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8:03 PM
@IntrepidBrit I left it there for you as an easter egg ;)
 
Could use some advice from everyone about interviewing (if anyone is still around)
 
@amrcsu This is a Python room. There is probably a chat in one of the other SE networks that might be more appropriate.
 
@amrcsu you have the obfuscation down, don't you.
 
:P
 
:) I think we could guess assuming the obfuscation is not too clever
 
8:13 PM
Yep
Anyways for those who have figured it out, I am perhaps in a really weird position
 
Sigh.
Continue, sir.
 
Hey up, Fizzy, give t'lad a chance ;)
 
If it's a sock-puppet account, I doubt there's any need to obfuscate further (not that I have any experience with sock-puppets - I'm too lazy).
haha
 
There are virtual practice interviews available with some job sites if you can bring yourself to try them. I have no personal experience of them, but it might be a first step
Not quite the same as the real thing as they are over Skype or similar, but might be helpful.
 
I've heard bad things about them, but that was only for one particular one that UoB used.
 
8:20 PM
The job interview: it's part deal-negotiation, part sales - they're working with a budget, and probably going to buy, you gotta sell yourself to beat your competition (probably won't be hard) and try to work with their budget.
 
So I suppose my problem is: I feel like there is a big risk in putting that certain something on my resume to let people know what I can do, if I am going to go into an interview and bomb it because I am way too nervous
 
Because you'll feel bad that that certain something is not as good as you thought? Or because "the cat will be out of the bag"? Or other?
 
I think that most interviewers are willing to accept nervousness (though this acceptance reduces with the age/experience of the applicant, i.e. a 40 year industry vet gets less leeway than a straight-out-of-uni-grad)
 
If it makes you feel any better, I don't have any formal CS or Math experience either and I've been in the industry for about 3 years.
 
What age were you at the time? Sometimes I worry I'm too late
 
8:25 PM
I'm 21 now.
 
I don't have any formal CS training but am in the industry, and I turn 27 in June, so I'm practically over the hill already.
 
OK - got it. I suppose the risk, then, is that they won't believe it's your work. Do you have prior evidence that you will freeze as you suspect, I wonder?
 
But I've spoken to a few of my older coworkers who DID go for CS, and they all said they barely use any of what they learned there.
 
I think Fizzy is right, people will accept nerves - I certainly did when I was interviewing. You could even pre-warn HR if you think your nerves will be debilitating, they may even change processes / environment (not necessarily, of course)
 
@JRichardSnape I suppose that's it, yes -- I fear that I won't be showing what I am capable of doing. I don't want to walk away having them not believing me or something. And yes, plenty of past evidence, sadly.
 
8:29 PM
I don't think the lack of formal CS is a problem - I also had no CS and went straight into a graduate software dev role. But I haven't been for a straight software dev interview since, so can't give directly applicable contemporary advice
 
I'd build an application from scratch and use it as evidence of value create-ability.
 
If I can recommend someone else's services, @tristan did a great job of helping me get my resume up to speed.
It was incredibly helpful.
 
I've gone through lots of resumes crowd-sourced by agencies contracting firms, multiple graduate degree types, etc... I'd be happy to help.
 
I appreciate that -- thank you
 
Honestly, I don't think the bar is too high there either. I personally like to track quality of resume style. It's amazing that some of them have inconsistent style and formatting.
It's like, "here's a multi-page example of the quality of work you can expect from me." and it's - substandard.
 
8:41 PM
How do you guys fill up a resume?
 
@khajvah With a combination of words and negative space.
 
I have a job right now and am pursuing my university degree but I still can't fill up a signle page.
 
You should probably do more then.
 
I've worked at the same position for 6 years so I have this concern in the back of my mind as well
 
that's a lot
 
8:43 PM
Depends a lot on the position
 
THat's it I am starting a Flask web app tomorrow
 
ok back to Harry Potter marathon... man that Snape is one evil guy, right?
 
That would fill in a few sentences
@AaronHall yeah
 
cbg all :D
 
Cbg, Marcus.
 
8:56 PM
cbg
what's happening
 
Harry Potter
 
not here
maybe crimson tide's happening here
 
Not our Snape, I mean. Harry Potter's Snape is the evil one.
 
isn't it clear from the very beginning that he's good
he's about the most straightforward of all the characters.
totally unambiguous since the first book :D
 
9:16 PM
I remember going back in forth a bit on whether he was truly evil or not during my first read through....granted I think I was like 13 at the time so I'm not sure how great my reasoning skills were
 
Feature request for Python: Implement Rust's take. Eg: nums = take(range(0, 10), 5); assert nums == [0, 1, 2, 3, 4].
 
DSM
So take(x,n) is just list(islice(x, n))?
 
I forgot about islice. :P
 
DSM
I think if the generator-y way of looking at things were in Python from the start we'd probably have had something like islice in the default namespace, so it's not an unreasonable thing to want.
 
I've used things like range(0,10)[:5] before, as well
 
9:21 PM
Yeah, I think my real request is for islice to not require an import.
 
9:36 PM
My program failed during a demonstration but never during testing...
 
I return, lulling you into a false sense of security before I unleash my full evil...
 
So I'm using the watchdog library and that's why my program failed. The file was still being uploaded when I handled the file. I'm not sure how to determine a fully 'uploaded' state.
 
10:23 PM
stackoverflow.com/questions/34859628/… recommendation - link provided in comments. Easily googleable etc.
 
10:39 PM
Hey, is python guaranteed to have each module it imports "run only once"?
or is that mere accidents/optimizations?
 
F4z
hello, just need to clarify something related to Big-O
regarding this slide, puu.sh/mANOq/4bbc29c059.png
where does the n + 1 come from?
 
Big oh never has "n+x" lol - that comes from a non mathematician.
 
@F4z you'd think it's n - 1, at first glance
 
F4z
why not just n?
so let's say if it was while n < index:
would that be n - 1?
so 3n - 5
 
The sheet creator is simply counting statements...
 
F4z
10:46 PM
yup agreed, just wanted to know where the n + 1 comes from, i get the rest
 
well say "n" (list size) has a length of 2.
 
F4z
i guess this was the part before Big-O, my mistake
ok
 
Then it checks at start (ind = 0) (continu) - then at ind = 1 (continue) - then at ind = 2 (stop) - so "3 times" the thing is checked.
the "+1" comes from the fail-requirement check.
 
F4z
the fail requirement is so that it knows its less than?
 
No it's just how a while loop works.
 
F4z
10:48 PM
alright
 
@F4z I think it uses "n+1" because it still needs 1 more check to see that it can exit the loop
 
F4z
so no matter what, when given a situation like that the n + 1 is always gonna be there
 
a while loop loops so long as the statement is true. - But it has to check before knowing it, so it will always check "1 time it's false".
Well yes.. Unless you change it to something like: while n < index/2
 
For instance if index=0 and n=2, it'll check to see if 0<2, 1<2, and 2<2. This takes 3 or n+1 = 2+1 checks
 
F4z
@MarcusS that + 1 is the 'to check if i'm done' just like @paul23 mentioned
 
10:50 PM
Yes
 
I'm having performance issues (bottlenecks) because muliprocessing performs deep copies of 10 megabyte images. Should I switch to C++?
 
F4z
@MarcusS @paul23 would it still be 3n + 5 for puu.sh/mAOza/6769bde2e7.png
because it needs to check for that exclusive value which is n + 1
:P
 
I'm a moron.. But here it breaks down to sillyness - it depends simply on what you define as "statement", in python a single statement/line can do already so many magical things.
 
F4z
but the one i did with a for loop, that would still be 3n + 5 correct?
oh wait , it wouldn't wouldnt it
 
In basics in python for looping also loops over it's range, untill it encounters a stop-condition (StopIterationError if I'm correct - it's in python's docs when googling __iter__). - so yesyou're correct.
 
F4z
10:58 PM
why wouldn't it NOT be 2n + 4?
 
@F4z I think it'd be 3n + 4
 
F4z
3n because the n + 1 for the check ?
even in for loops
 
Because for a in b still needs to "check" next element.
that gives n + 1 checks for the looping statement.
 
It takes n operations to iterate over the range(), n updates to the_sum, and n updates to index
It may still need the extra +1 but that depends on how range() is implemented
Either way, not really relevant to big-O analysis since you can just say the loop runs in O(n) time
 
@MarcusS uh actually internally it still takes n+1 operations (it goes on till an out-of-range exception occurs). It's just that the "+1" is negligible and never noted.
 
F4z
11:00 PM
just range(n), that way it would be 0, 1,2, 3,.. n-1
beacause n is exclusive, to check check that it does the n + 1 once that is correct exists out?
@MarcusS yes!, i was just about to ask nested loops where both of them have range(n) which would be O(n^2)
 
F4z
but i just wanted to clear this one, i believe the reason my lecturer was doing this is to slowly transition from when constants make a difference to when they are completely irrelevant
but there are times when the constants can be relevant didn't go too much into that tho
 
Depends on the context
 
F4z
if i have a function which loops through a string say 'hello' and a randomly generated letter from a list of strings was assigned to a variable, then for i in 'hello' if random string == i, return True
would that be best case in big-o
and worst case is if the randomly generated string never equalled any of the characters in the string
average case would be somewhere in the middle?
 
@F4z big-oh doesn't talk about "best case" - it talks about asymptotic behaviour.
 
F4z
11:13 PM
so what does it mean by when 'best case' is said?
 
"What happens if n goes to infinity" - or in other words "what kind of curve does the highest order term in N have"
 
You can talk about asymptotic behavior in varying situations / cases
 
F4z
let's say for the example of the string, if it doesn't reaches the end, then just break from the loop
 
Your "for loop" only iterates basically 5 times, so the big-oh of the loop is "$\mathcal{O}(n)$"
 
F4z
yup
 
11:16 PM
Now it depends on how fast is your check, how fast can you generate the random letter from the list.
 
Is that "$\mathcal{O}(n_2)$ then thetotal is still $\mathcal{O}(n)$ however if it has a higher order than the big oh also is that higher order.
To understand if something is a higher order it's simple mathematics using l'Hopital
Well there it talks about "prepared lists" - best case is for an "already sorted list" (or well depending on algorithm)...
 
F4z
best, worst and average are just how well the algorithm ran to get the desired output
 
@F4z No how well it potential will run. - Still for "lists" that go to "infinity in length".
 
To my understanding, in practice, "best case" just means "if you arranged your input in such a way that your algorithm would terminate as soon as possible", "worst case" means the input is arranged so the algorithm would take as long as possible -- and "average" case is how well it runs on a typical input (usually randomized)
 
11:24 PM
@MarcusS Add "while the size of the input goes to infinity" there.
 
Sure, but I mean if we're going to be talking about O definitions, may as well be explicit. I think it's something like "f(x) is O(g(x)) if there exists some positive real c such that f(x) <= c*g(x) for all x>=x_0"
 
Btw big oh is also used in many other applications.
 
F4z
it should be helpful to mention I'm a first year learning about Big-O so not much will be covered however the basic groundrules will
 
IE for numerical analysis it's used way more explicitly; and through that I learned it much better than any programming teacher ever tried to explain. - Cause there the big oh is used without short-cuts and it's power as mathematical tool really shines.
@F4z Do you have already educations limit theory/the fundamental theory of calculus?
 
F4z
@paul23 I haven't really done calculus, let alone functions in math, however I see how useful it is.
I'd love to learn all these advanced math stuff
 
11:29 PM
Well big-oh is just an application of that..
Any calculus course or book that actually goes for understanding beyond arithmetics opens with limits.
Always surprises me how little calculus computer scientist get. (Also at uni when I as engineering student talk in the pub with someone from the CS department that often gives me surprises).
 
F4z
the thing is if I do math in university, to my understanding I'd be really far behind because I had the option to do math at high school but choose not to because I thought I'd not really need it, i.e. advanced math but I've been avoiding math and now I'd love to learn it
 
all mine started with functions (though limits was the first part of differential calc)
 
F4z
I might learn math slowly, I just need ot have a good starting ground
 
@JGreenwell Functions, you mean derivative?
 
F4z
If i start with functions, I'd need previous stuff from math, like the roots and i need to learn the roots first or alteast refresh my roots
 
11:33 PM
@F4z get a book...
Most of those books are called "calculus", and at least 2k pages long full of excercises..
don't even TRY to learn it without a good book
 
yep
 
@JGreenwell Well it's cause that's easier :p - but formally the derivative is defined as the opposite of the integral (which follows from limit theorem).
 
well, yes but a "beginning student" wouldn't learn that until mid-semester (or mid-early depending)
 
F4z
@paul23 yea agreed, i need something solid
 
Jeez, $246.69 new
 
uh at (technical) universities here limit theorem is always 2nd week. With the first week being "hey I'm your prof, and I hoped your highschool teachers have thought you about this this and this, if not here are some pointers to update your knowledge" .
@MarcusS I still open it like every month.. contains everything for calculus you'll need.
But any uni has it's own bookstore right?
They always have a calculus book they use for education
 
F4z
just curious, is there a book where it teaches you the absolute basic to advanced algebra? like rearranging combining like terms etc.? i'd like to know one
that way I can go to calculus
 
hmm....I may just be remembering the lecture order wrong then (it was 11 years ago) or my professor was weird
 
@F4z you mean writing out things like (a + b)^2 = a^2 +2ab + b^2 ?
 
F4z
11:39 PM
pretty much,
i ask because I want to be like 95% good at stuff like that before moving on to others
even if I knew some, it's better to get good refreshers
 
Most calculus books have a starting chapter.. But apart from that, I only know books I used at highschool (aimed at children age 14-16) :/.
And dutch on top of that
 
F4z
I'd love a book like that haha,
 
In the netherlands highschool education is way more "formalized" - there's a central final examn and you can't just choose "not to do math"..
 
F4z
interesting
 
I'm earning my tuiton fee giving extra help to those highschool students for mathematics. :P
 
11:43 PM
I would ask about a GRE math refresher course at your university (that covers basically everything before calculus)
and many universities offer that type of tutoring help as part of tuition
 
@F4z Well it means that around me there aren't any "refreshers" or other books/courses, since you have to fully understand algebra before you're even allowed to graduate from highschool.
 
note: standard GRE math not the Math GRE subject test as that is a different beast altogether
I wish that was true here (US) paul
 
F4z
interesting, I guess I'll have to do my own research, find books and read, I don't think I'd need anything like this unless I was studying algorithms and other math related stuff
but I still want to just so I can do it
anyway see you guys, thanks for the tips and helping hand :D
 
most people I know in CS say at least calculus is required for course work (I'm in IS where it is essential due to analytic courses)
 
F4z
I'll see how it all goes, if anything I'm totally prepared to learn math
 
11:47 PM
good attitude at least :)
 
I feel like it's all interconnected anyway. Might as well learn it all. :P
 
@JGreenwell Well once you have calculus under your belt the rest comes "easy".
Linear algebra: different but not "hard" (and once you understand it, you understand why we have computers in the first place - those are just too good at solving linear algebra problem)s.
Differential calculus: ok this is annoying, the bane of my existence. But any physical real world problem - and at least over a dozen programming problems can be written really quickly as a differential equation. This just requires practice to get good at..
Numerical algebra: Kind of hard since it requires both good knowledge of computers/algorithm complexities and calculus. - But once you have that you can solve any problem thrown at you. Oh and it's basically good significance management.
 
yep, I am personally on the "everyone should know calculus" boat but the current policy here, in the US, seems to be to draw the line at simple statistics
 

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