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user559633
14:00
Why the ":/" emoticon for Quebec?
And @Martin your PM announces visa on arrival today! I applied for visa 3 days ago :(
Bad luck
@davidism isn't there things like Flask-Classy that make people create classes for resources?
Cause Quebec is a bit of a mess lol
But Montreal is a great place
17
Q: This answer was posted *after* the question was closed, how is that possible?

Tushar GuptaHow can somebody post an answer when the question is closed (marked as duplicate)? I see a question marked as duplicate 8 mins ago and someone posted an answer 5 min ago. This means the answer was posted 3 minutes after the question was closed.

Relevant meta post for that spooky thing
@BhargavRao Alternatively, relativistic effects caused by the extreme mass of two Mjölnirs in one question caused jonrsharpes dupe-hammering to undergo time dilation, thus appearing to happen before Cyber's answer in the reference frame of we mere mortals.
14:10
Uhhh. A user posted this question, which I never originally saw, but in its original state just looked like a debugging question and was put on hold. He decided to repost with a bit more information here (which is when I saw it), and it was pretty well received, and an interesting issue really. What to do now :P
Did you vote to re-open?
Noob over here doesn't have that rep power.
But in any case, his second version now has answers, so upon reopening wouldn't it be appropriate to close as a dupe of his newer version?
U can't close a question as a dupe of a closed ques
:(
No I mean, the other way around. His old one could be closed as a dupe of his new one? Even though he shouldn't have just asked the same question again. Or maybe you just do nothing and let his old one get deleted?
I'll vote to delete :) and also inform ajcr about it
14:17
If that's appropriate, alrighty.
Most probably!
dumb question; in git, how can one get the SHA of the last change to a specific file?
whattttttt
("Comments cannot contain that content.

Don't comment on your downvote. If you think this post can be improved, please offer specific guidance. See: The Comment Privilege.")
Did you say '-1'?
14:19
@DonkeyKong Recent Meta questions suggest that there's no point opening a question that was closed for the wrong reason just to close it again as a dupe. In many cases dupe questions can be useful portals (although they shouldn't be answered since ideally all the answers are consolidated in one place), so they're a bit different to other closed questions. But in this case, that "portal" logic doesn't apply, since the titles are almost identical and the question bodies themselves are identical.
@Ffisegydd Yep
A low quality answer stackoverflow.com/questions/29690092/… But has got enuff downvotes for the OP to delete it himself!
Do I flag?
Or leave?
@PM2Ring Alright, yeah. I just didn't want his old question to get re-opened and then have two copies of the exact same question from the same user sitting around. So deleting makes sense. Thanks!
@corvid that's something completely different that what was demonstrated in that question. Related, I'm not really a fan of flask-classy either.
@Ffisegydd Were people crying about "-1" posts?
14:25
Aye tis regex'd or something to prevent it.
People just saying "-1 nab"
I've never used flask-classy, but it seems like there must be tons of libraries for crud operations
regex? where?
So regex pings you?
Cool
Disclaimer: I have no idea if they actually use regex.
14:26
@IntrepidBrit There are Meta posts about it. It's considered too negative: if you downvote you should offer some constructive criticism. Saying -1 is like putting the boot in while they're down.
Python, Jinja2 nl2br and security not a problem (or at least not demonstrated to be one)
Devs, please change the regex so it rejects "-1" but not "-1 because..."
And I guess it interferes with anonymity of voting: if +1 and -1 comments became common, everyone would be kind of obliged to identify themselves when voting. Which would suck.
Yeah, but the anomonity thing sucks for new people who get horribly down-voted and don't know why
At least that way you know what's going on
One way to find a meta post on -1 in comments is to go to Shog9's meta prof and check the most downvoted question
It's on that
14:29
I don't think I ever saw a "-1" comment that didn't at least attempt to give constructive criticism.
Was there a wave of "-1 lol" comments that I missed?
Other tags may not be as nice.
All I was going to have was: "-1, because you haven't shown any attempt to solve the problem yourself. People are more likely to help you if it doesn't look like we're doing your homework"
rhubarb
@IntrepidBrit Sure. But when you downvote the system asks if you would you like to leave a comment to explain your downvote. Unfortunately, not everyone does so.
14:30
the whole point of removing -1 <helpful feedback> was that you could just write <helpful feedback> without the vote indicator.
Less drama.
Just do what I do. Downvote them then say "I didn't downvote but..."
3
It wasn't that there were poor comments with -1 in them, it was that the op of the post would often get angry.
@Kevin yeah I'm at a loss as to why an explanation is bad; normally that's exactly what you want
(I have no idea how the comment on that post helped the op)
@IntrepidBrit The regex (or whatever) is pretty basic: it only looks at the start of your comment. So you can still say that if you want to, you just have to bury the -1 in your comment. But IMHO it's better to avoid the drama and just offer the constructive criticism.
14:33
I did do that in the end
But it's the first I've said -1 in a while
@Ffisegydd Yeah, but you're evil. :p
Just comment "(Screw the system!) -1: blah blah blah"
More evil: "I upvoted, but someone else (Ffisegydd) may have downvoted because..."
4
Let me see if I understand. If an OP sees that their question has downvotes, and sees a comment giving criticism, he won't get mad. But, holding everything else constant, the comment also starts with "-1", he will get mad?
I've always waited for some guy to upvote till I can comment that! ... Ending with, it actually isn't bad for a downvote
Evil again ;)
14:36
@Kevin Apparently so shrugs
This seem really uncharitable to the OP. It seems like it implies that they're too dumb to figure out that their question was downvoted unless they're explicitly told, twice.
The -1 adds nothing. They'll probably get angry either way, but in a world where no one indicates how they voted, everyone can comment freely.
Otherwise, I have to constantly be saying "I didn't downvote" if there's already a -1.
To be fair, 78% of the time OP is dense as a neutron star.
As dense as a star four stars?
@Kevin the actual problem is hard to solve algorithmically. Detecting +1 or -1 is easy algorithmically. Therefore stuff.
14:37
"They'll probably get angry either way". 100% agree. So I'm astonished that this feature ever got implemented, considering how stringent the requirements of usefulness usually are for new features.
The best kind of star!
Aargh! Prof calling for a hangout now
He is jobless I guess
His only job - Trouble students
a thousand chat users will save five minutes a day every day due to new feature X? Nope, not worth it to implement. one in a million OPs with anger problems will avoid flying off the handle due to feature Y? Stop the presses, get that shiz in production right now!
The comments thread for the latest xkcd comic, Code Quality is getting interesting. I like this one:
Rbrb all
14:38
forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=111634#p3776718 [...] The implication that being self-taught leads to messy code bothers me. Maybe you can guess that I'm self-taught. But in all my years of programming, and working with many other engineers, I have yet to see a significant correlation between code quality and being self-taught. I've seen perfectly messy code from people with Ph.D's in computer science.
When it comes to code quality, experience seem to be the major determining factor. Someone who has spent significant time working on a project with other engineers and dealing with other people's code is generally going to produce cleaner code, at least in my experience. [...]
What's weird is xkcd.com is blocked here, but forums.xkcd.com is reachable.
@Kevin yep, most people see it as a pretty useless feature.
@PM2Ring I'd say that most programmers are self taught anyway, if you exclude the "I just majored in CS for the nice paycheck" crowd.
@RobertGrant ROFL
I agree with the sentiment that +/-1 shouldn't be in a comment though.
14:41
Stop me if you've heard this story a million times before: "my parents got me an Apple II when I was five, it was love at first sight and I've been hooked ever since"
@PM2Ring The comic's not making fun of self-taught people, it's making fun of people who feel the need to qualify that when other people look at their code.
I'm self-taught, after 3 years of playing counterstrike at university
6
You're my hero Bob.
(Statement massively based on real events)
@Ffisegydd I thought it was funny at first, but now I massively regret it
@Kevin Yeah. Classes & books can only do so much; you need to actually spend serious time writing code & figuring out how stuff works by experimentation.
14:42
Why is the Python room a bit nicer and more welcoming than the C++ room (who has occupants that like to characterize everyone as a "help vampire" and openly call themselves "dicks" (check the starred comments))? Is it that some people persistently find themselves in over their heads with C++, and so in that room they get bugged more? Or is the simplest explanation best, that they're just "dicks"? (I use quotes to emphasize that the word is not my own.)
@AaronHall I think they're actually calling themselves "clicks", because they're american and don't know it's "clique"
We've I've Me and tristan have achieved a higher form of dickishness, through humour and sarcasm. Unfortunately this is sometimes misconstrued as being nice.
Or maybe it's that Python is so easy that it's easier to help someone than to complain about it?
Phone interview in 15 minutes. Should probably stop speaking to you guys and read some prep material.
But anyway, it depends on the level of code. Getting someone who's self taught from the internet to study what they need to to perform compiler optimisations or make something like SQLAlchemy probably requires a very, very bright and motivated person who probably did the equivalent of a degree in their spare time anyway
@Ffisegydd remember to say "hello" out loud a couple of times before you answer :)
DSM
DSM
14:45
Morning luck-for-Fizzy cabbage for all!
I just tried that and each "Hello" was more ridiculous than the last. I now sound like Julian Clary. THANKS BOB.
@Ffisegydd All the best!!
@Ffisegydd knock 'em dead matey :)
Good luck @Ffisegydd
@Ffisegydd that's a winner's voice
14:46
and put the blame on Jon when the cops arrive..
@davidism Agreed. Being self-taught is no excuse for extreme sloppiness. Although if you don't expect others to ever see your code you probably won't code to the highest standard you're capable of.
@Ffisegydd I could live with you having a Julian Clary like voice... if you start dressing like him though... I might have to re-think you being a mate :)
I'm gonna do that thing that Matthew McConaughey does from Wolf Of Wall Street to warm my voice up.
Southerner in NYC thing?
14:49
@Sword ahhh.... but cops like cute puppies... the blaming will never work!
Don't forget the coke.
I never forget the coke. What do you think "interview prep" means?
And once more we have another off-the-cuff remark that will ensure I'll never be able to run for mod.
"You Can't Beat the Real Thing"
"Coke Is It"
@Ffisegydd not sure if it's better/worse than introducing cabbage to a chatroom :)
14:53
@JonClements a puppy contesting the SO moderator elections and programming in python is suspicious enough for the cops..
@Sword but look at my eyes... they're so trustworthy :)
@AaronHall I think it's mostly a matter of volume. The more "difficult" visitors you get, the less patience you have for any particular one. so total_rudeness = visitors / patience_per_visitor = vistors / (total_patience/visitors) = visitors^2 / total_patience. That's superlinear growth right there.
@Ffisegydd VERY best of luck!
Rbrb
Double the number of truth seekers, and snark subsequently quadruples.
I'll be on later to see how it went
14:57
I see
and volume must relate to difficulty? Maybe the rooms should be able to set their own reputation minimums?
I think if you have base users who are already jaded then new users will quickly become jaded too.
Python has the advantage maybe that the original base users were non-jaded and so as we've grown others have not been so jaded so quickly.
is it possible to call a python script from within vim?
14:59
Salad contributes a bit as well by establishing a more lighthearted tone.
Say "cabbage" to each user immediately as he joins for the first time, and he immediately knows we're not aiming for 100% seriousness.
I'm not sold on "Salad".
Welcome to the Dark Side :D
Every community has its in-jokes.
(citation: every "the many memes of [site or room]" post on various meta sites)
Sure, but not all in-jokes make the community a joke.
brb guys
15:02
The rooms serve different purposes. C++ is explicitly stated to be mainly off-topic, don't ask questions here unless you're a regular. In Python we're trying to show a good first impression to people interested in Python.
That means we moderate controversial behavior more.
Good impressions? I mostly answer questions out of narcissism :>
And now you have a better impression of yourself. ;)
This is true
Sometimes I do worry that having our own miniature language makes the room a bit "cliquey" in that it's easy to identify non-members of the in-group. OTOH, if it is a clique, entry is granted as easily as reading the wiki page.
"Salad" seems to work more as a shibboleth than anything.
Yeah p. much
"Salad: because you can't have secret handshakes on the Internet"
15:07
The #Python IRC channel is pretty good too.
What was the problem about finding cycles in a list that everyone dogpiled to solve a week or two ago?
I'm having trouble finding it.
Wild speculation: the "almost looks like English" syntax of Python, attracts users with excellent linguistic ability. As a result, conversation is more fruitful on average.
Highly doubtful.
Is it true that in Python 3, module names should be all lower case?
Remember, we get our share of terrible users too.
@PM2Ring that's common convention in all versions
15:09
Terrible users are statistical outliers ;-)
@davidism Sure it's common, I just thought it was more strict in Python 3.
as long as it's a valid variable name, you're ok, although I hear there are problems if there are unicode characters even in py3
for ጀ in ['ጐትᖃ']:
  print (ጀ)
Works for me.
Yeah, I'm talking about modules with unicode filenames.
15:12
what's a good dark (mostly cool colors) theme for vim?
I don't know the exact circumstances, so I'm sure you could come up with unicode filenames that do work.
@corvid solarized is the one everyone seems to like
There's a module of Python bindings for EyeD3, an MP3 tag manipulation thingy. In Py 2 the module's named "eyeD3", but I suspect that in Py 3 it's "eyed3". And if so, it's causing major confusion in this question.
It depends. I'm a big fan of darkblue on windows.
But the colors are pretty wildly different depending on whether you're in xterm or a gui.
I use tango on the terminal, and darcula in pycharm.
You've reminded me of my dead Hello Kitty vim colorscheme. Maybe it's time to raise the dead.
15:20
Python, Jinja2 nl2br and security unclear, needs code demonstrating problem
@Ffisegydd omg.. first five minutes on the rower.. I have no idea where I am right now.. I'm burning.. (as you predicted..)
but! I made 1km in 5 minutes ;)
@ThiefMaster am I missing something on that Jinja question? As far as I can tell, the example filter already uses the escape function.
Are you sure it doesn't use the one from markupsafe?
yeah.. from markupsafe import Markup, escape, soft_unicode
Phone interview done. Another face-to-face interview sorted.
It has from jinja2 import escape, and calls that before marking the content safe.
15:31
@PeterVaro: Did you get your sphere rotation issue sorted? If not, this might be helpful: Rotate a point about an arbitrary axis (3 dimensions)
@Peter :D I'm glad you've had a thorough exercise
@davidism: My comment was targeted to the guy posting the answer who uses cgi.escape
@ThiefMaster Long time no see, how are you?
fine ;)
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what the op's actual problem is, as it seems the code he linked to is fine already.
15:32
oh, you pointed to jinja's escape function. i thought you'd be linking to the filter or autoescape extension... -> comment deleted
@PM2Ring Oh yes, I wrapped the linmath.h "lib" in python, and then did the whole thing with vertices and matrices :)
Cool.
hi, someone there with some exprience in mapreduce programs using python?
@PM2Ring but thanks for the link!
At least on my friend's system unicode modules seem to work.
import ጣ

ጣ.ጤ(ጣ.ጥ)
15:33
oh my god, why does python even support this?
anything but strings/comments in code files should be pure ascii
Its non-judgmental.
@Ffisegydd I hope I won't give up after a few weeks..
i'd say this is about as terrible as allowing different indentation styles in a single file as long as each block is consistent...
def foo():
    bar()
    if blah:
          xxx()
IMO that should be an IndentationError.. or StupidProgrammerError
@ThiefMaster When the ghosts of ancient Egypt rise again to claim the earth, your views on Unicode will not be judged kindly.
12
is there a full set of heiroglyphics in unicode somewhere?
15:35
Oh, I wonder if Hieroglyphics work.
Yea
morning cbg all
@PeterVaro Paul's got some great stuff on his site. And he's a POV-Ray user from way back, so his diagrams are generally excellent :)
@QuestionC like I said, I'm sure some unicode module names work, but I'm pretty sure there's various bugs related to it too
or maybe it's all been fixed, who knows?
import ጣ

ጣ.ጤ(ጣ.ጥ)

for 𓀀 in '𓀁𓀂':
    print(𓀀)
@QuestionC Wow. Your unicode is breaking my browser.
I just see question marks now.
15:38
@ThiefMaster I tend to agree, but I guess such attitudes are considered old-fashioned. OTOH, I remember when you couldn't even use lower-case in program code. :)
GOTO 1970
@davidism I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm still pretty impressed it can handle obscure unicode.
10   GOTO 1984
20   LOAD FREEDOM
1984 LOAD NEWSPEAK
Those ?s are the Hieroglyphic characters. I haven't found anything that renders them correctly yet.
comefrom .onenineeightfour
load('Brave New World')
Take full advantage of the wondrous Python goto module!
DSM
DSM
15:47
@QuestionC: what is the font in your for loop? It's been a while since I've seen characters which were unknown-unicode-boxed for me.
ʀʜᴜʙᴀʀʙ
U00013000 - U00013002

It doesn't render for me either.
But it runs.
everything is ruined forever :|
It might be me being really slow... but I've noticed on the new profile page you're able to select which badge to track - that's kinda cool
@QuestionC You mean this?
15:58
Thanks!

Someone is having the same problem with matlab. Figured it'd be a good link to throw at him.
Wow, that got even more popular.
Got it working.

http://i.imgur.com/ffGESs5.png
@davidism I think the bounty helped, and of course being the most viewed/upvoted Q in the last 30 days (10k+ link) creates a feedback loop of its own.
I think it's BBQ weather this weekend. Ah, the great British hopefulness...
Yesterday it was room temperature outside. I'm hoping for a couple more of those before I start complaining about the heat
I only enjoy the weather for like two weeks out of the year. Less than that if the pollen count is high at the time.
16:12
Got 4th interview confirmed for week on Monday. Data Science Consultant.
Wow, you're on a roll. Have you heard back from anywhere?
Should I get the job I will be changing my name to BritDSM.
I haven't actually interviewed face to face anywhere yet
Interviewing tip: don't bring your mother with you.
At the very least, make her wait in the car.
did that happen?!
Heh. No, but it was a close call. When I was just out of school and doing a round of interviews, she was like "maybe I should go there with you..." but dad quickly shot down the prospect.
I'm glad he did, because I couldn't think of a tactful way of saying "there's no way that will leave a good impression"
In the end, I nailed their ninety minute written computering quiz, but they never called me back. Since my technical ability wasn't in question, I guess they were repelled by my abhorrent personality :-)
16:23
ah found the best dark theme... Tomorrow-Night-Bright, perfect theme imo
@Kevin "What kind of horrible person doesn't bring their mother to our interview?"
@corvid oh yeah, I forgot about the tomorrow theme, it's a good one
I tried solarized that you recommended, it was pretty good as well
Here at Industrial Liquidation and Fish Gutting Corp, we're not just a company, we're family. Why didn't you bring your family? tsk tsk tsk.
is that something for solr search thing?
I'm about to crack the top 2% ranked by rep. Conservatively by end of next week.
16:26
Nice.
@JoranBeasley it's a terminal/editor theme
I wrote a meta answer (meta.stackexchange.com/questions/137990/…) that I keep referring back to that I use to calculate it, but I'd do better to just write up a query.
I'm watching a Fedora setup training on Lynda.com
16:30
I believe you once professed admiration for snow leopards.
@Ffisegydd :O that's awesome!
I think solarized is based on a flawed theory
I don't find it very useful myself
He sells it hard though
yeah, I like tomorrow more than solarized
show me tomorrow
16:36
it's a joke. :D
It's all very "Who's On First"
@AaronHall just you wait, yesterday I'll get you with my time machine!
We hired a guy named Hu. First and last name. He's pretty bright. But we're all Abbot and Costello now.
Hu's taking care of this? Right.
There's nothing anyone with an unusual name likes more than hearing the same jokes about it every day ;-P
heh we just bought a washer dryer set that I can control from my smart phone ... O.o
16:41
We don't do it in front of him, and when not around him, we speak respectfully of him.
without having to use an arduino middle man or something (since really you can now control anything with your phone using an arduino)
Look like Tomorrow can work on both light and dark schemes with no tweaking?
Because that would be ideal
So SQLAlchemy is on 1.0?
implications?
Lots of new stuff, check out the migration guide and changelog.
implies that it will break 100% of your pre 1.0 code
oh, great
I've been telling people to use it
16:50
However, it should work just fine moving from 0.9 to 1.0. Joran's just being silly.
Right, who here has experience compiling stuff for Windows?
why does everyone use it if it wasn't at 1.0 yet?
@VOTProductions Just ask a question, don't ask to ask: sopython.com/chatroom
@AaronHall because version numbers don't matter
I've compiled toy things in cygwin, I just followed directions, I think.
the answer is you need visual studio 2008
16:51
Until they change.
Well I forgot about that. gist.github.com/shimizukawa/4634344 is making me suicidal.
it was already stable, active, and well supported before the version number incremented arbitrarily
I have compiled my own C++ projects, which have only rarely required anything more complicated than g++ main.cpp
theres lots of prebuilt windows binaries for pil
16:52
I'm trying to compile Pillow from git as a commit contains a fix to my problems.
My go to answer, as always: Don't use Windows.
so whats the problems?
Can someone explain to me, why is its setup.py complaining about the lack of setuptools, but pip install says I have it?
Looking at the build process, Pillow has like 6 dependencies. I do not envy you.
@VOTProductions Versioning problem, maybe. Do you have both 2.7 and 3.X?
16:53
^^
davidism: Yep, compiling on Linux and getting all the dependencies took me about.. 3 seconds.
Nope, just Python 3.4.
Good, problem solved, ditch Windows completely, it's just a pain for everyone involved.
davidism: Now tell that to the users of my program :P
OK, bring them over
Davidism and Mr Pipe Wrench will have a nice chat with them
3
DSM
DSM
16:55
Did someone already link the make-Java-look-like-Python image that's floating around? I often have adblock suppress images here so I might have missed it.
unfortunately VOT i doubt this room will be much help ... build problems are rough ... you prolly need to find someone who will help you via remote desktop or something
I hear the C++ room is very helpful.
DSM
DSM
+1 callback
Hm OK, I'll go to the C++ room, back in a bit :P
But seriously, there's no way we can really know what's wrong, especially with just the vague information you've given us.
16:57
@AaronHall it's very something for sure :)
@DSM Yeah, a while back ...
Um, I can't find the C++ room xD
They may be hiding.
DSM
DSM
They hide. And so
aaaargh
Kevin!!!
Well all dependencies compile fine, it's just that final Pillow bit with the setuptools thing.
16:58
My superior American latency wins again!
DSM
DSM
Maybe it's best we don't know each other in real life. My current friends would say "Oh, yeah, DSM. He's like Kevin, just slower."
Odd thing is, I can go to the CLI Python and type in import setuptools, works fine.
DSM
DSM
It really sounds like you've got more than one Python.

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