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20:00
Tempted to meta that, ask what you should do when you find someone doing that.
Maybe flag to merge?
Although the other doesn't really add anything.
DSM
DSM
Merges are like zebras: often spoken of, rarely seen.
And don't forget the majestic "locked for historic purposes" giraffe.
Well - I don't care about the age... some older questions deserve to be closed as dupe to newer ones... but it doesn't add anything at all... just strikes me as underhand
I don't suppose flagging for mod attention is applicable? It's abuse of gold badge powers.
20:03
and I can't get involved swapping them around as it might be seen as dupe hammer abuse and end up me that looks self interested
DSM
DSM
Possibly he misread the datestamps. (I've done dumber things.)
I voted reopen.
Same.
mind you, I've had some interesting comments from wim in the past :)
DSM
DSM
Oh, wait. His question was only a few weeks ago. That rules out my off-by-a-year theory.
20:05
@DSM Oh... yeah... I've mis-read those plenty of times
Cabbage all! :D
it's weird submitting bug reports... it seems much more likely that I made a mistake than these people :\
Never misread Jan 9 '13 and Jul 24 though
DSM
DSM
@corvid: just be careful to only submit one or at most two. If you submit more than that you wind up with responsibilities..
meh, it's against flask, flask is usually good
user559633
20:08
systemd won the init war, right?
DSM
DSM
Okay, I cast my (deciding) reopen vote. It's probably a duplicate of something else, but it shouldn't have been hammered in favour of that target.
yes, it is now the alpha init, and will defend it territory fiercely
user559633
oh cool. i like it when i expect a hamster and get a pig
@DSM that's probably a reasonable compromise
I'm sure mine is probably a dupe of something - that must have been asked before... and I don't mind it being closed as such... but that just seemed remarkably underhanded
DSM
DSM
@Kevin: as a result of our earlier conversation I now have the theme song from Clifford running through my head. So thanks.
20:11
Is there some policy for mentioning "this question is considered canonical, discuss further in chat"?
Sorry :-)
can you "disable" a decorator through an argument in running a flask app somehow?
yes, but why would you want to do that?
I've asked in Tavern for clarification.
@davidism that template thing I kinda totally stole from you, just want to set a flag to say "give me just the data as a jsonify response", for debugging purposes really
also if I want to put angular or a front end framework later
user559633
20:14
goodbye forever all. dealing with parallelism has made me decide to switch to C++.
@tristan can I have your stuff if you're leaving?
well, you should have waited until I implemented json responses in it, that was just a proof of concept :)
user559633
@Ffisegydd haha, sure.
@DSM Clifford? What the heck?
@tristan you're going to the dark side? :(
or is it the light side
which one are we again?
People in Tavern suggest flagging for mod attention if we suspect abuse, though one question does not abuse make.
20:17
Our hats don't have skulls on them, so our allegiance is ambiguous.
user559633
The brighter side. Yam this.
@Ffisegydd I'd hope not... I think we've reached a good compromise... might be good to find something to close as for the records though
It obviously pops up a few times, so it should be on the canon list
user559633
I'll probably get multiprocessing sorted and then stop for a couple months. Anything sufficiently complicated or intensive -- parallelism/c-bridge related and the documentation just gives up trying.
Eugh, I can't think of a project to start ;-;
for some reason I can't log in to chat.meta.se, even though I'm logged in to meta.se
20:20
@Iplodman build me a pony from Python.
Code me a facebook
clicking log in just redirects back to the same place, no change
@Ffisegydd A virtual pony? Elaborate!
user559633
And then there's the whole 3.4 against what people actually want and the sad performance. I was kind of kidding before, but now I'm sort of at the "it's a neat prototyping language...sometimes" point.
@Iplodman both virtual and real.
A cyborg pony!
20:22
jets on hooves
user559633
One more word and someone is going to lock Python 2.7.8 and I in a room and make us take LSD together and talk about our feelings.
@davidism whatcha mean by json responses in it? Isn't a rendered template a response in and of itself?
@tristan sounds like a party.
@Ffisegydd I'll need to get my hands on four motors, some synthetic flesh, a microprocessor and some cameras.
Always, I want to be with you. And make believe with you. And live in harmony harmony oh love!
user559633
20:23
@Zhouster don't try to robot unicorn me into feeling better
the decorator will decide what to return based on the request
@tristan But... but... oh love!
for testing template context, you can use the template_rendered signal
Umm... can't see close votes a user has cast
Has anyone got any project ideas that don't require pony homicide?
20:25
Phacebook.
Build a photomosaic generator.
DSM
DSM
@JonClements: the song tells the story.
Nurikabe solver.
Tumblr, but for dogs
user559633
Tumblr, but not for dogs.
A text adventure that doesn't crash after a thousand turns.
fixed it, had to logout then login
And I can't see anything on there - so most likely a one off
@Iplodman something involving procedural generation.
@Ffisegydd That sounds like fun :O
Wow - that really shows the re-open queue is slow...
DSM
DSM
20:28
@Kevin: I see what you did there. :^)
@Iplodman I've never done it myself but my friend does a lot of it in hobby projects.
But it's pretty funky.
Write the "Matrix" so we can put all non-Python people in it...
@Ffisegydd Maybe a map generator?
I don't think I'm going to hit the rep limit today, 38 short and can't find anything to answer.
20:30
Wat no! You're catching me up again.
yup, was exactly 100 down at one point, but downvoted some answers
Just got an accept. 248 to 5k.
Okay guys... everyone put a biscuit in the jar... are we backing @davidism or @Ffisegydd.... :)
@davidism upvotes are available for sale mate :)
yeah, I could hit the limit for just $5... or 1 scooby snack?
2 scooby snacks!
20:36
@Ffisegydd simple answer... +1 from me
(simple as in good... not as in .... oh you know what I mean)
user559633
@Ffisegydd link to accept
If you all asked more Flask and SQLAlchemy questions, I'd have a much easier time. :)
user559633
I'm going to search for posts related to answers i've already written
Don't you all want to learn matplotlib? Ask your questions now!
Hello, stylistic question. Which is better, python setup.py foo or ./setup.py foo?
20:39
I make learning fun!
Oh, and cabbage and stuff.
@Ffisegydd I have one! What the yam does it do?!
either
I make learning sexy!
I like tikz
20:40
Dude, NSFW.
DSM
DSM
Didn't we already set a policy against such links?
@davidism Yes, it's got naked plots.
DSM
DSM
True story: once one of my graphs made it to the cover of a certain physicsy journal. Only then did I notice I forgot to put units on one of the axes. The shame haunts me still.
I'm going to bed, you can discuss my naked graphs without me.
user559633
we always do
20:45
Do we all suffer from ADHD - conversations seem to - my wall is painted white how cool is that... I like chasing rabbits... so what about graphs?
Let's all ponder the extremely important questions: like python setup.py foo or ./setup.py foo?
You can only do ./setup.py foo if your file is marked as +x (and has a suitable she-bang line)
You should definitely do python3 setup.py :D
First for me
If it's oft used, then do that... for a once of setup, I would go for the more explicit approach directly calling the interpreter required on the file
20:49
I always use 'python setup.py' in docs to ilustrate that it's python, but personally do +x hashbang to use ./setup.py.
DSM
DSM
I'm far too lazy to add shebang lines. python awesomecode.py for me.
user559633
Faheem python ./setup.py. Windows doesn't have an equivalent /usr/bin/env shebang because it's a joke OS
@DSM you and your darned tune thingy...
user559633
You'd have to #!file://to/python.exe or expand the envvar, which is still totally not the same thing.
Animals keep on ripping my garbage to pieces. I need to go mark my territory. Rbrb gonna go pee on my garbage.
3
user559633
20:53
Apply directly to the animals. Really show them you mean business.
"star this message as useful / interesting for the transcript" - umm, okay then....
@Ffisegydd take one of them, decapitate it and stick it on a pole as a deterent
oh darn it, my rule as "King of Puns" is now over
Shotgun next!
I've worked out why the reports aren't adding up
because I'm merging legacy and a new system, and the legacy one lacked many features... some of the staff were shown how to use MySQLadmin as a work around for various things the UI didn't support...
DSM
DSM
And that's how thousands of pounds can go missing?
user559633
Is there an except for standard returns?
DSM
DSM
21:01
Pretty sure not.
user559633
or do I need to do an if? socket.py returns what should be an exception as a standard return like a stupid jerk (return getattr(self._sock,name)(*args) --> error: [Errno 48] Address already in use)
DSM
DSM
What's the type of the return value?
well... it appears a few unique constraints were dropped
and because of the completely foolish way the original system was designed, someone went in to delete "some stuff" and err, it was a cascade on delete
Ok, thanks for the feedback, everyone.
user559633
not sure @DSM, have to fight to get it
21:05
I need one more rep to comment >_<
so same invoice numbers for multiple clients, with different amounts, related to different things, with some stuff missing... at least I know why... it's now how to fix it
user559633
oh, it's a NoneType. @DSM lol for monkeypatching stdlib
DSM
DSM
So it prints the error message, but returns None? Not sure how I feel about that.
user559633
<type 'NoneType'>
user559633
yeah, it's pretty awful.
user559633
21:09
the other complication is that the getattr makes the behavior an instance method
user559633
so i can only really tell on instantiation
Ummm... just found the pair of earphones I lost
user559633
is there a preview of a question that I can share with the room?
@DSM could you explain why you vote that this and this are not dupes? thanks! — wim 3 mins ago
@DSM you've been noticed
mrw I saw +5 rep and can now comment www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFlcqWQVVuU
DSM
DSM
21:26
@Jon: I responded.
@DSM should be interesting...
DSM
DSM
@Johndt6: just remember to use your comment powers for good.
user559633
Argh. Answered my own question.
DSM
DSM
Better than not answering it, surely?
user559633
Sure, I guess. Writing it up now for a self-answer
21:39
@Johndt6 you won't need them just yet until you're more involved in the day to day of the site and have a feel for it, but we have some prepared comments that are carefully worded and available for use on sopython.com/wiki/1 - but yes, as @DSM mentions - use your priv. to comment on posts constructively :)
wb @JohanLarsson
@tristan so you've rubber ducked your own post? :)
@DSM @JonClements Oh I will! :)
I made a clarification on a Django question
And I'll read the wiki link
user559633
yeah @JonClements -- i'm writing it up now so i can post and self-answer for the sake of others
@tristan give a yell when it's done - be interesting to take a look :)
21:45
hi
I'm in that unfortunate stage of being able to find the answer to most of my questions on my own (as most everything has already been asked), but not being knowledgeable enough to really answer questions
@JuanPablo wow... where you been!? How ya doing?
hi Jon! :)
DSM
DSM
@Johndt6: unfortunately that state can persist for a long time. I try not to let it stop me, though. Sympathy upvotes for the win!
when I make tests, I use grunt for automatically launch the test when a file is modified
21:47
@Johndt6 well - that's certainly valid from one point, but also, don't forget technology moves forward so quickly, there's always going to be something left un-answered. And, I'm fairly sure, there's better answers available for existing questions... - still plenty of wriggle room.
when you make TDD, you use some python file watcher for run tests ?
@JuanPablo is this inside a framework of some sort?~
no @Jon , without framework
why? you use some tests framework for TDD ?
user559633
Where's the canonical python source repo?
user559633
I want to look at the C for _socket.so
21:50
@JonClements Yep, sometimes I can't find an answer, and so I have asked a couple questions. If I ever see a question that I believe I can fully answer than ofc I will. Most new questions seem to be pretty specific, though, in fields that I'm not an expert in
user559633
danke puppy
(then cpython)
@Johndt6 it all comes in time - if you're willing and eager
I have a serious question here -- yeah, I was walking my dog again -- are we (as developers) do the same thing over and over again?
don't get obsessed by rep... I know it's nice to have certain privileges on the site - but the main thing is, it's a community thing and we all help each other out where we can
21:52
I mean, we build the same data structures, logical layers, we even use the same variable names most of the time
it's almost doesn't matter which language we are using, or what kind of paradigm we follow
we are facing with problems, which have already been solved hundred times before us
is this the truth?
@Peter no... the good ones re-use existing data structures, re-use good abstraction, and keep with the same names for consistency and understandability
Hopefully :) I'm just about getting to the point where I can answer Django questions. And no, I don't really care about rep-- It's just unfortunate when there's a circumstance where i could contribute to the site, but don't have enough rep to.
@JonClements which is the exact same thing as I mentioned above
only the project-name and clients are changing
but the problem and the solution stay the same
DSM
DSM
Not everything fits into a formal capital-P Pattern, but a lot of stuff does.
user559633
Where would I actually find the source for the .so files though? e.g. _socket.so
21:56
@DSM there are always corner-cases I guess, as there are many areas to research (create new algorithms for example)
Rhubarb all :P
however as an "application" or "service" developer -- you don't face these challanges
user559633
I assume _socket.so isn't compiled python
and even if you do, you try to use existing ones
rbrb @Iplodman
user559633
e.g. i've found this, but it references a layer deeper I think
@Peter it's like I've said to you before - you're trying to learn from scratch, when what you should be doing is taking something that people (way more proficient than you or I) have developed over years, that's tested and proven to work
get your project working, then de-construct and re-build
@JonClements I think those days are gone very long time ago -- I mean, I use 3rd party libs and solution 70% of my time
I wasn't talking about that
I was talking about the 30%
the "how you connect the 70% together"
A fair amount of it is the same... if you're able to recognise it is :)
Or some people assume it's the same and re-use stuff because they're comfortable with it
@JonClements I think I did -- that's why I was asking the above question.. (or I should say: I was wondering about it)
DSM
DSM
@Jon: meta
22:04
@DSM ooo... do I comment or not
DSM
DSM
As the wielder in question I'm going to comment; I don't think you need to.
anyway, my question boils down to this: is programming a creative job or not? does it requires creative skills (especially unexpected problem solving) or it is just: recognise the the problem as a standard one and use the required and already available solution?
or -- is creativity all about pattern-recognition?
I mean, when you are doing art or design -- do you do the same thing? Recognise patterns?
DSM
DSM
@JonClements: I tried to summarize my take in a comment.
@DSM do you have time to make that an answer? Explaining things?
DSM
DSM
Not sure what I'd say in an answer which I didn't say there.
.. okay, time to head to the gym. Rhubarb for all!
22:16
the torrent sites are full with robin williams' films..
user559633
@PeterVaro as such that any sort of formulaic art involves pattern recognition and completion strategies, so is programming
user559633
however, such that art can be an expression, so can programming.
@DSM rbrb
user559633
the limitations of "an artist" are his tools and inputs, for us, same, plus codifying for repetition
@tristan I know it can -- anything can tbh -- the question is: is creativity all about connecting existing things as a pattern as respond to a recognised problem?
the only thing changes is the set of tools?
written word vs paint or clay vs bytes?
user559633
22:19
this is kind of a "what is perception" question
it's a word?
starts with a p, ends with an n
@tristan something like that, more of what's going outside from the inside not what's coming inside from the outside
has other letters in the middle
there ya go, problem solved
user559633
in that our responses to stimuli and our reactions to patterns and outliers define our reactions and expressions
user559633
rbrb there's lamb and wine waiting for me at home, i want to hear your ideas on it so will read back later
22:24
@tristan bon appetit (it sounds delicious)
we will continue this later on.. I have mixed feelings and thought about this topic
need more time to get to a conclusion..
cbg @odai
i'm trying to deploy my app to pythonanywhere
i.imgur.com/hdtQxLt.png , here's how my app looks
23:03
oh well, answered anyway
heya @wim - good to see you
wim
wim
hi
I came to look for your rant but dont see it
@wim how about not focusing on the rant, but finding a good dupe?
wim
wim
well i don't really agree that there has to be some canonical one, thats kind of a waste of time .. just that they are linked up in some way is what's useful
That's fine... then we link them in the order of the quality of the answers
wim
wim
I won't bother to close dupes any more if its a touchy area , just asked on meta to gauge the rest of the community opinions on the matter
23:11
definitely continue closing dupes - I'm tired of seeing them day in, day out
wim
wim
its no coincidence that it was my own answer of course, thats how I recognised immediately the chain of dupes
@wim if that one had better quality answers, I couldn't have cared
wim
wim
well I'm not going to if it means I collect downvotes
it has an exec answer or something
wim
wim
they just make you feel annoyed and unappreciated :P
23:12
@wim our answers were the same
the one on yours had an exec / eval whatever
we don't want to lead people to that
wim
wim
the globals() answer isnt much better
I agree
wim
wim
just downvote the exec one if u dont like it
I must be doing something wrong when my answer has collected more downvotes than the exec one !! :(
@wim really?
wim
wim
yeah
23:15
so I see - have an upvote
Look this isn't an afray at you
I appreciated your comments on my use of any posts, and it made me have to elaborate more which I believe actually benefited people
@wim check out our site sopython.com - maybe you can see what we're trying to achieve - and if you want to be a part of it - you're welcome
I get the feeling I'm going to regret eating some cookies & cream haagen dazs 20 past midnight sighs
wim
wim
any posts ??
wim
wim
this may be something ive forgotten completely
__builtins__.any ?
oh
@wim this one
@Lattyware IMO it is not readable because it relies on hidden prior knowledge of the implementation detail of any. Someone who has experience with python knows that it's short-circuiting and works on infinite sequences, and consumes an iterator in the obvious way. But it is quite natural to [wrongly] assume it's behaving like a set-theoretic or mathematical abstraction, for example working on unordered collections like finite sets in parallel, rather than iterating and consuming. It is for this reason that the line looks awkward and confusing, as evidenced in the comments. — wim May 29 '13 at 2:19
wim
wim
yes i had forgotten
wow thats a long comment thread
23:26
indeed
I use to live in London - where abouts are you based (if you don't mind me asking that is)?
wim
wim
near elephant & castle
awesome.... went to that bowling / shopping complex place once
I rented a flat in primrose hill for a little bit
if putting the ball in the gutter scored points, I'd have won those games :)
@wim I hate to be rude, and I sincerely appreciate your coming here - but it's after half midnight and I need to be up in 5 hours... so I shall bit you adieu for now... up to you if wish to join again, but you'll always be more than welcome
wim
wim
see ya jon
@wim night :)
23:51
quick question, how do i get a > as a string in php?
cbg btw

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