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12:00 PM
like, who started the 2nd world war
 
@Ffisegydd No two situations are ever identical. West Germany did get off remarkably lightly after WWII though, which is the reason they're holding the purse strings today.
 
@GamesBrainiac You can't win: Jon complained a week or 2 ago when I called him a kid. :) (But I suspect he's younger than me).
 
@PM2Ring Ehem. John is a pretty mature guy, if ya know what I mean.
 
@ZeroPiraeus they may have attempted to take over Europe, but at least they didn't rack up huge national debt in a financial boom :)
@ZeroPiraeus why do you say that that's the reason they hold the purse strings?
Possibly not being allowed to have an army saved them a bundle :)
 
@RobertGrant But they did have pre-war hyperinflation
 
12:05 PM
For the reasons outlined in that article: half their debt was forgiven outright, and repayments on the other half were contingent on a trade surplus, which created a very strong incentive for their creditor nations to import from them over the following decades, giving their exports an advantage no other country in Europe had.
 
yeah, no incentive with greece :D:D basically greece is given 2 choices: pay us everything or cry and pay
 
Yeah the latter thing is quite strong, sorry I forgot it instantly :)
 
Germany is also instructive re: what can happen when a country's debts are so onerous that they have no realistic way out - that's what we did after WWI, and the results were not exactly pretty.
 
remember always my primary school history teacher giving an example of a history teacher getting paid with wheelbarrowful of notes, then get it home and dump it next to the toilet...
 
12:09 PM
@ZeroPiraeus Indeed. But I guess Greece is betting that nobody's going to start WW3 over their actions...
 
the problem with greece is that no one can believe they could invade another country :d
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/28149535/… Interesting question, but too broad?
 
I would like to know if there is an existing package to do something like this, or some advice on how to write this from scratch.
too broad generally...
or use the google
damnit I seriously think we need a site for interesting questions like these :D
 
@AnttiHaapala Agreed
 
@PM2Ring it also asks for existing packages.
@AnttiHaapala Programmers has interesting questions like that.
 
12:12 PM
offsite resources
 
in between the off-topic crap.
 
yeah, all in all it is the "offsite resources"
 
@AnttiHaapala ah, Software Recommendations, if it survives.
 
BTW thanks for posting this link: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1108419/… ; there's some great stuff there. And it gave me an opportunity to post this link:
 
@PM2Ring so how old are you then?
 
12:18 PM
@AnttiHaapala Take a guess!
 
at least old enough to want to animate some proof in 80s
in the beginning of 90s I had trouble understanding how can one "calculate with letters" :D
 
:) I'm 55.
 
I think that more or less qualifies you to call about everyone else a kid in this room
 
I learned a little bit of BASIC when I was 11, but had no machine access at that stage. A couple of years later I did get hands-on access to a computer: a local museum had been given an IBM 360/20 mainframe, which they made accessible to school kids. So my early programming experience was on a machine with 64k core storage (with real magnetic cores), with programs coded onto punch cards. My first language on that machine was PL/I, but I soon graduated to assembler.
 
12:27 PM
@PM2Ring that's a great post on math there. thanks for re-posting
 
You're all welcome :)
 
@ReutSharabani No worries, Reut. I should add it to my favourites...
 
@PM2Ring I remember a boss I once had told me a story about when he started out, it was all punch cards, and as a trainee, one of his roles was to ferry the cards around on a trolley to the appropriate programmers etc... one day he upset the trolley and splashed the punch cards all over the floor. People were not happy as putting them back in the correct order was a tomato :)
 
Yeah, dropping those things, numbered or not, must've been a nightmare.
Well, not numbered I guess would mean you throw them away :)
 
@JonClements Oh yes! Some friends of mine at the museum were writing a compiler for Minitran (bigger than BASIC, smaller than Fortran); one day they dropped their card deck. They were not pleased. In a high level language it wouldn't be so bad, re-ordering the cards from a source printout. But that's really painful in assembler.
However, it was conventional in those cards to use columns 73-80 for sequence numbers, and that field was generally considered an automatic comment field in most languages. But not everybody bothered using that sequence number field...
 
12:36 PM
And these days, highly available, DRed offsite backup is becoming increasingly common, and even is used to run automated tests and deploys, and even that can feel cumbersome. I can't imagine having to use punched cards :)
 
I'll have to say this periodically: the SOPython canon list rocks.
 
Anyway, after my friends' mishap I wrote a couple of small utilities in assembler to make it easier to use those sequence numbers, including a tiny program that used radix sort to sort a scrambled deck of cards. FWIW, radix sort was the 1st sorting algorithm I learned, before I'd even heard of bubblesort or any of the others.
 
I get to dupe-close common questions within seconds before anyone even has thought of typing in an answer.
 
@Martijn I for one need to make more of an effort to add stuff... I'm sure I've seen a few that I've thought I'll add that later - can I remember what they were? :(
 
Wiki has a picture of an IBM 360/20: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360_Model_20 , with multifunction card machine.
@RobertGrant Understood. They were a bit cumbersome. But they were also very tangible. And when looked after they have a long shelf life. There may even be some of my old program decks hiding in storage somewhere at my parents' place. :)
 
12:44 PM
@PM2Ring your challenge: write a physical backup system which takes source code and prints it (tar+gzip+base64encode?), and then you can scan that back in if you need to :)
 
My first job was loading/writing/returning and managing a library of these b*tards
 
poor puppy.
imagines jon carrying disks back and forth
 
@RobertGrant :) Back in the days of Fidonet I knew a guy who's floppy drive on his home computer died, so to transport stuff from his work he resorted to uuencoding it, printing it and keying it in by hand when he got home.
 
Wow :)
 
@GamesBrainiac Tapes, not disks. The portable disks back in Ancient Times were even more unwieldy than the tapes:
Radix sort was quite well-known back in the day of the edge-notched card. You could perform radix sort manually on those cards, just using a knitting needle (or similar), although there were also machines that could do it mechanically.
 
1:07 PM
@ReutSharabani you and @MartijnPieters appear to have answered half of that "remove dupes" question each :)
 
Yeah, I just did something similar so I thought I'd help. And I used bad python as usual, which is a habit of mine (the part that uses or)
 
I like that knitting needle thing, very clever :)
And multiple knitting needles to do an OR search?
 
@RobertGrant Yeah, that'd work, but it would get hard to manage the knitting needles if you want to OR on multiple fields. So the machines were useful for stuff like that. But for simple radix sorting, doing it by hand was simple & quick.
 
1:26 PM
@PM2Ring I grew up with my father working at Harris Computers.
So I saw loads of that kind of equipment.
My brother and I dismantled core memory boards for fun and magnets.
 
@MartijnPieters Groovy!
 
We had these big panels of switches from computer consoles. Toggles and three-state switches, etc.
Made for great make-believe Space Shuttle cockpit flying!
 
I bet you had great fun.
 
I also had those platters under my bed. Not sure why now.
Big plastic case with handle to seat them into the reader, as I recall.
 
Those old core memories were bulky & slow, but at least your RAM was non-volatile. :)
@MartijnPieters Yep.
They were quite heavy. I was always scared of dropping them on the rare occasions I had to handle them.
 
The clock speed was so slow on those old machines & they put out so much EMF that you could sit an AM radio on top of the computer and hear all sorts of spacey bleeps & bloops. And if your program went into a tight infinite loop, you could actually hear it on the radio. Some people utilized this effect to write primitive music-playing programs.
 
@Ffisegydd ah ha! I got enough answer in - fear me!
 
;-;
I'll survive, got myself a nice little range answer there anyway which pushes me 1 away from list bronze.
 
Queue 80's montage music! :p
 
We need to form an 80s montage for @davidism, he's got 500 rep to go.
 
1:45 PM
cabbage
you called?
 
Talk of the devil :)
 
Speak of the devil you win this time pup.
 
Found a data analytics group in Bath. Going to go to a meeting tomorrow.
 
@Ffisegydd I find that cool and sad at the same time... ummm
 
1:52 PM
;-;
 
erm, what is the full path for the Python executable on Windows?
I thought it would be C:\Python34\Scripts\python
but with no access to a Windows machine with Python...
 
@Martijn just a sec
 
C:\Python34\python.exe would be my guess
 
C:\Python34\python.exe is, indeed, a valid guess.
 
not in a subdir then?
check.
 
1:56 PM
Scripts has stuff like pip and co...
 
Yeah.
 
@Ffisegydd you may also have noticed at 10k you get to see the chat flags being thrown about in some of the more notorious of the rooms :p
 
@Jon yeah seen them already,
 
Rbrb!
 
I love the fact Number 10 is saying that Cameron hung-up as soon as he realised it was a prank call... but Cameron has said in an interview that when he asked who it was, they answered "It's a hoax call" :)
 
2:03 PM
Sharp as a tack, our Dave.
 
Sherlock Holmes is quivering in his fictional boots no doubt...
 
2:14 PM
welcome @KevinBrown
 
Can one say The script will error out?
 
@RobertGrant Windows 10 will be shipping with a package manager already. I'm not sure how good it will be though.
 
@vaultah One can. And hopefully the reader will get what you mean. :)
rhubarb
 
I roughly meant The script will produce an error and exit
 
do python lists guarantee iteration in-order? in things like:
`for item in lst: # do stuff`
 
2:20 PM
Yes
 
Where does it say so?
I went all the way to the code:

https://github.com/python-git/python/blob/715a6e5035bb21ac49382772076ec4c630d6e960/Include/listobject.h

but I may have missed the doc to say it
 
Might be one of those things that the devs consider self-evident. I think I'll look around the docs, though
 
Umm... two @Kevin's in the room at the same - don't think that's allowed. You need to go all highlander on each other :)
 
@ReutSharabani A Sequence guarantees iteration in order, and a list is a subclass of a Sequence.
issubclass(list, collections.Sequence) is True.
 
Let the pings begin...
 
2:29 PM
I think we need a change actually, and New Kevin seems lovely. Sorry Old Kevin, your services are no longer required.
 
Ok bye, I am a PHP dev now
 
oh nice one @Ffisegydd - you've just gone and pushed @Kevin to the dark side...
 
Didn't take much pushing, seems to me he must have had php-leanings to go over so quickly.
 
@Ffisegydd maybe he was working for PHP all this time, and was aiming to destroy us from within...
 
2:32 PM
If you ask me, I deserve a medal for exposing a traitor.
 
I like to think of myself as a natural disaster. Harmful yet not malicious.
 
@Kevin like an earthquake that causes a tsunami?
 
Precisely.
 
I reckon that should be on your CV
 
@vaultah thanks
 
2:35 PM
Or at the very least - in your SO profile :)
 
Ok, the abstract base class PEP says, "[Sequence's] concrete __iter__ method iterates over the elements using __getitem__ with integer arguments 0, 1, and so on, until IndexError is raised."
Going over indices 0, 1, and so on, is pretty much the definition of "in order"
 
Does matplotlib require all values to be numbers?
e.g. if barh() throws a TypeError: unorderable types: str() < int(), could that be because the values list contains strings?
 
@Martijn yes, I think so.
 
I wonder why it's doing ordering in the first place.
 
Actually, scratch that, maybe it doesn't.
Where's the question?
 
2:42 PM
-2
Q: IndexError: list index out of range : error even after the list isn't

BrilliantI get list index out of range error even though it isn't . I am attaching the image of my CSV as well. name=[] value=[] readFile=open('CsvMat.csv','r').read() eachline=readFile.split('\n') for line in eachline: split=line.split(',') name.append(split[0]) value.append(split[1]) pos...

 
Wild guess: the Y argument can be mixed type, but the X argument can't.
 
@Martijn yeah it is.
import matplotlib.pyplot as plt

plt.barh([1, 2, 3, 4, 5], [1, 2, 3, 'martijn'])
#Traceback (most recent call last):
#  File "C:\Users\kjp25\Dropbox\Python\derp.py", line 3, in <module>
#    plt.barh([1, 2, 3, 4, 5], [1, 2, 3, 'martijn'])
#  File "C:\Python34\lib\site-packages\matplotlib\pyplot.py", line 2591, in barh
#    ret = ax.barh(bottom, width, height=height, left=left, **kwargs)
#  File "C:\Python34\lib\site-packages\matplotlib\axes\_axes.py", line 2186, in barh
#    bottom=bottom, orientation='horizontal', **kwargs)
 
Wild guess failed :-(
 
Note that the values list is all strings (taken from a CSV file).
unless you apply my last change, where I change it to all floats.
 
Sounds like Germany are going to refuse to budge for Greece :)
 
2:53 PM
I wanted to make a plate tectonics joke there, but I can't tell from this map map whether Greece and Germany are on different plates or not.
And we all know that scientific accuracy is paramount when making jokes.
 
@Kevin Looks like part of Greece isn't..
but I am not sure.
 
3:09 PM
GOOOOOOOOOONG
 
Right - I'm gonna take a break for a bit, have a bite to eat and watch last night's dragons den
 
Is it worth bugging this guy to make his answer more than a link? I expect the best he could do is upload the images of the formula. But I kind of expect imgur links to rot before Wikipedia links do.
 
cel
Well, even if the link rots, googling Zeller's congruence will still help
not-so-elegant one-liner, though
 
Understandable. Human measurement of time is inherently messy
 
3:20 PM
@Kevin Nah, I suggested they improve their answer by downvoting it instead.
 
cel
hmh, I would leave that information in a comment... hmm
 
ah, still have a proforma comment for such posts. Commented.
gone
 
I wanted a better answer, not no answer :-(
Maybe he's working on improving it right now! :-)
 
@Kevin I left another comment on the question to invite that user to post a proper answer.
 
ok :-)
 
user559633
3:49 PM
morning/afternoon all
 
cbg mtfl
 
4:15 PM
struggling with CORS on flask/AJAX, similar issue as me
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25550337/http-post-request-header-field-access-control-allow-origin-is-not-allowed-by-ac
 
@rodling are you trying to ask us a question or something?
 
yes, sorry for being clear as mud
 
basically, seems like I declared all the headers and still doesnt allow it
 
user559633
@davidism smbc has been on a roll
 
user559633
4:21 PM
 
There was a cardinal in my yard yesterday. I believe this is an omen predicting that a cardinal will be in my yard.
 
I dunno sometimes bad questions deserve one word answers or links .... tbh there are days I wish I could just post a lmgtfy link
 
user559633
I think the most distracting thing in an office is conference call overspray
 
since if they just google the title of their question they find in the first link the solution
is that where two co workers on either side of you are on a conference call to each other?
 
I generally dislike "google it" responses, because for all we know, in ten years that very post will be the top result for googling it.
And there's nothing more infuriating than clicking the first google result and finding that the reply is "did you even bother searching for this?"
 
4:25 PM
Ten years from now, there will be no Google "results", there will just be the Truth.
 
user559633
@JoranBeasley yes, or there's just a speakerphone plopped down and just noise coming out of it
 
@JoranBeasley ya, spent fair bit of time googling... and the question on SO didnt have a working answer either
 
@Kevin I'm sure there's an xkcd for that...
cbg @Joran
 
@rodling I was not refering to your post explicitly
 
user559633
just implicitly
 
4:26 PM
@JonClements Closest I could find:
 
^
 
although that frustration is rather orthogonal to the one I just expressed. It's possible to get a "just google it" reply, followed by additional helpful replies.
 
@JonClements well boiled cbg and corned beef to you :P
 
thank you kind sir... - I gratefully accept your offering and proceed to make a very strange sandwich...
 
well the ones that I end up wanting to post on are typically ones that I google and literally the first result (or one of the first) is a very thorough explanation/tutorial of exactly their problem(which is some very well known problem in python typically(ie: How do I send serial commands?))
post lmgtfy links on
(note that I dont I sometimes wish I could though)
 
4:31 PM
We need a "let me go to the docs for you", which will be slightly less insulting that lmgtfy.
 
sometimes I feel like they need to be insulted (copy paste homework questions for example)
maybe it will wake them up that thats not how you get things done
or even worse when someone has a task that is work related and comes here because they are too incompetent or too lazy and basically details their task and puts one line of non-sense as their demonstrated effort
 
user559633
yes, if there's something about time vampires and newbies it's that every time you strike one down, two more don't come and take their place
 
user559633
I'd agree that "learn how to learn" is a good use of time for new users, but "how does i python until i get my grade/paycheck" users tend to ask and then go away
 
user559633
except for that high rep user that i always forget that has like 20k rep from just asking a bunch of questions that other non-documentation-reading people tend to have
 
Bah, www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ uses JavaScript trickery to not link directly to the downloads.
 
4:42 PM
Newbies are like starfish.
3
 
Which means it cannot be used as a --find-links target for pip.
 
user559633
@MartijnPieters wow, what a jerk thing to do
 
pip install -f http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ some_project would have been helpful.
 
user559633
yeah,. agreed.
 
yeah that would be good
 
4:43 PM
in all those cases where people download a 64-bit version for their 32-bit Python or for the wrong version, etc.
@Kevin This webpage is not available sez Chrome.
timeout.
Perhaps the corporate network took a dislike to the PDF.
 
@MartijnPieters Ok, have a pastebin equivalent.
 
@Kevin nice story. Agreed, newbies are a little like starfish.
But the ones that whine and complain about how I toss 'm into the see can damn well dry out on the beach.
 
:-)
 
@MartijnPieters if you email the ~gohlke he might change his links just for that
maybe
 
4:48 PM
not sure why he would be opposed
 
@JoranBeasley as someone who doesn't use Windows, I am not sure if I care enough.
 
I use windows ... but its not too painful to just download the appropriate whl\
 
Maybe he's worried that non-tricky linking would impose a greater load on his site...? But it's an .edu site, so I'm guessing he's not paying for the hosting
 
however it can be too painful to compile some of them on windows
 
Nor is the page ad-supported, which is usually the reason for denying direct links
 
4:49 PM
@JoranBeasley sure, but the what file do I pick pain could be avoided altogether.
 
even for me ... so far Ive been able to eventually compile whatever ... but sometimes it takes several hours
of tweaks
yeah this is very true
 
given the JS code, the page must surely be generated from some database.
 
but Im always in the same python (mostly)
yes
its doing htmlentity replaces on that weird int list
 
> Whoops. I marked this as a duplicate of the wrong question.
 
@Kevin re-closed.
 
4:59 PM
I emailed ~gohlke about his js voodoo ... who knows if he will care
 
Doubt --- If a question contains the f word, shouldn't it be marked offensive?
 
If I have a file /one/two/three/four.py, and I have /one in my sys.path, then I should be able to do 'import two.three.four' right?
 
@user939259 assuming there is an __init__.py file in dirs "two" and "three", yes.
 
I think so, as long as each directory has an __init__.py.
@davidism You're too fast for me.
 
@BhargavRao I usually ignore swear words if they're inside a code sample or whatever
 
5:10 PM
Why do I need __init__.py in this case but not when it's just one level deep?
 
@BhargavRao If it's the only thing offensive about the post, I would just edit it out (if I could reach the character limit). But if the tone is generally offensive I would flag it.
 
"How do I split 'foo bar f--- baz' into a list?" is unoffensive to me, "How do I split 'foo bar baz' into a f-ing list?" is offensive
 
@Kevin There was a line to the effect as Why the f is this going wrong. I flagged it as offensive. The flag was declined, But then the question was edited ... :(
 
@user939259 "one level deep" is modules in "/one", which is already on your path, things within directories on the path are just things within directories until you tell python that the directory is an importable package
 
I guess the mods consider "offensive" to be things that are directly insulting to people, rather than things that are merely shocking.
 
5:13 PM
Ah ... My bad then ... :( Should have thought a bit before flagging ...
 
there's two different mechanisms at work, the pythonpath and the package system
 
@CodyPiersall Yeah, I should have edited it. Did a wrong thing.
 
If you guys like profanity, you should read Welbog's about section.
 
@CodyPiersall How to flag that as offensive? :D
 
I'll accept those F bombs, since they are in a positive context
Hmm, should I walk through the wind and snow to get a hot lunch, or should I stay warm and eat from my hoard of peanut butter crackers...
 
5:21 PM
@Kevin Snooped on your profile, congrats on your 700th answer
 
Thanks. I'm also quite close to 1000 upvotes for
 
@Kevin send the intern to get lunch while you snack
 
Yeah 5 more ..
 
I'll reach it eventually!
 
Would you like to get into a contract ;)
 
5:24 PM
Some kind of upvote generating contract? nah, I'll be patient and accumulate points the ordinary way
Since I don't have an intern, I guess I'm going to get food myself. brb
 
@Kevin Lol .... No No ... I meant that if you get the gold badge, I'll ask you to mark questions as dupe and you can do it straight away
 
@BhargavRao you seem to have missed the fact that that already happens in this room...
 
Where's the canonical documentation for setuptools?
 
@davidism Naw, almost all I've seen go through the 5 vote queue
 
detects a susurration of bitter laughter
 
5:28 PM
@Kevin Found your toeclipping answer. I was compelled to vote. I think you are now down to just 3 more votes for the gold tag badge!
 
@davidism thanks :)
 
too broad? I can't even tell what they're asking
 
@MartijnPieters Yep, looks like it :-)
 
5:44 PM
@AnttiHaapala I posted the answer, but I think it's very raw (grammar, wording etc.) at the moment
Any edits, suggestions, fixes are welcome
 
5:59 PM
upvoted, didnt read thoroughly as I am tired but looking much better than the aya's hackery with sys.path
should say something that the problem ofc with the "any module can be run on command line" is that if the module is first run as main, the other modules can then pull a copy of that module too as the "real.module.name"
 
tbh i think relative imports are bad form in general and add to lack of comprehension of a script .... but thats just my 2c
 
@JoranBeasley it is even a worse antipattern there...
 
I dont really understand why they felt they were necessary to add to the language at all ... I think the best answer is to avoid relative imports if at all possible (which should be pretty much always)
 
there are some legitimate reasons
also, lets remember the zen of python
"Namespaces are one honking great idea -- let's do more of those!"
 
user559633
and yet python doesn't support namespaces inside modules
 
6:09 PM
from my_module import conflict as no_conflict
 
yes, classes, or simplenamespace or whatwasitsname
 
user559633
Bleh, it's all hacky class-like things
 
and relative imports isnt hacky?
 
user559633
did i mention relative imports? but fwiw, i don't think relative imports are objectively evil
 
oh thats what the last several messages were about ... I was just confused ... aliases/module level/class level name spaces should be plenty ... I just dont see any real good reason for relative imports... obviously someone smarter than me does see a reason (since they made it in py3)
 
user559633
6:15 PM
when your structure wants relative includes a lot of siblings or has multiple entry points
 
re-cbg
 
user559633
cbg up
 
DSM
New-Java-developer-has-arrived cabbage for all!
 
@tristan why would a structure "want" relative includes? what does multiple entry points have to do with relative includes?
 
user559633
i don't know what happened there, my brain didn't want to english
 
6:19 PM
lol ok :P
DSM you taking up Java? ... theres your namespaces :P
 
user559633
when your structure has a lot of siblings that call each other or when you have multiple entry points into running some chunk of code
 
user559633
c++ namespaces: best namespaces
 
+1 to this ^
 
DSM
@Joran: no, the whole point of hiring a new dev was so that I didn't have to write Java. Or at least not much, anyway..
 
std::some_thing() === std.some_method()
yeah ok I know not equivelent
but close enough for me
:P
oh good call
@DSM
 
user559633
6:23 PM
namespaces in C++ are a lot different than simple member lookup in python
 
6:33 PM
Ummm... that's not good - I gave a working answer to a homework question, but in a way that I thinkk the student wouldn't possibly be able to hand in without being found out - but it turns out I may have inadvertently given him almost a complete answer to the assignment
 
@tristan yeah i know ...
@JonClements I love doing that ... I just always hope the teacher will be confused by the code and ask the student to explain ... oh to be a fly on the wall
@tristan btw is your avatar commander keen ? I used to love those games
 
user559633
:) yeah commander keen
 
lol yeah I had to google it to make sure (Its been along time :P)
 
I have a really ugly script that hits a public API thousands of times but it's really slow when I test it on the live site vs locally, any idea why? It seems to process each post request one at a time as opposed to completely asynchronously when I'm testing locally. Noob python.
Using requests.
 
requests is by default synchronous.
Your remote API is just slower than a local network connection.
 
6:50 PM
crap
 
> Even I cannot post 500 answers in 12 hours. I know, hard to believe! – Martijn Pieters 3 hours ago
That is sooo hard to believe
 
This game looks like fun
 
Gents, still trying to figure out sending POST with AJAX to Flask. 2 main solutions on SO dont seem to work. Found a question that outlies my problem, flask_cors doesnt work and decorator provided by flask also..
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26980713/solve-cross-origin-resource-sharing-with-flask
 

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