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17:00
where is @tristan when I need to talk about food.
@AaronHall we consistently discourage people from using LPTHW. See sopython.com/wiki/What_tutorial_should_I_read%3F. They will also have basic syntax down if they read any of those.
Mexican for dinner tonight (I'm always up for discussing food)
Thinking nachos
I just got back from my lunch break and have a banana milkshake. Not some crappy flavoring, a real banana.
@vaultah maybe I'm just dumb, but where do you get it? Do you have to build the docs from source?
@Ffisegydd Now I'm jealous. Mexican is top-tier food
never mind, I am dumb...
I do awesome nachos too.
Not a big cheese fan myself...
Chicken, refried beans, pico de gallo (sp?), sour cream, the whole thing
DSM
DSM
@MartijnPieters: I was about to write an accumulate-based answer when I realized I'd done so recently. Close enough to dup, do you think? (The "index" part, not, though.)
17:10
cbg
@MartijnPieters but when I'll hit the epic then I'll lose interest for SO :P
The nachos I make are salsa and hot sauce. Not even tortilla chips
@Ffisegydd Truth be told, I'm picky. But, I did have the best tacos of my life when I vacationed in Cancun. So much flavor...idk how they did it.
@davidism can you tell me about the "interesting decisions" in LPTHW that make it - suboptimal?
Some of the things the guy does aren't very focused towards how beginners learn, imho.
"some of the things" are?
I used to jokingly call it "Learn Python the Wrong Way" but my meetup group has been pointing people at it for years.
But I think it would be valuable to say exactly what's wrong with it.
17:19
what is wrong with it is that its author is a Rubyist
a false profit
(a false profit being a very false prophet)
I believe you mean a "phalse prophet"
Ok, but that's more of an insult to the man.
Not a critique of the material.
Not only do we allow, but we also encourage, insulting ruby php Java non-python devs (apart from Wayne).
The python docs explicitly state heresy should not be allowed in the community
I didn't say it isn't allowed, just that it doesn't answer the question.
17:21
I know, I was more using the opportunity to make a funny.
I think we're all chuckling.
I don't think you are, not really ;_;
I mean: why would you learn how to learn Python from a guy who says "python is wrong, I use ruby"
it is like learning zen from the guy who says "I believe in flying spaghetti monster though"
17:22
I have encountered a lot of problems with users of LPTHW in that they seem to be more confused than people who do other tutorials (not scientific, I know)
Others, such as DSM in particular IIRC, may be able to give more scientific/specific arguments against it.
But then again recall that it is still work o'clock in Canadaland/California so they may not instantly respond.
"For example, are you trying to use Python 3 for this book? I said in Exercise 0 to not use Python 3, so you should not use Python 3."
Oh well yeah I forgot about that argument as well.
Hey I'm not in either of those locations and I'm working :|
17:24
The guy is a non-believer.
I'd rather read a book by any of the core Python 3 devs than this infidel :P
the beginning says: "This exercise has no code. It is simply the exercise you complete to get your computer to run Python. You should follow these instructions as exactly as possible. For example, Mac OS X computers already have Python 2, so do not install Python 3 (or any Python)."
Make sure you install Python 2, not Python 3. in italics.
I was taught Python 3, but I don't understand why people are reluctant to change
OK, so Python 2 is heavily used in the corporate world. We're just now trying to get to 2.7 from 2.6, ever so slowly.
Why haven't we made our own religion yet?
on the very very very 2 first pages it says 10 times: do not install python 3
17:27
it's called Pythonia
I'm juuust a little short on charisma to become a cult leader.
The very phrase "You must read every single thing I write here and read it carefully" would put me off forever. I do not respond well to being hectored
"Just learn Python 2 and ignore people saying Python 3 is the future."
Also, have you priced geodesic domes lately?! Isolated forest compounds are expensive.
unless you make your own kiln and mud hut
17:28
Kevin we could all make mud huts
Damn I'm too slow
I love the Python Cookbook.
maybe we should write a book
learn python the easy way
S0 Elitist Book of Pythonia
I cook pythons in a variety of ways too, cajun, Mexican, Sichuan...
@JRichardSnape have fun down that rabbit hole...
17:36
How hard could it possibly be?
Ominous thunder rumbles
It'll be just like Minecraft, right?
Someone go punch a tree and get me some wood.
lol at this setup.py code, how retarded is that
Please compile all of your complaints about LPTHW into an attractive blog post so we can link to it the next time someone asks for a book recommendation
I've never actually made a setup.py lol
17:40
@Programmer it does not matter, the point is that in setup.py there is a function call to setup that takes keyword arguments
and the guy just builds a dictionary in the most awkward manner possible and then calls setup(**args)
It would be slightly worse if it was config = dict(key=value, ...) then setup(**config)
why, at least the dict(key=value) is less typing :D
Fair point!
Ahh okay I understand now
in any case, only a rubyist would have that in the 3rd edition of the book
17:43
Apparantly M. Night Shyamalan is releasing a new movie: fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/…
of course why they find the book is
it is in the damned wiki, saying it is the "easy way to learn python"
5:38 is about the time I order my pizza on a friday night. Coincidence?? I think not
@Ffisegydd good joke, but now I can't add anything to the list without breaking it. :-)
I give you permission to break my joke for the purposes of shi**ing on LPTHW.
17:45
@DSM: you don't need my permission to dupe vote :-)
The films listed below have been cited by a variety of notable critics in varying media sources as being among the worst films ever made. Examples of such sources include Metacritic, Roger Ebert's list of most-hated films, Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Rotten Tomatoes, Mystery Science Theater 3000, RiffTrax, and the Golden Raspberry Awards ("Razzies"). == 1930s == === Reefer Madness (1936) === Reefer Madness (originally released as Tell Your Children and sometimes titled or subtitled as The Burning Question, Dope Addict, Doped Youth, and Love Madness) is a 1936 American exploitation fil...
Looks close enough to me; the answers there answer the question.
Ah yes, LPTHW is the Suzuki method for learning Python.
Sep 2 at 12:59, by PM 2Ring
Part of the Hard Way technique is throwing the students into coding a giant crappy text-based adventure game. And when they have problems they post 3 screenfuls of mess that they expect us to debug.
Yeah, it's somehow really good at encouraging them to stop reading and try something that they will have problems with unless they keep reading.
17:49
I was just thinking that.
I dislike LPTHW ... and really dont think its a very good primer
I just read through several pages and don't like it at all :/
I'd rather debug assembly than that... :D
It's the didactic method, and you're the hapless teachers. :D
I seem to recall that actually happening in a question - the user added some personal flair to their text adventure, and had problems X, Y, and Z. But if they had read on to the next chapter, the book would have told them, "don't do A, B, and C, or else you'll get X, Y, and Z"
17:50
My smoke test isn't smoking, woot woot!
Which makes it hard to complain about the book not explaining how to solve X, Y, and Z, because it does -- it just happens several pages after the typical reader gets stuck on the issue and stops reading while they try to debug
And by "debug" I mean post a non-mcve code dump in our laps
Oh, how I hate a dump in my lap!!!
Ahh the joys of having a puppy
I guess LPTHW works fine for some people, and those people don't ask questions on SO. But there do seem to be quite a few who get the same (or very similar) wrong ideas about programing / Python that lead them to ask similar questions on SO. Maybe if they persisted with the LPTHW tutorials their misconceptions would be cleared up. It's hard to tell.
@PM2Ring wouldn't
this is so appalling compared to some little lisper or anything
Antti, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I'm prepared to be convinced that LPTHW can turn out competent Python programmers. OTOH, from the evidence of the LPTHW-related questions we get on SO, I'm rather skeptical. :)
18:01
Reverse survivorship bias: we don't know which tutorials produce the most successes, we only know which ones produce the most failures.
Exactly
That's funny, I can say the same about some professors :^)
@PM2Ring happy with this:
Functions do three things:

They name pieces of code the way variables name strings and numbers.
They take arguments the way your scripts take argv.
Using 1 and 2 they let you make your own "mini-scripts" or "tiny commands."
:-/
it is like "woot", first of all teach ppl who never use command line, what are command line arguments...
then explain functions in terms of command line arguments
18:05
Well, it is learning it the hard way
user559633
is there a common term for the python major + minor version combined?
Learn Bash Scripting The Hard Way defines scripts as standalone Python functions
user559633
i.e. what would you call "3.4", where 3.4.3 is the version
I call that the minjer version
minor version
18:07
I also keep getting fired for sexual harassment for some reason
user559633
'.4' is the minor version per docs.python.org/devguide/devcycle.html
To clarify terminology, Python uses a major.minor.micro nomenclature for production-ready releases. So for Python 3.1.2 final, that is a major version of 3, a minor version of 1, and a micro version of 2.
yes
@AnttiHaapala That's not very helpful. In order to understand what he's talking about you need to already understand what he's talking about. Which reminds me a lot of most Microsoft documentation...
@PM2Ring of course you did read all that he wrote before
user559633
@AnttiHaapala exactly. so would you expect the major + minor concat version to be named?
18:08
It's 'majomino', pronounced like 'palomino' or 'geronimo'
user559633
and not python_version_major_plus_minor
@tristan no, it is minor version
7 does not mean anything
2.7 is minor version
Isn't 7 the minor version?
user559633
2.7 is the major version 2 and the minor version 7
18:08
I just don't think there's a name for it
user559633
yeah, i think there's not an "actual" name for it
you can call it the minor version or
then you can call it the feature version
I'd call it the version, as major.minor is the standard granularity for python versions
I generally just call it "version" .. as in, if someone asks me "what python version are you using" I would say "2.7" or "3.4"
Although then again with python versionsplit especially, the major version is also the version
18:09
the micro is usually not relevant
major.minor.revision_id\
2.7.1234
user559633
calling it the minor version would be incorrect. i guess feature_version works. cheers
feature version is a good description, yeah
in svn the "micro" would always just be the commit # ... in git you can use tags + git describe to get some equivelent
oh nm
I should read
this is python version specific ... not generic version hints
I dont know how they calculate their feature_revision
user559633
this is for a system info meta-package, so i'm being extra careful on not stepping on other meanings
18:13
@tristan 2.7, the 7 is the minor version number and you get the minor version of 2.7 :P
user559633
@AnttiHaapala not sure i get your meaning, but calling 2.7 the "minor version" is incorrect
Nah because 3.7 will have the same minor version
user559633
exactly.
I got your back bro
user559633
Python.org is inexact in conversation as well: "Python 2.7 is the last major release in the 2.x series"
user559633
18:17
Seems like "feature branch" is good
{
 'version':2.7,
 'major version': 2,
 'minor version': 7
}
Ex 23:
Avoid any project that mentions "Python 3". That'll only confuse you.
Avoid any project that mentions "Python 3". That'll only confuse you.
LOL at the idea that a first time learner will be able to read anyone else's nontrivial code
Let's make Learn Python The Right Way. You guys start; I'll proofread for grammar errors.
if 7 in my_list :P
I think learn python the hardway should start with os.system("format -F C")
18:23
"So, you want to learn a Pyton"
Can't I just learn the concepts behind boolean algebra and not memorize this?
Sure, you can do that, but then you'll have to constantly go through the rules for boolean algebra while you code. If you memorize these first, it not only builds your memorization skills, but it also makes these operations natural. After that, the concept of boolean algebra is easy. But do whatever works for you.
seriously, this guy suggests you should memorize truth tables for == and !=
hmmm
maybe you should ... I got that all out of the way a long long time ago
Add it to the list :P
I have a math major and computer science major and I faintly remember truth tables
@Programmer if I say: "if a and b" then do you consult truth tables that...
mmm.... False and True...
mmm... that makes .... wait...
... False
18:28
now do it for True and False
:^)
because True and False != False and True? Hold on remembering truth tables...
I had to draw a truth table a few years ago because I'd worked all night and literally couldn't work it out on the fly
actuialy the == and != ... is about the smallest truthtable there is
I can understand using truthtables sometimes ... for complicated expressions
Sometimes logic gets messy. Then I realize I've done something fatally wrong
it is good when you reason with demorgan but...
seriously it was about truth tables for "and" and "or"
18:30
(I actually cant think of a single time I have ever had to resort to doing a truth table for an actual programming problem)
oh they left out xor huh ... elitists
@JoranBeasley there was an API with a query language that does not accept OR NOT
god i always hated xor for some reason
so I had to us De Morgan's laws to make it into AND
lol
isnt there auto converters online somewhere ....
@JoranBeasley we were compiling python into that query language :D
from ast
file handling, splitting, whatever handled already
18:32
I remember an interesting lesson from college where you took the results of a truth table and tried to determine the most efficient boolean expression that matched it.
the test halfway was also done...
and now they teach: if
I don't remember how to actually do it any more, but knowing that there is some way to do it is the next best thing.
We know what Kevin is doing for the next 30 minutes
@Programmer now that's starworthy
Wow my first star. I feel like I'm in elementary all over again
18:34
Trying to remember the name of the thing? Google cut down the ETA by 29 minutes:
The Karnaugh map, also known as the K-map, is a method to simplify boolean algebra expressions. Maurice Karnaugh introduced it in 1953 as a refinement of Edward Veitch's 1952 Veitch diagram. The Karnaugh map reduces the need for extensive calculations by taking advantage of humans' pattern-recognition capability. It also permits the rapid identification and elimination of potential race conditions. The required boolean results are transferred from a truth table onto a two-dimensional grid where the cells are ordered in Gray code, and each cell position represents one combination of input conditions...
You have two options: Use 0 < x < 10 or 1 <= x < 10, which is classic notation, or use x in range(1, 10).
Damn you google
@AnttiHaapala ironically, x in range(...) is O(1)... But only in Python 3.
ummm is x in range(..) O(1)?
x in my_list is O(n)
(disregarding the fact that 0 < x < 10 gives True when x = 5.5, while x in range(10) gives False, so they're not even remotely equivalent)
18:36
range is special i know ... but still
@Kevin too bad the author recommended avoiding anything python 3...
@JoranBeasley python 3
someday ill switch
@JoranBeasley range not list
also obviously range does not work for floats
And only for integers
18:37
I hope someone is writing these down
we should release LPTHW annotated
Yeah but we might need to censor some of antti's comments if he's allowed to write directly on the material
now anyone wanna sacrifice $30 so that I can watch the videos
@RobertGrant I don't beep beep beep this beep beep beep beep how in beep beep.
hah 30.00 is 30.00 too much for that content I think
18:39
gives someone on the internet his credit card number so he can "watch the videos"
Quickly someone make a filtering algorithm for antti's comments
we need truth table sfor that?
Only if you didn't remember them when he told you to
I am pretty sure he's gotten millions already, he can find a lawyer that will make me regret
18:42
point #9 really resonates as bad teaching
cbg
stackoverflow.com/questions/32530115/python-lists-basics <- It’s funny how everyone downvotes that question (including my answer) but nobody bothers to cv it.
@AnttiHaapala What’s LPTHW? I realized it the moment I asked the question… *sigh*
I can recommend this to absolutely no one.
I am enjoying the rails is a ghetto thing
Though I've no idea if it's accurate or not
user559633
@RobertGrant 100%.
That's a typo. Rails is a grotto.
18:54
WHAAT?
the ex 39 teaches how to build hash table?!?!
@tristan fair enough
@AnttiHaapala is this what you do in your spare time?
@Programmer no
The MBA attitude is best summarized in this statement, “I demand all of your creativity, yet trust none of your judgment.”
Nice.
user559633
I don't understand why he removed it from his site.
18:58
@AnttiHaapala That's really going to be useful in Python...
What next, bubble sort?
@PM2Ring did you know that classes are like mini modules and modules are special dictionaries that use . instead of []. And objects are like mini imports.
user559633

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