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16:06
stackoverflow.com/questions/43350587/… duplicate, listed in comments, I was dumb and voted mcve before realizing it was an obvious dupe
@davidism I trust you. :)
thanks
Someone on Physics has linked to an old xkcd What-If. So naturally, I linked the relevant forum thread in a comment. :) physics.stackexchange.com/questions/325733/…
In Australia, we measure fuel economy in litres per 100 km, or as I like to think of it, picohectares. :)
Also, the answer that just says "pay attention to indentation" and then re-posts all the code, without pointing out where the issue was.
And has its own indentation error on the 1st line! :facepalm:
16:15
@AndrasDeak Nick Coghlan is indeed some dude - but a very significant one in the Python ecosystem and a long-time core developer who has also given a lot to the Python communities in various ways (including serving as a PSF director).
I was being kind of flippant earlier, but I do trust core developers to accurately describe the future roadmap of the language. I don't need the BDFL's rubber stamp.
I'm pretty sure that Andras was being humorous; Nick's name was mentioned here a few weeks ago.
OTOH, Andras wasn't active when Nick's name was mentioned.
Feb 6 at 7:49, by Antti Haapala
FWIW, Nick Coghlan is a major core Python developer, so he knows what he's talking about. ;) — PM 2Ring 6 hours ago
I didn't know who he was prior to this conversation, to add to the anecdata.
The only contributors I know the names of are Guido and Tim.
@PM2Ring yeah, I knew his name, and the article I linked to made it obvious that he's an authority. I did google him just to cross-check my impression of him, and wasn't disappointed
cc @holdenweb :)
but yes, I wasn't there during that discussion in February
I think I've seen Nick's name in PEPs and mailing list archives
16:23
^ his name has come up several times in the past few weeks
@PM2Ring I have him mentally categorized as "has a lot of points"
24
Q: "Ever change the value of 4?" - how did this come into Hayes-Thomas quiz?

Michael GrünewaldIn 1989 Felix Lee, John Hayes and Angela Thomas wrote a Hacker's test taking the form of a quiz with many insider jokes, as “Do you eat slime-molds?” I am considering the following series: 0015 Ever change the value of 4? 0016 ... Unintentionally? 0017 ... In a language other than Fortran? Is...

@holdenweb Ha, that's terrific. You can change literal values in Python but looks like Fortran makes it a lot easier.
It's probably a blessing that it can only happen in modern languages if you've removed all the clearly labeled foot-shooting safeties first
is it considered good or bad practice to program to account for possible future contingencies?
I feel that it can be either good or bad, depending on a number of factors.
16:37
We want to apply flake8 to Flask's code, but every time we try it results in a huge PR that breaks all other PRs. What would be really cool is to detect what lines changed and lint only those lines.
Including but not limited to 1) the likelihood of the contingency you're planning for; 2) the amount of hoop-jumping you have to go through to cover this contingency, compared to what you would have done if you hadn't covered it
Can't find anything about making flake8 run against only changed lines though.
@holdenweb That reminds me of this piece from Andrew Barnert "It doesn't make sense for a = 2 to turn the number 1 into the number 2 (that would give any Python programmer way too much power to change the fundamental workings of the universe);... "
"You aren't gonna need it" (acronym: YAGNI) is a principle of extreme programming (XP) that states a programmer should not add functionality until deemed necessary. XP co-founder Ron Jeffries has written: "Always implement things when you actually need them, never when you just foresee that you need them." Other forms of the phrase include "You aren't going to need it" and "You ain't gonna need it". == Context == YAGNI is a principle behind the XP practice of "do the simplest thing that could possibly work" (DTSTTCPW). It is meant to be used in combination with several other practices, such as...
@corvid I always try to keep implementation small and extensible, having in mind possible routes
The best possible scenario is when you have two equally correct / concise / readable approaches, and you choose the one more likely to be amenable to future requirements changes. But things in reality are rarely so evenly matched.
16:40
in my case, I have a function returning the async process it calls. I feel it's necessary to return the process in case we have need to await it's completion, or the completion of several concurrent processes, but that's not currently immediately necessary
It can be a rational tradeoff to sacrifice concision for modifiability, but it's real hard to find the exchange rate.
@corvid I think in this case it makes sense
YAGNI, as in PM's link, is a result of developers overestimating how valuable it is to prepare for the future
what's YAGNI mean?
You Aint Gonna Need It
16:43
Hmm do I really have to manually format the objects when building a json string? I would've thought the library would automate this if I just give the names of the variables to "store".
@paul23 json.dumps should give you a valid json string, with no formatting required on your part.
It might not be human-readable since it won't have newlines or indentation, but it will still be valid
Actually there might be a parameter to make it more human-readable. I forget.
Or, are you saying, "It's a pain that I have to do json.dumps({"X":X, "foo": foo, "bar": bar}) when I'm trying to serialize the state of local variables"?
@Kevin Well raise TypeError(repr(o) + " is not JSON serializable") for any custom object. And a bit of googling only showed me a solution that simply used str for that.
With o hence being a custom object.
I'm pretty sure there's a dunder method you can implement in your custom class so it becomes serializable
Python objects are not automatically serializable no. There's no dunder method either.
@paul23 json.dumps(obj, default=unicode)
16:47
@Kevin True, but good programmers tend to develop an instinct for it. You don't go out of your way to make everything extensible, but you make stuff extensible when it's simple to do so and doesn't interfere with the general flow of the code. Eg, if you're writing a function to determine the distance between two 2D points, you make it easy to enhance it so it can handle 3D points, but you don't bother making it easy to change the exponent in the Pythagorean formula. :)
Hmm, I must be misremembering about the dunder.
Some frameworks use a custom encoder that recognizes a custom dunder method.
you can provide default params which takes a callable, its gonna be used for all objects that cant be serialized
@PM2Ring Yeah, I was going to say. YAGNI is a good rule of thumb, which, like all rules of thumb, can be ignored if you're sure you know what you're doing.
That's a shame, would've thought there would at least be a helper that prevents "bad formatting" of the json; but it seems the standard library for this is quite barebones.
16:49
What is "bad formatting"?
Also, how should a datetime be serialized by default, and why? (Just an example of why there's not defaults for everything.)
@Kevin There's the json default method parameter.
Most of the time, you don't actually want to dump all the attributes for an object. What about sensitive data? What about "private" values? What about properties? What about nested relationships? Etc.
Well something that doesn't follow the json syntax? - IE my repr would return something like NAME(var=value, var2=value2). Now I'd love a helper method that allows me to state: "serialize class NAME using variables var and var2"
You can do that. Pass a default function or write a custom encoder to handle that case.
16:51
And not have to worry that the correct syntax uses {} and : for objects - that's "implementation" of the serializer.
And you don't have to worry about the characters, you output simple Python data and the library does the formatting.
I'm pretty sure that I was thinking of pickle, which does support various dunder methods for changing how things are serialized and/or deserialized.
The tricky thing about writing custom json serializers for your classes is, how do you write a custom DEserializer that operates free of ambiguity?
Wait I'm not saying it's impossible, or even hard - I just state that compared to many other libraries (argparse as example) this feels really barebones where you have to do a lot yourself.
Like if you have a rule saying "deserialize my class instances so they follow the format {"type":"MySpecialClass", "attributes":{"spokes":23}}", then what happens if you just happen to have a regular old dict in your json that just happens to have keys type and attributes? Whoops, you're going to convert that into a class instance when it was supposed to stay a dict
Another good reason it doesn't support it by default. For example, how do you serialize an ordered dict in such a way that the deserializer knows that it's an ordered dict?
@paul23 there are a lot of libraries out there that let you describe complex objects. See for example marshmallow.
16:57
its quite annoying however that datetime is not working with dumps by default
@paul23 Yeah it's a bit spare, but having a small public interface can be a good thing.
(Not that you ever really implied that it was bad)
But what should it dump? A timestamp? Seconds or milliseconds? An integer or a float? ISO-8601? With or without timezone? Converted to UTC?
iso
iso is a standard isnt it?
So are the others.
nope, ISO is a standard
17:00
ISO is a standard, I think we agree on that. It doesn't change the issue.
I think by default it should be an ISO 8601, timezone or not depends if date is tz-aware
simple solution
I disagree. I think it should be a timestamp in milliseconds, as that's easier to use with JavaScript APIs.
Good luck getting enough of a consensus to actually get this merged in.
@davidism Hmm good point there davidism, actually made me realise that pickle might indeed have its merits. - It's just that human readable -> easier debugging -> easier to maintain -> "better"...
It seems reasonable to me that the only dumpable types should be the ones directly representable in json: lists, dicts, strings, numbers, booleans, and null/None. Anything that needs to be converted to a list or dict or string or number in order to be serialized, can't be unambiguously de-serialized, so they're disqualified.
^ that
17:04
I bet that 99% of libraries out there that define their own encoders and use ISO 8601
and its ALL because one guy thinks that timestamp is better, because of javascript
yuppie
In an alternate universe where datetimes are serializable, our evil doubles are complaining "Why does json.loads(json.dumps(my_datetime)) give me an int? This is dumb"
its not alternative universe, its reality where most of libraries use ISO repr
Isn't there a standard serializing that can also serialize it's custom serialize method (type, conversion etc)?
and if default would stand for ISO, it would be even better because more people would follow the standard
Im sure that a lot of rookies just used default=str
A serialization algorithm that serializes itself... I think that violates, like, Gödel's incompleteness theorems. Or something.
17:06
I've actually never heard of default=str.
I've never seen it but I bet some folks used it this way, because they got "serialization error" :)
@marxin when you recieve a string, how do you decide whether it should be a string or a date? Do you try to parse every string? That's slow. What if it should be a string but looks like a date?
@Kevin Well a turing complete language serializing language should be able to do that?
@davidism im not talking about deserializing
Do you introduce a key tagging system? That's what Flask's session does, but it's non-standard and surprising if you're examining the data.
@marxin but that's the problem, any solution that got into the standard library would have to work both directions.
Otherwise you'd get just as many people confused about why their date that dumped fine doesn't load.
17:08
not really, because thats a limitation of JSON. so say yes, JSON supports a string so why by default shouldnt it call str function on the object?
@paul23 Yeah, I was kinda half-joking. You can easily serialize a piece of code, including the code doing the serializing. But you still need a deserializer that can understand that the data it's looking at contains an algorithm meant to be executed.
Because str isn't an accurate representation of the data.
Anyway, JSON is just for JSON types. There are other libraries that are for describing complex structures.
Here's a simple general-purpose class serializer.
import json

def serializer(cls, names):
    argstring = ', '.join('{{{}}}'.format(s) for s in names)
    fmt = '{}({})'.format(cls.__name__, argstring)
    def serialize(obj):
        return fmt.format(**obj.__dict__)
    return serialize

class Test:
    def __init__(self, a, b, private=None):
        self.a = a
        self.b = b
        self._private = private

t = Test(1, 2, 3)
print(json.dumps(t, default=serializer(Test, ('a', 'b'))))
#output
"Test(1, 2)"
So there's sort of an infinite regression going on where json.loads(s) won't execute custom-defined deserialization, no matter how much metadata you try to cram into s
Use YAML if you want that.
Beware of the security issue.
17:11
@davidism nope, nowadays JSON is used heavily in REST like interfaces and datetime flies around all the time
@marxin you're just going in circles while dodging the issue. I don't think this is going anywhere at this point.
well ,I wont change the implementation
just imo it could use ISO by default
It's a shame YAML never really got off the ground
Sure it did. It's used for configuration in tons of tools.
To descend into semantics for a bit, I posit that if you write custom serializers and deserializers that work nicely on datetimes and such, that's fine, but it's not JSON any more.
17:14
isn't ISO representation of date as string?
@marxin ok, you've made a decision on datetimes. Now do OrderedDicts.
Well for c++ the most well known yaml library doesn't support the standard (round-trip creates a different file).
3
Q: yaml-cpp importing strings from file gives artifacts?

paul23When trying something with yaml-cpp I was stuck at strings.. Especially since they seem to not round-trip well... When I read a string from a file - and then later export that string there seems to be an artifact when exporting.. Ie the string: %YAML 1.2 --- key1: "this is a string" key2: this ...

@davidism luckily ordereddict is working fine with json.dumps by default
it even works as expected ;)
@marxin no it doesn't, because JSON objects are unordered
the fact that the representation outputs in the order doesn't inform how it's interpreted on the other side
I want to say "any proposed changes to the json module should ensure that json.loads(json.dumps(x)) == x for all legal values of x" but I'm not completely sure that that's even true right now
>>> x = (1,2)
>>> json.loads(json.dumps(x)) == x
False
... Nevermind -_-
17:16
there you go
I only have seen YAML used as custom places where only a subset of yaml needed to be supported.
following your logic guys, json dumps on tuple should thrown serialization error
and it should work this way to be honest, consistency is a key
Dear python devs, please remove support for serialization of tuples so I can have a stronger position in this internet argument
Tuples aren't different in data, they're different in semantics.
ah, guys
time to go home
17:18
The fact that loading one creates a list doesn't change how any code using it would work.
see you ;)
*should work - if isinstance(t, tuple):
That's your own fault, not JSON's.
@davidism Agreed, but it's harder to nail down that distinction objectively.
@paul23 JSON stores JavaScript-style strings, numbers, lists and objects (what Python calls dicts). It can also handle the special values of true, false, and null. If you want to store anything else you have convert it to use those components, and how you do that is up to you. So it doesn't really make sense to have a standard way to do it.
Sure, to serialize a class instance you could just use whatever __repr__ or __str__ returns, but you may want something a little more structured, and it wouldn't be easy for a generic library function to decide for you how you want your custom data structured.
17:21
Though there is an important difference: tuples can be used as dictionary keys (immutability is not an implementation detail)
Ah, reminds me of this classic GitHub rant:
The trick can be almost repeated even now with gfortran. Constants are put into their segment and passed by reference to a subroutine. By default, the constant section is read-only, so memory protection error kills the program. — Netch Aug 30 '14 at 6:33
my first (and so far only real) question on SO ^
One might argue that a datetime object and an integer timestamp aren't different in data, only in semantics, so therefore datetimes can be safely serialized just as tuples are
"Why doesn't Flask-SQLAlchemy make all my models serializable?"
I point out that half of that image is the op, and another quarter is the op's responses.
Well, you can't deny the man's enthusiasm.
17:26
Oh, I did deny his enthusiasm, when responding to the email he sent me afterwards.
Get thee behind me, enthusiasm
So Windows is trying to download a ten gigabyte update over the piddly Internet connection I share with my coworkers, thus reducing everyone else's bandwidth to a tenth of its usual value.
There's a "defer updates" checkbox in Control Panel, but I think that only defers the installation of the update, not the download of the update.
Didn't really get a thing from that image... I feel stupid now, let's cry in a corner.
There's a "Metered connection" option in the wifi menu which prevents the download from using more than 10 Kbps, but it also prevents all of my other applications from using more than that. This makes my coworkers happy but me sad.
@Kevin thank you for gifting this to us! I'll leverage it in the future to sunset others' comments - they'll receive some learnings.
So now every message I submit to the chat room takes a minimum of ten seconds to actually show up.
17:34
@paul23 don't tell me you actually read it all?!
If you ever wanted to live free of the fear of being Kevinned, now is your time.
(Oh wait - learnings is nouning, not verbing. I need an assist.)
Surely she adjectived "language"
It bothers me that "quick" and "lonely" and "quickly" are words, but "lonelyly" isn't.
"The man lonelyly sat in the booth at the end of the diner"
17:41
And "lone lily" is fine!
Makes no sense.
The woman, Lone Lily, sat in the booth at the end of the diner
or Sad Keanu's oriental counterpart, Lonely Lee
The two customers at different ends of the diner could have eaten together, but instead cowardlyly remained where they were
Lonnie Lee (born 18 September 1940), born as David Lawrence Rix is an Australian singer, known for his tenure with bands Lonnie Lee and The Leeman and Lonnie Lee and The Leedons. A Pioneer of early Australian rockabilly music, and a performer of more than 60 years, at the peak of his career, Lee had eight top 100 singles on the national charts. Seven of them peaked in the top 40, including three top 20's and two top tens. His highest peaking song on the national charts was a #2. He achieved five Gold Records. He had his last hit with 'Sad Over Someone' in (1969), but still continues to tour and...
@Kevin and sadly Cowardly Lee was too scared to point that out to them
Whoops, that one doesn't work because "cowardly" is already both an adjective and an adverb.
Well, kind of. It's an archaic usage.
18:06
I've been reading a biography on Richard Feynman and he describes how, as a teenager, he would read encyclopedia articles over and over, understanding a little more each time, until everything was clear to him. Does anyone else learn that way? Personally, I don't get very much from reading reference material more than once.
I definitely don't have the patience for that
Or maybe I would, if I stuck to it for longer. Maybe I give up right before dividends would start to kick in.
and if a lot of the material is confusing, it all falls apart
I can't learn if huge chunks are hanging in an empty void of confusion (lpthw yo)
He did throw in a caveat that you can only get knowledge out of an article that's there to begin with. If a concept is so poorly explained that you can't derive it from first principles, then you're not going to squeeze water from that stone.
With a caveat to that caveat being, that you can skip over incomprehensible bits if they're incidental to the main topic
DSM
DSM
A lot of stories like that should come with fine print: "May only work if you're [Richard Feynman, Martijn Pieters, etc.]"
18:11
yup ^
It also worked for his sister, so perhaps s/Richard/a/
I don't know about reading an article over and over, but when I'm learning something totally new I like to read it 3 times. The first time I skim it to get a general overview and an introduction to the jargon. The second time I try to absorb as much as I can but don't get too concerned if some parts don't sink in. And on the 3rd time I fill in the gaps & try to correct the misconceptions I picked up earlier.
dude must've had some survivor's bias
@Kevin perhaps you need to start reading the biography again from the beginning
I see what you did there
18:13
It's funny because the dude himself is all "there's nothing special about the way I think" and every other person interviewed is all "there's definitely something special about the way he thinks"
it's as if really smart people were in any way more qualified to assess whether they think differently from other people
"I see 5d hypersurfaces when I think about multiverse spacetimes, just like anybody else"
He admits that he doesn't really understand how people work, once a few years had elapsed after WWII and nobody had nuked the world into an uninhabitable ice ball.
18:32
is there a straightforward way to compare dictionaries with custom objects in them? I'm getting an annoying memory address mismatch when using assertDictEqual, do I need to add an __eq__ operator for that to work?
Well I read en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffix_tree six times and I was finally able to construct a tree for "BANANA" that's isomorphic to the illustrated tree. Although my branches are in a different order.
DSM
DSM
Being only twice as slow as Feynman PM2Ring is impressive!
@enderland Yeah, __eq__ should do it. And __hash__ if the custom objects can be keys.
I don't want to do that for my... 5 line long class lol :(
the equals method is officially as long as the class now...
DSM
DSM
That seems.. paradoxical
18:36
>>> class A:
...     def __init__(self, val):
...             self.val = val
...
>>> class B:
...     def __init__(self, val):
...             self.val = val
...     def __eq__(self, other):
...             return self.val == other.val
...
>>> {23: A(42)} == {23: A(42)}
False
>>> {23: B(42)} == {23: B(42)}
True
yeah, that worked
DSM
DSM
I sometimes make a _content method and use it for both eq and hash.
@DSM Much better than my usual record, where the thing I'm working on, PM worked on ten years ago, and with better computational complexity.
Raycasters, Games of life, etc etc
DSM
DSM
18:39
I don't want to listen to complaints from either of the guy who did Fizzbuzz in one enormous line or the guy who makes cellular automata dance upon command. :-P
Aw shucks
To be honest, I haven't written much in the way of 3D renderers, although I have done a couple of things that do stereographic projection / anamorphosis. Almost all of my 3D stuff has been code that runs in ROV-Ray.
DSM
DSM
ROV-Ray: the rendering choice of detective dogs everywhere.
Still counts. I only avoid using POV-Ray and similar because I'm deranged and want to see how things are done close to the metal. I won't subject anyone else to that standard.
@PM2Ring my grad work was 3D graphics related stuff.... ughhh
18:44
"Fools!" I shout, driving down the highway in the go kart I constructed from the iron smeltery I constructed from the stone kiln I constructed in my backyard. Cars whizz by me at well over my maximum speed of 15 miles per hour.
virtual reality is cool, though
@DSM Oops! It's getting rather late here, and my proofreading skills are fading away. :)
@PM2Ring whoooooah
photoshopping stuff before it was cool
scary-talented people are scary
DSM
DSM
@AndrasDeak: the picture doesn't do it justice, it's enormous. I didn't even notice until it was pointed out to me.
well if you click on it, it expands to something like 1:1 ;)
30k*30k pixels
18:51
The Ambassadors always struck me as the Renaissance equivalent of using cool new technologies in one's work of media because it's cool and new, not because it lends to the quality of the work. Like putting CGI aliens into Star Wars remasters.
It would have been cool if the skull was, like, slyly inserted into the pattern of the carpet or something. But nope, it's a weird floating slanty thing.
DSM
DSM
I'm not sure that comparison has ever been made before, so point to you.
@AndrasDeak I haven't seen the original, but I have seen this modern homage: artgallery.nsw.gov.au/prizes/archibald/2010/29061
@DSM I suppose that would be even more impressive in real life then to move to the right spot
wim
wim
If you implement a custom __eq__ you should implement a custom __hash__.
otherwise bad things happen
18:59
wim comes and buries you in the ground
So I've got an O(n log n)ish algorithm to create a suffix tree, but wikipedia says I can do it in linear time... I wonder how many times I have to read the article before its secret is revealed to me.
that's what I think about, lol
oh FFS don't answer that
wim
wim
19:03
@DSM LOL
answered to anger the SO elitists.
@wim I thought it was the other way around: You can have a custom __eq__ without a __hash__, but if you have a custom __hash__ you really should have a __eq__.
wim
wim
@PM2Ring both or neither.
@wim job well done
If a class does not define an __eq__() method it should not define a __hash__() operation either; if it defines __eq__() but not __hash__(), its instances will not be usable as items in hashable collections. If a class defines mutable objects and implements an __eq__() method, it should not implement __hash__(), since the implementation of hashable collections requires that a key’s hash value is immutable (if the object’s hash value changes, it will be in the wrong hash bucket).
"If you don't implement eq, you should not implement hash" implies "if you implement hash, you should implement eq" but not necessarily "if you implement eq, you should implement hash"
19:07
Woop, only 1 week to go until done with project you guys
Projects can be done???
sign me up!
wim
wim
oh, that's true, mutable types may want to implement __eq__ but should not generally implement __hash__
[insert picture here of that one cartoon where the guy has a grim realization]
wim
wim
there are built-in objects which implement __hash__, but not __eq__, though.
19:09
@wim yeah, that's my case actually, I have a smalll data object but the contents change a fair bit
wim
wim
so it's not a hard and fast rule
* assigned to a different project
Can't find a clean template but I was thinking of knowyourmeme.com/memes/overconfident-alcoholic
Talking about __hash__ reminded me of this trick which can be used when you have to deal with JSON objects that contain duplicate keys, which for some bizarre reason the JSON standard doesn't forbid. Fortunately, such monstrosities are rare, but they do occur, and we occasionally get SO questions about them.
class NotStr(str):
    def __hash__(self): return id(self)

print({NotStr('spam'): i for i in range(4)})
#output
{'spam': 0, 'spam': 1, 'spam': 2, 'spam': 3}
wim
wim
19:25
hmm, I have a feeling CPython string interning might screw you up with that
also, ewww.
@wim I don't think it does, because they aren't strings, even though they inherit all the str methods (including __eq__) apart from __hash__.
d = {NotStr('spam'): i for i in range(4)}
print([s == 'spam' for s in d])
print([(d[k], id(k)) for k in d.keys()])
#output
[True, True, True, True]
[(0, 3071986732), (1, 3071986796), (2, 3071986860), (3, 3071986924)]
> In other words, exactly what I wrote, not something else.
When you tell them to do one thing and they do something completely different and complain that it didn't work.
sorry...try again
@davidism That's pretty exasperating.Especially when they then tell you that their actual code is nothing like the code they posted in the question, so they had to change your suggestion to make it fit.
rtfm, unlikely to help future readers, one-word answer stackoverflow.com/questions/43354156/…
user6845426
19:40
I'm doing some reading on Tkinter... I've come across this site: spider.wadsworth.org/spider_doc/spider/docs/python/spipylib/… . The page reads: The example below uses the Python Imaging Library (PIL) to read SPIDER images into Python ... Out of curiosity, does anyone know what is referred to as a SPIDER image
@AndrasDeak I don't see how it's POB, though. Pity we don't have "Lacks minimal understanding"...
user6845426
Google gave me images of spiders, which I hope thats not what they are referring
@PM2Ring yup
@dipper I'm guessing it's referring to the system described at spider.wadsworth.org
On account of the url
user6845426
ah
19:43
@dipper You didn't even need to Google. Just going up the URL path would've led you to spider.wadsworth.org/spider_doc/spider/docs/image_doc.html
user6845426
sorry
Why do you want to do stuff with electron microscopy image data?
'Cause electron microscopes are neat, I wager
another set of weird image file formats...I've got a bad feeling about this
(actual expected answer: "I don't, I just came across this page while researching how to get Tkinter to display images in formats other than .gif and .pgm")
19:47
I hope dipper doesn't come across a project involving hdf5 files :P
That page is the fifth google hit for "tkinter image", so it would be easy to come across without seeing the larger context
electron microscopes are great by the way
user6845426
I don't, I just came across this page while researching how to get Tkinter to display images in formats other than .gif and .pgm
One time in college we got to try out the electron microscope in science lab and we looked at a preserved housefly but we zoomed in too far and when we zoomed back out there was sort of a dent in the fly that wasn't there before. I can't remember if we poked it with the lens, or if it caved in because of the raw kinetic power of all those electrons.
Probably the first one because electrons aren't very heavy
xray microscopes are pretty cool too. And they were co-invented by physicist Albert Baez, father of Joan, and uncle of John.
19:50
this one time at college...
yup, electrons don't dent flies
Well idk you never know when the lads in the science dept decide to add a death ray attachment to the microscope
electron beams that is
whatever dents stuff is actually denting it with electrons, mainly
the only thing stopping your computer from falling through the floor is Coulomb repulsion
At the microscopic level the entire idea of things impacting one another kind of gets wobbly
yes, but high-energy stuff don't exert a diffuse force: they poke holes
that's high kinetic energy before someone tells me that stationary protons have large resting energy
19:55
I don't know enough about physics to well-actually you on the topic
Now reading about Coulomb Barriers... It's interesting to me that nuclei will repel one another, seemingly even if the atoms as a whole both have net zero electric charge.
I guess this is because electrons are not in the nucleus, insofar as an electron has a position at all
it has, very much
and electrons' typical orbital radii are ~1000x larger than the radius of the nucleus, if I remember correctly
well, the hydrogen atom has a typical radius of the Bohr radius: 0.529 angstroms, 0.0529 nanometers
I always chalked up the tendency of computers to not fall through floors to one of the nuclear forces
yeah, it usually doesn't get to that as far as I know (which could be wrong, among other things I'm not a things-don't-fall-throughologist)
it's electron clouds that meet first
7 hours of my music shuffling , not one Nier Automata song :( I'm so sad RNG wants to play games
Sounds reasonable to me
20:06
ugh, tox is so great once it's configured but I'm having a huge pain getting there
@Kevin oh, and the Coulomb barrier is also partly the reason why radioactive decay (alpha-decay, that is) leads to products with very high energy
in alpha-decay you spawn a He nucleus right outside the old nucleus, and then you have two positively charged clumps which repel each other a lot
@Kevin Some electrons do have a high probability of being in the nucleus: the s-orbital electrons. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… which has some cute animated 2D diagrams. "This antinode means the electron is most likely to be at the physical position of the nucleus (which it passes straight through without scattering or striking it), since it is moving (on average) most rapidly at that point, giving it maximal momentum."
@ZeroPiraeus....is that you? :P
@DSM will be displeased
cbg then
20:15
@AndrasDeak Why?
his data sense will be tingling now that your avatar has changed
Mar 28 at 23:28, by DSM
@user2357112: did your avatar change recently? Something's flagging my "there's been a disturbance in the Force" sense, and that's my prime suspect.
Ah. It's only for a couple of weeks (or four, potentially).
you have my blessing :P
Working with media is slightly annoying because I feel like I've seen the same stock trailers so many time at this point
Strongly tempted to bounty this answer if the Q survives closure. I think it deserves a Reversal badge, frankly.
20:23
nooooooooooooo
what's wrong with you people???!?!?
that's the SO equivalent of Jersey Shore
"look how bad this is, haha, let's watch more"
haha
that sounds exactly like Jersey Shore justification
just turn it off
I swear, nothing feels better than finally tracking down and fixing a bug that took a few days. :D
...well actually.... ;)
20:29
On the contrary, not being able to find a random bug drives me insane :D
@AndrasDeak well of course watching anime feels better, or if the Leafs won the cup (I would imagine that would feel better). Oh when something fits perfectly.
It annoys me to no end that "escaping" format-curly-braces is not done by "\" but by double curly braces.
but look at how mesmerizing this is {{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}
wooooooooo
you can keep staring at it and it almost moves
Interesting; I much prefer doubling to escape parenthetical-type marks. I can't help seeing that they're visually unbalanced when they're backslash-escaped.
@paul23 be thankful that there's a way to escape them in the first place :P
@MooingRawr ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Doubling quotation marks to escape them, on the other hand (as ISTR Visual Basic does), is barbaric.
20:37
matlab does that too, it's torture when you put together a command containing a string that is to be passed to eval :P
DSM
DSM
@AndrasDeak: oh, I noticed. Z to some kind of phi? I noticed.
It is indeed some kind of φ.
@AndrasDeak (っ・ω・)っ
@ZeroPiraeus didn't the color change too?
the Z was definitely (?) black, but the burgundy (?) is suspicious to me too
20:45
No, the colour scheme is the same.
D:
I'll continue to believe in the alternate factuality of your changed colours
It's possible that the colours are different in the Manhatan universe ;-)
So, when do you think world war 3 will begin?
I'm sure we'll notice
Now with trump as president I think ww3 will begin in no time.
20:54
we try not to bring scary politics here
I love you, you love me, we're a big happy family.
and on that bomb shell, I'm going to leave early today have a nice day \o Jays home opener tonight take care :D
\o rbrb
uh lol did pycharm move the "run this file button" somewhere obscure?
As far as I can tell, the timeline is:
- Britain declares war on Spain
- NATO collapses
- The EU collapses
- Putin invades Ukraine
- Trump nukes Damascus
- … etc.
@MooingRawr rhubarb
We should start a betting pool about who beats who and with how much during ww3.
20:58
Please don't bring scary politics here.
act like normal people and shout at your facebook friends instead :P
user6845426
yeh ww3 is a depressing thought
But I don't have any facebook friends. And I gave up shouting at people on Twitter because really, how does one compete?

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