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DSM
DSM
Tuesday morning cabbage for all.
cabbage \o
\o cbg DSM, hows the injury?
wher you from Andras?
15:07
@KevinMGranger yeesh
@MYGz Europe
Secret Country?
if it was public, it would be in my profile:P
hehe
How many migrated to Canada? The website crashed I heard?
rbrb
@MYGz thats because they don't use webscale mongodb
15:28
Oh my god he mashed up YMCA with the music from the end of inception
I love this man
I'll just replay Let It Go:D
@KevinMGranger Oh my goodness - this is 14 hours??!
It's 1 hour?
Ah, 14 hours ago
15:33
Oh that
DSM
DSM
@MooingRawr: Still sore, but just ordinary post-injury sore. Be fine in a few weeks.
Because "14 hours" totally doesn't make me think it's the length of the track
Yeah, that's misleading. My eyes went to the timestamp at the end of the visualization but only because I'm used to soundcloud
That's where I expected it... but it wasn't there at the time...
Hm. Do I want a Kindle e-reader for $20? woot.com/?ref=cp_gh_w_1
15:38
misread that as "re-reader" and got very confused
"refurbished" always sounds scary
Tal
Tal
hey guys
@Tal cabbage
Tal
Tal
where?!?
@KevinMGranger oh my cabbage, I just hit the second track. I'm laughing so hard at work right now.
@Tal please read the room rules, you'll find cabbage nearby
Tal
Tal
15:46
@AndrasDeak cbg. Potato?
@AndrasDeak as great as salad is, we typically don't greet new people with it, or tell them to read the rules before they break one.
Just let them discover it on their own.
@davidism Sorry, my notion was that everyone should read the rules first when they go to a new room (on their own accord), and greeting them with cabbage quickly reveals if somebody has failed to do this. Which often leads to the usual "-need help pls -just read the rules" and "-link to fresh question -please don't" skits. I'll refrain from doing so in the future.
Everyone should read the rules, yes. Everyone doesn't need to be "tested" when they get here though. It's way more satisfying when they just find it, trust me.
@Tal anyway, what's up?
Tal
Tal
@AndrasDeak too late - your carelessness has forced me to learn a new language :)
I'm not arguing, I just thought I'd explain my motives:)
Tal
Tal
15:51
I wonder if salad will replace Python one day
only if it starts supporting asyncio
Tal
Tal
while Avocado: print "Cabbage!"
DSM
DSM
I may switch to SaladLang after typing catches on. #getoveritalready
Tal
Tal
too early in the day to throw a question at you fine Peaches and Pears?
DSM
DSM
Preferably one with a nice itertools solution.
Tal
Tal
15:55
that's up to you guys
I don't know if this can be solved with programming or not, but here goes
sounds scary
Tal
Tal
lol
I work for a company that provides internet to very remote locations
the bandwidth we provide is very limited - someone around 1Mbps
the people at these locations would be extremely happy if we could provide netflix over this link, but live streaming for multiple simultaneous streams at 1Mbps doesn't work
we are hoping to figure out a way to preload a server with several terabytes of encrypted, netflix content, put the box on site, and somehow redirect network traffic so that instead of streaming from netflix, people stream from our local server
(itertools might be out of the question)
Tal
Tal
haha I think so
we're not trying to rip netflix off, or mess with copyright laws - people would still need a netflix account to view the content
any ideas?
You're asking about how to copy netflix's content. That's basically the definition of messing with copyright laws.
Tal
Tal
15:57
not copy - cache
maybe copy
Definitely copy.
Tal
Tal
well
There's a high chance that it's defined in the TOS of netflix whether it's OK to do this
If your company can partner with netflix to develop such a technology, sure, maybe that could work. Otherwise, good luck with the legality of it all. (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal or financial advice, etc.)
Annoyingly, I suspect that each stream will be encrypted on a per user basis. Hence why nobody has successfully (and legally) cached their content before
Tal
Tal
15:58
nightshift has
which is why my boss is insisting we do it
cause it can be done
something something webscale;D
Tal
Tal
webscale?
sorry, we've been joking about that before you came
Hmm, interesting. Never heard of that before
And why many ISPs are foaming at Netflix because they can't cache their content.
16:00
If you want to cache netflix content you can always just get a Netflix Appliance
Tal
Tal
we have nowhere near the "1.2 Gbps of inbound traffic for a 12-hour period"
we have 1/1000th of that
Buy a bigger network :D
Tal
Tal
satellites. Google probably couldn't afford a 1Gbps satellite network
lay some fiber direct to Netflix?
Tal
Tal
we're talking about multiple sites all over North America. Can't lay fiber to each one :(
no ideas on caching netflix? Is it even theoretically possible?
I know we'd need to deal with SSL somehow
maybe redirect DNS queries to netflix to our internal server
they'd get a cert warning, but that's not that big a deal
16:03
So you'd want to perform a man in the middle attack?
Tal
Tal
I guess, except we'd tell people that's what we're doing
That won't be future-proof if DNSSEC catches on, but that's a big if
Tal
Tal
not trying to be sneaky about it
Is there a Python question hiding in here?
Just Trust Usâ„¢
DSM
DSM
16:04
from middleman import Interceptor
This is definitely out of the scope of this room but it's fun to spitball
Tal
Tal
I dunno - is there a programming way to approach this?
@DSM can we monkeypatch Intrepid, lacking an Interceptor?
If there is, you'll probably want to hire a consultant for this, and probably a lawyer
@AndrasDeak groan
Tal
Tal
16:05
ya - the boss isn't gonna go for that
he needs a solution
I don't want to be monkeypatched.
Lazy solution: camrips
It's not that bad, you just wear an eye patch with a monkey drawn on it
Tal
Tal
haha
@KevinMGranger that's already halfway to piracy
16:07
@Tal let's put this in perspective, there's an entire company whose business is based off of this, and you're asking a random programming language room how it's done.
cbg
Tal
Tal
I'm asking for ideas
@idjaw cabbage
The idea being offered is that this is not the best place to ask :) None of us know enough about how netflix streams work
Tal
Tal
anyone know of a better place to ask?
netflix wasn't exactly helpful when I talked to them
twice
16:08
heh, imagine that
Tal
Tal
lol
they don't even have a support email
Anywhere that deals with the netflix api?
Tal
Tal
What can the API do? Anyone ever deal with it?
you definitely posed the question from the wrong angle. The question isn't "how can we man in the middle your content", it's "how can we get an Open Connect appliance for extreme low-bandwidth links"
Tal
Tal
@KevinMGranger good point
16:10
Unless by "not helpful" you mean "sorry, nothing we can do" not "don't you dare do that"
Tal
Tal
I should ask them that
they said it was impossible to cache their content. When I told them another company was already doing it, they were super surprised and said they knew nothing about it. Clearly someone at netflix must know these guys are doing it
now they do:D
Tal
Tal
lol
I have a feeling the reply to even the most nicely worded request is going to be "we're not going to bend over backwards to accommodate you for nothing". Ask your boss how much you've got in the budget to negotiate a licensing deal with Netflix.
Tal
Tal
budget...
wouldn't that be nice...
16:12
Couple million per quarter ought to do it.
Tal
Tal
@Kevin Laurel
Sounds pretty cheap if I'm honest.
So your boss wants a solution to an impossible problem, whose only solution is actively worked against, and doesn't want to spend any money on it at all. How important is this to them, and how important is it to your job security?
Tal
Tal
k - well the idea of talking to netflix again, this time asking them about using openconnect with low bandwidth links is as good as I've got, so I think I'll try that
lol - management - what are you gonna do?...
Communicate the limitations, and if they don't care and it'll reflect poorly on you, find a new job?
Tal
Tal
16:15
I'm not gonna lose my job over it - I just have to convince my boss somehow that even though other companies are doing it, it's impossible for us to do
One that might not get you arrested.
Every time I tell somebody they should quit their job in order to stand up for their principles, they tell me they don't want to become a penniless beggar. Somebody's got to make an example of themselves one of these days.
Or if they'll lose interest quickly and change priorities, just keep doing what you're doing
DSM
DSM
I'd be a little surprised if Netflix didn't use mild user-specific encryption, and that would break application-independent cache techniques.
wim
wim
@PM2Ring Yes. This was not crap, though. It was one of those rare well-written questions from newish users, and it was very obvious that it had nothing to do with the dupe target. And T3 has a display picture wielding the gold python hammer. :-\
16:16
I'm no crypto expert, but there's got to be a way to cache half of it that's decryptable with an ISP-specific key, and stream the rest keyed to the end-user.
Oh, I can think of a couple of ways I'd give it a shot. But you know, I like travelling without being detained :)
Tal
Tal
@IntrepidBrit pfft - freedom is overrated :)
"Netflix encrypts with single key, sends to cache box -> cache box encrypts with user-specific key, sends to user -> user decrypts" seems entirely feasible, as long as you can force Netflix to do whatever you want.
@Tal I get the impression your boss will as we write be trying to persuade developers to work on his project: "We are going to be the next Netflix/Facebook/Google and you will get a share in the profits so it makes sense to work for nothing."
We're assuming a whole lot here
Tal
Tal
16:19
@holdenweb developerS? lol. I'm it
Obviously I lack details, but I really don't see this as a go-er
Check this: cachevideos.com
Don't know if it will help you or not :D
It will not
Tal
Tal
@MYGz Thanks. I wonder how much they charge
@KevinMGranger no?
16:23
What's netflix open connect. Did you check that?
Tal
Tal
@MYGz ya - requires "1.2 Gbps of inbound traffic for a 12-hour period". We have 1Mbps
I'm gonna talk to netflix to see if there's any way to work with openconnect with a much slower connection
much, much, much, much slower
Honestly? It might be cheaper to just get the additional bandwidth installed.
Tal
Tal
@IntrepidBrit we could have 1.2Gbps if we bought our own satellite... trust me - it's cheaper to start our own Netflix at that point
@IntrepidBrit especially since buying/making a satellite doesn't guarantee you that it won't blow up during launch
Well, that's what satellite insurance is for.
Tal
Tal
16:26
that only applies during actual launch. The facebook one blew up while not launching, and wasn't covered
Okay, is there pre-launch insurance then?
Please stop using has_key, it was deprecated 15 years ago. — Antti Haapala 41 secs ago
I'm talking about on the bit of land pre-satellite. But sure. Go buy a satellite, see if I care.
14.5, but who's counting
I'll only care if you call it IntrepidSpandex
16:28
@KevinMGranger rounds to 15 :D
@AnttiHaapala Whats "Locating: grep has_key"?
>>> x = 14.5
>>> round(x)
14
@KevinMGranger stahp
6-Jun-2002
16:30
You can buy a satellite from red hat: access.redhat.com/products/red-hat-satellite
Once SpaceX really gets it down, I'm sure we'll get SaaS (Satellite as a Service)
>>> round((datetime.date.today() - datetime.date(2002, 6, 6)).days / 365.24)
15
Q.E.D.
lol SaaaS
I just made you use datetime, I'm sorry
@KevinMGranger you should be!
:c
Could have been worse, you could have done it in python2 to prove a point
16:32
@IljaEverilä just got my Anki Overdrive :D
[~]% python
Python 3.5.2+ (default, Sep 22 2016, 12:18:14)
[GCC 6.2.0 20160927] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
alias in interactive shell <3
$ python2
>>> x = 14.5
>>> round(x)
15.0
@AnttiHaapala great, when's the big race?
dno :D
@IljaEverilä told greetings from you :D
Oh no, what did you say? :D
that you're furious because they didn't pick you
16:33
Haha
didn't bother to read the docs typo stackoverflow.com/q/41833430/344286
there were 70 submissions
Furious is a bit strong word for that
@AnttiHaapala Race anyone yet?
@KevinMGranger Shoot, you can even download a satellite
wim
wim
16:37
@AnttiHaapala 3.5.2? ancient.
Had my almost-1-year-old-son on my head eating a chunk of pineapple core. 30 minutes later I just ran my hand through my hair and discovered several chunks of pineapple. Now I remember why I've really been shaving my hair.
3
#dadops
@WayneWerner no, I am in Helsinki... in Microsoft's Flux co-working space, please don't tell anyone ...
16:55
Hot network titles
6
Q: Is "How much underwear?" okay?

AzulIs this correct? I often see "how many pairs of underwear", but this doesn't make sense. How is underwear a pair? There is only 1. I've googled and I've seen both "how much underwear" and "how many pairs of underwear". Which one is correct?

Tal
Tal
had my boss come in while I was online with you guys, and explained to him that what he wanted was impossible for one guy to do. I'm not even sure how nightshift does it. He said we'll have to work with nightshift in that case.
Thanks guys
Room 6, tech advisers.
I should charge for this stuff
My pessimism is free because I have an unlimited supply
DSM
DSM
It's good to hear that asking a random collection of strangers in a Python chat room, none of whom are experts in the relevant fields, proved useful..
17:07
@KevinMGranger Whats your rate? 1 star every hour?
1 cbg/hour
17:25
Hey, too bad I wasn't in the market for a $200 xbox one with Gears of War. Right this second.
@WayneWerner 500gb isn't enough
really?
just cause Gold games?
Forza was like 50GB
only that
battlefield 1 was close to that too
What was the name of the first satellite to orbit the Earth? Luna 10?
Sputnik, innit?
17:34
Yeah, Sputnik
fired off the space race
Nah. The Moon :D
PJ
Ok yes the moon orbited the Earth before Sputnik but it's anyone's guess what preceded the moon
If we want to get primordial it's real hard to draw a sharp delineation between when Earth was a blobby accretion disk and when Earth was a proper planet with a whole lot of orbiting satellites and/or debris
First man-made satellite (that we know of) was Sputnik
Precision of language \o/
from innit: "git init" (Muscle memory doesn't always serves me well: Raymond Hettinger)
what the heck! My message posted 2 times why?
refresh the page
17:44
your ui bug
SE is currently crumbling
there's some sketchy stuff happening in the Internet. Solar flares?
ozone depletion, this is what it is
[looking to the side at an empty cage labeled "Internet-destroying worm".] Probably should have spaced those bars closer together.
wim
wim
^ meanwhile at stack exchange headquarters
17:50
what's a happening peoples
someone stepped on a cable
damn. got kicked out. server maintenance. How come others were able to chat.
@MYGz you can edit messages
I guess I'll have to ask all my questions here
17:52
Also, it's up again.
guys how do I install Python
Half of the time when my Internet conks out, I'm unable to load new web pages, but I can still chat. My explanation for this is "because DNS resolution"
room6 always works for me even when I don't have internet.
@excaza Try using jquery
17:53
@excaza pacman -S python
Disturbing alternate explanation: I don't need an Internet connection to talk to all of the figments of my imagination.
Disturbing spoiler: I always talk to figments of my imagination
...and they always answer back
Fun fact: did you know it's technically not a mental illness to hear voices as long as it doesn't cause you any distress?
People don't really go to the doctor's office saying "I hear people telling me to do things... And their advice is reliably quite good actually"
I had a bad dream and then I woke up and thanked it was just a dream. Slept back again, had another dream that the previous dream was not a dream :D. True story.
So, when Philippe keeps telling me to eat the entire bag of chips, and I listen, that's OK? But when Dennis tells me to burn the house down and I don't listen, I'm OK?
17:57
I've never had a dream-within-a-dream, unless this is one.
@idjaw yeawh, Dennis is a bitch
lol
Sweet! I'm normal!
Hi Guys, I wrote a python app using the pycrypto library. I used AES256 which turns out to be symmetric. I would like to implement encryption using the public/private key method. Nifi should be able to decrypt it later nifi.apache.org/docs/nifi-docs/components/…
Is there anything other that RSA to do that, looks like NIFI does not support RSA
Sorry I am new to cryptography
@Kevin it's just Martijn holding the line. Sufficiently advanced ninja powers are indistinguishable from a resilient connection.
The bond we share is stronger than TCP/IP
:35277030 sorry, it was Dennis
he is an idiot
Also, last night I dreamt that I was defusing a bomb of sorts, and then I somehow inhaled (?) something and my mouth started bleeding like crazy
Lol. Play lotta games?
We use to play CS at our office 7-8.30 pm after office hours
Seems like everyone has a Dennis
Glad I'm not the only one
18:04
hate that guy
would you say he's... menace?
who is Dennis?
@MYGz Philippe's opposite
@AndrasDeak biggest menace
@khajvah flip Phillippe and you'll fill up Dennis
18:06
When you're about to do something you ask yourself, who would do this? Philippe or Dennis? Then you know whether you should do it or not.
Bah.
oh
Rhubarb.
self.Zzz()
del self
hehe
going in blocking mode
Who's Phillppe?
@MooingRawr good ol Dennis
18:19
Philippe and Dennis are the two primary motivating forces in the universe, typically characterized as motivation to eat the whole bag of potato chips, and motivation to burn everything, yes, burn it all (citation: idjaw 2017)
Where does the Kevin force fit in with all of this?
Or is Kevin merely a "category" of force, a-la centrifugal?
Physicists have not yet formulated a grand unified theory because they have neglected the potato as a fundamental particle.
5
cbg
@KevinMGranger I'm an emergent property. You won't find me in the source code, just in the output.
Ghost code ?
18:28
I'm like a bad penny B-)
Should I get drunk or should I get drunk?
Oh god, could you imagine if Kevin was a ghost code being, with the power of slightly messing with your output? Think about it. 1+1 could report 3, and you would have no idea what's going on, while Kevin just floats around in cyberspace, giggling to the headache hes producing.
The only way to get correct code is to please Kevin, by using KevinScript.... the horror
Don't worry, I'm lawful evil not chaotic evil. I only do bad things in service of a greater cause.
If I prank you with ghost powers, it's because you deserve it or someone paid me to.
But he had an approved tolerance for others; sometimes wondering, almost with envy, at the high pressure of spirits involved in their misdeeds; and in any extremity inclined to help rather than to reprove. "I incline to Cain's heresy," he used to say quaintly: "I let my brother go to the devil in his own way." In this character, it was frequently his fortune to be the last reputable acquaintance and the last good influence in the lives of downgoing men
I think the solution is simple. Since you can only affect the output, we just never have to output anything. Schrodinger cat, but with coding. You think it's working but it may not actually work, in the end you won't know until you see the output. But in our case we don't want an output...
18:37
What is the sound of while(true){;} \n alert("Hello, world!");? These are deep mysteries.
Kevin occasionally solves the halting problem, but only when observed. When unobserved, the program never ends. It's the heisenbug uncertainty principle.
18:58
This is probably easier than I suppose it is, but my mind has deadlocked and I cannot figure this out: Does anyone have a suggesion of how I can convert a one-dimensional dict to a multidimensional one. Example:
From a dict like this: {'a_b_c': 1, 'a_e': 2}
To one where dict['a']['b']['c'] == 1 and dict['a']['e'] == 2 ?
I assume some form of regressional method is in order, but it simply turns to spaghetti when I try to solve it... Thanks to anyone who can help me figure this out.
@Jtig loop over the items, split the keys on '_', and use a defaultdict of defaultdicts to set dict[k] for each k in the split keys?
How do you handle the following: {'a_b_c': 1, 'a_b': 2}
Thanks @AndrasDeak.
Good point, @KevinMGranger, maybe it's a fundamentally flawed idea to start with...
IIRC defaultdict(defaultdict) only gets you two levels deep. It's not completely trivial to make arbitrarily deeply nested defaultdicts.
Not necessarily. If you can find a way to guarantee it won't happen, that's fine. Or even more deviously, you can make a custom dict type with an int property that has __int__ return it :)
19:05
Here's an approach I barely tested or thought all the way through:
def multikey_set(d, keys, value):
    for key in keys[:-1]:
        if key not in d:
            d[key] = {}
        d = d[key]
    d[keys[-1]] = value

start = {'a_b_c': 1, 'a_e': 2}
end = {}
for k,v in start.items():
    multikey_set(end, k.split("_"), v)

print(end)
Result: {'a': {'b': {'c': 1}, 'e': 2}}
Great, thanks!
Apparently for an input of {'a_b_c': 1, 'a_b': 2} it produces {'a': {'b': 2}}. Let's call that "undefined behavior".
That's about as far as I've gotten myself :)
...but this has made me realize I probably need to make the assignment more explicit anyway.
It could also raise a TypeError if it happens to iterate over "a_b" before "a_b_c", so let's call it really undefined behavior
19:21
@Kevin for the record (I used this in the past)
Yep, the old self-referential callable trick.
A couple months back I challenged the room to come up with a one-line version, d = defaultdict(<put anything you want here>), that behaved the same. Don't recall if anyone ever came up with anything
class RecursiveDefaultDict(dict):
    def __missing__(self, key):
        self[key] = x = RecursiveDefaultDict()
        return x
After I disqualified the use of globals().update, which is cheating
"Eucatastrophically" is my word for the day. — Stephen Collings Nov 30 '12 at 18:11
I prefer eucamenthol
19:38
@Kevin I've got a solution that's 90% there.
waffles
d = defaultdict(type('RecursiveDefaultDict', tuple(), {'__missing__': lambda x,y: d.default_factory()}))
# but that only works for one level. yet, when I put
tuple(dict)
# I get a strange
TypeError: 'type' object is not iterable
because tuple needs an iterable, not the type of name dict
A solution for this problem that's 90% there is like a piece of wallpaper that has 90% of the air bubbles pushed out
Yeah, as long as the 10% is behind the couch, it's fine
19:41
Kevin is an unforgiving deity
d = defaultdict(type(A MIRACLE OCCURS...))
I might be misunderstanding how __missing__ is supposed to work, I should have it finished later. I've got this, I swear
the answer shouldn't contain tuple(dict), though
I don't have an answer in mind for this challenge, incidentally. I asked it originally because I couldn't come up with anything that wasn't totally underhanded
19:55
@Kevin d = defaultdict(type('RecursiveDefaultDict', (dict,), {'__missing__': lambda x,y: operator.setitem(x, y, type(x)()) or x[y]}))
How do you load publick key from a file using PyCrypto which has the format "ssh-rsa AAAAB3N ......"
Its the OpenSSH format when I export from pyCrypto
@KevinMGranger Ooh, this is a good one.
It's not quite what you asked for since only the top level will be a defaultdict, but if that doesn't matter, there we go
Luckily as head judge I have been empowered with the discretion to award you full points anyway
wim
wim
recursive default dict again? hasn't this been done to death already

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