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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

00:01
It's not an itertool product ;)
fair point =)
I can't help with your actual problem though, sorry
and rbrb
rbrb
i think i found the right set of things to google though after formulating the question
00:17
quick question
does flask reserve the /debug route?
I keep getting cannot GET /debug everytime I try to define a /debug route
@JoshMenzel AFAIK, it does not reserve routes automatically; I have one running right now (see my earlier question) and trying /debug returns a 404
And I know I've not defined such a route anywhere.
I have it defined in my app.py
and it says cannot GET /debug
simply returns "normal" as a string just to see that it's executing
if I do /ddebug
then it's fine
When you say it cannot GET, what HTTP Response are you getting?
The flask message
Then you're getting "200 OK" when you check for your /debug route?
hi guys i need a little help with tkinter please
@JoshMenzel Your 'quick question' is lacking info. You have a debugging issue. Did you use the debugger?
how do i get the name and the path of a selected file in fileDialog before i hit open/cancel ?
what do you mean lacking info?
I have an app route defined as /debug in the flask app
I go to <ip>/debug
and flask gives the error in the browser Cannot GET /debug
00:23
@JoshMenzel You clearly have more logic there than a simple return 'normal'. Remove everything from it except the 'return "normal"' statement to make sure the route is actually correct.
If you get the "normal" string when trying to access your /debug route, then your problem is not with the route.
It's with the logic you have in it, which is different.
also
no errors in the console
and even with just return normal as you say
still yields Cannot GET /debug from flask
So, you have code that looks like this below and your route does not work?:

@app.route('/debug', methods=['GET'])
def ddebug():
return 'normal'
What's in the server log?
nada
listening on 127.0.0.1:5000
00:27
You must have something in the server log if your local flask server is running and receiving the request and responding to you.
Go to the terminal where you entered your 'flask run' command; the output there is your server log.
Notice the 'GET /debug' close to the bottom, returning HTTP-404 (Not Found)
That's what you should get in your log when you actually reach your server. If you're not getting that, then you're not really communicating with your server.
A simple command such as: curl -X GET localhost:5000/debug should be able to hit your server if it's running.
then wehere is the cannot GET /debug coming from?
(Note that I'm in GNU+Linux, so that's not a Windows command)
Whatever client application you're trying to use must be the one complaining that it can't communicate with the server at all, so it fails to 'GET /debug'.
Check for exit codes returned by your client application trying to hit the server
And then check documentation for what they mean.
It's it's decent, there should be an exit code stating that it couldn't establish a connection or something else more specific, if the error is different.
It's just google chrome
I've got my flask app on my ubuntu box
nginx proxy reverse to 127.0.0.1:5000
chrome on windows -> http://<ip>/debug
00:37
That's your issue.
127.0.0.1 is an IPv4 address that points to localhost. You cannot access that address from a remote system; only locally on the system itself.
I know, nginx is on the flask box
Well, I think your issue is deeper than what you thought. Perhaps you should remove the nginx reverse proxy to see if your app is reachable at all (you can launch it as: flask run 0.0.0.0:5000)
So that it accepts connections from any remote IP. (Note that I'm assuming your PC is not accessible to the wider internet)
I must continue working on a few things, so I can't /debug much more for you (pun intended). You should have enough now to figure out the rest, IMHO.
gl
another code-philosophy question: if i'm building a django project where all my apps have separate functions (i.e. - each app does its own job well), but they share lots of things (e.g. - i might have a "car" object, but a "build" app that builds cars and a "drive" app that drives them)
and i don't plan on releasing any of this in such a way that people would want to use one app but no the other
... what's the point of having separate apps?
why not just have a main folder—and if i want to split up views/models/etc. just put different folders within the main folder w/ their own views, models, etc.
00:59
"what's the point of having separate apps?" Keeping your sanity. It's the same reason why you don't write all the code for a program in a single function; you break it down into logical components to keep your mental sanity, allow your code to be understandable/maintainable, and to avoid wishing that you had a time machine to go back in time and murder your past self for not having done better at organizing the code and causing misery to your future self.
Besides, others who need to work with your code will thank you.
well—that answers the question "what's the point of organizing your code well?" i mean, literally, what's the point of having separate apps (like, specifically, there seems to be a big emphasis on apps and a particular django-default structure)
This is especially true if you're working on non-trivial systems. Django does not expect its recommended practices to be as useful if you're dealing with trivial applications. If your application grows to a non-trivial size, you will begin to appreciate the point of grouping things into logical components. A django app is a logical component of your larger project.
Several years ago I worked on a Django-based project that had inventory, orders, and more things. There was an inventory app, an orders app, and so on. The orders app had a dependency on the inventory app, of course, and that's not a problem, but they were separate.
i might have a structure that looks like:

project
----templates
----tests
----main
--------migrations
--------models
------------cars.py (this is where the car model is defined)
--------build_car
-------------views
-------------forms
--------drive_car
-------------views
-------------forms
It keeps things manageable and maintainable.
well, right. but, again, you're answering the question of "why should i organize my code well?" :p
so, for example, why is one at a disadvantage with the above structure, as opposed to django's default structure?
01:05
Because your question literally was, and I quote: "what's the point of having separate apps?"
So, yeah, that's what I'm going to answer.
"why is one at a disadvantage"? Did you mean "what"?
yes. but the implication was "what's the point of having specifically separate apps?" you're answering a much more general question. i know why one should organize their code well. i'm asking, moreso, why is django's default app-structure more advantageous than, say, the above structure?
It's always a trade-off. Engineering is about trade-offs. One negative could be that if your apps are trivial, then it might appear "over-engineered" (until they become non-trivial, if they ever do)
i'm asking specifically about django apps, not just general separate-your-code logic (unless you're saying that the only reason apps are useful is because it follows a separate-your-code logic, which is kind of what i'm leaning towards :l )
Adding the word "specifically" doesn't change anything, IMHO. It's redundant. In django, every app is, by definition, separate.
I was using general-case code logic as an analogy that you should be able to extrapolate to your specific question...
... because the underlying reasoning is the same
ah, dude, i think you're misunderstanding me here. let me try to rephrase:

Let's say we have two ways of structuring code which _both_ do a good job of separating things out so that they're easily maintained and well put together
why would one choose django's default app structure over the other way of structuring code?
01:08
It wasn't nginx's fault at all
it IS flask
the route in flask must end with /
/debug != /debug/
apparently
which is kind of lame and doesn't explain why the other routes worked fine
in fact it looks to me that it'd be easier to just have a single migrations folder so that apps which depend on one another can't get into weird migration loops (in case they're both updated simultaneously, and one model in one app depends on another model in another app)
@AmagicalFishy Ok, I get what you mean now. If both do a good job on the specific criteria you're using, then there's no advantage or disadvantage for any of the two, b/c both are doing good. It would, I think, boil down to personal preference, though in that case, I'd look at different criteria to see what other pros/cons you can find. The django project structure is, after all, only a recommendation. Personally, I'd stick with the recommendations if you're starting out.
OTOH, if you already have enough experience to know better (gotchas, caveats, etc), then why not change it, if you know the consequences of the change?
aaah, ok, cool. tyvm :D i've been using django for a little while—but always felt cleaner w/ a slightly tweaked structure. i was just making sure that there wasn't some huge thing i'd be getting screwed on by tweaking the structure
@JoshMenzel Ah yes, that has gotten me too. It's just that you had said your route was '/debug' and not '/debug/', and you said you were GETting '/debug', so I didn't think that was the problem
 
3 hours later…
04:47
Catching up, interesting. A fellow implementing my path dispatch protocol in JS and I were recently discussing certain test cases. Issuing automatic permanent redirects for collections missing trailing slashes to the URI with trailing slash, and for resources the inverse.
(In the case of "object dispatch", collection being an instance of a class, a resource being a method or attribute thereof.)
Sometimes it's hard to decide between "errors should never pass silently" and "practicality beats purity".
05:14
cbg
 
3 hours later…
08:10
what's your approach for saying "this method is used internally, don't worry about this when reading the code to understand how to use this class"?
08:28
def _internal_stuff(...):
   """There isn't even a docstring"""
That example might be confusing, what I'm trying to say is that non-internal methods have a docstring, and internal ones don't
some kind of indication would probably help more than none at all
in the absence of doc strings, one would normally end up processing the function even more carefully than one that had doc strings, before realising it was meant to be ignored, unless the expectation is set in advance
i guess you can always put such a comment at the top of the function
# internal
def stuff(...):
   ...
like this?
it sounds like the most reasonable to me
I don't like the _prefix convention. These are still useful functions, which are going to be called from a class that is subject to plenty of change
but if it's actually THE convention, might as well. But is it?
@ALollz I answered it, also fixed up the title to be clearer. Since the reopen, I can't see which targets were suggested as dupes, but I'm not aware it's a dupe.
@towc I use it that way, because I have seen it in some python packages and the core lib
Also, if you build documentation for your project with sphinx, methods with an underscore will be skipped automatically, which is nice.
08:42
Also, I found out df.groupby(..., sort=False) is good for performance whenever you don't want a sort by default.
btw, I don't think the underscore means they are not useful, just that they are private/internal/not documented/not reliable for call from the outside
maybe I have a pretty specific sub-case then. This is not something that is going to be public, it's meant to be a simple script for testing something, and I might as well make it readable
Then a simple comment is probably best
@Arne the way I see it, it's a hurdle. I'll want not to use it because the code looks less nice, and ._ is not a series of characters I find easy to type
I don't want to discourage people from using these methods
just "well, don't worry about it, if you're just trying to figure out how to normally use this class"
yah, fair enough. The undrescore stuff is geared more towards distribution scenarios. will you just add that particular comment then?
"don't worry and carry on"?
08:47
I guess. I was hoping there was going to be an existing convention I could use, that fits my preferences (yes, it sounds silly when said out loud)
Can't know until you try =)
09:54
@towc you could mention something about its being internal in the docstring
my immediate reaction is "docstrings are slow to add/read, for the developer"
and if anything, I'd expect non-internal methods to have docstrings
shouldn't it be more about what others who read your code expect?
2 hours ago, by towc
what's your approach for saying "this method is used internally, don't worry about this when reading the code to understand how to use this class"?
people "reading the code" will look at your docstring first
there are about a dozen of those methods. And I was more interested in a "let's do this quick" rather than a "let's make this enterprise"
If I notice foo.bar() and I wonder what bar does I'll do help(foo.bar) in an interactive shell unless I know where to find the docs online
@towc eh, okay
we'll get back to it when times change and "minimal effort done to write maintainable code" is no longer an enterprise luxury
I just don't know what you expect when you ask for input here.
I guess it's my mistake for reading "is there an established way to do what I want" as "I want to do it right". "let's do this quick" is a completely different thing. Not doing anything is quick. You're done, you can call it a day.
10:12
Can someone please add reject and edit this to add the numpy tag? I missed what the proposed edit added, but accepting will reverse the fluff that I removed
Thanks. At first I thought the suggested edit was a rollback :)
@AndrasDeak I clarified later. My expectations were completely met, don't worry, but I was still curious
10:32
@towc I read all your comments but I'm not understanding too well: you have 12 internal methods () that you want to have readable code, but without docstrings, but users should be able to figure out they're internal so they don't need to read them. Have a look at how pandas organizes itself. Suggest you shunt them into a separate file or subdirectory and import them, to keep users from worrying about their contents....
using a separate file also seems enterprise-ish
but thanks, I'll have a look
It sounds like you're reaching the point where one monolithic file is too long to be coherent, so you should make this a package? (yes I know it's easier and less error-prone to copy a single file, especially when your users are like "What's pip? Why isn't it on my command line? Why did it break on version x?")
this is literally an internal tool I'm using to work as a server to test a client. The server will need to be implemented by someone else, so I just wanted the tests to be able to be some kind of reference
this code isn't going to be ran by anyone else, and might not even end up being read
it's a bit of a specific situation, I guess
I've half paid attention to this discussion and you seem to be throwing any sensible approach away as "enterprise-ish" as though good structure etc. is something to be avoided unless absolutely necessary
@towc _prefix convention doesn't imply "This function is hopelessly obscure/ cryptically written", merely "a) No external code should directly call this function b) its signature(/behavior/return value) may be subject to change c) You should not need to read all its code in order to understand the class"
10:39
@roganjosh I'm genuinely sorry I made you feel that way. I'm ok with how things are
I'm not asking/expecting you to be sorry for anything. It's an observation you you seem to be painting yourself into a corner on some principle I can't grasp
ok, thanks for the help, we can change topic
@towc Instead of saying 'enterprise-ish', perhaps tell us who will be deploying this, are they expected to have any Python knowledge, let alone working up-to-date versions of pip and python 3.7.x on their paths, what's their expectation of legibility vs robustness vs support? Are you deploying it from git? a tarball? If users break it, will they send panic messages to the VP at 3am, or will they be able to fix it?
7 mins ago, by towc
this is literally an internal tool I'm using to work as a server to test a client. The server will need to be implemented by someone else, so I just wanted the tests to be able to be some kind of reference
and the 2 messages after that
the point of those messages was to close the conversation
I think we should respect towc's suggestion and leave it. They've learned what they wanted.
10:46
Andras Deak, ok, I had been writing that post for a couple of minutes before towc's last comment appeared. Sure.
thanks
To lighten the mood, I'm looking for a software-y meme about "Treatment for dependencies" ... couldn't find one.
Context? I'm not sure what you're looking for.
Anyone with extensive background in using Alembic data migration?
@AndrasDeak Err, the above context, which we have agreed not to discuss further. But y no memez...?
10:55
I guess it's just that regulars tend to successfully communicate using traditional means of written communication
You mean you haven't been seeing my occasional glares? Well this is disappointing...
@AndrasDeak really now... :P
11:04
I mean, I can't decide is this is a wickedly-executed parody, or for real: course_report_production.s3.amazonaws.com/rich/rich_files/…
I just saw a question by someone from COMU University. I'd never heard of it, so a quick Google to see where it is and the description starts "With its 49.791 students, Çanakkale Onsekiz Mart University (COMU) is one of the most competitive universities in Turkey..." I guess they account for the limbs lost in the obstacle course for the top 50. (I can never read . as anything but decimal)
I find that exact figure a bit unnecessary...
Well, on account of the fact it was probably only accurate for like half a day tops :P
limbs don't grow back that fast
If you took the cumulative growth of ear lobes and noses as the students age, you might scrape in at 0.001 of a human per day.
11:10
2. ????
3. profit
Tbh, I didn't even see the business opportunity. You really do have some acumen
 
1 hour later…
12:35
cbg folks, is there any nice way I can take this scatter matrix and split it into 3x3 subplots?
erm
12:53
@Skyler you'll probably have to do that yourself
when you make a scatter matrix with pandas it outputs like this
array([[<matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df932780>,
        <matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df9579e8>,
        <matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df902c50>,
        <matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df8aaeb8>],
       [<matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df8dc160>,
        <matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df8843c8>,
       ....
        <matplotlib.axes._subplots.AxesSubplot object at 0x7f79df6fb668>,
(see full text)
yup
oh, your issue is that you can't easily slice your data because the function always creates a symmetric matrix
yea
yeah, I guess you could manually relocate those subplot objects into a figure...but I think their position (as in subplot location) would have to be changed
sounds like a mess, honestly
i was thinking maybe I can just pull out 3x3 chunks from that output array
but whats the right way to then display each one with pyplot
12:58
yeah, try that and see what happens (I don't know)
@Skyler google "matplotlib change axes figure" or something like that
it might be as simple as changing ax.figure
it also might not be possible
@aaren - It's not working because the way the axes stack for a figure works has been changed in newer versions of matplotlib. Axes deliberately aren't supposed to be shared between different figures now. As a workaround, you could do this fig2._axstack.add(fig2._make_key(a), a), but it's hackish and likely to change in the future. It seems to work properly, but it may break some things. — Joe Kington Dec 7 '12 at 13:21
you're probably better off computing and plotting the scatters yourself...
sorry, didn't notice Importance's newer answer
6
A: matplotlib: can I create AxesSubplot objects, then add them to a Figure instance?

ImportanceOfBeingErnestThe following shows how to "move" an axes from one figure to another. This is the intended functionality of @JoeKington's last example, which in newer matplotlib versions is not working anymore, because axes cannot live in several figures at once. You would first need to remove the axes from the...

so building up the 3x3 as oppose to slicing them
yup
>>> fig, (ax1,ax2) = plt.subplots(nrows=2)
... ax1.plot([1,2,3], [4,5,6])
... ax2.plot([1,2,3], [-4,-5,-6])
...
... ax1.remove()
... fig2 = plt.figure()
... ax1.figure = fig2
... fig2.axes.append(ax1)
... fig2.add_axes(ax1)
...
... plt.show()
minimal example for their solution
yea, lists and loops can simplify some of this
They have a last block that sets a new size for the subplot. You can use that to reposition the axes such that they fill the new figure
I don't see any underscores so you might get away with this solution
the first line is a tad confusing though, is the ax tuple there returning the dimensions
13:10
Hmm?
my first line unpacks the tuple (list?) of AxesSubplot objects returned by plt.subplots into two separate names for ease of use
oh ok, axes is an object
13:53
cabbage
cbg
cbg
cbg
14:04
cbg
This website I frequent has a banner advertising an "incoming new look" alongside a countdown reading "30days". I think it's supposed to be exciting but I find it ominous
Could it be because I know that new version releases usually come with bugs, outages, and clueless support?
14:29
I have a function that loads a setting from a file. Because that setting file may not be initialised yet/exist I check if it exists, calling the function to create it if necessary, *then* import the setting from the file.
Is this bad form/a bad idea? I could simply house this function in a separate script, but doing that purely for this reason seems silly, whereas keeping it with the other scripts dealing with settings and creating/editing/writing to the settings file seems logical.
That's normal, and called a default config.
I often use the "read, creating first if necessary" pattern in my own code.
So that's the sensible use-case for importing in a function?
Although where possible I don't actually bother reading from the file immediately after I create it. Since presumably I still have the data I used to initialize the file on-hand already
#1 start up program
#2 see if program.conf exists
#3 if no, copy default.conf to program.conf
#4 read settings from program.conf
@toonarmycaptain It shouldn't be some business logic function, it should happen exactly once at the very beginning of your program start
14:35
#e.g. I prefer this:

def get_or_create(filename):
    if isfile(filename):
        with open(filename) as file:
            return json.load(file)
    else:
        data = {"foo": "bar"}
        with open(filename, "w") as file:
            json.dump(data, file)
        return data

#over this:

def get_or_create(filename):
    if not isfile(filename):
        data = {"foo": "bar"}
        with open(filename, "w") as file:
            json.dump(data, file)
    with open(filename) as file:
        return json.load(file)
(see full text)
@toonarmycaptain I worry that when you say "import" you mean the actual import statement. I don't consider it bad design to put configuration options inside a .py file... As long as you're not trying to do anything fancy with it, like autogenerate the file at runtime if it doesn't exist.
As soon as you graduate from "I only need to retrieve values that are definitely present and will never change over the lifetime of the program's execution", then I'd be inclined to use a non-py file format for config data.
cbg \o
@Kevin I do. But in principle, only the first time the program is run, or if someone has deleted/moved the file.
I have a site I was looking into where their webservice was providing all the "options" for the front end to display, Now I realized the JSON response to angular had close to 100k objects, this was chugging render on the front end, is there anyway around this other than perhaps "loading" on each drop down box ? or is question too vague...
Having an import statement inside a function is a yellow flag for me in general
Now the webservice is built from python but it's not really that slow, at the mercy of the database.
14:45
I feel like a regular html drop down box isn't really designed to hold 100k values
well it's not just one drop down box, but a few hundred, each with their own massive selection, but I hear you...
I'd be inclined to do something AJAXy like fetch values in batches of 100 per request, only doing so when the user is about to reach the end of the list
Either way, I kinda wanna just shrug my shoulder and moved on,
That's not a bad idea....
100k entries in dropdown boxes sound like a nightmare. Does the input in one dropdown not reduce the number of options in subsequent dropdowns?
I have no idea if regular html drop downs even have a "user is about to reach the end of the list" event that you could hook into though
14:53
In other words, have the dropdowns progressively filter their options based on previous dropdowns, or have a free text disambiguation instead
@Kevin Fair enough, that's really the part of the pattern I was querying. The issue being if the import is at the top, outside of a try-except, it'll obviously error when it doesn't find it. But maybe it should be JSON. It just seemed simpler to do from settings import setting, then deal with any potential changes by modifying the var and writing to the file.
@roganjosh 50-55 states/territories always feels crazy to me, coming from Australia where it's like...8-10 max, usually.
@Kevin this is a thing??
Having an import at the global scope but inside a try-except is a little crufty to my eye, but not actually a flag of any color. I've seen it done in professional code bases.
@toonarmycaptain good job you dont have each square meter as a territory then as apparently is the case :P
14:58
@Kevin dang, I've spent 10 minutes trying to find that
there was a collection of these and I was looking for the slider. The one you posted is also included here
@roganjosh Unclear; Poe's Law applies. I've seen designs like this alongside obvious joke designs like a phone number slider, or a "is this your number? [no, guess again]" label/button. But the thousand-element dropdown is just barely not-impractical enough to be real.
Ha, thats given me a proper chuckle but sadly in public!
^^^ Independent verification from Andras
I'm kinda going on the assumption that Mooing has a real use-case here, though
@MooingRawr What is the actual context (more from my own curiosity tbh)?
15:03
probably just technical debt hell
Certainly I can imagine real-world applications where the simplest implementation really would be a zillion element drop down. M.R.'s instincts are correct that there's got to be a better way.
Still, there are presumably 100k different entries over the whole web form
@roganjosh Coming from Western Australia to Texas, and hearing Texans talk about everything being bigger, and driving distances always makes me laugh...
My own work project has a couple lists whose number of values is in the low hundreds. We have a custom widget that makes it easy to search/filter though.
Our biggest plain old dropdown has, like, seven items.
TIL...Australia only has two states smaller than Texas.
15:06
A list of countries would probably be ~250 entries if my memory serves. But we're talking about another 399 dropdowns like that to hit the target
@roganjosh the site hosts cards similar to MTG and selections based on it. For some reason, the original dev thought it was a grand idea to load all the cards at once :D
Also sorry had to step away into a call lol
One time I wrote a userscript that contained the name of every Magic card, all nineteen thousand of them :>
MTG being Magic: The Gathering?
What database technology are they stored in?
15:09
SQL
back end Python, front end angular, hosted on amazon AWS(? i think)
And the dropdown is the text name?
I have an AJAX implementation that would get you started on sequential filtering when I get home
yes, but if you hover a little window pops up with the card image. The image's path is stored on a table
Greasemonkey can't easily access local files and I didn't have any web hosting at the time so embedding a great honking chunk of json straight in the script was the best I could do
oh that would be nice, I was hoping I could shrug and run away from this project lol
I only asked cause I was hoping to get an idea, toss it to them and run away as a distraction tactic :D
Oh god, so 100k options, each with the image data associated with them?
15:12
but if being IT for my family/extended family has taught me anything, the moment you show any level of competence they will come hunt you down later in life.
I've been on a lot of MTG sites, and many of them had incredibly sophisticated interfaces, and zero of them had a dropdown of every magic card.
Yeah, Rogan, I feel like this was built from someone who was learning webdev and had SO, W3 open on the side. So like I said I will just give them an idea and run away. hopefully
if you don't hear from me on Monday, send help, they caught me :D (joking)
Heck, even the crappy fansite I made when I was 16 had a little window that pops up with the card data, but it didn't embed every existing card in the request.
So it's not a site that you want anything to do with in terms of code? If that's the case, my snippet I was thinking of would be useless
The closest I have as a self-contained example is this, with everything in a single script, but if they're working the way they are, I doubt theres anything useful they could extrapolate
The advice you give them might not even need to have code... Just "you should think carefully about whether you really need a feature that requires a full megabyte of data per page load"
15:20
You can just as easily use the setup to use wildcard filters on an SQL db to narrow a list of search results as you keep trying characters, but I don't have anything set up as a standalone example I could share
15:33
@toonarmycaptain calling a continent a country is cheating a bit, don't you think? ;)
@AndrasDeak pretty sure Palin once said she'd never visited the "country of Africa"
My secret shame is that I'm no good at geography. I can identify countries with very distinct outlines, like Italy, but any country whose contour is best described as "a round squiggle" is indistinguishable from all the others to me
She did. If she can do it, it's not cheating, surely
@Kevin I don't think people are supposed to recognize countries by shape
i think thats precisely why the contour is described as "a round squiggle"
15:39
not everyone can afford to be as tidy as Wyoming
and don't get me started on natural borderlines...
Doing the "Place the labels" quiz at online.seterra.com/en/vgp/3007, I can definitely identify Ireland, the UK, Russia, Germany, France, Italy, Greece, Spain, and Portugal.
I know Norway is near the top but I can never remember if it's on the left or the right
the fact that you can name so many European countries should cancel your secret shame ;D
@Kevin if it helps: there's a Sweden<->Finland ferry for booze
I know 9 out of 46, that's an F and a repeated semester right there
I think part of the issue with Brexit is how the "hard" border will be represented. We demand a country border that's 3 pixels wider than all others on a map.
@roganjosh is this about Gibraltar? Most of your borders are shoreline...
@AndrasDeak probably not a ferry
15:45
"The island of Ireland". I'm not quite sure why "The island of" came into it all, but now Ireland has it as some prefix
and if you piss them off you'll face the ire of the island
The ire of the island of Ireland*
Also, I assume our ferry fiasco got reported abroad?
not sure
@Kevin so I managed to get 87%, and I live here
The govt signed a contract with a ferry company to give us extra shipping capacity in the case that our borders expanded by 3 pixels
15:50
Except they didn't own any boats, and their legal documents were taken from a takeaway
that's why one should separate data from representation
So the contract had things like how to deal with returned pizzas
haha, nice
Then the Channel Tunnel sued to govt and won on top
I'll give myself 9.5/46 because I know Iceland is a European island but if someone said "hey, what's the name of this island?" without revealing its location on the globe, I would never guess it
15:57
neither would I
At least Greenland has the courtesy to be a wonky shape
Blame the Mercator projection. Easy get-out of being "wrong"
Kevin projecting his problems onto Mercator
I'm highly proficient at blowing my problems out of proportion ;-)
I was prompted to look at cartopy a week or two ago. Turns out that it has a feature to plot Tissot's indicatrices. Pretty neat.
16:04
I once tried to understand all this stuff, with geodesics etc, and subsequently mentally dumped everything I'd read in the bin. It just isn't something I can properly visualise in my head, despite a globe being obvious
Metric on a globe is everything but obvious. We see and think in flat 2d.
<nod to the physicists and mathematicians>
My understanding of projections is "you can't squash an orange peel perfectly flat. Every kind of map is a different way of addressing this problem"
Yeah, that's the reasonable explanation. If you try to dig into the why's and how's, it becomes an endless spiral of complexity
16:11
I think I understand the principle of Mercator: Wrap a cylinder around the globe and project from one to another by drawing lines through the globe's center. Wikipedia tells me there's a lot more math involved if you want it to work accurately on non-spherical planets, like Earth for example.
(which is also a way to figure out that your local spacetime is curved)
Points to Dymaxion map whose apparent method is "draw the world on an orange peel, then smoosh it as flat as you can. Expect tears."
I always love finding these. My life is a lie starter pack.
3
Last time I was looking at these was when I was figuring out texture mapping onto a sphere with mayavi/vtk. I was a bit surprised when I took a better look at the spherical result. I rarely look at globes.
There was a campaign to change the maps in schools in the UK. Completely pointless in most ways because nobody really cares anymore, but at the same time, the distortions in the Northern Hemisphere are severe
"nobody cares anymore" is a very good reason to do it right
16:17
I heard that they are phasing out Mercator
Africa is ridiculously huge compared to how it appears
When all operating systems are 3d we won't need 2d maps and children will think we lived in such a quaint era
still no volumetric holograms without a medium
Huh, I'm even more pessimistic than I thought :P
16:19
Born too late to design map projections, born too soon to terraform worlds and explore them with only iron age technology for fun
“and children will think we lived in such a quaint era” – But we do, don’t we?
It's hard to tell how quaint it is when we're living in it.
I can imagine many thing being entertaining, but none of them are designing map projections
@Kevin it must count for something when masses start wondering if we're in the dark timeline
(I'm not going to argue that we can't be quaint at all on account of all the bad things that happen all the time, because bad things happened in the past too and those are quaint anyway)
too late
16:21
Example: sock hops and malt shops are quaint despite the endemic institutionalized racism of the era
I had to google that to figure out if it had anything to do with botany
@AndrasDeak in the confines of this room, I agree. Outside, people really don't. The one thing that's ever more obvious to me is how little anyone cares about facts
"Nobody cares anymore" means you have free reign to make changes while nobody is looking
Sick of institutional gridlock? Try apathy!
I'm currently in my local pub. At a guess, I know about 300 by name. I'm still sat chatting in this room. I'll tell you what I overheard earlier.
Sister booking an appointment for her brother that I think has learning difficulties of some kind. He needed an endoscopy. She couldn't read the letter. Her friend suggested "gynecology". So she dutifully rang the hospital saying "my brother needs to book in for a gynecology".
I considered raising the issue of how kids round here shouldn't be looking at the Mercator Projection in their classroom
16:33
@AndrasDeak There's an OCEAN between Mongolia and Russia? :O
TIL you can subtract a dict's keys() directly from a set, no need to setify them first
4
@toonarmycaptain :P
The optimist in me supposes that the observed IQ of pub goers is not representative of their actual IQ when they're sober
They were sober, and I know the woman that rang. I did misspeak - She can read but couldn't read / say "endoscopy"
@AndrasDeak Well, as I understand Australia the country is only part of Australia the continent.
16:41
ah, neat, that looks reasonable
It's surprising to me that she didn't know what a gynecologist was, since anyone that's visited one is not likely to ever forget the experience.
assuming they've visited one
Alternate theory: she knows exactly what a gynecologist is, but has a poor understanding of male anatomy
plus they might call it ob-gyn or something
Cilla Black had a song for it - Life is full, full or surprises
16:42
"Seems like an unusual way to examine a gall bladder, but maybe that's just how guys are hooked up down there?"
"my boyfriend always gets the cramps after Chipotle"
morning cabbage
I fixed it for them. I've made some disparaging remarks but if the Brexit mess (that I joke about) seems curious to outsiders, these are the people that feel most strongly about it and I'm not sure they could possibly have made an informed decision. There's bigger problems than map projections going on over here.
16:54
@roganjosh I wish they'd get it done, or not. I'd rather get a dark blue passport than a red one, but I don't like waiting.
@PaulMcG you don't even need a set, two dict.keys() can also do that. Edit: a dict.keys() and a dict can do that too, wow
@roganjosh what Brexit mess? :>
@toonarmycaptain well I can completely appreciate that. The Sun campaigned hard and it was a mega victory. Where's the loot already?!
@AndrasDeak I misspoke. All is going swimmingly.
As in: the ship is sinking and everyone is treading water to stay afloat?
@roganjosh That said, I don't really think what they're doing/how they're doing it is a great idea. But I like the stylistics of my original passport, so..
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