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12:10 AM
about strength distribution: not much we can say here; there's a max you can reach, and that's below 300k (maybe 270k). The distribution really varies: if a player invests money in the game, he can reach the max faster.
about buildings: they are fixed: 3 with 3 spots, 6 with 4, 1 with 7. 20 spots (3*3+4+7) contain "red enemies" that you must fight with red champions, and 20 spots (5*4) contain "blue enemies" that you must fight with blue champions. every day I plan this battle with 19 other players (total 20) in my team, each of them comes with one red team and one blue team. each player ca
@smci not sure the above tag suggested by SO is correct, here's another one
 
1:05 AM
@vault Ok that's another complexity. What happens if you assign a red champion to attack a blue enemy, I presume either yours has strength 0 (or -1, or whatever) or that's not even legal placement. So this means 'strength' is a really a vector with two components: <Red_strength, Blue_strength>
@vault Can you just draw us an approx histogram of both your champions strengths, other players' champion strengths, and enemy champions strengths? I'm guessing it's something negative-exponential, and truncated at whatever the max strength is.
 
@Aran-Fey If you have 2 gold, reroll and freeze if you have an item then you get a ~20% increased chance of starting the next turn with at least one item. Additionally do you really get much out of the 1 gold, if you're asking how to waste 2+ of them at the end of the turn anyway? With more info you could probably get more accurate chances.
 
wim
literally and figuratively x y question stackoverflow.com/q/61925548/674039
 
 
5 hours later…
6:11 AM
@wim yep, more importantly, the session won't affect any implicit requests
 
 
2 hours later…
8:24 AM
@Aran-Fey What's the point in carrying 1 gold across (buy for 2, sell for 1) if everything costs 2? Unless you go full munchkin and buy for 10, buy for 10, ..., sell everything.
 
Good morning from Athens.
I am trying to install shout module in python3 (Ubuntu 20.04)

The code i am running is: pip3 install python-shout3
Output:
`Collecting python-shout3
Downloading python-shout3-0.2.6.tar.gz (7.4 kB)
ERROR: Command errored out with exit status 1:
command: /usr/bin/python3 -c 'import sys, setuptools, tokenize; sys.argv[0] = '"'"'/tmp/pip-install-h_6lvoqx/python-shout3/setup.py'"'"'; __file__='"'"'/tmp/pip-install-h_6lvoqx/python-shout3/setup.py'"'"';f=getattr(tokenize, '"'"'open'"'"', open)(__file__);code=f.read().replace('"'"'\r\n'"'"', '"'"'\n'"'"');f.close();exec(compile(code, __file__, '"'"'exec'"'"'))' egg_info --egg-base /tmp/pip-install-h_6lvoqx/python-shout3/pip-egg-info
Is there any dependency?
 
8:49 AM
https://pypi.org/project/python-shout3/#modal-close

It prints:
`Using PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/lib/pkgconfig
pkg-config and shout-config unavailable, build terminated`
 
Did you install libshout3 and libshout3-dev before installing this package?
 
I can't found this modules.
 
That means you didn't, yes?
 
Yes i didn't this.
 
Both should be available via apt-get, by the way.
I recommend you install them, since the docs you linked explicitly say you must install them.
 
8:55 AM
Worked now.
The first one, didn't find it with apt-get.
But i installed then second
and then the python-shout3 module..
Thanks MisteryMiy
 
9:19 AM
while True:
      m, n = random.randint(0, self.row-1), random.randint(0, self.col-1)
      if (m, n) not in self.flipped:
          self.flipped.add((m, n))
          return [m, n]
what do you guys think about that return statement?
should there be another one if (m,n) is in flipped? (a tab in to the left)
 
9:36 AM
@Permian that would change behaviour, so only you can tell
As it is now it loops until not flipped. With another return it would only try once
 
yeah i dont think it works
 
9:54 AM
@Permian What is the purpose of this code?
 
To solve some leetcode problem, duh
 
For some reason, my head reads that with the voice of William Shatner.
 
10:36 AM
does someone know a dupe for using range to iterate? The Q is accumulating some low-quality answers fast.
 
Done
 
 
1 hour later…
11:50 AM
I set up a local ms sql server and created a database , now I want to connect with pyodbc to the database , I use the same paramters to connect to the database with this command
cnxn = pyodbc.connect(Driver="{SQL Server};",Server="DSKTOP-LTPNI10\MASTER;",
                      Database="Firstdatabase;",user="******",pwd="******")
but get en error message that Im unable to connect to the server
do I need to specify the local server ?
 
12:25 PM
Compare with the connection string on this page
Note that connect is taking a single connection string, not a series of named args. I don't have pyodbc installed, but from the interactive interpreter, import pyodbc and then do help(pyodbc.connect) and hopefully the docstring might give more insight into what is needed.
Google also turns up a number of answered questions on SO on how to do this, with numerous examples.
Finally, when running on Windows, you will often need to create strings with "\"s. Get used to using raw string literals (like this: r"DSKTOP-LTPNI10\MASTER"). The leading "r" tells the python interpreter to treat '\'s in the string as just '\'s, not as an escape for the next character or as a lead for '\t', '\n', etc.
 
thanks, I tried it before , I think the problem lays with the fire wall settings I try to change them
 
user11006952
12:45 PM
@wim Ah! Got it. Thanks.
 
1:13 PM
Trying to brush up on my statistics 101 knowledge... If my hypothesis is "the urn contains only red balls", what should my null hypothesis be? "the urn contains balls of any color"? If I draw two balls from the urn*, and they're both red, how confident should I be in my hypothesis?
(*either with replacement or without, whichever makes the math easier)
 
@Kevin "there's at least one non-(red ball) in the urn"
 
I feel like I can't put any numbers on my confidence unless I know something ahead of time about the possible distribution of non-red colors. If I know the balls are manufactured by a company that only makes red, blue, and green balls, then the odds of drawing two reds given the null hypothesis is 11%. If the balls could be any 8 bit color, then the odds of drawing two #FF0000 balls is like 3e-15.
 
smci linked a post last night about p-values and how they're abused. The bottom line is "it's hard"
 
when I have a local ms sql server and want to run a query with a python script ist this a remote access ?
 
Perhaps I should assume that there is a real continuous distribution of colors in 3d space, and I should define some criteria for redness that demarcates a nonzero-volume volume from that space
Something like "a sphere of radius 2 centered on #FF0000"
(handwaving away any concerns about the ability of RGB to accurately represent the full range of human vision)
Then the null hypothesis would be "there is a ((4/3) * math.pi * (2**3)) / (256**3) ~= 2e-6 chance that the ball you draw from the urn will be reddish"
or should it be (4/3) * math.pi * (2**3) / 8 / (256**3), because 7/8ths of the sphere around #FF0000 is out of range since it's on the corner of the colorspace cube...
Hypothesis: null hypotheses are easy.
Null hypothesis: null hypotheses are hard.
Experiment: the last five paragraphs
Hypothesis rejected.
It's fine if it's difficult. All this is for a personal project where I'm trying to suss out the inner workings of a system that doesn't follow easily observable rules. The only consequence of me having shoddy null hypotheses is that I'll waste time trying to reject things I should be confident about, or I'll run into a blind alley because I was overly confident about something I should have rejected.
I just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing some low-hanging fruit. I'm good as long as I get to the end of this and a passerby doesn't say "fool, if you had applied Andras' Lemma, then you could have reached 95% confidence in 10 hours of testing instead of 100"
 
1:38 PM
Andras is not very good with lemmata
 
That's why Andras' Lemma is on page 5 of statistics 101, because it can be derived without using any other lemmata
You ever look at something like Hooke's Law and think "it's just multiplying two numbers, I bet I could have invented that if I was born three hundred years earlier"?
 
@PaulMcG Code is on github now
 
Maybe there's something like that out there in Statistics just waiting to be discovered. Here, I'll start: H0 = (Ψ + Ω) / ☃. Now you just need to define the symbols.
Me: "you have an `except` block that produces no output, so you won't be able to tell what exception is being raised, or even whether an exception is being raised at all"
OP: "good point. I put `print()` in the block, and it printed a newline, so I know an exception is occurring. Can you solve my problem now?"
Me: ಠ_ಠ
 
@Kevin At least they rejected the Null Hypothesis "No Exception is raised"
 
huh, mini scrollbar
 
1:52 PM
I guess it's an improvement over their original hypothesis, "it doesn't work"
Whoops, I forgot to use actionable language when I responded with "ok, so the next step is to remove the except entirely and see what the stack trace is". Possibly the OP is now twiddling their thumbs, thinking "when is Kevin going to hurry up and run my code without the except so he can tell me what the result is?"
Kevin's razor: if a comment can be interpreted in a way that does not obligate the OP to do additional work, then the OP will interpret it that way.
 
2:19 PM
Miyagi's razor: if a comment warrants interpretation, then the OP won't bother
 
Null razor: there is zero correlation between a comment and the OP's behavior
 
Are you gonna herd together some randomly selected OPs in the name of science, or should I?
 
You do it, I'm busy writing the experimental procedure. How many cattle prods do you think we can afford with the grant money?
 
On a related note...
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, May 11 at 13:41, by PM 2Ring
So you get scenarios where you post a comment requesting the OP to clarify their question, and of course they don't edit the new information into the question, they post it as a comment with no @-ping. So you don't know they've replied, and their question doesn't get bumped (because they didn't edit it). So it just sits there, languishing.
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, May 11 at 13:42, by PM 2Ring
And then the OP gets the feeling that they're being ignored, and goes off and sulks...
 
Going off to sulk is no good. Cattle prods have limited reach.
 
2:29 PM
Seems like SO half-solved the problem by notifying you of pingless comments from the OP if you are the only other person that has commented
 
@PM2Ring now you get a ping if you follow...
 
All the downsides of the follow feature are less annoying than not following, so I consider it a convincing net win.
 
(Or at least, I assume that's the condition under which I received a notification from the OP this morning. Null hypothesis: notifications are random)
 
@AndrasDeak Yep. So now I tend to Follow questions from newbie OPs.
 
@Kevin indeed it is
 
2:34 PM
@Kevin True, but the downside is that makes it harder for people to know when an @-ping is required. In that convo from the Tavern, several senior members (including a couple of mods) mentioned that they only learned the fine details recently.
 
@PM2Ring eh? I've known that for a very long time, and I'm not even that much of a power user. Definitely discoverable information, if you read meta.stackexchange.com/questions/43019/… which I've linked a dozen of times in various places.
 
Yeah, I'd prefer something more consistent/robust/intuitive, although I have no idea what that would look like
 
and when in doubt you can just ping...
 
I have a naturalistic system: I leave the tab open for an amount of time proportional to my interest in the question. If you reply after then, even with a direct ping to me, too bad.
 
@smci it's illegal to assign a red team to a blue enemy. here are some sample values: red=[235,219,198,173,157,140,139,131,127,126,121,120,117,113,113,112,112,112,110,110]; blue=[197,146,81,79,76,75,59,59,58,57,54,48,47,46,45,42,42,38,36,35]
@smci which message do you see as tagged? "@smci" (previous) or ":49430252" (this one)?
 
2:39 PM
I think it's a fair system, since a simple reply of "I'm not sure, I'll try it and get back to you" adds a couple hours to the meter
 
@AndrasDeak Sure, but the problem is that comments without an @-ping train OPs to not use @-pings. It doesn't help when the system auto-removes @-pings to the OP.
 
@PM2Ring OPs don't not-ping because of autopings. They don't know when they're autopinging people, because OP always gets pinged. I think this is a red herring.
OPs are merely clueless
 
FWIW, I assumed for a long time that commenters are auto-subscribed to the respective comment thread.
Being unsubscribed because some random dude also added a random comment did not occur to me.
 
@AndrasDeak It's hard to argue against that...
@MisterMiyagi That appears to be a fairly common belief. That was the case with those mods I mentioned earlier.
 
I wonder if any data has been gathered about what proportion of clueless 1 rep OPs [quickly get discouraged and leave the site | continue to ask clueless questions indefinitely | shed their cluelessness and become upstanding users], and what the time frame looks like for each case
If the majority of clueless users become clueful after two clueless posts, then it's not worth much energy in optimizing the clueless-to-clueful pipeline.
I don't trust my intuitions about how many permanently clueless OPs are out there, because of the "first grade teacher problem": "I've been teaching for twenty years, you'd think some of these kids would know calculus by now"
 
2:56 PM
Do you have a metric for cluefulness already, or should I get the cattle prod again?
 
I think some people have attempted to measure that, using SEDE queries. It's hard to know how accurate those figures are, though. One confounding factor is OPs who create a new "burner" account each time they want to ask a question.
 
"Makes posts that consistently receive positive scores" might correlate with cluefulness.
 
Reminder: The pandas tag exists.
 
Divide all confidence values by the clueless/clueful ratio of the average voter, separated by tag
If most pandas upvotes come from people that say "this looks right to me, probably", then votes are a poorer judge of cluefulness compared to a tag where people actually verify answers as producing the desired output
 
Sounds like page-rank to me. Does SEDE provide data appropriate for that?
 
3:03 PM
I expect most new OPs to be relatively clueless. The more clueful ones find useful answers to their problems in existing questions. Unless they have a really tricky problem. Admittedly, the network and its rules can be overwhelming and complicated to newbies, even smart ones.
 
Many of the complaints about SO I see off-site are from people capable of forming complete sentences, which is good evidence for smart users getting burned by obscure regulations
It doesn't rule out the possibility of silver-tongued rascals trying to spin "they wouldn't do my homework for me" in a way that makes them look like the victim, but I reckon they're in the minority
 
But it seems like a lot of people get disoriented (or simply can't be bothered reading help pages, etc). On MSE, it's normal to get a steady stream of "lost soul" questions every day. That is, posts which were probably intended for SO, or some other specific site, but the OP ended up posting on Meta Stack Exchange instead.
Some of those posts aren't actually from lost souls, but from rascals trying to evade a question ban, but they're in the minority, as far as I can tell.
 
@Kevin loud minority though, for sure
 
I believe I have fixed the recursion bug that came up during yesterday's plusminus tests, and have made the formula output a little nicer-looking - online demo has been updated with fixes. Thanks again everyone for your volunteer testing.
 
There's also the loud minority of people who think we're mean / cruel / stupid, etc, because Stack Exchange doesn't work the way they think it ought to work.
 
3:15 PM
"The text we can get users to absorb before making their first post" is a precious resource, and probably too scarce to make all well-meaning-but-clueless users into clueful users. Basically the best we can do is optimize it to reduce the total annoyance that regulars are exposed to. Lost souls on MSE probably won't ever drop to zero, but maybe we can get it lower.
Null hypothesis: things will continue to be about as bad as they are now, even after we rearrange the furniture several times
 
I'm hopeful that next month's Community-a-thon will give SE employees more insight to the problems faced by newbies, and faced by regulars trying to help newbies. It may even lead to improvements to the newbie on-boarding experience. I get the impression that the CEO would like for that to happen.
 
I endorse their effort to keep trying new things, since that only goes horribly wrong about once every three years or so. e.g. changing the licensing terms on posts in a technically illegal way, treating moderators badly, etc etc
 
While I'd like to see improvements, I don't think there is much that up-front reading can fix. You either "get" Ruprecht and friends or you don't, and it is mostly a matter of experience.
People who can barely program won't understand what it means to provide a minimal, reproducible code example. Telling them thrice doesn't change that.
 
Trying to remember how quickly I grasped the concept of an MCVE during my pupal stage... I vaguely recall more than one admonishment to RTFM.
 
What's Ruprecht? I'm finding German folk lore and Stack Exchange user profiles
 
3:29 PM
It's a jocular reference to SO's unsuccesful attempt to change the MCVE acronym to something else that meant mostly the same thing, but had much less recognizability
 
Sorry. Ruprecht == ReprEx == Reproducible Example == Minimal Complete Verifyable Example == MCVE
 
Ah, MVCEs
 
The first and the last time in a long while when an employee said "sorry guys, we jumped the gun, let's do what you suggested instead". No wonder Shog had to go.
 
True, there's no substitute for experience. You have to learn some stuff the hard way. But it seems that so many kids expect they can become instant experts without expending the necessary effort.
May 16 '19 at 10:17, by PM 2Ring
Also, reprex reminds me of Ruprecht from the movie Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
 
3:34 PM
it's already been a year since then? Wow
 
Hmm, I wonder why RTFM and seven of its variants are listed in the jargon file, but MCVE has zero entries. Were people more willing to speculate on vague questions in the olden times? Or was programming a smaller subset of the hacker culture, meaning that highly personalized questions were rarer in the tech support sphere?
 
I've never even heard Dirty Rotten Scoundrels so that reference is lost on me :(
 
"How do I get my sound card working for DOOM?" being less vague then "how do I print a triangle of asterisks?" despite being about the same length
 
@Kevin MCVE is SO jargon, created by Shog, IIRC. Before MCVE, the acronym was SSCCE
 
Perhaps much can be chalked up to "Usenet's average IQ in its heyday was higher than the Internet's IQ now, owing to differences in barriers to entry"
 
3:40 PM
@Peilonrayz It's a pretty good movie, IMHO. It helps if you like Steve Martin &/or Michael Caine.
 
@PM2Ring True. I wasn't so much surprised by the absence of "MCVE" specifically in the jargon file, but rather the lack of any term with an equivalent meaning
To say "they just didn't have a name for it in the olden days" begs the question*, "why didn't they?"
(*yes, I know I'm using "begs the question" wrong. I like it better this way)
Haven't yet ruled out "they did have a term, you just didn't see it as you quickly scrolled through the glossary"
 
tex.SE uses MWE
 
@Kevin I assumed gentlemen of that time would just react the British way, call it "a jolly interesting question, dear chap", log off and snigger for the rest of the day.
 
I'm tempted to say "surely our ancestors would never miss an opportunity to call someone an idiot and incite a flame war", but maybe shouting about the vagueness of a question makes for worse kindling than, say, "this wouldn't even be a problem if you switched from Micro$uck to Linux"
 
How are you guys doing?
 
3:56 PM
ebullient in both the sense of "cheerful" and "frothing"
 
I've been using Nix a lot lately and it makes me want to go on the road showing it off.
(That's Nix the build-tool/package manager/OS)
 
The good news: some covid restrictions are being eased, eg cafes & restaurants can now have dine-in customers, but with limited numbers & times. The bad news: the weather is starting to get wintery, and wind & heavy rain is predicted for most of the next week or so. So going outside isn't very appealing.
 
stay safe
 
Speak of the devil, why don't I ever see Corvid anymore?
Oh, Covid restrictions...
(a very quiet badum tish)
 
Conspiracy theory: the government eased restrictions exactly as cold weather rolled in, knowing that the amount of isolation would stay mostly the same. Net effect: nothing changes except the politician's approval rating.
I last saw corvid maybe a month ago. IIRC he's experimenting with new languages.
I just assume that every user I lose touch with got a job at the Big Five and we'll all be reunited in a scene akin to It's a Wonderful Life where everybody dumps a pile of stock options on me for supporting them during the hard times
 
4:20 PM
Hedging theory: government has to ease restrictions very slowly, if they don't and things get worse they'll get the blame. If they don't and things get better anyways, they'll be blamed for being overly restrictive and ruining the economy unnecessarily.
 
@Kevin as long as they aren't crude oil futures
 
If mere humans were running the show, I'd agree that those are the two blameworthy outcomes. But politicians are well-versed in the art of passing the buck, even when doing so causes material harm to their constituents
@AndrasDeak Good point. I'll take cash.
 
@Kevin how about bitcoin?
 
A bit volatile for my tastes, but if it's all you've got on hand, sure.
 
What was is that Mr. Rogers used to say? "Look for the HODLers."
 
4:25 PM
I just love how I got a job involving Cobol (technically I write Java from the Cobol/to interact with it.....which was my first programming job at 17 so cue Twilight Zone music) and get so many new devs who ask me to teach them & see a bunch of articles advising people to learn it
 
I want at least a little bit of untraceable currency so I can buy one of every exotic animal off the darkweb
 
Makes me go O.o
 
I hope the tigers get along with the sugar gliders
@LinkBerest-GoodbyeSE Why? Do you think Cobol is overhyped as a language with high demand and low supply? Or do you think working with it exclusively isn't worth the salary?
There are no wrong answers here
 
give or take
 
4:31 PM
I do worry that the occasional call for Cobol programmers in the media only happens during crises that expose the limitations of existing systems, and during peacetime demand drops back down to a level that wouldn't justify specializing in it
 
nah, COBOL devs have been legendarily appreciated by mammothistical corporations for decades
rumouristically speaking
 
maybe once New Jersey gets their unemployment system to scale properly, they won't need any COBOL work done until the zombie outbreak of 2042
 
My advice is to let the mercs merc. If you can enjoy COBOL, have fun.
 
@Kevin I think it is a "high demand if you know it now" but every company that me and the few old Cobol people I know have been contracted for are all "change Cobol to <insert other language>"
Which I tend to see as a detractor in a long-term, just starting developers career path
 
Speaking of merc, I'm available for projects... tell a friend.
 
4:35 PM
@AaronHall *flagging as spam*
 
So it sounds like the amount of Cobol in the world is decreasing... I expect there was a lot of it to start with, though, so it may be a while before it hits zero
 
lets another mod get it due to conflicts of interest
 
@Kevin same old, same old
 
@Kevin *hits retirement
 
4:36 PM
You just gotta run out the clock :-)
 
That's what's Stanley said.
 
Oddly, I do know one guy (he was my supervisor during that first job and retired about 10 years ago) who is working on the New Jersey system (which is not switching the Cobol out) and he hates the level of bandaid Cobol that exists (combined with bandaid shell scripts to format/fix data for them)
 
Cobol felt ancient when I learned it back in the early 80s. I haven't used it since then, and I don't think it'd be easy for me to read it, let alone write it, these days.
 
Analyzing message for bofa joke setup... None found. Ok, I'll bite. Who's Stanley?
 
It's a double allusion to The Office...
 
4:39 PM
Ah, I get it now.
I've only watched The Office via humorous gifs online, so I don't have strong recall of the character names.
 
Kevin's right on it there: Recursive Loop: Crisis => Pay big for Cobol programmers to band-aid system to "working" state & hire more programmers later to upgrade -> budget used up with Cobol programmers' salary & forgot to make priority
 
"we got through it the last time, we don't need to spend on porting the codebase that 'works'"
 
@AaronHall There's an old tabs vs spaces Python question which we recently closed, with lots of answers advocating tabs. It's now accumulated a few delvotes. But I'm now wondering if it's ok to delete it. The question & several of the answers have high scores, but I guess nobody will lose significant rep if it's deleted, since it's been inactive for well over 60 days.
 
"with lots of answers advocating tabs" not an attempt to prejudice me? :)
link please!
 
4:44 PM
only needs something like 4 more delvotes anyway
 
@PM2Ring mine was the late 90s and same feeling. I think I only remember it because it was the first language I actually used/learned professionally (there were no classes in this so I was actually taught by the programmers in the company).
 
the one objective answer (PEP 8) is downvoted below the "oh no spaces are hard" answer
there's no reason that should not be deleted
 
@LinkBerest-GoodbyeSE It's one of the few languages that I learned from actual classes, although I didn't manage to complete the course, due to health problems.
 
What's the official reason we hate tabs, again? If it's just "what if the reader's system renders tabs differently?", then I may be prepared to disregard that reasoning the same way I do for 80 character lines' "what if the reader has a really low resolution monitor?"
 
cause PEP8 says use spaces?
 
4:48 PM
Right, and should I conscientiously object to that, just as I'm doing for PEP8's 80 character line rule?
 
and if you print tabs in a unix shell you'll likely get 8 spaces
 
Most thinking people hate appeals to authority to justify decision making. That answer could be better.
 
Ironically I'm more likely to accept an appeal to authority if the reasoning given is somewhere between nothing and "we think it looks better this way"
 
Technically my answer to any and all style questions is: "what does the company style guide say?" but its easy to configure editors/IDEs to render tabs as spaces (which I do) so I basically ignore it in all languages anymore
 
@Kevin Tabs per se aren't that bad, but the rules governing combined tabs & spaces are pretty arcane. At least, they were in Python 2. I thought Python 3 simply forbids mixing them, but according to some stuff I've read that's not strictly true.
 
4:52 PM
@Kevin There is no reason. It's called spontaneous symmetry breaking. If you don't play along, bad people will come to your home and take away your Nobel prize.
 
If you go to great lengths to justify your dictate, that just gives me more space to find an axiom I disagree with, so I can reject the conclusion
 
Rather than delete the question because the voting isn't going well, why not improve the accepted answer? I would imagine just quoting the relevant parts would get it upvotes.
 
@AaronHall it's the epitome of an opinionated question
 
As I see it, the problem with tabs is that you don't have fine-grained indentation for such things as lining up function parameters. So you'd still have to use spaces for those kinds of things, and having to remember when to use tabs and when to use spaces is harder than simply always using spaces
 
I know I wasn't inspired to answer it.
 
4:53 PM
the 40 answers are a testament to the opinionatedness
 
Is anyone familiar with this project?
 
Axioms such as "people still working with 80x20 terminals are worth bending over backwards for". Sorry 80x20 bros, I love and respect you, but you can handle a few inconveniently long lines.
 
@MyWrathAcademia is it python-related?
 
Many people don't seem to understand the concept of tab stops, and seem to think that a tab equates to a fixed number of spaces, usually 8, or to whatever you happen to configure your system to use.
 
@Kevin short lines will also read nicely on a split tab, for what it's worth
 
4:55 PM
I'm not going to vote on deletion or undeletion, but I think quoting the relevant part isn't an abuse of power, so I'll add that to the answer and I'll let nature take its course organically.
 
"Mixing tabs and spaces is confusing" is true, but not hugely relevant in the alternate universe where the PEP says "always use tabs, never use spaces"
I guess they simply don't align function parameters in that universe
 
Is parameter aligning even PEP8'ish?
My black lord doesn't do it.
 
I vaguely recall seeing it...
The third code block of python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#when-to-use-trailing-commas has it under the "Correct:" heading, but I'd be happier if I could find approval for it in prose too
 
Isn't Black the new arbiter of style?
 
there are multiple multiline options
 
4:59 PM
# Hanging indents *may* be indented to other than 4 spaces.
foo = long_function_name(
  var_one, var_two,
  var_three, var_four)
 
yeah, that
 
Checks PEP 8 about indentation rules. Seems like I do hanging indents 'wrong'...
 
Independent verification 👈
Sometimes I do hanging indents at the same level as the block following it ;_;
 
@AndrasDeak the one I linked is C++ but here is that same project done in python: github.com/marksgraham/OCT-Converter
 
5:02 PM
@AndrasDeak any ideas?
 
nope
 
Sometimes I won't use indentation at all if I'm defining a list literal at the global scope
#technically naughty
a = [
b,
c,
d
]
 
booo
 
I'm integrating your boo into my bayesian measurement of how often I should do this... Updated.
Kevin must reboot to implement changes
 
I do tend to align parens though, which I know PEP 8 isn't crazy about
 
5:09 PM
I am familiar with the idea that using deep learning systems for classification and segmentation of optical coherence tomography features is complex and dependent on a ton of factors (non-standard imaging & inconsistent reporting metrics being the biggest in my book). None of this would help answer a random question in chat about a project that deals with one of its datasets though
 
I need help understanding a design decision. weakref.proxy objects aren't hashable; the justification in the docs is "Proxy objects are not hashable regardless of the referent; this avoids a number of problems related to their fundamentally mutable nature, and prevent their use as dictionary keys."
As far as I can tell, the only way to "mutate" a proxy object is to kill the object it's referencing. If that happens, of course the __hash__ function stops working, but so do all other functions. Why does __hash__ get special treatment here?
 
You can mutate the thing it's proxying
 
But if the thing it's proxying is mutable, then it won't be hashable anyway
 
Mutables can have __hash__ defined.
 
Sure, but how is that WeakProxy's problem? If the thing it's referencing behaves in a stupid way, then the proxy will also behave in a stupid way. I don't see the problem
 
5:18 PM
Then it's just a better safe than sorry. IMO a lot of Python's design is keep things to be as safe a possible, so when you do something unsafe you don't mess up because you forgot some minor detail
It's also probably not hard to add what you want if you need it.
 
I don't know, changing the behavior of the referenced object doesn't sound very safe to me
 
5:45 PM
Just noticed I got some replies to my question yesterday... why do I need to visit SO to see chat notifications, ugh
@MisterMiyagi Basically there are some items that give you a bonus just for buying them. So you can make use of that 1 gold if you buy and sell one item
 
@Aran-Fey you can also visit chat.SO main on desktop, or your chat profile
notifications are in the top right
 
@Peilonrayz Close, it's Hearthstone Battlegrounds
 
Ah, sounded like that one. I played it a couple times but I prefer DAC
 
@AndrasDeak Hmm, thanks, but I never visit those either. Notifications that I can't see right here in the room are pretty pointless
 
wim
@Peilonrayz I think Python's design is quite the opposite of that
even private variables is just a naming convention
there's public a python api directly in stdlib ctypes where you can reach into memory and segfault everything, should you wish
 
5:53 PM
hi all - can anybody help solve my problem posted in the comment of this answer? stackoverflow.com/questions/54367361/…
I don't want to ask a similar question in forum if it can be answered here
 
@wim I wouldn't class that as being safe or unsafe alone. Much like having a gun isn't inherently safe or unsafe.
You got me on privates tho
 
wim
having a gun is inherently unsafe
Python's philosophy is more like .. well I wouldn't go in there if I was you, but I guess you have a good reason? Take this gun and this flashlight.
 
I really should try Hearthstone, always wanted to after a friend told me it is to Pathfinder what Magic is to D&D
 
6:14 PM
hi
i need help in regular expression
 
Hello.
 
i just want to omit E:0 from "4 439251.4168 -.---- E:0 CAN:1,0 TX ID: CF0045B DLC:8 DATA:F0 00 00 00 00 00 F0 00"
i tried several ways but didnt find any way
 
@Lalitkumar what language are you using for this?
 
python
\b(?!E:0)\b\S+
this one is capturing ":0"
 
Today i installed ubuntu-desktop 20.04.
I cannot use python-shout module.
I found this: https://github.com/yomguy/python-shout/issues/5

How can i downgrade to python3.6?
Now i have 3.8.2.
Or how can i fix bad flags error?
 
6:18 PM
I am aware of how to achieve the same through replace
 
Apr 22 at 13:04, by Andras Deak
@d4rk4ng31 Please don't discuss fresh questions here. Go to a separate room.
your immediate problem is stackoverflow.com/questions/1132941/…
 
@AndrasDeak I'm sorry😅
 
wim
@d4rk4ng31 if you tag the question with you will get better visibility
or just post in chat, where Andras will trash your message but answer you anyway :D
 
you just want to hammer it, don't you? :P
 
wim
actually I have hammer too
 
6:32 PM
ah, nice
 
@wim Thanks :)
 
@MisterMiyagi Notes in Issue #1
 
wim
huh, more people have gold than . I thought it would be the other way around.
 
back in the day it was just python so noobs didn't feel like tagging with 2.x, I presume
 
wim
that makes sense
 
6:38 PM
But seriously, can anyone explain? I really cannot understand what's going on...
 
@d4rk4ng31 yeah, lot of people can. They'll post answers on your question. If that doesn't happen in 2 days, ask here.
you even have a confusing and completely fallacious comment
 
Got it.. Hope you aren't angry😅
 
it's hard to make me angry
 
wim
go and read the link Andras posted, like 154,000 other people did
and if it helps you, upvote it like 2593 other people did
 
You will possibly be kicked the next time you post a fresh question here. But I won't be angry then either.
 
6:43 PM
Sure. Thanks :)
@AndrasDeak This was my first time😥 Sorry it won't happen again
 
wim
@AndrasDeak because angry is your default state? :)
 
@d4rk4ng31 Well, the second, see my quote from April 22. But yeah, I wasn't too explicit then. Please see our rules for future reference
considering that I probably won't kick you the next time
@wim heh
 
@ChrisP how do you run your code? You can setup an alias or virtualenv (I'd recommend the later but there is a learning curve) or you can 1. wait for the maintainer to fix the issue 2. Find the bad flag call, fix it, and put in a pull request with the fix
I do not know more about that particular issue because I have never used 3.8 (I have it installed on a machine but all my clients are 3.3 to 3.7 so I use those)
 
@Aran-Fey I'm guessing because __hash__ stopping to work is Really Badâ„¢. It means you have a dead dict/set entry that cannot be removed easily. All the others are more incidental and will lead to failure-on-use, not silently corrupt Python's #1 data type.
In general, special methods aren't created equal, though. __hash__ has the special rule for __hash__ = None, whereas __bool__ cannot be disabled at all, for example.
 
@ChrisP You can install it alongside Python 3.8. Just use python36 rather than python. Check you installed it right with python36 -V
 
6:49 PM
@MisterMiyagi that last bit sounds like a challenge to me
 
@PaulMcG Nice, thanks a lot!
 
though I guess what you really mean is that "non boolable" is not a thing. __bool__ can happily raise regardless
 
ahh...@Peilonrayz found the answer I was looking for (through an SO answer) :P ;)
 
Yeah, you need to explicitly raise TypeError().
I have a pile of tickets with the LGTM guys for such corner cases ^^
 
why would people send tickets for something that "looks good to them"?
 
6:52 PM
you need tickets to watch an art show you like
 
oh! textbook proposal was accepted, nice :)
 
@LinkBerest-GoodbyeSE so that other's can take a look too :P
 
user6568562
7:06 PM
Cbg
 
wim
7:18 PM
Made a new sede query TOP 200 HAMMER JUGGLERS
 
@vault To (smci (previous)). Anyway, look forward to you posting it on SO, and to make it on-topic for SO, you could ask "What's the minimal big-O complexity for the optimal solution?" (People previously said it's a multiple knapsack problem, thus exponential complexity). Alternatively, you could try Monte-Carlo approximation approaches with better bounds on time-complexity.
 
wim
semi-surprised to see Martijn at #2 - look at all that hardware!
 
7:30 PM
@Kevin Not sure why you mention pandas tag for low-quality upvotes (there are many worse tags), but both pandas and sklearn and other tags are to some extent flooded with cargo-cult ML newbies block-posting tutorial code they don't understand. Still, some of them learn and go on to become good users.
 
7:40 PM
@MisterMiyagi Huh, I didn't realize disabling a method by setting it to None wasn't universal
 
7:51 PM
@MisterMiyagi Perhaps I'm telling you something you already know but the schema is here to give you some idea of what's available
 
@roganjosh That's new to me indeed. TY
 
8:08 PM
and Kevin, this is good material for an answer to wim's post "It's time to reward the duplicate finders". But we have to be super-careful about balancing new incentives to not incentivize antisocial behavior, users gaming them etc. It would be bad to set a lifetime rep limit on rep earned from identifiying dupes, since then new users will have more immediate incentive than experienced users....
...But we'd also have to be careful about safeguarding the case where a user identifies one of their own Q/A as the dupe target; we shouldn't forbid it, because it could be legit, but we have to beware the obvious dangers (the opposite of why CW died out).
 
wim
not necessarily bad. the idea is just for newer users to get used to doing it and get in their head that it's a worthwhile thing for the site.
effectively there already is a lifetime rep limit on it, and that limit is zero :)
 
@wim Sure, sure, so a bronze badge for "Made one (legit, non-reversed) close-as-dupe, on a question not written by you, into a Q&A written by someone other than you" seems an excellent idea.
@wim Don't I know it...
 
wim
@smci what the heck is going on with delete votes on the answers of that post
 
Also there isn't really a close/fix/reopen queue on dupe closings, but it might become necessary. Often people pick a bad, irrelevant or suboptimal target. And sometimes, a question can be a dupe of 2+ separate questions; there isn't really a clear site mechanism for encoding that. Or, a question can have a twist, or be data-related, so it's related but not straight dupe.
 
wim
random users should not be deleting unpopular answers on meta!
 
8:15 PM
@wim Eh? WTF ddelvoted that? For real?
 
wim
if all the answers who wrote NO get delvoted then people can't see that the popular opinion disagrees with them, and others who can't even see the deleted post might think they need to post another NO answer
 
@wim When I began on SO, I believed the propaganda that Meta was some benign grey-beard forum of unbounded, objective, language-agnostic wisdom, unmotivated by biases, egos or personal dislikes... but I learned otherwise.
@wim "They come not to praise Meta, but to delvote it..."
 
we don't usually do that on meta
 
@AndrasDeak I didn't, if you're insinuating I'm the person who did.
 
I wasn't
 
8:19 PM
@AndrasDeak Well then it's unclear who your comment was addressed to, and to a casual reader it would appear to be directed at me, which would be misleading.
 
wim
I just undelvote on them all (except the ones that were deleted by original author)
 
general grump into the empty vacuum of space
 
wim
'nother query Most commonly awarded gold tag badges ( is #3, sitting uncomfortably between and )
I wonder if I can turn that tag name into a tag link ... who's good with sql server or sede?
 
@wim Even better if you can normalize that by the number of (say) active users in that tag who've written at least n Q&A in that tag, and/or have >= threshold rep. Then we get an approximation for "How often is (successful) close behavior in tag x community?"
 
wim
mmmhh that sounds way too hard
 
8:23 PM
@wim what do you mean by "tag link" here?
As in, just hyperlink to the tag or am I horribly misreading?
 
wim
like instead of plaintext python I want python or maybe python
there is probably some way to do string formatting in sede but I don't know the syntax
 
Yeah, way beyond me sorry
 
@wim and rj: . Spelled [tag:python]
 
I don't know what that looks like in the SEDE query since the tag name is an actual result of the query?
 
...oh doh sorry, wim wanted the actual tag link in the SEDE query.
 
8:30 PM
:)
 
wim
obviously I know how to do the chat tag because I just did 3 of them a moment ago..
 
Alright, I'm only on my second coffee of the day...
 
wim
mmm coffee, good idea
 
yup...but it's half past 10 here :(
 
wim
good bean juice taste like chocolate make brain go fast
 
8:34 PM
Hey there was some blogger who got frontpage on news.ycombinator.com within the last 4 days with what seemed like a total hit-piece saying "Why is Python slow?" showing profiling of a tiny three-line snippet with two nested loops and some str call. I can't find it now though. I thought it was grossly distorting if they were claiming that was representative of Python runtime. (Anyone got the link? I meant to post it here). (Oh and their own profiling showed it was not an issue with pypy)
 
I do find SEDE curious though. I wonder how they sandboxed it so that you can't just batter the server with mega queries and lock it up
 
wim
yeah it's a nice bit of engineering there. the tutorial is excellent too (written by the estranged Monica)
there are some safeguards because too huge queries do get errored or timeout
 
What are good anagrams of 'REINSTATE AND APOLOGIZE TO MONICA'?
'adversarial query ML'...
 
@smci you mean this one?
 
wim
8:52 PM
those kind of benchmarks are so dumb. measure something that actually matters, like the time it takes the developer to get the task done.
 
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