot in hospital with the best surgeons in the world stand there you make make it
 
7:24 PM
@TimurSharapov Sure
 
user7480455
its like some one said its all about prospective
 
I meant, can it be immoral to be factually incorrect about something?
 
user7480455
no hyper
 
@Hypersapien If someone's safety depends on your factual correctness, definitely
 
Is ignorance immoral? Sometimes it can do harm. An incompetent doctor has a lot to do with morality
 
user7480455
7:25 PM
what if his incorrectness saves his life
 
user7480455
should he sacrifice for the sake others
 
user7480455
he is not Christ after all
 
@Hypersapien about your question, you use WPF? or winforms?
 
@007 Is that really possible?
Except in cases of deliberate harm like suicide
 
user7480455
of course it is
 
7:26 PM
The word "correctness" sounds vague. What now is considered "right" might be proven to be wrong tomorrow.
 
@007 Show me
 
user7480455
you are not ready for that Kendall
 
@TimurSharapov Not really, if it's factually correct.
@007 You just can't show me
 
Facts are often revised.
 
user7480455
let me ask this
 
7:27 PM
@TimurSharapov I don't think that's quite accurate
Can you give an example?
 
user7480455
would you save my life if you could Kendall
 
Probably
 
:D
 
user7480455
why?
 
@Mr.Noob WPF
 
7:28 PM
Because I don't like when people die
It's called empathy
 
user7480455
even if I told you that I would kill you if you tired
 
maybe you can try to use Window_PreviewMouseUp on main window, and then use e.Source to check if the element that was clicked is not your text box
 
Then idk, depends on the situation
 
user7480455
you have just been shown
 
you will have to cast e.Source
 
7:29 PM
Calling the police sounds appropriate at that point, since you're clearly suicidal
 
user7480455
no
 
Call the Police, proceed to McDonalds
 
Threatening to kill me if I don't let you die isn't suicidal?
 
Or Tim Horton's if you're Canadian
 
user7480455
on the topic of suicide it boggles the mind why people care
 
user7480455
7:30 PM
I would let a man kill himself in a hearts beat
 
1 min ago, by Kendall Frey
It's called empathy
 
user7480455
if he wants to die and s tarts with self first... go for it mate
 
@hilli_micha One cannot proceed to Tim Horton's if one is already at Tim Horton's
 
user7480455
just do do a german wings and take everyone with you on side trip to the end
 
@KendallFrey Are you implying Canadians just all live at Tim Horton's? Fair enough, us burgers tend to live at McDonalds.
 
7:31 PM
@007 Not everyone is in their right mind. Some people don't succeed in killing themselves and go on to value their lives and regret trying.
 
user7480455
maybe hyper
 
For example, it had been long believed that our brain only operates at 10% (or even less) of its capacity. But then the advancements in neuroscience showed that the statement is wrong. I agree with you, I might be not accurate. I should have put it another way.
Sometimes what we believe to be a fact is not one.
 
There is such a thing as mental illness
 
user7480455
but that is your answer to the factual morality question
 
@TimurSharapov I wouldn't call that a fact
 
7:32 PM
Granted, not everyone who attempts suicide has a mental illness.
 
user7480455
it is not for me to judge the state of a mans mind
 
Okay, what is a fact then?
 
user7480455
he he or she wants to die let then die,,
 
Anything that isn't repeatably, independently, and accurately verified doesn't deserve to be called a fact.
 
user7480455
not true kendall
 
user7480455
7:33 PM
we have had this talk before lol
 
Letting a person kill themselves is a lot more permanent than saving their life.
 
user7480455
most of the things we accept as fact is none of those things you listed
 
@007 I don't accept them as fact
I may accept them, but not as fact
 
user7480455
yes you do
 
user7480455
interesting hyper
 
user7480455
7:35 PM
it is not my job to save lives...
 
@007 Didn't you just say that it's not up to you to judge the state of a man's mind?
 
user7480455
I did
 
IIRC, Aron Ra defines a fact as "a point of data that is undisputed or is indisputable in that it is objectively verifiable". I like that definition.
 
if you take for example Dissociative identity disorder, idk if its a disorder...
 
Isn't what @KendallFrey accepts as fact part of the state of his mind?
 
user7480455
7:35 PM
that is a good point
 
@Hypersapien My acceptance is part of my mind, if that's what you mean
 
@Hypersapien Well, I would assert that something being a fact is irrelevant to what Kendall thinks.
 
user7480455
but he said that facts have a property
 
Fact is fact, full stop, anything else is opinion.
 
user7480455
that we all accept
 
7:36 PM
@hilli_micha I would assert the same
 
user7480455
I challenge that,, not his state of mind
 
@007 It makes me think of one popular dilemma. Do you have the right to save lives by killing others? Or you should let it happen the natural way?
 
@007 I said no such thing
There are plenty of irrational people that deny facts
 
user7480455
you do timur
 
What's "natural" has no innate importance.
 
user7480455
7:36 PM
you save you own life
 
user7480455
let the other die if they must
 
@007 You're not a nice person
 
user7480455
I am not
 
user7480455
I am just a person
 
user7480455
7:37 PM
singular and that is all that matters
 
Being nice is overrated :))
 
For what its worth, my mother commited suicide, and everyone in her life couldn't be happier about it. Her children and her own mother wasn't upset in the slighest.
 
user7480455
because I can't not do for others if I can;t do for myself
 
BTW, I recommend Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape to y'all.
 
A day before we're supposed to put something in production a company we have to work with asks if we can change our image type.
 
user7480455
7:38 PM
wow hilli sorry to hear that... I hope my comments did not seem uncaring
 
@Mr.Noob e.Source?
 
I think Sam Harris has his head up his ass.
 
private void Window_PreviewMouseUp(object sender, MouseButtonEventArgs e)
 
@Nathvi Why?
 
@Nathvi He has some good ideas, but he goes way too far when he declares them "objective" morality.
 
7:40 PM
@007 Her choices my man, it was a grave that she dug herself. No need to be sorry about it, I just brought it up for perspective on the topic of suicide.
 
@Hypersapien, exactly. The whole objective thing just throws me.
Otherwise, he's ok.
 
user7480455
understood mate
 
Minus the article about "In Defense of Torture" he wrote in the HP.
I do like his quote about conservative religions.
 
@Nathvi What he means by "objective morality" is "that which increases the well-being of conscious creatures, and is independently verifiable."
 
user7480455
since we are chatting about gravy... whats your favorites flavors guys?
 
7:42 PM
I don't think he ever pretended to advocate fundamental morality
 
Lol, just more vague bs.
 
@Nathvi What's vague?
 
Hypersapien idk if its "good" solution but it can work...
 
well-being
That's something that is subjective.
 
I think I'm not nice either. I can't say that I have any interest in anyone except for my faimily. I do have a few friens I might occasionally share a beer with, but listening about their lives or thoughts seems boring and overall a waste of time. I also don't have the desire to share my feelings or thoughts with somebody else.
It seems like empathy is not one of my virtues
 
7:43 PM
@Nathvi He says that science (especially neuroscience) can give facts about well-being
 
@KendallFrey I know what he means. I just have a problem with him calling it objective.
 
Have you heard the comparison to health?
 
@KendallFrey, he isn't the only person making that claim. And I disagree with it.
 
Health is vague in the same sense as well-being, yet that doesn't stop us from saying some things are objectively unhealthy
 
@KendallFrey, no. I haven't heard of that.
 
7:44 PM
@Mr.Noob The problem is that the event handler never even gets called.
 
Hence why I recommended the book
 
user7480455
I am unhealthy... let me tell you
 
user7480455
mind body soul
 
@KendallFrey Yes, but we first have to decide that well-being is the point of morality. I'd say it is, but morality is something humans invented (granted, out of necessity) so it can't be objective.
 
It's funny how 10 off-topic messages in a row are unexpectedly followed by a C# related one :))
 
user7480455
7:46 PM
:)
 
10? Try 200
 
user7480455
Someone quick post some source codes
 
I don't need to buy a book or spend the time reading it to get someone's definition of well being. If it's not objective, it's just his opinion, and if it is objective, then it's a matter of finding empirical evidence to support a falsifiable hypothesis.
 
@Hypersapien He also addresses that by explaining the principle that everything that morality could be said to be about really just boils back down to well-being
 
Does his definition of well-being include a falsifiable hypothesis?
 
7:47 PM
Anything is moral if it makes you feel good?
 
user7480455
and those boy is the java room think they have the best off topic chats
 
How are we defining the difference between "objective" and "fundamental"?
 
user7480455
c# wins everytime
 
@TimurSharapov No one suggested that
 
@Hypersapien For me, "objective" means "independently verifiable" and "fundamental" means "not dependent on any other thing or concept"
 
7:48 PM
Interviewer: So why did you prefer C# to Java?
Me: Well, they have such great off-topic chatrooms!:)
 
@KendallFrey, Does his definition of well-being include a falsifiable hypothesis?
 
I don't think morality can ever be independently verifiable.
 
Agreed.
It's an arbitrary preference list.
 
I wouldn't call it arbitrary, either.
 
An arbitrary set of preferences.
 
7:49 PM
@Nathvi hang on, I'm looking it up for you lol
Many readers might wonder how can we base our values on something as difficult to define as “well-being”? It seems to me, however, that the concept of well-being is like the concept of physical health: it resists precise definition, and yet it is indispensable.18 In fact, the meanings of both terms seem likely to remain perpetually open to revision as we make progress in science.

Harris, Sam. The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (pp. 11-12). Free Press. Kindle Edition.
 
And this Sam thinks he is so smart?
 
I'm not sure how it would make sense to put a hypothesis in the definition
 
he got all the morals thing figured out?
 
@Mr.Noob He does have a PhD
 
@Mr.Noob He openly admits he has no interest in reading prior philosophical texts.
 
7:51 PM
Well-being in a Muslim country might mean throwing gay people off a building.
It was for the well-being of the community.
 
@Nathvi He talks a lot about Islam, and one of his points is that throwing someone off a building is objectively contrary to well-being.
 
Neil DeGrasse Tyson has a PhD in astronomy. That doesn't mean I'd trust his opinion on psychological matters.
 
It objectively violates his subjective preferences.
 
PhD in morals?
 
Same as everyone else.
 
7:52 PM
I don't think he said much about a group's well-being overriding an individual's, but I can try to guess what he'd say
 
All I need is a moral crisis before a go live.
 
@Nathvi The well-being of one person might be achieved at the expense of somebody else's.
 
Sam Harris' PhD is in cognitive neuroscience
 
Exactly. My well-being might be by eating you.
 
@Hypersapien event wont fire because in order to lose focus it has to move to another text input
 
7:53 PM
My well-being is procrastinating in the last 30 minutes of my work-day.
 
The fuck?
 
loooooooooool
 
Wait. No. I clicked on another text input and it didn't lose focus.
 
how can it be?
 
At the end of the day, I think it's just pontificating about how his subjective morality is objectively the best.
 
7:54 PM
Even if an Islamic community's overall well-being would be increased by the death of a gay man, that doesn't mean that the best possible world includes the death of the gay man. It's possible that even more well-being would be produced by the community learning to live in tolerance.
 
are you still talking about the LoseFocus() event?
Moral satisfaction isn't the same as "well being"
 
morality exists only on paper
 
@KendallFrey, that's the flaw in the assumption. That there is this shared idea of well-being by a community, when in reality, well-being is an arbitrary individual definition.
 
^^^
@Nathvi Which is the flaw?
 
Hypersapien yes about lostfocus
 
7:56 PM
"It's possible that even more well-being would be produced by the community learning to live in tolerance." well-being, as defined by who?
 
@Nathvi By scientific investigation
 
sigh.
 
@Mr.Noob Do you know anything about \MouseCapture?
 
omg people you don't understand shit... (except C# probably)
 
You can use science to answer scientific questions, or to test a falsifiable hypothesis. Not to say that my morality is objective.
 
7:57 PM
no I don't believe in mouse capture for tasks like that...
 
What are the criteria of well-being?
 
A muslim community's well-being is not threatened by a gay person not being killed.
 
Exactly
 
@Nathvi Is it a fact that one flavour of ice cream produces more happiness in Donald Trump's brain than another flavour?
Is happiness part of well-being?
 
well being do not exists.
 
7:58 PM
It depends on what you mean by fact.
 
Well, if the ice cream is wall flavored, I'm sure he would objectively love that flavor more.
 
If so, ice cream flavours can be scientifically linked to well-being.
 
@KendallFrey To a certain extent
 
@Hypersapien They might think differently.
@KendallFrey Or is well-being part of happiness? Which term is broader?
 
Someone else living their life as they see fit while not affecting you in any way is not a threat to your well being.
 
7:59 PM
@TimurSharapov Just like the criteria for health, it's not rigourously understood, but science can always improve the understanding.
 
@KendallFrey, that's to ambiguous to pass for science. If you wanted to ask the question, "does ice cream x produce more endorphins than ice cream Y" that would be better
 
@TimurSharapov well-being, I think by definition.
 
there is a lot of things that are just an illusion... like well being for example
 

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