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2 hours later…
01:55
Is there a website/tool that visualizes or gives statistics of user interaction? In the form of "I answered questions asked by users..." or "my questions were answered by users..."?
02:32
Is this Spam? The poster promoted their site three times in quick succession.
03:06
After actually reading the whole MRE help page, I feel frustrated about seeing/having-seen so many debugging-problem questions that don't actually meet the MRE criteria/guidelines. Now what I'm wondering is: when I see a post that doesn't follow its rules/guidelines, should I unconditionally vote "needs debugging details"? Does that close reason correspond 100% to the criteria of an MRE? Is that too harsh?
@starball: you're using the wrong metric. The question to ask yourself: is the question clearly written, and is it answerable without having to guess as it is currently presented? The MRE guidelines are there to help the poster achieve this goal but are not a hard and fast requirement in and of themselves.
then should I just downvote and/or feedback-comment, and move on?
@starball: Who can tell? It all depends on the specifics of each individual question.
@HovercraftFullOfEels ok. maybe what I'm really frustrated about is that I feel like people don't put in effort to try to narrow down where/what the problem is. Note: I've seen Shog9's post about problem solving effort, but the context about that post was about questions of the form "how do I do X?" and not "why isn't my X working?"
anyway, thanks for guiding me. I'll try to use my judgement and give each question its own proper attention.
maybe I also need to take a break
I'd been trying to read about the topic and thinking about it because of a recent MSO discussion post.
@starball: but it certainly can be a reason to down-vote a question
@starball Just to be clear, an MRE is required only for debugging questions. "How to" questions don't require any code. OTOH, they do need to be clear and focused. Having code often helps to make the question clearer and more focused, but code is not required and is definitely not the only way to have a clear and focused question.
@Turing85 Shog9's answer said that not finding a duplicate is a lack of research effort, and that not providing enough detail/clarity is a lack of definition effort. lack of implementation effort for a "how to do X (I have tried nothing)" is okay. But I'm talking about "why isn't my X working" questions
@Makyen yes. I came to understand that from reading Shog9's post, and I also read that "what have you tried" is not good because it shoots down "how to" questions, which are good for the site.
 
2 hours later…
05:29
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine ? The answer does at least contain "Disclaimer: I work for the company behind jOOQ"
Yeah, I think that a user with a lot of non-spam contributions is not really a case for [flag-pls] requests.
It's fine if it waits a bit for the mods to sort it out; it's not blatant abuse that needs to be nuked off the site ASAP.
(note that red flags are in their own separate section, so we see them quickly)
06:21
^ agree. While there is an issue there, it's something that should be handled with "in need of moderator intervention" flags, not enticing a bunch of people to load up the post(s) with red flags.
@gnat Which part of that question do you find unclear exactly? Other than finding it unclear why the OP can't solve it themself. It looks like a clearly defined, narrowly scoped question to me.
08:46
@Turing85 I'm not aware of any specific tool for that, but you can probably find or make something like that in SEDE aka data.stackexchange.com
there's a view where you can examine queries created by other users, though it's pretty crude
if you want to discuss it further or need help, there's a dedicated room for SEDE, hosted by our own @rene
@TylerH separately cringe at the request for screen shots of code
@DalijaPrasnikar I like how the question is about the WiFi not working and it's tagged and
tag spamming
Look, you need keyboard and mouse to fix the problem. To fix the problem better, you need to call in the keyboard experts and mouse experts.
@VLAZ Because "Also my keyboard and mouse do no longer work." is also thrown in there.
@gre_gor ...I must admit, I didn't read that far
09:33
lol, me too
10:12
^ "In the world of hectic high tech, what you need to learn is the abacus"
OK, yes, it's probably something else but I can't be bothered looking up what they are actually training.
@cigien this is covered in top voted comment. It is unclear why asker have chosen to ignore help center guidance for homework questions
11:02
Is it just me or shouldn't an answer of this length be possible to write in 2 minutes and a half? They even knew from which library io was from.
@gre_gor They have duplicated one of their old answers: stackoverflow.com/a/74245912
(Let me know if you don't custom flag it for a mod - I can do it later)
@halfer Then you can do it. I currently don't have time anyway. Thanks.
@rene that is partially what I want I think. What I'd like is to see the userids (or names) ot the people that answers the question of the given user or wrote the question that the given user ansswered, with a count of answers and/or questions.

I'd like to use this to check for vote fraud.
... that needs both user ids... ^^
hmm
12:57
@rene funnily enough, my query seems to produce results different from yours. I am not entirely sure why.
@gnat The guidance for asking homework questions is separate from close reasons. As the linked Meta FAQ in the comment says "If a homework question shows no good faith effort, you may cast a downvote and refrain from answering, but this is not—in itself—a close reason.". Are you suggesting the question should be closed as "unclear" because it's unclear why OP has ignored the guidance? If so, that's not an appropriate close reason.
13:21
@Turing85 you group, that might return less rows. You can't show all details and want to get aggregates over rows. Maybe you need two queries, one for the stats and one for the details ...
@rene ... complicated stuff... x)
@rene could you link me the sede chat? We can then continue there. I think I might have a working solution.
@cigien I disagree. It's not at all clear to me what the OP is asking about. Right now, the only valid answer is to write the whole thing for the OP.
13:37
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine Yes, but the whole thing in this case is about 3-4 lines of code, which seems very reasonably scoped. I assume you understand the question itself? i.e. not what the OP is struggling with, but what the programming task is.
13:50
Judging from the title, it seems reasonably scoped
And I usually don't like questions that are "How do I do X, then Y, using Z" which seem like (at least) three different questions.
E.g., "How do I transform numbers to letters (X), then capitalise them (Y), using an array (Z)". Each of these is independent of the others.
14:12
@cigien I think you're wrong on all accounts here. To start with, I did not say the reason for closing was lack of effort, nor did I mean that. Please don't put your words in my mouth. Also, the main point of homework guidance is to aid in closing questions that fail to meet its requirements. Because if it didn't then whole site would be quickly flooded by homework dumps answered by rep hunters and it would be as if there is no guidance at all
@gnat I'm sorry, I don't mean to put words in your mouth. I am just completely unclear which of the requirements that question fails to satisfy. It's a clearly defined problem, it's narrowly scoped, and is a programming question. Could you clarify which requirement the question fails?
@cigien The question is unclear because we just have a requirement and OP didn't explain which part of the task they don't understand how to do. Taking input, writing output, adding numbers....
I meant multiplying numbers... I just had another similar python question open which needs to add numbers...
14:28
@DalijaPrasnikar I don't see that it matters what the OP is struggling with. Maybe they're struggling with some parts, or all of them. Or maybe they know how to solve each individual part, but don't know how to put it together. Regardless, what aspect is confusing the OP isn't really relevant, if the problem description is clear, narrowly scoped, not a dupe, etc, it should stay open.
Worrying about what the OP is struggling with is something that is more appropriate to a help-desk scenario than a Q&A site IMO.
@cigien It is important to narrow the scope of an answer. Otherwise the answer will cover multiple things and SO is not tutorial site.
@DalijaPrasnikar Yes, if the task were quite complex, then worrying about which part the OP is struggling with can make sense, because the question can then be narrowed down to a more specific problem. For a question where the solution is 3-4 lines at most, I don't see any benefit to breaking it down further.
Another thing I have often seen with various "how to do" questions is that once answered it turns out there are other requirements attached (not only for homework questions)
We have mechanisms in place for that. Adding additional requirements once the question is answered is not permitted, and those edits are rolled back.
I know. But besides the giving answers we are also teaching people how to ask questions. This is extremely important skill.
And such questions make poor dupe targets as answers cover multiple problems.
14:36
@rene and I hacked together a little SEDE query that might be helpful for vote fraud detection. Feedback welcome 😀
@DalijaPrasnikar I'm not entirely comfortable with using closures as a way to "teach" people how to ask questions. Or teaching anything for that matter is tricky, the site is unfortunately just not designed to facilitate that kind of interactions. But in this particular case, the asked question is actually exactly how I would like questions to be asked on the site. A straight up programming problem description, with no fluff or noise.
@DalijaPrasnikar I personally find it to not be a very interesting problem, but I can see it as useful for someone trying to calculate the sum of squares of consecutive numbers. It's quite a searchable title at that.
@Turing85 Please note that the query focusses on users which we normally refrain from in this room. We curate content not users. Of course having tools to analyze content you've found beyond the usual voting is welcome in the benefit, health and quality of the site.
Yes, the requirement is concise, but again what is exact issue with doing that is not.
If we wouldn't be flooded with such questions, then maybe it would be acceptable to leave them open and answered, as answers would probably be well explained.
But in current situation with so many such questions asked, most answers they accumulate are code only answers that don't teach anything.
I don't think we're flooded with such questions. We're flooded with homework style questions, certainly, but the issue with them is that most of them are unclear, or unfocused, or have other problems with them. Homework style questions where the problem requirement is clear, and focused, are quite rare, and I don't see why we should throw them out with the rest.
I guess we agree to disagree.
14:43
Yes, I agree it would be nice to have higher quality answers to questions in general, but I don't know that we should close questions to deal with that issue. The rep system is likely much more to blame for that issue. (Not that I have any concrete suggestions for dealing with the rep issue that will get popular support).
Did something change in the UX lately? I see a lot of posts with one additional ` before a code block.
I have to admit, that increasing rep from 5 to 10 didn't help. If anything even 5 was a bit too much.
And incentivizing answers that specifically help the OP (by giving rep for accepts) doesn't help either.
@Turing85 Yeah, it's the Ask Wizard. The single backtick problem has been reported on Meta.
@cigien oh... (not so) nice. Thanks.
15:01
@cigien requirements in help center, just as I already wrote. It refers How do I ask and answer homework questions? which lists a bunch of requirements: "Make a good faith attempt... Ask about specific problems with your existing implementation... Help us understand your baseline..." etc
@gnat The FAQ is guidance, and it's good to follow the guidance to have a good reception, but they're not requirements. In fact, the help center was explicitly edited in the last year or so to make it clear that a question being a HW question in no way affects any of the closure reasons. In fact, even the FAQ itself says that not showing a good faith effort is not a valid close reason.
@cigien I am talking about instructions in help center. These instructions refer specific list of requirements. The fact that this list is located in meta FAQ post doesn't change anything - to me, this list is clearly presented as instructions in help center. And once again, please don't put words in my mouth, I wrote nothing about effort nor did I mean that. I am only talking about precise specific help center instructions
wait... but the on-topic help page says: "_Questions seeking debugging help ("why isn't this code working?") **must** include the desired behavior, a specific problem or error and the shortest code necessary to reproduce it in the question itself._"
Isn't "must" a rule word and not a guideline word? reproducibility is just one of the three qualities of an MRE.
@Makyen And Makyen's response to me here uses the word "requirement"
15:54
@starball "All absolute requirements and rules are wrong, including this one". Seriously. I think that the way this rule works in a functional way on this site is that it works out to be true 90 to 95% of the time, but never 100%. We live in a world of shading where context matters, not in world of of black and white with strict absolute rules.
There's no way for me to find out why a user was suspended, right?
16:11
@Lino no, unless they voluntarily tell you
or you can infer from their public activity
16:22
Well I assume that they got suspended over a heated debate. I'm just curious. But I guess I have to live with it, that I'll never know :)
@gnat If you feel that the FAQ lists requirements, then fine, I guess we'll have to disagree about that. Also, I though when you said "Make a good faith attempt", you meant "effort at solving the problem". If you meant something else by that, I apologize, though I thought those were synonymous.
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@cigien there are a lot of closed question like this
There aren't too many I hope, but yeah, it happens now and then. A lot of the (IMO incorrectly) closed ones end up deleted pretty soon, so I'm probably seeing only a fraction of them.
17:43
@starball Yes, it's stated as a must. The real underlying requirement is that the question needs to be answerable without having to guess at what the problem is. For debugging type questions (which covers more than just code debugging) answers almost always need to know A) what the user thinks is going wrong, B) what the user thinks should be happening, and C) enough information to duplicate the problem (so you can figure out what's causing it and verify a solution is solving the problem).
Without all that information, debugging questions (i.e. "why isn't this working/doing what I want") usually end up being answered by guesses as to what will solve the problem the answerer thinks might be the issue. Stack Overflow really isn't intended to be a collection of vague questions with guesses as to what might be causing the issue. So, there are rules for the formulation of such debugging questions.
Do those rules need to be followed absolutely, 100% of the time? Probably not. But, when they don't need to be followed, because the question fulfills the underlying requirement of being answerable without guessing, is really a judgement call. That judgement call is relatively hard to make, even for experienced answerers, because they will often go with the guess of the solution which is correct 99% of the time without verifying that, yes, that really is the issue this time.
@gre_gor Thanks, I can do it now 👍
18:42
@Makyen okay. that helped me! I didn't know about the underlying goal of preventing the guessing game. I'll also try to be much more attentive with making judgement calls and "skipping" doing anything when I'm not sure, or just asking for more clarifications from the asker.
@HovercraftFullOfEels understood. thanks!
19:15
@starball Sounds good. I'm glad I was able to help.
 
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