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20:25
@AndrasDeak That's also very true, though. SO's structural incentives are wrong: it provides major positive incentives for bad behavior (experienced users who knowingly answer dupes, day-in, day-out, fgitw), and no incentives for good behavior (tagging, retitling, closing-as-dupe blatant dupe questions, or providing 'Related' links on multipart questions, some of whose parts are dupes/near-dupes). How broken do you see that, and do you see SO ever fixing it?
Very, and no.
@AndrasDeak Hmm, but why is SO so hell-bent on not fixing their site's structural incentive problems, and riding the 'welcoming' vehicle off a cliff? Who here thinks it's time to collectively author a Medium post "Why the SO tag is broken and why SO is structurally unsuited to fixing it - signed, the Python Community on SO"?
Probably you and some of the other pandas people, and you'd have coldspeed but he's taking a break from here. You can find him elsewhere in chat.
SO doesn't care about the quality of the site, they care about revenue and public perception which drives investments which is again revenue.
well, "doesn't care" is a stretch, but that's not their main motivator
@AndrasDeak I already found him earlier. But what about the rest of you: if you think pandas should self-evidently be ignored, does that have fixable issues? or just not generally interested in pandas tag/ data science? I'm not getting a clear consensus from other people here of why.
see also jlericson.com/2018/10/24/lost_trust.html if I haven't linked Jon's blog post yet
> What’s more, the idealized state of users and developers working hand-in-hand to build the sites was more smoke-and-mirrors than reality.
> As a semi-outsider, I observed two ways that changes got made:

1. As a result of major initiatives originated by management.
2. As the result of an employee rallying support for their idea (and often doing the bulk of the work themselves).
in short whenever something happened for the community it was mostly coincidence, because some dev wanted that too
20:43
SO has turned into Windows: Once a great pioneer, now only still alive because it was once good
Python docs can be downloaded as PDF here docs.python.org/3.9/download.html
@AndrasDeak That post ("SO has three sources of revenue: ads, job placement, and (since 3017) paid private Enterprise Q&A) and the summary comment by Mark C is good:
The Library documentation is over 2000 pages
Does anyone know if I can buy this in a printed form?
Disagree with the analogy. The good bits still survive, it's just keeping on top of the crap now
@OregonTrail docs for 3.9?
bit early for printing that ;)
20:47
yeah the stdlib docs specifically
3.8 is fine
Why do you need to print the lot?
I want to read it while camping
also I tend to remember things by page number
second editions must be a pain for you
a chance to read it again
the typesetting of these pdfs is quite good
code is rarely broken across pages
I don't think you can buy it, no
20:51
if you can get it printed somewhere, 3.7.3 is the newest release so anything newer is probably subject to change still
3.8 comes late October
ok, I'll guess I'll print one section at a time
Could you not read it online?
how didn't they think of that :P
20:55
kindle perhaps?
kindle doesn't have well-defined page numbers
and that probably defeats the purpose of the "quite good typesetting"
@AndrasDeak Sure, but print off 2k pages? There has to be a better way
[summary comment by Mark C on Jon Ericon's blog](https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/01/31/stack-exchange-2017-review/#comment-8534)
> The year [2017] itself did not present a problem. StackOverflow missed their mark on several key initiatives [Doc.SE, et al., data science, mktg], planned poorly, appeared to have hired aggressively towards sectors of business that did not yield considerable revenue [Doc.SE], and was apparently late to the game to recognize another market [Enterprise Q&A].
well, I'm working within the premise of the question
(Andras how can I format the quote right?)
20:59
@smci what makes you think I couldn't find the comment on your first link?
Messages can only be full quote, not quote + something else. And linebreaks kill URL markdown.
@AndrasDeak Again, bad assumption. I'm posting the quote for the benefit of other readers here, because it's superb, accurate and super-concise - the sort of thing we'd never see from SO management themselves. I'd never seen that blog post and I never knew the backstory of why SO mgt kept pushing a money-losing Doc.SE while their userbase was screaming out for ($$) Enterprise Q&A... then finally laid off 20% of the crew.
@AndrasDeak Ok. Must a separate line. How would I format a quote? (Is it just '> '?)
Yup, just that. And you can always practice in the sandbox.
directed replies also break quotes if I recall correctly
@AndrasDeak Yes, I had already just posted several unsuccessful tries in sandbox. Linebreaks killed my formatting.
So what's the TL;DR on SO in 2018? and 2019 so far?
21:10
I think I have answered what was asked in the question stackoverflow.com/questions/56727550/… but the answer which got upvotes answers differently
don't overthink votes
Even if you get downvotes doesn't necessarily mean your answer is wrong. Don't fret it.
Okay..! I thought I was missing something
Will note it as a tip..! Thanks
you don't have any downvotes?
technical issues usually reveal themselves in comments sooner or later
No i don't have downvotes
21:15
I'm not sure why I was originally tagged but I should be clear that I'm just a layman in this room and I'm not really any kind of authority outside of it either. I can't really comment on the answers there
Actually, I tagged you just to tell you "Hi"
Sorry, If that voilates any group rules
> @Andras @roganjosh can you please check this question stackoverflow.com/questions/56727550/…
@0xPrateek that ^ was your middle message
pinging people with problems you haven't discussed with them before is like stopping a stranger in the street and grabbing their coat while you talk to them about something
7
we might also have something in the rules themselves but it's also just common courtesy
Sir, please point to that "Hi" as well
okay my bad
yes, that was the first message
> Hello all,
@DeveshKumarSingh: suggest you don't make edits like that, even if the question was about to be locked/deleted. If I didn't know you I'd think it was spam/junk post and not go digging on the revision history.
21:30
for what it's worth he did that post deletion I think
@cs95 Thanks all for teaching me np.ogrid. Why on earth do they use bizarre language like 'open (i.e. not fleshed out)' instead of standard terms like 'sparse' and 'non-sparse'/'dense'? See also this about np meshgrid
meh
you probably won't like the NEP suggesting oindex/vindex :P
@smci what's the "see also" about?
You mean the sparse keyword?
@AndrasDeak I'm idly wondering why the numpy community use such bizarre non-standard language to discuss 'sparseness', since it contributes in part to confusion about what their commands do. (That'll also defeat search engines, similarity queries, comparisons to other packages, etc.) And that 'see also' question is about why meshgrid's name doesn't connote that it does a 2D Cartesian expansion of combinations of the two input indices (instead of simply calling it expandgrid or whatevs).
I'm not so certain sparseness is the right term here. These are not sparse arrays, these are unbroadcast arrays if anything.
And meshgrid definitely got its name from matlab's meshgrid. mathworks.com/help/matlab/ref/meshgrid.html
The answerer knows this well (he's a well-known MATLAB expert on SO), but the question wasn't why it's called that, instead it was what it does.
And then mgrid surely got its name from meshgrid. And then ogrid was probably named vis-a-vis that.
"spanning arrays" might be the best term perhaps
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