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00:31
good night
01:15
Midnight oil cabbage
user6009583
01:28
Can somebody recommend some short exercises to grow skills in python?
Sorry @CoderX, don't know of any python specific exercises. Sure they exist though
01:49
Sooooooo. Kinda quiet at this time.
02:24
thank you!
 
4 hours later…
06:30
I am trying to think of a good reason that would motivate me to learn python
06:58
it's a great general purpose language
big community, lots of libraries to leverage
and you can do nearly anything in it -- perhaps not as elegantly as you would in language X, but language X probably doesn't let you do as many things
+1
if you need to learn any programming language at all, then let it be python, it is one of the most widely used.
no matter where you will land you will find it useful
for example, in one company that did software/OS for mobile phone 10 years ago, they'd use Python to write the applications first - and rewrite an app in C only if Python would prove to be too slow.
07:23
hmm :D
largest Finnish daily went to interview some Americans before the inauguration ceremony in Washington, hope they just mentioned the most outrageous ones
~"Oh Finland, don't you just speak Islam in there" -"Pardon? Islam isn't a language" "I've waited for 30 years for Trump to be elected, he will create lots of jobs to us and make us all rich"
Well, according to the Finns party we'll be speaking islam quite soon...
Another one says: "I don't like Europe, it is Communist. They need to receive instructions from Brussels, there is no freedom. I like Russia more, it's got lower taxes and a strong military"
and continues "the more conservative one is the more one likes Putin. Putin has got right attitude towards gays - they're allowed to walk on the streets, yes, but they're not allowed to spread their gay propaganda in schools"
and... "I think it is dangerous that due to NATO we've got American weapons near the Russian borders, I think we should withdraw them"
Thanks a lot.
that... makes absolutely no sense
07:35
*they interviewed people before the inaugural concert.
reminds me of an article I saw before the election in which this guy said he was voting for Trump because "he doesn't think before he talks, so I know he's being honest"
they certainly defy all logic
tells more about him than trump
I am really worried.
If Trump somehow gets the signal that the people who voted for him were these wackos,
well, it's soon WW3
Isn't that signal loud and clear already?
Jesus...
07:48
As crazy as politics are right now, this conversation is straying too far into the danger zone. Keep the judgments and extreme links out of chat please.
makes sense, agreed
cbg
somebody needs to join Microsoft and write a markdown/template engine for Office
copy-pasting from Excel to Powerpoint gets old really fast
hmm let's remove that one as it could be read wrong
@AndreTerra didn't you know why M$ office is so good!?!
first they had DDE, then OLE...
you're supposed to link and embed your Excel into Powerpoint
don't get me wrong, I think Office is great
08:02
Don't get me wrong, I think Office is absolutely awful.
but embedding 10MB+ workbooks into slideshows doesn't really work
what's better than Office?
Excel is one of the most successful pieces of software ever invented
wat
microsoft didn't invent spreadsheet
they just plagiarized it.
they did it better than anyone else
not even that, but they made their operating system bug-compatible with it :D
there's nothing wrong with improving on existing software
08:05
well. Excel is OKayish. Word, Powerpoint just plain awful.
from your use of "M$" and general tone you show a jaded view of Microsoft that I believe hinders your ability to consider my points from an unbiased perspective, so I guess this is another conversation that must end
haha I've loved Word, I've loved Excel, I've loved Powerpoint.
Word I stopped loving when it started corrupting my documents
Excel is horrifying when it comes to date and time handling
specifically, it had something to do with the formula editor, and that was OLE... so
and Excel's got pretty bad numeric bugs.
It's ok for your basic "I want to sum these cells"
Though as a kid I was in awe when my father did some huge ship building calculations handling workbook in Excel 4.0 :)
Oh the memories
one thing that bugs me is the current row limit of 1M rows :(
Is that because PrevIljaCorp still abuses excel? :)
not only
"And let’s face it — do you really want the bright sparks who work there now, and manage to break lots of perfectly good working code — rewriting the core calculating engine in Excel? Better keep them busy adding and removing dancing paper clips all day long."
@AnttiHaapala this is from 2007 -- can't reproduce on Excel 2010 and probably not on any newer versions
08:19
:D
@AndreTerra yes, but read that comment from Joel ^ if any :D
except they didn't spend their time writing dancing paper clips -- instead they fixed it
this is just MS hate again
@AndreTerra they didn't rewrite the core
they fixed the display code
it's been 10 years
@AndreTerra see, you're saying you're unbiased.
the code is not reproducible
the bug*
08:22
Joel here worked on excel. His work was even reviewed by Bill Gates himself. He started stackoverflow. Stack Overflow focused then on Microsoft technologies, Jon Skeet is the number one user here, and he's the Mr C# :D
An argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ad verecundiam), also called an appeal to authority, is a common type of argument which can be fallacious, such as when an authority is cited on a topic outside their area of expertise or when the authority cited is not a true expert. Carl Sagan wrote of arguments from authority: One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else. == History == Historically, opinion on the appeal to authority has been...
he hasn't been part of the Excel team for 23 years
@AndreTerra no, this is not an argument from authority.
in computer years that's like well over a century
This is an argument that Mr. Joel doesn't hate Microsoft as such
I'm not saying he does
his criticism was valid... in 2007
in fact, it was so valid that the Excel team went and fixed it
now, your criticism of Excel's precision is unfounded
08:24
His criticism still stands - Excel still uses IEEE 754 math. that still stands.
what they fixed was this display bug.
there's an add-in if you need more precision
that's like bashing Python because it isn't strongly typed
Excel isn't really made for high precision calculations with millions of rows
it's made for everyday, spreadsheet-like calculations
for that purpose, it is second to none
it's certainly not perfect and I too can criticize it on many different grounds
excel is supposed to be used by whom?
this is a good question
excel uses binary floats, yet physicists do not use it...
primarily in business / corporate settings, but also academic and personal contexts
but economists, managers, etc.
this is not a bug in the excel, but rather a PEBKAC error.
precisely
you should always check your numbers and they should know that
08:32
@AndreTerra hehe :D btw, the dictionary definition of jaded is "bored or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something."
you will be there eventually
@AndreTerra Excel may be "one of the most popular programs ever written" but that doesn't speak to its quality at all
I spent about ten years pointing out that Windows was a perfectly good platform for open source applications, and I'm not biased against the company. They even employ a core Python commiter, and Visual Studio support for Python is apparently very comprehensive nowadays
I could just never bring myself to use it, the whole system being so cumbersome.
how does it not speak to its quality? if virtually every company in the world uses it and attempts to compete with it have tragically failed, how is it not successful?
you can say that there's significant lock-in from using existing templates etc
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." This type of argument is known by several names, including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi, and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement...
I'm not really fond of XL. Speaking of the devil, have you heard that thing xlwings.org ?
Even if everybody who uses it thinks it's great, that is not an objective measure of quality. And I don't know a single user who doesn't have some complaints
08:39
@holdenweb this certainly doesn't apply. you measure the "success" of a product by how well it sells. heck, if anything, people buy Excel despite having issues with it
The problem isn't that it's not good at what it does, the problem is that it's often used inappropriately.
I'm not saying it's successful because it's universally liked, far from that. I'm saying it's successful because it sells like hot cakes
MS even moved from a proprietary format to a somewhat open format and still nobody has stepped up and made a real competitor to it
It's a terrible environment for systems development - no effective change control mechanisms at all
yeah, but that's certainly not a problem with Excel itself
I am not arguing that Excel isn't popular. I'm arguing that its popularity doesn't speak to its quality
08:42
well, you misquoted me. I said "
Excel is one of the most successful pieces of software ever invented", not one of the most popular as you said
And as someone who's been programming for over two hundred "computer years" I do understand something about software quality ...
And I don't believe I quoted you at all
well, follow the comment I replied to and you'll see it
Besides which, you just equated success and popularity above, so I'm not sure why you are trting now to argue that you were "miquoted" (that was a quote, by the way, hence the quotation marks)
"It's successful because it sells like hot cakes"
cbg all, btw
selling != being popular
Go ahead, tie yourself in semantic knots
08:46
it's not semantic! are you really arguing that a piece of software can sell incredibly well and not be successful? isn't the purpose of MS to write software that people go and buy?
"Excel is one of the most successful pieces of software ever invented"
"you measure the "success" of a product by how well it sells"
So unless you are trying to argue that popularity requires that people like it rather than that people use it you seem to be making a distinction without a difference
I never said the word popular.
you did, misquoting me. go ahead and ctrl+F, first of all
Technically speaking, the purpose of MS is to make money, as with all large corporations. Office and similar products are simply the means to that end
of course you measure the success of a product that is offered not-for-free by how well it sells. certainly this concept doesn't require an MBA to be understood.
I checked. You are correct. Sorry
08:49
thank you
But Excel is still a crappy piece of software :P
I hate it as much as the next guy -- I'm just saying there isn't a better spreadsheet application out there
Excel literally crashed on me while we were having this conversation and I lost about an hour's worth of work
granted I am probably really close to that fine line of "not using it for its intended purposes"
too many add-ins and whatnot
09:02
cbg
I would love to know what cbg means
cabbage, it means, cabbage
are we bashing Microsoft products?
damn, I am late for the party
I got drunk today in the morning
nice way to start a Friday
LAUREL
(accidental caps actually not a problem this time)
09:07
WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING
I wanna become an astronaut
@khajvah specific reasons, or just accidental?
@holdenweb Wanna look at the earth from up there
You aren't perhaps drunk in charge of a keyboard right now, I suppose?
yea but that doesn't matter :D
09:39
Hi
Does anyone know how to package my python files for ARM architecture?
Including the required libraries.
It doesn't have to work on other platforms.
dunno if C based packages will work automatically though
@kh
@khajvah thanks will have a look at it.
10:04
@khajvah I'm starting to be part of a project, that use a lot of arm architecture
one of the engineer is keen to use perl
I'm more of a pythonist
with the embedded python, you've presented here, would it work efficiently on small arm computer?
dunno, I never did embedded python
or embedded anything really
I will need to ask questions then
I am a high level web pleb
fair enough
I know web but I'm not that familiar with a lot of its tech e.g Django or Flask
(for example)
I used to think web is easy but it's really challenging. Pretty sure embedded world has its challenges too but I don't think it's "harder"
10:11
ok
@AndyK that's what girls tell me before going offline when chatting with me :/
or 'k'
ah ! My Ok is just an processing time with my mono neuron - bzz bzz bzzz - work harder, mono neuron , to process that info!!!!
@AndyK k
:D
I'd be honest now that mono neuron has processed the info, I'd have no clues as I've not started that embedded project
and as I'm not highly familiar with web dev framework
I wanna write a tornado based framework
as tornado is too barebones
10:19
or to make it simple, I have no elements of comparison
10:35
Hello guys,
I am trying to get a raspberry pi to work as a modbus server over TCP, My client is a touchpanel and I don´t know how to print out values of registers. The code for the server is the standard asynchronous server code from the pymodbus documentation. Is there anybody who could help me?
10:50
cbg
@AndrasDeak post-truth journalism in Finland too. <3 we were supposed to have independent media here.
We all start with "supposed to have independent media" :P
watch and learn
now the centre party wants to put all of the government roads into a private company (so that opposition cannot raise hell about how the things are handled), then we pumped government money into a mine that is an environmental catastrophe of the worst kind - and the largest daily is saying that "a miracle foreseen by the prime minister indeed has happened, the last quarter of the company becoming profitable"
How might I go about saving sensitive tokens in django(-rest-framework)?
... the last Q is +12M because the price of nickel has gone up and they've got it in stocks, the whole year is ~-130M
not passwords, but password-equivalent
11:03
@Mosho ... :?
encrypted fields in the database
tokens for what?
to access a 3rd party API
to access 3rd-party API... so it means that you need to know them in plain text.
yeah, I would own the key naturally
but they won't be saved in the db as plain text
I read about keyczar
is that the way to go
11:08
Cabbage
you'd use symmetric key / crypto for that most of the time
yeah, sure
but I don't want to reinvent anything
I'm asking what's the standard way of doing it with django
naturally, perhaps that would work.
IDK, a standard way of doing it would be ignoring it.
don't do the standard way if you're worried at all :D
the standard best practice then :P
@AnttiHaapala "we were supposed to have independent media here". You thought that meant "independent of government influence", but instead it means "independent of reality". ;)
11:10
@PM2Ring :D
11:22
'Morning' Cabbage all
@Kevin FWIW, I wrote a word square generator in C, back in the days of the Amiga. Your post prompted me to translate it into Python. It started as a fairly straight translation of my C code from 1999, but now it bears little resemblance to the original. :) gist.github.com/PM2Ring/e7cf275e5b2406e6fdcb8bea55bfc6cf
11:43
One of these days I'll make a World's Most Interesting Man image macro with PM's avatar in the background
@AnttiHaapala love it
recbg
Man, I don't know what's going on. Something awful is happening with all the technology at work. It's all decided to break in the last 24 hours. It's like y2k or the coming of the anti-christ.
*tries to resist obvious political joke*
@AndrasDeak just let it go
Project management question: there is the backlog of stories and each story is divided into tasks, right?
it's not like each story is a single task
cbg, guys, in python, can someone explain to me is there a diference between stream and packing ? I may be wrong but i see it as packing , making a list of specific order, and streaming shifting sed list in specific order and making unique whole element
yeah that was ambiguous
what's stream and what's packing?
12:03
One is a kind of river, the other is how you get your stuff from one house to another?
you might want to provide a syntactically valid python MCVE to prevent any miscommunication
@IntrepidBrit thanks, siri
i will try to write in dpaste , please hold
You are welcome. Anything else IntrepidSiri can help you with today?
12:05
@IntrepidBrit play tika tika
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
@AndrasDeak Aw, shucks. :)
The real question - what kind of Amiga?
12:10
rofl
Haven't seen that before
"No noooo no no no!"
it was on the starboard yesterday I think
FWIW, making word squares by hand was a minor hobby of mine in my younger days, mostly 4x4 squares, but it doesn't take me long to do 5x5 squares. And I can do 3x3's almost instantly. Once I even did a 3x3x3 word cube in my head (during a night of insomnia); I doubt I could concentrate well enough to do that these days. :)
No wonder you can't sleep if you're thinking about stuff like this
@IntrepidBrit An A2000 with an MC68030 CPU, and an OpalVision 24 bit card. I still have it, but it's been packed away for the last 5 years.
12:20
There's a cute 3x3 word square that can be extended into a hypercube of arbitrary dimensions, due to its cyclic nature. Here's the 3x3x3 expansion so you can see the pattern:
EAT ATE TEA
ATE TEA EAT
TEA EAT ATE
And here's one of my favourite 4x4's that I discovered (in my late teens or early 20s)
G I F T
I D E A
F E R N
T A N K
@Danilo what are you exactly trying to do? I'm not sure I can tell
@Danilo (kudos for actually coming back and doing an MCVE though)
@Danilo It looks like you're re-inventing the struct module.
12:29
ok... well (to me) a stream is data you would send via internet packet ( via stream ). Packing would be preparing data into packets that you could send via stream with formating included and data that can be later changed / compressed / manipulated in any way so at the other end the computer would know how to remake data from stream.

it is similar how c++ is using struct, but in binary...
Are you looking for serialization?
BTW, if "that list of elements are all 2 byte integers" then you should be using "{0:016b}".format; similar remarks apply to your hex encoding.
@IntrepidBrit not sure if you are sarcastic or not...
@PM2Ring yes, that is partly what im trying to do , i like to see if i can logicly deduce how some function is made and then remake it ( it is a way that i learn )
@AndrasDeak i will look into and reply after reasearch
@PM2Ring i though that 4 bits are 1 byte ?
No, 4 bits are a nibble (or nybble), a byte is 8 bits.
@PM2Ring thanks, that is good to know :D :P
12:36
@Danilo No, was being sincere mate. Many folks don't bother to come back with an MCVE after we ask.
@IntrepidBrit sorry brackets confused me. Thnx... well mostly i write bad code that bugs at the second step ( i call it exploratory coding, since i dont know what i code mostly of time, i have an idea and then branch from there seeing how far can i push myown functions ) so i rewrite and rewrite and rewrite all the time till i have code that is simple enough and have broad specter of usage :D
@AndrasDeak Sorry, look'd at the serialization, went to the source code and i dont understand a s***
yeah, don't look at the source code:P
you seemed to want to do "take complex thing and turn it into a stream of bits to send to another place" which is exactly my impression of serialization
But if i don't look at the source code i don't know how it works.... :( i will give it one more shot with console.

Yeah that was one of initial ideas, but i ended up stomped because i could not figure out what is the best size to put data in (16-32-64 bits) and where should i put format ( in header, in footer ... ) so i figured out i better ask , because i maybe have wrong terminology or trying to do something that has no concrete logic behind it.
The point of not reinventing the wheel is that you don't need to understand the manufacturing process that is used in the tyre factory
@Danilo well, I did find your terminology very confusing, but then again I'm not familiar with this subject anyway
12:50
I know that most of people just use functions, but i can't ... not because i dont want to , i simply can't , if i dont know it by the "nob" i am afraid of using it. Also, in every day life i have to use analytical type of deduction, so i can know that if fat in milk can be cleaned with acid and poured in natrium based soil to prolong the life of a plant... etc etc. I know that this is stupid, and i know it is pointless ... but that is the only way i can know.
so postgres unique constraint automatically creates btree index
o.O
I wonder if there is a point to create index on the same unique column
is that for the reply for the holdenweb's guy question ?
nope
13:00
ok. sooo i will need some more context to your message... what column, what index, in what link/file ?
postgres seems to keep unique columns in a btree
is there a point to create an index on the same column?
@IntrepidBrit It is the Mr T. Not that T, the other.
@khajvah no, but it is just an implementation detail :D
@khajvah the docs explicitly state that uniqueness constraints automatically create the necessary index, and therefore recommend them over creating a unique index
is there a way to create a model instance with default values in django? I've set default= in the fields but it complains about NOT NULL
@Mosho what's the default value? None?
13:09
no, a number
FloatField(default=10)
Helping the wife navigate a file system tree their group has put together. An actual pair of subdirectories 2 levels deep: /direct+theory/##not_needed##/
It should work then. You are doing something else wrong. How are you creating the the instance?
ModelName.objects.create()
dpaste the actual code
@khajvah thanks, it was a custom field that didn't pass default correctly
13:13
:)
So it turns out I can iterate over every pixel of a full-screen screenshot in half a second, which is much faster than I hoped or needed.
cookies?
@Kevin 1080p?
@AndrasDeak Fun. Yes, you can put bash & regex meta-characters into your pathnames, but that doesn't mean that you should. :)
@AndrasDeak Yeah.
For the time being, yesterday's "how can we detect changing elements on the page while querying as few pixels as possible?" conversation is going to waste. Brute force is just fine.
(or was that on Wednesday? Whatever)
13:17
I think it was yesterday
@PM2Ring I've just got familiar with grep -z and xargs -0 and find -print0 :/
I've been aware of the last one, but hoped I'd never have to use it
The test run of my automatic lucky cookie clicker went well. Ran for eight hours and appears not to have autoclicked on any "restart now?" or "download free antivirus?" message boxes
@AndrasDeak Yeah, when all else fails, use NUL terminators.
For my efforts, my cookie revenue has dectupled
Cabbage
13:19
I may have gone overboard with the diagnostic data, though... I have five hundred megabytes of screenshots saved for future analysis
Here's hoping the second eight hour test run doesn't fill my hard drive
can't pngs be compressed somewhat?
ah no, that's bmp
(I think)
I could resize them to half or quarter size and still retain most of the useful information within, but that will have to wait for ver 1.1
FWIW, I have a directory tree with various horrible pathnames (including quotes and newlines) that I use to test stuff when I write a Bash script that has to be totally robust in its pathname handling. But I prefer to use sensible pathnames on my machine, and tend to convert any crappy ones ASAP.
What I'd really like is, the ability to scrape the window even if it's obscured by another window on top of it. But I don't know if that's even possible. I think the OS sends WM_PAINT notifications only to windows that are actually visible
Even if it is possible I'd have to interact with the Windows API instead of my current lazy solution of PIL.ImageGrab.grab()
@Kevin I mostly ment for archival purposes
13:25
Getting bitmap data from the OS into something PIL can access would take like eight intermediary types. HWNDs and surfaces and such
@AndrasDeak Well the only really interesting data in each screenshots is: "which pixels changed?" so really I could just store just a list of pixel coordinates. Most of the time it's only like a hundred coords.
@AndrasDeak PNG supports a whole bunch of compression schemes, each with various options, but it takes trial & error to determine the best combination for a given image. And that takes a lot of time, so most PNG encoders produce files that are not as small as they could be. So there are tools like optipng that can make significant reductions to the file size of a typical PNG file.
@Kevin mpg ftw
@PM2Ring I meant just throwing it into zip
The only time I need full image data is during "black swan" events where something definitively non-cookie-like appears on the screen, such as a pop-up window.
@AndrasDeak Nah, that won't have much effect, since most PNGs are already using gzip.
Since those are likely to be proceeded by a catastrophic failure which I then would have to promptly debug, the image's value is short-term
13:34
FWIW, Wikipedia has a good summary of how compression works in PNG: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Network_Graphics#Compression It's more efficient than simply zipping the pixel data because it performs some analysis of the data as its being compressed.
can I do multiple selection in pycharm in the way ctrl+d works in VSCode/ST?
@AnttiHaapala It's the only thing that's changed. Occam's Razor, innit?
pngs are the jquery of image formats.
"I need to compress this image data, how do?" Have you tried using png?
@Kevin umm, no.
guys I need to learn swift in 2 days
13:47
You're doomed. It takes 21 days to learn a language.
@AnttiHaapala Would you like to suggest a better general-purpose image format with lossless compression?
@PM2Ring no; but jQuery is sht :D
a "jQuery" of something is a derogatory term
@AnttiHaapala Ah, ok.
and something something made by Lane and Adler deserves better
I think Kevin was using "jQuery" in the sense of it being universally recommended, not the fact that it's often recommended without good justification.
@AnttiHaapala Most certainly.
13:51
My message was produced by the brain stem and sent directly to my fingers with no higher level thought going into it. Your guess is as good as mine re: intentions
@Kevin ducktype!
thinking about file formats, PNG and JPEG still rock after 20 + years!
Man by computer standards 20 years is a loooong time
It's a shame that most JPEG tools don't support the use of arithmetic encoding (even though the spec permits it), due to patent issues. AFAIK, the relevant patents have long since expired, but there's not much impetus to incorporate arithmetic encoding since storage is so cheap, and it only reduces file size by 5-10%.

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