« first day (1914 days earlier)      last day (3251 days later) » 

user47589
but then VS crashed
user47589
class ಠ_ಠ<A, B, C, D, E>
{
    class Y : ಠ_ಠ<Y, Y, Y, Y, Y>
    {
        Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y.Y y;
    }
}
ಠ_ಠ
@mikeTheLiar interesting.
19:01
ಠ_ಠ
If I have a `String.Empty` textbox, if I do:

                                    if (property.PropertyType.IsGenericType && property.PropertyType.GetGenericTypeDefinition() == typeof(Nullable<>))
                                        property.SetValue(model, Convert.ChangeType(controlType.Value, property.PropertyType.GetGenericArguments()[0]), null);
                                    else { property.SetValue(model, Convert.ChangeType(controlType.Value, property.PropertyType), null); }

It always throws a format error, can it not assign ""?
@Amy how okay is it to do db first with EF? I was watching a pluralsight video with julie lerman, and she mentioned something about how its like a one shot deal?
user47589
how okay is it? dunno, its just a tool in the toolbox. use it for the right jobs.
@Michael we do db-first. Dunno what she means about a one-shot deal
user47589
we have a mixture of dbfirst and codefirst here
19:04
@mikeTheLiar Okay, so if you do DB first, It creates the classes for you.. but then cant just start tinkering with the classes, or can you?
Yeah. One shot. In the head. You won't feel a thing.
*And that's how we code with db first*
Oh is that what you mean? Sorry, we write the classes ourselves and just bind them to a table/view.
We don't generate the classes from the database but we do design the tables first typically
@Amy do you know?
@mikeTheLiar with EF?
user47589
i'm not sure.
@Michael there is no more db first in EF7 though, so use it but make sure you're still comfortable with code first.
19:07
@CuddleBunny That why I was curious about it, i didnt know if it was dying for a reason? very limited or something
@Michael right. We use EF as a CRUD layer but we create the tables/classes by hand
You can tinker with the classes, but if you run the generator again it will overwrite them
So maybe that's not really db-first
@Michael the reason being that asp.net 5 is a different beast than previous iterations
it is meant to be less dependent on Visual Studio as a tool
easy solution
19:07
@mikeTheLiar so how does EF get involved, If you write the classes and the tables
use code first from database
easier that way
@Failsafe so how does that work?
You have an initial DB, It generates classes, and then you modify the classes to restructure the DB?
yea pretty much
@Michael we tell EF how to map our classes to tables.
user47589
that's how we do it.
19:09
if you have existing data it's the best/easiest route to go
Yeah, I agree with @Failsafe
user47589
we have a few very large vendor apps we need to query. its way easier to do with db first or dapper
OTOH our existing database is pretty fucked - we're slowly un-fucking it
@Failsafe we dont have existing data. We just can get EF to generate the DB the way we want it with code first
Actually, that applies to pretty much the entire application now that I think about it
19:10
@mikeTheLiar where do you tell EF to map?
OnModelCreating
user47589
the project i'm working on right now is entirely code first.
Why is JSON replacing everything?
user47589
what is JSON replacing?
because JSON is light, cheap, and ubiquitous
19:11
By "everything" do you mean XML and CSV? Because they suck.
@MoonOwl22 probably a corollary to Atwood's law
because they suck
by they i mean everything
Don't get the XML hate
Well, I take that back. XML doesn't suck. It's widely misused.
user47589
its XSLT that truly sucks
19:12
XML has its uses just like SQL
sql is so 2015
@Michael so we have something like MyConext : DbContext which has properties that look like DbSet<OurEntity>
user47589
yes it does, and in those cases XML won't be replaced.
I only use JSON because JS has a method JSON.stringify but not a method XML.stringify and I'm lazy.
@Amy I like XSLT. Sure, MS should get off their arses and support XSLT 2.0
19:13
Then we override the OnModelCreating method and tell the model builder what tables those entities use
user47589
shivers
TIL Tom W is a fucking lunatic
user47589
i'll never go back to XSLT. you can't make me.
@mikeTheLiar I see, im googling that now
I feel sad
19:15
Priority 1 Ticket INC 000000000 : application is slow please fix
Once upon a time, XML was the ideal data exchange format
thanks users
And you had lots of SQL to XML to XML parsers
Now everything is JSON
@Failsafe serves you right for writing a slow application
literally 3ms load time
user47589
19:16
heh, i had a ticket waiting for me this morning "i'm attaching an email i sent earlier". the ticket doesn't have any attachments.
for me
"Works on my machine"
@Failsafe did you try downloading more RAM?
im just gonna go ahead and close this ticket
@Failsafe - "Fixed. You're welcome."
19:17
@SpencerRuport i attached a screenshot of my load time too
lol
nice. :D
The application isn't slow, it just learns differently
Internet or intranet?
intra
its an internal app
btw it is slow
its been slow for 15 years
because the app is 15 fucking years old
i couldn't give less fucks
user47589
there are plenty of smart 15yos out there. you just have a faulty 15yo.
19:18
"Requires complete rewrite" assign ticket to manager
yea it was raised by coldfusion parents
I have no idea what im doing. most stressful feeling at work
so it's inherently retarded
So Atwood's Law is the reason why JavaScript Object Notation became popular?
@TomW what if you are the manager
19:20
@SpencerRuport I did say that... but he didn't even know what a graph was :/
@Failsafe there's always a bigger manager]
I don't think I can hire someone who doesn't know what a graph is...
@TomW lol
@MoonOwl22 Atwood's corollary - anything that can be represented in JSON, eventually will be represented in JSON
I'm fine if they don't know the difference between Kruskal's and Prim's and N* spanning trees, but if they just don't know what a graph is, that's pretty bad...
19:21
@Codeman - Like not at all? Did he ask clarifying questions?
@Codeman What about wangs algorithm
Why do we study graph theory anyway?
user47589
i dont think i've ever heard of kruskal and prim
We did Kruskal and Prim's MST algorithms in first term last year
@MoonOwl22 You're still in school?
19:22
These are the parts of CS that you miss when you drop out of community college
it all makes sense now
If programming knowledge is a house, and a good programmer's house must be built on a strong foundation, mine is built on bags of leaves and sand
(Disclaimer - I dropped out of community college)
user47589
ah, you used Java
19:23
@TomW don't forget the sinkhole in your basement
Does the difference between the two algorithms matter?
i don't bother to remember theories that i can google and pops up in first result, especially when they are with some russian or german names
I remember writing an essay on the difference between the two
And then having to do a presentation on them in one of the other classes
guys, if i'm deploying to remote web server (remote server has IIS), are the wwwroot paths the same? How does it get access to my local published contents?
99% of the stuff i learned in school was a complete waste of time
19:24
It was fun until all of a sudden we never talked about them
including the math
that's just me though
Math is important
user47589
my CS program was worthless.
i've never had to utilize hard math
ever
Define hard math
Amy why do you say so?
19:25
Fuck it, I'm just going to go learn WordPress and make shitty websites for local businesses
user47589
math that's hard
anything above discrete algebra
user47589
because it was worthless.
not including statistics and probability
So you consider geometry useless?
That is not math
That is stats
and probability
19:25
and be honest, i still don't know how to pronounce "Dijkstra"
user47589
what? statistics isn't math?
lol stats and prob are DEFINITELY math
Well, that is what we were told by the stats lecturer
user47589
dick-strah
He said stats is a different path
19:26
What is the probability that statistics are math?
user47589
stats is the dark side
He said it applies mathematics
@SpencerRuport I said "can you describe what a tree and a graph is and what is different about them" and he had no idea what a graph was
n /(n-k) is math
that is an equation
that involves pemdas
Without stats, we wouldn't have data science
19:27
its math
Math is fun
I mean... I don't expect someone to be able to write specific algorithms necessarily, but if they don't even know what a graph is, that is troublesome
@Codeman I'd fail that question until about five minutes ago when I started reading the wikipedia page
@mikeTheLiar well, you should read more wikipedia pages before interviewing here then :P
If you can't answer that you will fail CS
19:28
@Failsafe schools are out of touch with reality today
And you will be kicked out
I mean... I wrote a trie from scratch on a whiteboard in 30 minutes
but they do tech some basic fundamentals
@Wardy eh
Schools do teach this stuff in first year
In first semester
In first term
So there is no excuse
I know that schools these days are more concerned with getting people into graduate programmes as it gets them funding and sponsership
19:29
@SpencerRuport I spoke to my manager, I initially recommended but I think I need to raise my bar
@Amy stats are mostly meaningless ... too open to incorrectness
relies on you asking the right question
but humans don't think logically
@Wardy Which is why we have a data science :)
they think emotionally
user47589
we are less rational than we tell ourselves.
but humans sometimes don't think logically
19:30
@Wardy we do both
So who's bought powerball tickets?
Humans are very rational beings
Adam Smith proved this
that's why there are 2 hemispheres of the brain*
@mikeTheLiar the drawings tomorrow
> Humans are very rational beings
Citation needed
@Wardy You must hate approximation math then
19:31
@Failsafe and how rational a decision was it to buy tickets
@mikeTheLiar Grab any first year microeconomics textbook
for example: I recall my boss saying he read some stats that heathrow was "the unsafest airport in the UK to fly from because 3 incidents were recorded"
@MoonOwl22 what year are you?
in the same time period some other small airport near bristol had only 1 incident
@Failsafe Second
19:32
but if you look at the stats from another point of view
heathorw had 1 million flights in that time period this other airport only had like 100
so which is safest now?
people in general use stats to prove the point they are trying to make by presenting the data that gives that impression
government does this all the time (to justify shitty spending plans)
@Codeman - That's an odd gap but I dunno if I would DQ someone over it. I go by "Can I use this person?" Someone could know everything there is to know about graph theory and that might be fantastic... 10% of the time? Maybe? If someone is an excellent debugger I can use them 90%+ of the time.
It is hard to say which one is safer but it is certainly easier to say so when you wait for the other airport to have 1 million flights
Because that 1 flight might be the 1 in a million
Making it safer
@SpencerRuport it depends on the application being written
@MoonOwl22 thats my point
Not really
19:34
@SpencerRuport if this was a junior person, I'd agree. But the first line on their resume is "11+ years of experience"
most of stats is not about like for like
its about asking a targetted question that gives the impression of the answer you want
if you've been programming for 11 years and you've never run into a graph problem, you're probably just copy pasting everything
rather than actually getting to the truth of a problem
@Codeman I have 7 and i still do that
i dont see the problem here
I HATE trivia questions. But there are some extremely basic ones that I expect someone at a senior level to know
19:35
The reason why we do stats is so that we can make ads as pricey as we can
@Failsafe right - but you can do code apart from copy pasting right?
user47589
i've never written a line of code in my life and dont plan to start now.
@Codeman - Maybe. I know what graphs are but I'd struggle to think of a time I've used one to solve a problem.
@Amy I hate liars
@SpencerRuport any multi-step form uses a graph
user47589
19:35
good, me too!
@Codeman wait im supposed to be writing it myself?
have you ever implemented a multi-step form?
form as in <form />
user47589
like a wizard?
idk, I was ready to bring him in but my lead said not knowing a graph was a red flag, and he's who I'm hiring for :)
19:36
@Codeman - A multi step form as in an online application over several pages?
@Codeman whats a form? i just post fieldsets to servers with ajax ... that's a good plan right?
@Wardy yea same
i just do form action="sendallinputstojavascript();"
@SpencerRuport yeah, anything with a workflow can be seen as a graph
and then just shit out raw data
I used to work for an email marketing company ... we sent about 1 million emails an hour
they were links to online surveys for free stuff
basically spam mostly
but opt in spam ( you had to subscribe in the UK at least)
19:37
@Codeman I've never heard a multi step form referred to as a graph
in all honesty
our Us counter parts would just buy data and subscribe it to random stuff
@Failsafe wtf ... that's so 10 years ago
@Failsafe it's a state machine. A state machine is a type of graph
at least use mvvm or something
@Codeman you mean a workflow / diagram?
a workflow is a type of graph
@Codeman what? that's a graph? i thought workflow is just a very small set of graph
19:39
@Codeman No i get that, i'm just saying if you told me to write you a graph i wouldn't know what you were talking about
rather, a workflow can be expressed as a graph
if you told me to write a FSA for a = b i could do that
@Codeman very loosely but i accept your premise (ish)
@Codeman - True, but you don't have to draw it out.
@Failsafe I didn't ask him to write a graph, I said "can you explain what a graph is"
I would have been fine with it if he said "you use them for workflows and such"
19:40
interesting
@Codeman it depends on context
my bar for a senior engineer is indeed "you must know CS101 concepts"
imo that's impossible to answer without more information
@Wardy how is it impossible to answer?
@Codeman that is not my definition of a graph
i would never think about graphs like that at first
19:40
the term graph means different things in different contexts
i would've failed that test
"what is a graph?"

"a graph is a network of nodes and edges that is used for things like workflows, state machines, and tenancy"
a diagram showing the relation between variable quantities, typically of two variables, each measured along one of a pair of axes at right angles.
@Wardy it has a very specific computer science meaning
most people think of graphs as like ... line charts or something
19:41
@Wardy NO!
@Codeman so basically in your opinion you can only be a senior dev if you have a CS degree?
@Codeman - Eh. I think that's a little overly simplistic. Not that I don't see your point but I'm just more interested in what people can do, not what they can describe using a certain nomenclature.
@Codeman yea but you can't say to someone "what is a graph" without context
@Failsafe in a software engineer interview, I ask "what is a graph?" and you wouldn't have an idea of the context?
I've always wondered something... What do people think when they hear the term "graph database"
19:42
even so - you could ask "in what context?" and I'd say "the computer science construct of a graph"
@Codeman I wouldn't
@Codeman then i would know
@Codeman then your question should be "what context can be described as a graph"
@Codeman I am saying there are multiple contexts and it doesn't matter what type of interview it is
user47589
a graph has edges and vertices, each edge can be directional or unidirectional and can be weighted
if you asked me what a graph is i would say in terms of...
19:43
@Failsafe its a bad question imo
it's a very loose question
It's not a loose question
your q & a is like:
1. what is a ship?
2. the one you use to carry oils from middle east to US
@Failsafe thats why its bad
subjective at best
The context is implied by the comparison to a tree
19:44
@Codeman - I went through 10 years of development working on software architecture and solving problems before I even started learning proper nomenclature. And initially only because I realized it negatively impacted people's impression of my abilities.
@SpencerRuport i completely agree ... I too have seen this
@MoonOwl22 what tree
I actually didn't get a job once because I was asked the definition of aCS degree term I had never heard of
@Failsafe If you read his full question it was asking for the difference between a tree and a graph
My ability was judged because i didn't what a term meant
19:45
@MoonOwl22 :(
not because i couldn't write code
So I tend to think a lot of this stuff is academic pedantry.
oh
I thought it was a 0 context question
CS terms can be picked up along the way ... they are basically unimportant
concepts however
very important
understanding of tech
languages
What other term would you use to describe a graph besides 'network'
I doubt it's about a CS degree since this stuff is always on BBC whenever they interview someone
user47589
19:47
"thing"
This is stuff you'll eventually come across when you read documentation
Web 2.0 is mostly about the graph
>web 2.0
Based off of this conversation I feel like I've been fundamentally missing something over the last few years
if you are referring to anything with a "profile" then yes
your stack echange network profile is a graph
Like, I guess all of my employers are just hiring me to fulfill some sort of affirmative action but hiring mentally deficient developers
19:49
mikeTheLiar, it's not much
ME GOOD CODER
mikeTheLiar, what matters is that you solve the problem
I guess that's the break down. I'm not a computer scientist
@mikeTheLiar my brother has to work with a guy who has asoergers
I'm a developer.
19:49
this is such a rediculous question lol
@juanvan we have ass paninis here
and is a Gov job
@juanvan i just lol'd at my desk
Is anyone familiar with ExpandoObject()?
@JoJo yea
19:50
that OObject
i just used it to test something
I mean technically my title is "Software Engineer" but fundamentally I just write software to solve a business problem
to make a point ...
@mikeTheLiar that's everyone
Are we talking about any of these ...
19:50
everyone here
What is ExpandoObject most useful for? Objects with dynamic or unlimited properties?
and i bet there's more out there
I mean, it's great and all if you know how to write a binary tree but if that's your approach to solving a problem then you can GTFO
@JoJo yes
19:51
Or a quick sort or whatever
technically a scene is a type of graph, so is BSP as a concept
it's the VB version of dynamic
@mikeTheLiar Unless you're going to be working on a compiler team
in c# you do not need an expando object
lol the term graph without context is meaningless
19:52
@Failsafe thanks
I mean, if you need to sort a collection and you do anything other than collection.Sort() you just failed the test
@Wardy But there was context given
@MoonOwl22 shudders
@MoonOwl22 initially it was just "the interview is the context"
that's not enough
@Wardy And he's right
19:53
who was @mikeTheLiar talking to?
@Codeman - Were you the one who recommended I read blindsight?
@JoJo at this point myself I think. I'm just ranting about the difference between CS and practical software development
@JoJo ive used it for dynamic results that i spit out as a json result on a OData endpoint before
@mikeTheLiar kk
great for things like ... I wrote an endpoint to return metadata about types
@mikeTheLiar whats wrong with using orderby?
that would sort the collection
19:55
@Wardy nothing, it's an example. What I meant was as opposed to writing your own sort function
@mikeTheLiar This is was the case basically
106
Q: Why are data structures so important in interviews?

Vamsi EmaniI must confess that I was not so strong in data structures when I graduated out of college. Throughout the campus placements during my graduation, I've witnessed that most of the biggie tech companies like Amazon, Microsoft etc focused mainly on data structures. It appears as if data structures i...

@Wardy It doesn't, actually - it returns a new sorted collection :)
yay github down
@ReedCopsey What is your take on this subject of interest?
@Failsafe Why would you say that? ExpandoObject isn't a VB thing
19:56
@MoonOwl22 is a Relational Database considered a "data structure"?
@ReedCopsey if the objective is to get a sorted collection without specifying that it must not be a new one then that would be ok in my book
@MoonOwl22 which subject?
I guess all I'm saying is that I do know a decent amount about data structures. Apparently I missed the lecture on graphs and that just cost somebody a job
@SpencerRuport nah, I'm not sure what that is
@ReedCopsey What do you mean it's not a vb thing
19:57
@ReedCopsey also technically ... you could be wrong
dependson the context
I can tell you - if you can't describe what a graph/tree/heap is, you're probably not going to get a job at a top company like MSFT or GOOG or FB
@Codeman - It's a book. Someone here recommended it but I can't remember who. It's really good.
linqs orderby could be applied to a dbset in EF for example
I am getting a 302 status code after making a post request through ajax on a method
@JoJo No but it employs certain data structures
19:58
the sorting is translated to sql by ef so there's no copies of collections
@Failsafe ExpandoObject is used in C# just as much (maybe more) than in VB
@Codeman seems reasonable i spose
@Wardy Well, no OrderBy in the framework mutates the existing collection
all 3 asked together specify context at least
@Wardy which, again, doesn't change the dbset - it just changes the query results
19:59
@ReedCopsey would you hire someone who couldn't describe what a graph is?
@ReedCopsey Do you think not knowing what a graph is for a senior software developer with 11 years of experience is something concerning in an interview?
@Codeman sure
I wouldn't bother asking
@ReedCopsey I was saying that in vb there is no keyword dynamic so using expando is relatively the same experience as using a dynamic keyword
@ReedCopsey the dbset isn't a collection ... its a reference to a query of sorts
even if your team uses graph structures extensively?

« first day (1914 days earlier)      last day (3251 days later) »