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00:17
@JGreenwell I still need to learn more about monads
@Code-Apprentice me too, in the sense that I still run from them
Andras you still around?
I also need to find a project where I can use some haskell
that would help give me a reason to learn monads
@JGreenwell just leaving for bed, shoot
is Kullback-Leibler divergence is a popular method for looking at cross-entropy or am I losing my mind?
Sorry, not my field at all :)
00:28
ah. oh,well. I can never tell with you scientists ;). Thanks anyway :)
I'm physics and my math is mostly analysis and linear algebra. Very non-CS
And non-stats
yeah, I thought this was used with geospatial stuff so wondered
IIRC, it's to do with information gain theory
I used it a few times to measure information gain with bayes, but that was a while ago and apparently my memory is failing me. Ahh...a long week and its only Tuesday
It's been Wednesday for hours ;) rbrb
00:37
night @AndrasDeak
 
3 hours later…
03:37
Recbg
nighttime cabbage
^ == sleeping alone
04:05
What @geekobi is saying is if you catch and re-raise, traceback.print_exc() will just return the re-raise stack, not the original stack. — fizloki 2 hours ago
Am I missing something?
I checked my code, it runs as expected...
04:50
Hi everyone I just wanted to ask everyone: What is your favorite python one-liner.
05:21
@AaronHall python 2?
@Agile_Eagle print('Hello world')
@Agile_Eagle it is the only Python one-liner I've ever written that was readable.
@AnttiHaapala My code samples were probably originally created in 2, but do stacktraces perform differently in 2?
@AaronHall no proper chaining
reraise works but not throwing in exception handler, say...
@AnttiHaapala I think you can reraise the traceback object with a different exception type... you just can't do that in 3 with the same syntax.
yes, but the During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:
which you now need to suppress in Python 3 explicitly by using @poke's raise X from None
05:41
I can't wait until I can start editing out my old Python 2 specific code... I'm already kinda deprecating it, could probably do more on that line...
05:52
Hello! It says in Python Documentation: "Perhaps the quickest check to see whether command line editing is supported is typing Control-P to the first Python prompt you get" (I don't understand what "Python prompt" means), in cmd I typed 'python' and then pyton interpreter launched and the new command line began with >>> so I pressed Ctrl+P and it didn't beep, which, sadly, means I don't have command line editing running; how to enable it?
@TaluyBaatar you do have, if you've got 3.7.0.
that advice is just bad.
it is just that it is easier than: "type a, press arrow left, if the cursor moved you've got line editing"
@AnttiHaapala I have Python 3.6.3, so should I install it? (advice)
3.6.3 is fine
most terminals should have that. @AnttiHaapala you should give the docs a pull request...
@AnttiHaapala Thank you!
05:58
ah or...
@TaluyBaatar does ^that work
I typed in cmd '^P', '^p' even ^ itself but every time it gave an error @AnttiHaapala
(syntax error)
lol, no,
does the editing work in python
arrow keys
can you move around with arrow keys
I've not used python shell in windows for perhaps > 10 years
I imagine Ctrl-P is enabled by GNU readline.
and it accesses the history feature.
it is, but my terminal a) doesn't beep; b) if there is something in the history it will show that and not beep anyhow :D
@AnttiHaapala Oh, I think a screenshot can be explanative above
06:03
@TaluyBaatar ^P is a unixism. It means Control+P, not 2 characters ^ and P :D
nevertheless:
another test would be: type a, and then press left arrow, does the cursor move under the letter a?
@AnttiHaapala Yes!
so "then you have command line editing"
i.e. just
>>> a_

=>

>>> ̲a
@AnttiHaapala Yes I had that. Thank you very much for bearing with me!
06:06
@TaluyBaatar the Control+P method is just stupid, it should be removed from the docs...
Maybe...
I decided to learn Python by reading Python Docs because of the advice of this sincere man: youtube.com/watch?v=5mJ_Qftw2_0
@TaluyBaatar good, I like to see people giving good advice...
(and receiving it as well)
@TaluyBaatar bookmarked :D
Techlead's videos are sometimes a perfect mix of comedy and advice
@TaluyBaatar I usually tell people to skip chapter two and start at chapter 3 of the tutorial.
06:19
@AaronHall I also had that in mind, chapter 2 was helpful to me because I could set path to Anaconda3, and so enabled Python in cmd.
Unlike yesterday.
@TaluyBaatar Anaconda comes with a terminal launcher ("Anaconda Prompt"?) - that's probably preferable to modifying your PATH.
I'm up too late... good night!
06:48
Hey, I have a question, can anyone tell me what Im doing wrong here 206.189.230.208:8000 I just tried to install django and I DID allow my server IP address in the settings.py file. I was following a tutorial from DO located here digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/…
Any help would be much appreciated
06:59
NVM I think I got it
07:40
cbg-ning everyone
 
4 hours later…
11:57
@roganjosh sorry about your eyes! :p
reduce doesn't get enough attention (and rightly so in most cases but...) :p
"(albeit it harder to grok what you're doing)" puts it mildly :)
@roganjosh umm... Sunitha's answer is interesting as well :)
@JonClements yeah, I guess I'm not invested in that kind of approach. But I suppose it's just lack of familiarity with what you posted; I imagine it would be the same for people new to numpy seeing some of the code that gets written
12:53
Minecraft server is running again guys if anyone's interested...
Mein Kraft
@AndrasDeak I'd prefer Mein Herr
13:28
\o cbg
oh interesting, they rolled out the "New contributor" tag on users...
13:42
Not sure how long it lasts though. Rep 32 (now 30) doesn't seem to have it anymore.
one week after the first non-deleted post on the given site
13:54
That's such a weird way to determine someone is "new"
it is definitely redundant
... the part with which gripe is to be had, in my case, is mostly the not subtle hint at "you shall now have favoritism with new users or else".
I just came here to ask a question to davidsm but they are not online I guess
welp
cbg
SE says they will consider using main scores for meta but not until the second revision. Basically any complaint about this is answered by: "We ain't doing nuthin' for a week."
14:09
@IşıkKaplan Unless you two already had a discussion about it previously, I don't think he'd appreciate you directly addressing the question to him. Kindly put your question openly in the chat so that anyone else present can address the same (if they can / are willing)
Oh it is because I think I saw him as a contributor or as a maintainer for the flask framework
^ Still applies
Oh okay :3 Sorry then
I was just wondering why doesn't flask just put the request inside the view functions when it calls them
Like django does for instance
When you think about it, even if you don't use the request variable, there is a request happening a user asks for something and you put the request to some process and return a webpage
Couldn't find anything online about why in flask it just is a global variable
14:13
Oh lol, was looking for something like this that explains it and it was in the docs? lmao
Thanks xD
it's not global fyi - it is a threadlocal (if it was global it wouldn't be threadsafe)
every time i see the flask docu i am pleasantly surprised by how nice it looks.
so calming and neat
I like how they do links (bold and a dashed underline) - looks neat without breaking readability even without the color contrast
I mean is there a difference between global variable and global object?
totally stolen. these links mine nao.
14:16
Because the first sentence of the link you sent is literally says that request is a global object :D
@IşıkKaplan Everything* in python is a first class object
Everything is not a global object tho
Well, any variable is an object, if it's global, it's global object :-p
like if you look for the link for test_request_context() in the docs I linked - you can see underlines, tell it is a link, and it looks nice
No I mean
14:18
i guess its 'Not everything is a global object'
I already am quoting the link you sent
In Flask this information is provided by the global request object.
I don't think "global object" is a coherent concept because "global" is a quality of the name resolution system and variables have names but objects don't
> Certain objects in Flask are global objects, but not of the usual kind. These objects are actually proxies to objects that are local to a specific context.
My previous message has a level of pedantry that I wouldn't enforce on any documentation that's meant to be understood by humans
14:23
In other words, sometimes striving for 100% technical accuracy makes things harder to understand, not easier
So Flask can go ahead and use "variable" and "object" interchangeably if the reader can reasonably determine what it means from context
Heck I'm pretty sure the Python docs do that in a couple places too
Okay so I read it a bit and it explains what the request object is a bit I think
"But Kevin, if even the official docs use those terms as if they're interchangeable, on what authority do you assert otherwise? Aren't you just making up definitions wholecloth? Why should we listen to your terminology headcanons?" That's the trick, dear reader. Never listen to anybody on the Internet for any reason.
Sounds like good advice, so I'll go ahead and ignore it
The self-denying prophecy
I would not be surprised if there was an natural language project out there with the goal of understanding Kevinisms
14:37
I would be surprised... unless that project was Kevin's project.
@Kevin well, that was an enjoyable dialogue. thanks for sharing your inner friends.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier inner Kevins*
heh, yes, indeed
Kevins are like onions.. and ogres.
... onires? ogrions?
Ogrion is now totally the name of a DnD monster I'll use someday
14:41
Cabbage
@piRSquared And images in photoshop / gimp, etc.
Ogrion is gaelic for orange
14:43
So oranges are ogre onions, got it.
morning cabbage
"I don't know how broadcasting should work but it has to be a bug"
If it doesn't meet your untested expectations then it's obviously a bug
Look how many times for loops stop working in phyton
does anyone want to join me for kaggle contests
What are you working on?
14:56
fairly sure this room has had some participation in kaggle stuff before... (or that might just be the AoC)
there's an Air and Space Operations Center contest on Kaggle?
Actually I think you could create a killer team out of this room in practical application, but the winners tend to have overly complex models
Kevin is in charge of overly complex
rb folks
On a serious note, has it ever been considered we should have a go?
15:01
Not to be confused with Koogle.
Thanks for sticking with the serious theme :P
I would assume most of us are working and therefore really don't have the time for Kaggle contests but there was a note about "ways new users can contribute" to room 6 so if you draft something (a case for a room 6 team) it might be a good start @roganjosh
Well, at the moment, it's just floating an idea
I'm just curious if there's any interest at all in having a go
wim
wim
@AndrasDeak tbh I agree with that reasoning
tbh I hate seeing the "new contributor" on any of my posts (and would even if this was my first day)
wim
wim
15:06
meta is vitriolic and downvotes fly around everywhere, it seems reasonable that someone could accrue a lot of experience on main without ever having reason to wade into the swamp that is meta ..
@JGreenwell you mean the waving hand doesn't make it appealing?
What Wim said. OTOH, I assume many long-term main-site users would look at stuff in the Hot Meta list from time to time. So they should have some awareness of meta before they make their first post there.
and then they post on meta with a rep of 18k and are either immediately confused or annoyed (or both)
@roganjosh How do you know it's a waving hand? Maybe it's a hand that's about to deliver a slap. ;)
why "new contributor" is associated with a "hello" I still don't get
15:11
@PM2Ring I... cannot argue with that :P
wim
wim
confused for a moment, ok, but seems like a minuscule thing to be annoyed about :) so it goes away in a week, right?
I was called away but did the GM happen? If so - it's not on sopy's transcripts page?
wim
wim
yes it happened and great fun was had by all, there was cake
I don't like being called a boot - at all
wim
wim
... a boot?
15:13
cbg
I'm not convinced by the wavey hand thingy... seems like singling out users for no real reason... I can kind of understand why it's been done... but... umm.... I'm pretty much against it right now...
But it's only everywhere you look while trying to answer or comment
boot = rookie = noob
wim
wim
Well it's not saying you're a "boot". It just indicates you're a new contributor to that particular site (which you are).
15:16
um... wonder why the unaccept on stackoverflow.com/questions/51916943/… and then accepting a worse answer... sighs
wim
wim
don't see any downvotes there
welp, I just added mine :D
wrong post - oh well...
@wim I don't mind the reasosing. I mind the feature.
wim
wim
@AndrasDeak Why?
15:21
Because I suspect it's counterproductive and I find it personally insulting
@JonClements transcript not up yet but brief summary under agenda sopython.com/wiki/2018_Q3_General_Meeting
wim
wim
Counterproductive - any evidence to back that up? Insulting - hmm? No shame in being a new contributor.
It's an obtrusive UI feature and it suggests that I was going to type something unconstructive had I not known they were a new user
@wim insulting me meta.stackexchange.com/questions/314287/… and counterproductive is just my expectation, no science meta.stackexchange.com/questions/314287/…
wim
wim
Does a "password strength" indicator in a UI suggest you were going to use a weak password, and thus insult you? No, it's just adding a little bit of extra context.
Experience of the poster is no context on SO.
It's always been about content, and you have to be nice anyway
15:26
Some newbies will like it being made obvious that they're new, but some won't. For the ones that do, I guess it's better than them adding fluff to their post announcing that they're new, which plenty of newbies do. OTOH, I expect it will make shy newbies feel uncomfortable.
They'll announce anyway. "New to python"
A password checker wouldn't tell me that what I was thinking was weak. It would only inform me after I typed it.
Do new users know that this "new contributor" banner will be shown below their name?
They see the userbox one
wim
wim
@roganjosh Oh. The ones I was thinking of are .js and they validate as you're typing. Like you type "hun" and it's already red telling you your password is weak, then "hunter2" and it's changed to yellow ..
15:29
@wim you're adapting a metaphor that I'm not sure applies
Ideally new users get a banner reminding them of the CoC when they type anywhere
Do newbies see the "new contributor" message? Or is that just visible to those of us posting answers and/or comments?
As I said on SO Meta, the regulars who care about giving newbies a little extra help don't need to see a "new contributor" banner: they can tell from the OP's behaviour and low rep. And it only takes a moment to check the profile page if you want further info.
And the regulars who don't care are just as likely to see the "new contributor" banner and decide to simply skip the question since newbies can be a pain to deal with, and they can't upvote.
I think the reminder to "be nice" is helpful. I know I can use the reminder to phrase my comments for clarification in a nicer way and avoid the snark and put-downs.
15:32
@wim and even JS in its weirdness can't guess at what I'm thinking until I type it :)
wim
wim
@PM2Ring almost, but not true on a meta site where you have rep display from main but can still be new contributor
@PM2Ring And for a few problem users it will be like red cloth to a bull
@Aran-Fey kevin'd
@wim Sure, but I (mostly) agreed with that earlier. :)
wim
wim
@PM2Ring LOL. True. Like you speed away from the student driver on the road because they often do unpredictable stupid things..
is there L plate emoji?
15:36
@JonClements Could be a confused newbie trying to accept multiple answers.
Careful. Next we'll have a giant L taking up 1/4 of the screen
@PM2Ring Also not sure how it deals with deleted posts... I wonder depending how it works it might leak the fact they have something deleted... (even if no one can see it... but...)
wim
wim
userscript to change 👋 to 🔰
Here student drivers get a T so I'd associate L with lame
wim
wim
or "Loser"
15:38
@JonClements it's claimed deleted posts are ignored
ahh... think I remember reading that... might have to see if I can't grab he who must not be named in the blue room for a moment and clarify (just in case something about it isn't meant to be public...)
Surely babysitting users is more important than privacy
congrats @IljaEverilä on 20k :D
8
wim
wim
anyone have a CI solution for macOS? there is travis-ci for linux, appveyor for windows..
15:46
and more importantly getting it with the uncompromising attitude of only answering the obscure questions that mostly just get tank you as the only response.
16:04
ummm... stackoverflow.com/questions/51970441/… was nice and easy...
I should remember to use reversed more often, instead of extended slicing. OTOH, I guess top[::-1] is a little faster if top is small, even though it does create an extra list.
wim
wim
If you want to use reversed more often, make it a habit to always for obj in reversed(mylist[::-1]):
Stupid question, but whats the best way to say:
If myValue < 8, then fill then fill the difference?
yeah... it's one of those builtins that I sometimes wonder why exists...
@Parakoopa fill the difference in what and how exactly?
I just want to say, If randomValue is less than 8, then add a comma for each number missing
so if it was 4, I would add 4 commas
wim
wim
16:13
add a comma to what?
a file
csv
because I can't map([::-1], list_of_iterables) and I can map(reversed, loi)
wim
wim
use csv.writer object
no no, i know how to write to a csv, I'm saying whats the best way to structure the statement to fill in the blanks dynamically
if a random number is coming in and is less than lets say 8, would it be a for loop to say for myvalue - 8 write a comma?
wim
wim
you want to write rows to a csv which always have 8 fields
16:16
exactly, even if enough data was only entered into lets say 4 fields
wim
wim
OK
wim
wim
>>> import csv, sys
>>> mincols = 8
>>> mydata = ['a', 'b']
>>> w = csv.writer(sys.stdout)
>>> while len(mydata) < mincols:
...     mydata.append('')
...
>>> w.writerow(mydata)
a,b,,,,,,
ty wim
@wim why not just .extend('' * (mincols - len(whatever)) ?
16:25
The loop is definitely more readable
cbg :)
@Aran-Fey Maybe, but a Python loop is slower than a C loop. And .extend should be just as readable as .append.
wim
wim
@JonClements why?
the empty string times anything is still the empty string
I missed []s off :)
Good point. :)
wim
wim
16:30
it's easy to write bugs when you're trying to be clever
just write a plain old loop
nothing wrong with:
In [88]: mydata = ['a', 'b']

In [89]: [*mydata, *[''] * (8 - len(mydata))]
Out[89]: ['a', 'b', '', '', '', '', '', '']
wim
wim
I think there is plenty wrong with it
^ lots wrong. It's unnecessary python-fu
The first code needn't be commented. As for the second one...
hey guys does anyone know offhand how to use argparse to do --option or --option=value or if its not used at all to just be None or False (like store_true ... but allow a user value)
16:32
mydata + [''] * (8 - len(mydata)) is better
wim
wim
An inexperienced developer writes code that takes an experienced developer to maintain. An experienced developer writes code that an inexperienced developer can maintain.
@piRSquared sure... but if you're going to program in Python - there's always some "fu" involved... you're going to come across it at some point...
@JoranBeasley argparse.add_argument(<your flags>, default=None) ? It's been a long time I haven't used it.
but then it wont accept --option right?
@JoranBeasley parser.add_argument('--option', action='store', default=None)
16:35
I agree, and the more -fu you know the better choices you can make. However, I'd definitely claim that there can be too much when it doesn't improve performance or readability.
Interestingly:
In [90]: %timeit [*mydata, *[''] * (8 - len(mydata))]
317 ns ± 2.31 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)

In [91]: %timeit mydata + [''] * (8 - len(mydata))
287 ns ± 6.02 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)
@Aran-Fey it wont accept just --option then
wim
wim
omg, if you are comparing some nanoseconds in writing a csv you have already lost sight of the big picture
What is mydata here?
oh I'm not worried about that - I don't find either approach more readable than t'other... just find it curious how extended unpacking times compared to append a list to a list...
wim
wim
16:37
@JoranBeasley you want nargs='?'
or that is one heck of a big csv file
ie if its not present i want one default value(False), if its specified without a value i want a different default value(True), and if its specified as --option=Hello i get Hello
@JoranBeasley Wait, you want to be able to pass --option without a value? What's that supposed to do, then?
I thought you wanted to do something like --option 5
@JonClements What's the speed of mydata.extend([''] * (8 - len(mydata)))?
its an --output that generates typescript ... if not specified it runs a websocket server ... if specified it outputs to stdout, if specified with a path it outputs to a file
16:38
mydata is literally just ['a', 'b']?
Pretty sure argparse can't do that (unless you write your own ParseAction class or whatever)
@PM2Ring not sure if I've made this a fair test but...
In [92]: %timeit mydata[:].extend([''] * (8 - len(mydata)))
391 ns ± 2.26 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)
wim
wim
@Aran-Fey it can
Proof? (:
i could just collect_extra or whatever its called right and then manually parse it
wim
wim
16:40
I already posted the answer.
I just got thanked for pointing someone to the FAQ and how to ask (in a bit of a pleasant shock right now)
wim
wim
3 mins ago, by wim
@JoranBeasley you want nargs='?'
@PM2Ring since extend mutates the original list - there's probably a better way of timeit I'm not aware of apart from a naive shallow copy it each time...
@JonClements I think compare it to mydata[:] + [''] * (8 - len(mydata))
lol thanks @wim ... i think your right
16:41
In [93]: %timeit mydata[:] + [''] * (8 - len(mydata))
349 ns ± 10.1 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)
@wim Eh, that's cheating. You can't choose the 2nd default value; it just uses None
I guess the extra time makes sense, since .extend has to update the original list, rather than just making a new one.
I'm on a very slow desktop anyway... so I imagine stuff can change given a decent system...
wim
wim
@Aran-Fey None is what they said they wanted
I don't see how that is "cheating".
6 mins ago, by Joran Beasley
ie if its not present i want one default value(False), if its specified without a value i want a different default value(True), and if its specified as --option=Hello i get Hello
True != None
wim
wim
16:44
12 mins ago, by Joran Beasley
hey guys does anyone know offhand how to use argparse to do --option or --option=value or if its not used at all to just be None or False (like store_true ... but allow a user value)
easy fix anyway
if args.option is None:
    args.option = 'mydefault'
Let's agree to close the question as unclear :P
on a system that actually has some proper calculation abilities:
In [90]: %timeit [*mydata, *[''] * (8 - len(mydata))]
317 ns ± 2.31 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)

In [91]: %timeit mydata + [''] * (8 - len(mydata))
287 ns ± 6.02 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)

In [92]: %timeit mydata[:].extend([''] * (8 - len(mydata)))
391 ns ± 2.26 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)

In [93]: %timeit mydata[:] + [''] * (8 - len(mydata))
349 ns ± 10.1 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 1000000 loops each)
OTOH, when you do need to modify the original list, mydata.extend(stuff) has an advantage over mydata += stuff in that you can call it inside a function on a global mydata. OTOOH, maybe you shouldn't be doing that anyway. ;)
although that's probably not a fair test either and it's currently doing some ETL stuff... so ummm... it's all so mostly close anyway it doesn't matter...
/waits to see how many hands @PM has.
16:47
I just personally wouldn't go for the append '' in a loop to fill the size...
I would have upvoted the nargs='?' IMO.
wim
wim
@Aran-Fey you wrong regardless
parser.add_argument('--option', nargs='?', const='yeah baby')
allows to specify user default
@piRSquared I'm definitely not a Motie.
S'pose there's also [b or a for a, b in zip_longest(mydata, [''] * 8, fillvalue='')] ...
@wim Ok, I can't find any faults in that
16:52
@PM2Ring good to know. Maybe H was for head and you you bicephalous.
wim
wim
Dear sir. I wish to #unsubscribe from Jon Clements' "list extend micro-optimizations" newsletter
Starred not for agreement but for recognition of humor (-:
before you do... it might also be viable to leave it to the csv writer... using something like: csvout = csv.DictWriter(file_like_obj, fieldnames=list(range(8)) then just use csvout.writerow(dict(enumerate(mydata))...
then you get the added bonus of getting an exception if there's more than 8 columns...
[*islice(chain(mydata, cycle([''])), 8)] :)
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