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wim
12:26 AM
GitHub offering unlimited free private repos. And Travis CI acquired. Pretty exciting January for open source
 
 
3 hours later…
3:21 AM
@wim My first thought (echoed when I googled to see if there were any caveats) was to question if that's really a good thing? For open source in general, for the 'community'...a lot of code that might otherwise be private is at present public because of Github's charging for it to not be so.
 
 
2 hours later…
wim
4:54 AM
@toonarmycaptain No, I doubt it. People who want free private repos already had bitbucket for that.
 
5:49 AM
cbg
 
6:38 AM
Will I be too impolite if I comment 'READ the basic tutorial of Python first.' in the following question: stackoverflow.com/questions/54340461/… _( :з」∠)_
 
Hello All
whats you thoughts on app development with python ? recommended ?
 
6:56 AM
BeeWare may be
 
@MatrixTai hi
 
Hi, @PApaT, I think this stackoverflow.com/questions/49955489/… is what you looking for.
 
7:12 AM
@MatrixTai thanks, are you app developer?
 
@MatrixTai yes. Tone matters a lot.
What you posted is fine. But w3schools is horrible. Point people to the official tutorial, or to no tutorial at all.
 
7:45 AM
i would recommend going for app development specific languages if you're looking for experience/stability @PApaT Java or swift for android/ios
 
8:05 AM
@ParitoshSingh hi, thanks for your honest answer. Have you done any app development?
 
Did an internship for one, but i don't work on app development personally right now.
Worked on android dev at the time.
 
I wouldn't mind doing Android stuff, mostly for personal use. But only if I can do it in Python, since I have no desire to learn Java. I had a brief look at the BeeWare docs about a year ago, and it looked intriguing, but I'd hate to invest the time & energy into learning BeeWare stuff if it's not rock-solid, or if it's slow. For simple stuff, I can just write JavaScript & run it in a browser.
 
wim
8:37 AM
@AndrasDeak the official tutorial is pretty awful too..
 
8:56 AM
Better than w3schools
 
 
2 hours later…
10:36 AM
@wim github would be ok only when they allow the same deploy key be used for several repositories
 
11:22 AM
@wim I think it's ok for the intended audience: people who are competent coders, coming from a C-like language. But there's certainly room for improvement, and more examples
But I certainly don't think it's suitable for raw beginners with no prior programming experience.
 
@wim it is a Python language tutorial, not a programming text book.
for a text book, one needs to point to a library instead.
 
Hi, i am reading a file with polar coordinates and converting it to (Long, Lat). I want to loop over (range, azimuth) and save to csv only if a certain variable is above a certain limit. Can anyone guide me?
 
what is the problem?
if you've written some code then there will be a particular problem. If you've not written any code yet then you need to start.
so (range, azimuth) means you want to sort by it or?
 
11:52 AM
i do have the code
when looping over range, azimuth i am getting this error
--> 152 for i in range(range_data): #take the first range
153 for j in range(azimuth_data): #iterate over all 360 azimuth

TypeError: only integer scalar arrays can be converted to a scalar index
 
You are iterating using "range" on "range_data" instead of directly iterating on the elements of whatever data you have. 1, are you sure you want to do that? Most problems generally get resolved by iterating directly through a list. if yes, then 2, the error message indicates your value/values are not ints. check what "range_data" has. @user2153702
 
range is saved as range_data (range is a python name and can't be used). range_data has values (0.0, 999.0, 1998.0, etc)
 
then why are you calling a range on it?
 
I want to loop over range_data and azimuth_data. How can i do it?
 
12:07 PM
for i in range_data: #(this makes i contain the actual values).
for index,i in enumerate(range_data): #this makes index contain indexes and i contain actual values)
use whichever version you need
 
the 2nd one (range_data) and (azimuth_data) worked. Thanks
now I have another error though
 
yes, because you havent yet really read through the comments i have written here
 
once I do the 2nd loop, I want to only consider a certain value
 
try and figure out how to express what you need in code first. (ps. only consider a certain value is essentially an if statement). You may actually want to spend some time going through some tutorials and getting comfortable with the language syntax
 
12:35 PM
@davidism: yes, I think asking people new to Flask to start with packaging too is premature.
Publishing to Heroku or just checking out a repository on a server is pretty common. Packaging adds overhead without clear benefits (you can make your source read-only in other ways too).
@AnttiHaapala: so packaging might make deployment to a WSGI server that doesn't share the working directory a little easier. Does adding a path to PYTHONPATH cost more than teaching about packaging?
I know packaging has its advantages but it is further along in the lifecycle of a project, not at the very start.
 
1:00 PM
I live in Pyramid land, the packaging comes after "my app has more than one file" :D
while at it, people should learn to use pkg_resources
or the new one that is
instead of __file__ garbage
this: flask.pocoo.org/docs/1.0/patterns/distribute again, zip_safe=False :(
(same is still unfortunately everywhere in pyramid land)
 
1:19 PM
I want to select N columns per unique value in certain column of a pandas dataframe. I am currently thinking of something like this bpaste.net/show/e19c144de0c7, but I feel there must be a better way. Any clues?
 
@AnttiHaapala I'm trying to get rid of zip_safe=False
I think the biggest impediment is the Jinja env
But like, it's everywhere. The other Pallets projects have it set, even though there's nothing stopping them from being imported from a zip.
@MartijnPieters thanks. I think my original reason was that way too many people were doing sys.path.insert or plopping a bunch of modules without a package, and then running into weird import errors.
Also flask run originally wasn't as good, now it can understand packages without them being installed.
But I should probably move the install page back to the patterns section rather than the tutorial. Maybe same with the test / coverage section.
 
1:35 PM
@davidism Pyramid uses the package.module:file/name.html for all sorts of assets
unfortunately not all of that is zip_safe
because every templating engine glue implements it differently
 
Yeah, it comes down to informing users how to set up their template loader, or coming up with a loader that works in both scenarios.
The problem is if we go down the "works in every scenario" case, I guarantee some PyInstaller-like tool will break it in a different way than zipimport.
 
yea :/
the startup times are getting now more important with aws lambda & al, the seconds actually count.
just tried one project, it executes 28k stat system calls and 2866 opens
for startup
 
1:52 PM
Hmm, is there an efficient solution for f(n) = b**0 + b**1 + b**2 ... + b**n?
 
numpy :P
as in loopless
 
Yeah. Ideally something closed-form with a number of terms that doesn't scale proportionally to n
I'm trying to find a symbolic solution to a problem that I encountered yesterday:
> This is a one-player game. The goal of the game is to have N points.
You start with zero points.
You take a turn by rolling a six-sided die.
On a 1, you gain 1 point.
On a 6, you lose all points.
On a 2, 3, 4, or 5, nothing happens.

On average, how many turns will it take you to reach N points?
 
oh, yeah, that's a geometric series
 
def f(n):
    return (2 ** np.arange(n)).sum()
 
sum_{k=0}^n b^k = (1-b^n)/(1-b) give or take some off-by-ones
it might be 1-b^(n+1) in the numerator or something
 
1:56 PM
ok, now thinking of efficient
 
I only know the limit of the infinite geometric series by heart. sum_{k=0}^inf b^k = 1/(1-b) (assuming |b|<1), so then sum_{k=0}^n b^k = sum_{k=0}^inf b^k - b^(n+1) * sum_{k=0}^inf b^k = 1/(1-b) - b^(n+1)/(1-b) = (1 - b^(n+1))/(1-b).
 
def g(n, b):
    return (1 - b ** n) / (1 - b)
 
uh, I don't think that's it
 
edited
 
still :P
 
2:14 PM
Simulating the problem, I got an answer that looks like 6*((2^N)-1) and now I'm trying to solve it via a system of equations
My semi-comprehensible notes so far: pastebin.com/zZtPYXKR
 
f(0,4) == 90 fits with 6*((2^N)-1) so I suppose I'm on the right track
(1 - b**n) / (1-b) is giving me good-looking data, modulo some fencepost issues thanks to my criminally under-specified requirements
 
2:38 PM
Now I've got 12 * (2**N - 1) after doing a lot of math which I skipped writing down. Since it's only wrong by a factor of two, I think I've got a functional approach, stymied only by my atrocious algebra skills
 
quick question about TDD: when you guys are writing your functional/unit tests, do you think of everything that could possibly go wrong and try to test for that, then write code implementing your functionality?
or do you just do the most straight-forward testing first
so, for example, if i'm testing an "edit profile" page, i can think of a buuunch of different scenarios (user's not logged in, user logged in, sent wrong type of request, etc.)
should i not worry about these scenarios (yet) and write the straightforward test + code first?
 
As someone who has never done TDD but thinks it's a neat idea, I would also like to know the answer to this.
In principle "everything that could possibly go wrong" should be a category with a finite number of elements, so it should be possible to compose a big list of possible disasters, and write a test for each one of them.
 
My answer to that (I sometimes do TDD), is "whatever floats your boat". Ideally, your steps / tests should be incremental & not too extensive in the first go, else you'll be left with many tests & little code trying to get things by the deadline.
Perhaps try the basic tests first, then write functionality, test, if they pass, add extensive tests, repeat.
I'm no authority, but that's the approach I usually like for real-world (time limited) projects
 
In design-first-test-later development, it is said that the ideal is to test every code path. If accessing the page without logging in first causes code to execute that isn't executed in any other scenario, then it should be tested. Perhaps this ideal is also true for TDD.
 
@AmagicalFishy Ideally (given TDD), you'd write tests for and then add basic functionality for "edit page". Next step would be to add the "wrong type of request" tests, but if the view is dependent on user login, then the user logged in or not scenarios must be included in the very first tests.
 
2:53 PM
How you test all code paths when you have not written any code yet, seems a bit chicken-and-egg. But I guess if you have a clear mental picture of the design before you start writing tests or code, then you can make an educated guess
 
Keeping it minimal is key when adding functionality. Don't write code for which you don't have a test for. IMO that's what TDD says. So, keep the tests & code incremental, even for a single view (if complex).
 
ahh, cool. this makes more sense. the idea of first trying to write a test for every scenario i could think of before coding seemed a bit daunting :D
tyvm
 
@Kevin Instructions unclear, started with too many chickens & now I have too many of their eggs :-p
 
but dang it the eggs came first!
 
Take the excess eggs and put them all in one basket. I understand that this is an expedient disposal method.
 
2:59 PM
cracked eggs usually do make some delicious omlets :D
 
3:11 PM
@Kevin f(n) = b**0 + b**1 + b**2 ... + b**n? as in the number 1111111111_base(b)?
iff b > 1 then at least (b ^ (n + 1)) / (b - 1)
 
morning cbg
 
with given c = b - 1, the largest number less than b^(n + 1) is ccccc...ccccc_base(b), which divided by c gives 11111...11111_base(b)
< -1, take the sign out
 
\o cbg
 
OK. I got it this time.
-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY------ https://twitter.com/ladygaga/status/266036172122365952
.....
oh. The bigger twitter link is the inner tweet, and the date stamp is the actual tweet link I wanted to share? That is soooooo broken.
 
"iff b > 1" is a sticking point for me sadly since in practice my b is 1/2
 
3:34 PM
@Kevin does it hold then?
probably not, because divisor would be negative
 
Inspecting elements of the series, I'm getting negative numbers, which doesn't match what I think should be happening, alas
Ok, I wrote down all* the math this time and I got the answer I wanted: pastebin.com/NXFnyvHg
(*except for the math that Andras gave me)
"It appears that f(n-q, n) = A[q] + B[q] * f(0,n)" is a bit hand wavey, but I'm not inclined to do an exhaustive proof because that would be exhausting
Hmm, sum for k from [1,i] of (1/2)**k doesn't quite work for i=0, does it.
That may just be a typo.
No, it gives me the numbers I want. I guess it's logically sound as long as the sum of an empty interval is defined to be zero.
 
4:03 PM
Hard mode: now find the formula for the expected length of the game, except you gain a point with probability P, and lose all points with probability Q
I guess you'd change the cur != n case to P* (1 + f(cur+1,n)) + Q*(1+f(0,n)) + (1 - P - Q)*(1+f(cur,n)) and work from there. The steps are conceptually similar, just uglier.
 
4:48 PM
Variant problem: same setup as the base problem, but rolling a six only causes you to lose a single point, unless doing so would give you a negative score.
 
I don't understand numpy argmax function
 
@piRSquared b^n should be included
@erotavlas the index for which the value is maximal
 
yeah, that makes sense
 
Simulating the variant problem, it looks like it takes 6*triangle_number[n] rolls. Can't be bothered to solve symbolically for this one.
 
@piRSquared i.e. you need to subtract b^(n+1) S
 
4:59 PM
Oops, I attributed piRSquared's formula to Andras in my pastebin. The editors regret this error.
 
If it's wrong then he can take the credit
 
haha
cbg
 
lol... just like home
 
It's right if I nudge the requirements to the left by a foot
 
What's a one-off error between friends
 
5:01 PM
@AndrasDeak what about this example on the numpy site
>>> a = np.arange(6).reshape(2,3)
>>> a
array([[0, 1, 2],
       [3, 4, 5]])
>>> np.argmax(a, axis=0)
array([1, 1, 1])
 
As long as the number of off-by-one errors in my code is even, then it will produce the correct output
 
@erotavlas it works "row by row" along the given axis
In this case column by column
 
so axis 0 is the first col?
 
axis 0 is the first dimension
 
That ^
 
the axis and dimensions give me a headache. numpy has a nice way to describe it that makes it easier to manage though
the axis argument for functions is the dimension that will be "collapsed"
 
still thinking about this... and I still don't get it
 
thats the key difference which makes it inconsistant with other libraries using axis
but just remember it for numpy, axis refers to the dimension that will be lost after the operation.
 
what is the first dimension of the 2x3 array visually
 
@erotavlas try max on [[0,4,2],[1,3,5]] with both axis 0 and 1, then see argmax
 
5:07 PM
I feel like there's a story behind the warning at picamera.readthedocs.io/en/release-1.13/…, and the title of the story is "Dave Jones and the neverending stream of troubleshooting emails from beginners"
 
@erotavlas the 2
 
and the 2 goes poof.
 
oooooh
so for a 3x2x5 array the axis 0 = 3 axis 1 = 2 and axis 2 = 5?
 
Yup
 
5:09 PM
and you end up with 2x5, 3x5, 3x2, respectively
 
ok then whats axis = -1?
 
@erotavlas last one
 
huh. that should not be present in isolation
oh. o.o til
 
Just like list indices
 
ok
 
5:10 PM
you can often add a tuple of axes
 
that's missing from their doc
 
does it go all the way? as in, i can use -2, -3 and so on?
 
@erotavlas it's ubiquitous in numpy
@ParitoshSingh of course
@piRSquared does it?
I'm skeptical, but on mobile, can't check
 
/back_pedal (-;
 
so back to that example again why was the answer array([1, 1, 1])
 
5:12 PM
haha
 
checking why I thought that
 
5 mins ago, by Andras Deak
@erotavlas try max on [[0,4,2],[1,3,5]] with both axis 0 and 1, then see argmax
@piRSquared I can trash the fallacy later
 
two possibilities. 1) I'm thinking of a prior version where default value for axis was -1 and it worked as I described. 2) I'm silly.
 
No offense but probably not 1 :P
Unless ancient version
 
I'm trying to save face here...
You and your logic are getting in my way
 
5:14 PM
a = [[0,4,2],[1,3,5]]
np.argmax(a, axis=0)
array([1, 0, 1], dtype=int64)
np.argmax(a,axis=1)
array([1, 2], dtype=int64)
 
yeah, i think i heard of an accidental numpy patch bug that affected a few systems for a while, that had the sum -1 work wrongly for very specific users.
 
.reshape(-1).sum() has -1 in it...
@erotavlas first max, yam it
See if you understand what max does. Then see argmax.
 
(psst hope that helps piRsquared)
 
thx ParitoshSingh (-: I think they'll fall for it
 
5:19 PM
i still don't get it :(
 
use a 2,4 array perhaps
 
@erotavlas axis=0: find max for each column. Axis=1: max in each row
 
what are those values in the result?
yeah they don't match with any vale in the row or column
 
@erotavlas see my very first response
 
what? post em here
 
5:21 PM
lol ok the index !!!!!
 
I'm tuning out, you're consistently wasting our time here, @erotavlas
 
i was expecting the value
 
thats max, not argmax
 
sorry, you know this would be a lot easier if they just documented this
 
You're wasting our time by asking then ignoring what we're saying.
 
5:23 PM
thanks for the help
 
No problem. We gladly help if you make an effort to learn.
Hence my multiple requests for you to read a tutorial (unrelated to this event)
The less I see the effort the more strict I'll be in order to protect those sacrificing their time
 
you know what screwed me up, was their example
because the result of the first argmax is 5 which is also the highest value in the array
 
Irrelevant
 
its true I just made an assumption without reading more closely about what it was returning
 
Never too late to learn :)
 
5:31 PM
Questioning assumptions is an essential skill to critical thinking... Or is it???
13
 
I see what you did there, or...
Questioning assumptions is one of the most critical things about programming though for sure. More often that not, when we are trying to debug our code for example, ive seen a lot of people just refuse to believe that they made a mistake in some portion.
And then they tell me "this should work. why isnt this working?"
 
@erotavlas So when you see an example, don't just read it. Copy it to your IDE or editor & run it, then modify the values and run it again & see what changes. Keep playing with it until it sinks in. That way you're much more likely to understand what's going on, and more likely to remember it.
 
ok
its a good suggestion
 
{Intern} showed me a sql query in our project that seemed unusually inefficient, and we couldn't figure out why it was written that way until we questioned the assumption that the original author was a fool and a charlatan. It turns out, I wrote it, and I had a very good reason, the specifics of which will not fit within this margin.
 
That's the way I learn stuff. I've been coding for almost 50 years, but whenever I learn new material I still try to play around with it, because it's so easy to misunderstand stuff if you just read it & don't test it.
 
5:45 PM
thats like talking about candy and then refusing to share. :P
 
Can I have some?
 
sorry, i dont want to share.
 
@Kevin f = lambda n: (1 - (b ** n)) / (1 - b)
@Kevin actually works for b != 1
 
Compared to other creative trades, playful experimentation in programming is virtually free. So you should be doing a lot of it.
 
OTOH, just experimenting with stuff can be helpful, but random experimentation without guidance from the docs or a tutorial can lead to faulty assumptions too.
 
5:47 PM
@Kevin it is the finite geometric series sum, it just doesn't converge if b > 1 but still works.
>>> b = 10; print(f(0), f(1), f(2), f(3))
-0.0 1.0 11.0 111.0
 
@AnttiHaapala Excellent. Convergence is not strictly necessary, since I will only ever have a finite number of terms, so this will do nicely.
 
Yep. The finite geometric series formula always works, unless the ratio is 1. It even works for complex numbers. And a good thing too, otherwise power series would be pretty useless. ;)
 
>>> b = 0.5; print(f(0), f(1), f(2), f(3))
0.0 1.0 1.5 1.75
 
@PM2Ring So true. I've only really understood how git branching worked when I tried it out on a dummy repo and I was watching my work literally disappearing before my eyes, and reappearing to the sound of the git checkout.
 
FWIW, the way I check for off by 1 errors when using the finite version is with 1 + 10 + 100 = (1000-1)/(10-1)
 
5:53 PM
f = lambda n: ((b ** (n + 1)) - 1) / (b - 1)
works only for > 1 but it works.
(give or take that +1
 
When you don't nail down your preconditions, that's how you prove that the sum of all positive integers is -1/12
 
For extra credit, find a formula for arithmetic-geometric series, i.e., a + (a+d)*r + (a+2d)*r^2 + (a + 3d)*r^3 + ...
 
sum of all positive integers is -1/12. theres just something ridiculously amusing about that.
 
@ParitoshSingh *infuriating
 
jpp
6:04 PM
Carnage today in "User was removed" for pandas answerers. I think several of us dropping 100-300 !
 
The Universe evidently has a sense of humor.
We're looking for blueprints from God in the digits of pi, but really there's just aggravating puns in ℕ
 
@jpp check to see if anyone got suspended :P
 
jpp
@AndrasDeak, Not sure how I can check that, but yeh that could be it. only explanation I can see for 100+ votes disappearing.
 
Well either an elaborate sock got nuked or a regular user quit.
You can't really check that beyond looking at each high-profile account
 
jpp
yeh, cant be bothered, more important things in life!
 
6:09 PM
For some more fun series, see mrob.com/pub/seq/digits.html I quite like the Fibonacci series, like 1/89 & 1/9899.
 
What in tarnation
 
@jpp I got -10 and -30. Therefore I'd guess it is related to recent votes as I was not impacted very much and I haven't been active recently.
 
Ah, it's doing magic on repeating decimals. I'm familiar with those.
 
6:24 PM
Several hours ago I had to post some stern comments on a terrible answer in Astronomy after that question was used as a dupe target to close a new question that has a great answer. Fortunately, a mod has re-opened it.
One of the silliest questions I've ever seen on Physics.SE: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/456207/…
 
And what a disturbing profile picture. Are depictions of self-harm reportable?
 
Seems easy enough to solve. time required to chew & swallow a bite of something * volume of star / volume of human mouth.
Rather large error range since you can't objectively measure the volume of... Whatever state of matter stars tend to be. Plasma?
They Might Be Giants gives conflicting information about this
 
@PM2Ring Obvious troll is obvious.
 
@vaultah Oh, I didn't notice that, since it's hard to see on the phone. But now that I've zoomed in on the full-size version on the profile page, I see what you mean. Yes, I think that's report-worthy, but I can't remember how to do that. I guess a custom flag on any of their posts.
 
What bothers me most is that it was tagged
 
6:37 PM
"How long would it take to eat the sun?" would be right at home on XKCD's What If, but our site does not specialize in questions of that kind
 
I'd bet Randall would dismiss that question and not waste his time.
 
How many cheezy puffs could a beetle fart if Pluto was spelled "BlurbyBlurb"
About as much sense as that ^
The fire hose question can be abstracted to make some sense.
 
@Kevin Yep, plasma, but it gets pretty dense down in the core, like 130 times the density of water for our Sun, IIRC. And of course that will expand back to normal gaseous density once you remove the pressure. I guess it's easiest to just work with the star's mass, and average over the different elements in the star.
Even though it's mostly hydrogen & helium, there's still a heap of other elements. Eg the Sun has more than a 1000 Earth masses worth of iron that it inherited from the cloud that provided the ingredients of the solar system.
 
6:45 PM
@Kevin Indeed, but XKCD What-If links often appear in Physics.SE comments.
 
would it be at the core of the sun then?
 
My wild guess is that the iron in the sun is not particularly concentrated at its core.
 
I'm guessing the densest material is at the core
what is the plasmal(?) density of the elements in the sun?
 
@ParitoshSingh It's spread through the whole Sun, due to convective mixing, and you can see evidence for every element in the Sun's spectrum. I think there's a higher concentration of heavier stuff in the core, but I'd have to check what the real astrophysicists say about that. Obviously, it's not possible to observe directly, but we can get indirect evidence from how heavy elements interfere with the fusion reactions.
 
Interesting. i thought for some reason that stars would not have heavy metals because afaik they only form on supernovas...but then i derped and didnt consider that further stars would be formed from the remains of a supernova explosion
 
6:53 PM
Certainly I'd expect gravity to draw heavier elements closer towards the core, but since gravity's not the only force at play I'm unwilling to make a generalization
 
I just checked with Wikipedia, & it says the solar core density is 150 g/cm^3
 
Non-supernovas can form iron, but the sun isn't in the right stage for that I think
and/or it's the wrong size
 
I wonder if a general relativity adjustment needs to be made for the density calculation. Meaning, do we inaccurately calculate density of stuff when it is in gravitationally warped space? I've never thought through this so I might be mixing stuff up.
 
@ParitoshSingh The stuff that forms stellar systems is mostly hydrogen & helium (3 parts H to 1 part He, by mass); the other stuff is around 1 to 2%.
But that other stuff is quite important, so the very earliest stars that didn't have those extra ingredients were quite different. They were much larger & hence died rather quickly. We think. There are none of them left in the modern universe, and although we look back in time when we look deep into space it's not easy to see individual stars many billions of light-years away, until they go supernova.
 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution#/media/… shows a star with an iron core about to collapse and then form a supernova. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution says this happens for stars ten times more massive than the sun. Unclear whether stars less heavy than that are also capable of having iron cores, and they just don't explode
 
7:05 PM
Ah i see i see, pretty cool.
 
@Kevin If a star is big enough to get to the stage that it produces iron then it will collapse. See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova#Core_collapse In fact, that whole page is excellent, despite a few internal inconsistencies.
 
I came to a similar conclusion, having just skimmed across half a dozen articles that mention iron in a stellar context, and which invariably go on to mention how stars with that kind of composition explode pretty much immediately afterwards
Points to Iron Star for being about something that won't exist for 10^1500 years, and also using the phrase "forest of forbidden FeII lines"
 
iron and fusion dont behave well together.
 
You must never go into the Forbidden Forest of Fe
So "non-supernovas can form iron" should be interpreted to mean "a star that hasn't yet become a supernova, but definitely will very soon, can form iron"
 
One of the most important elements for star formation is carbon. When a gas cloud starts collapsing, it heats up, which tends to counteract the collapse. But if the cloud contains a little carbon it can radiate infrared in frequencies that hydrogen & helium are transparent to, so some of the heat can escape.
@Kevin Yep. Actually, it forms radioactive nickel-56, but that quickly decays to regular iron-56, via cobalt, generating lots of heat & neutrinos in the process.
 
7:21 PM
Crazy how nature do that
 
Carbon's also important in the life of stars too. As well as the usual p-p chain that turns hydrogen into helium, there's the CNO cycle that primarily operates in stars hotter than our Sun. It's a kind of catalytic process that turns carbon into nitrogen, which then goes to oxygen, which then breaks down to helium & carbon, so the cycle can repeat. It's kinda cute that the 4 most important elements of organic life, CHON, are also important in the stellar "life" cycle.
Carbon is initially produced by a thing called the triple alpha process, where 3 heliums (alpha particles) fuse to carbon. But almost all of the CNO in our bodies comes from that CNO cycle.
 
7:42 PM
From an anthropic viewpoint, it makes sense that self-replicating processes would tend to be made out of whichever materials are the most abundant.
N being a little more of a curveball than C H & O, given their respective positions on the list
Poor He, too noble to play with his friends
 
True, but it's rather handy that CNO have very useful chemical properties as well as useful nuclear properties.
 
Reminds me of an article I read that asked "how come smaller numbers tend to have a greater number of cool properties than larger ones? Why does 2 get to be the first even number and the first prime and the minimum number of points required to determine a line? Save some for the rest of us"
 
@Kevin it took a while for life on Earth to discover the CHONK cycle
 
Meanwhile 1729 is grateful to get one neat anecdote.
 
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