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@Vickel Needs a second reject vote on the suggested edit
@mickmackusa personally I'd take it easy on the dup issue. If the company or the mods wanted to do something about it they would. There's also another thing, you'll see a lot of high reps on meta speaking like they're full of integrity and SO is being overrun by noobs, but afterwards you check their curation stats and they've flagged/edited less than 100 posts in in 10 years :P
@RyanM I've been looking to find my canned comment, found it an then it was way too long... took me a bit of time :)
@Vickel Feel free to steal mine: See https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/297680/208273 for why posts should not be translated by anyone other than the original poster.
The on-again-off-again apostrophes as HTML entities are back for me. Is it everyone seeing them or just me?
00:55
@RyanM thanks, my one is Please do not translate questions/answers for the OP. They need to be able to respond to feedback, and if they cannot themselves translate a question/answer we cannot be certain that they can understand any feedback provided (by comments, answers, or Help Center content). See meta.stackoverflow.com/a/297680/2275490 but that is too long for an edit reject comment
@RyanM Also seeing it.
@Vickel Yeah, that's definitely a better explanation, but mine is specifically trimmed for use as an edit reject comment. My kingdom for a longer limit on those...
I've added it to my can of comments :)
@mickmackusa on the specific comment I can find thousands of good questions to answer in a few clicks. Problem is I don't know how to answer them and can't spare the time to solve those problems.
01:21
@bad_coder after spending 30 minutes tracking down all of the duplicates on a topic, then finding the earliest posted question that actually has a mcve, I see if I can post something unique and valuable on that page. It is expensive in time/care to post a valuable answer on a valuable question. I don't believe the rep farmers are doing this at all -- it just doesn't "pay".
01:55
@mickmackusa hey you studied in the US right? I've read a lot about elitism in EU universities, how that feeds into social stratums and the work market. Do you know what pays off? Feeding prejudice. I read back on the MSO-MSE threads and I see layers and layers of unassuming prejudice.
The "good programmer" vs noob // crap questions is just a deja vú of homologous prejudices.
You'll need to let me know if you catch me being prejudice about redundant questions on SO (or me ever being a "good programmer").
@mickmackusa thanks the thing, I've never seen you buy into that rethoric.
you get a lot of respect from me just for that.
I find it very easy to relate to noobs / junior devs -- because I consider myself to be a noob / junior dev.
I also find it very easy to relate to basic questions from the number of times I've typed questions like "python for loop syntax" into Google
@mickmackusa same here. I've had 4 stack changes in my career. So I've gone through being a noob several times.
02:00
because I use python like once a year and I can't remember which language has which for-loop syntax. and most of the sites with this sort of basic language information are awful
I sometimes look at the trackrecord of the guys most set on disparaging beginners, and a lot of times they are "monolingual" meaning they only ever posted about 1 programming language. (Which suggests they've never gone through the humbling experience of starting over.)
I'm always pleased when there's a Stack Overflow question about whatever basic language thing I can't remember offhand.
I've only ever used one server-side language - php. This year's survey slammed home that I am specializing in the lowest paying language in IT!
Hello! \o
@bad_coder I've never looked at this myself, but that makes quite a lot of sense...
02:03
@RyanM no confirmation bias. Sure I only posted about Python (that's why I created this account) but the other guys I'm thinking of have obviously worked steady on the same stack for years and years (pretty comfortable place to be).
I get humbled (even more than usual) when I venture into js and people start telling me about all the syntax variations and what I can do ...yatta-yatta-- with ES6 ...yatta-yatta ...jquery is awful dead obsolete ... yatta-yatta. And I'm like, sheesh what a bunch of confusing noise.
On the python tag almost all questions are dupes...
@mickmackusa yeah, you loose your edge pretty quickly in the front-end world.
Seems like no more possible questions...
@U12-Forward maybe on the pandas/numpy tag or something. There are lots of niche tags with new stuff coming in every day.
02:05
@bad_coder Yeah I always on pandas/numpy
Pandas also has most of the questions dupes
@U12-Forward try some nltk and see how you fare.
All questions about pivot table are dupes
I suspect this was the reason for the demise of the "lacks minimal understanding" close reason: misuse on basic but legit questions. I've seen my share of questions that I feel do lack minimal understanding, but more of the concepts of general program logic. That is: questions that no one who is a programmer in any language should ever have to ask, even about a language they are completely unfamiliar with.
@bad_coder yeah those questions are rare haha
@U12-Forward After more than a decade of feverish Q&A with millions upon millions of questions, ALL new questions that ask for a narrow/basic technique are duplicates. To get around this, people are asking Too Broad questions that bake multiple techniques into one question (to create a snowflake question).
02:07
@mickmackusa Yeah exactly!
In all pivot questions are duped to pirsquared's amazing cannonical
@RyanM there's gonna be a steady stream of those. It's unavoidable unless you blocck new questions on a review queue (a proposal that hasn't been accepted).
Most of the basic questions that I close (daily) I can find 5 duplicates to list on the closure in about 5 minutes or less. Some say that I shouldn't do this, but this acts as a signal to the OP that they REALLY should have researched a bit more before asking. 5xHammering serves to ward off any calls to re-open AND compels SOCVR to vote to delete when I ask to remove a redundant page that won't roomba.
@mickmackusa Haha
Most of the questions are dupes but people just still feel like to answer
and nobody will close those questions...
@mickmackusa I don't know, it depends a lot on the tag. I suppose things on PHP-SQL have become unmanageable. But I also see new questions every day are complex and it's obvious there isn't enough expertise around to even leave a comment on them.
Got a question in mind for python about why is the list.index stop parameter set to 9223372036854775807...
02:11
I guess I'll re-post my "Untrusted Answerer Block" meta question -- this time I'll have to leave out the block on users with under 5 posted answers. I really think it will go a long way to shift the mindless-answer-firing culture here.
Will ask on SO when there are more people online.
If SMEs weren't so distracted with the task of cleaning up duplicates and closable questions, they could spend more time actually answering and sharing their expertise.
@mickmackusa shifting mentalities on SO. I don't know if that works - supposedly that kind of post needs to be anouncement-featured and posted by a mod or staff.
Like how many users look at a featured post? 1000, 2000? That's still nothing unless it's backed by enforcement.
@bad_coder I hate that you are right about that. I feel like if Makyen would post my feature request it wouldn't receive so many pile on downvotes (but there will be more factors including posting style -- I'm typically too verbose for most people).
@mickmackusa Haha yeah
02:15
@mickmackusa your last post had 1 main defect -> It was long. If you wanna post on meta you need at least a catchy tl;dr in 1 paragraph and 2 headers boiling it down.
each additional paragraph divide readers by 2 and increment down vote chance by 25%.
With much of what I needed to explain in the previous question and its predecessor, I should be able to write a short, snappy one this time. The actual explanation of behavior/rules can just be linked to.
Just realized SO users page doesn't contain the "Last Seen" anymore...
Why...
@U12-Forward gestures vaguely at torrent of Meta posts complaining about this
@U12-Forward I super hate that they've removed this when making the new standardized version of the UI. I need it back.
@mickmackusa even then. The business rule has to be a simple no-brainer, and the text structured as a list. Any rational is 3 short paragraphs at most (and that's streching it already).
02:18
@mickmackusa Yeah I agree
@RyanM Lol
@mickmackusa There's at least one userscript that puts it back, if you use those. I find it very helpful.
@U12-Forward hey if you have the gold badge why don't you close those dups?
Of course, ideally it'd just be there without a userscript...
@bad_coder Yeah I often do
@U12-Forward btw, how many dups did you answer?
02:21
Half of the time that I am on SO, I am on my mobile phone so userscripts are not a possibility.
@bad_coder Well sometimes if it's a less obvious dupe people still answer and I just follow :)
@U12-Forward More serious answer: Here is where it was removed. Here is the MSO request to put it back. And here is the MSE request to put it back, with links to a bunch of other places advocating for its utility.
I mean otherwise in SO there would be no such a thing as rep lol :)
@RyanM Ugh
I am gonna try the userscript...
@U12-Forward well maybe on the pandas tag, because if you go to type hints most of the tough questions haven't been answered due to lack of expertise.
Don't forget to like and subscribe upvote the requests to put it back :-p
02:24
@bad_coder Yeap
@RyanM HAHA
@U12-Forward but hey, you can set the example and delete your own dups.
@bad_coder Yeah somtimes if I answer a question and somebody closes it I just set my answer community wiki
@U12-Forward really? How many of those have you done? Wouldn't deleting be more of a clean up?
@bad_coder Well I didn't count...
@bad_coder Yeah sometimes if it's really obvious I just delete
@U12-Forward no but rough estimate. Of your 2000+ answers how many are duplicates?
02:27
@bad_coder Maybe 50 or 100
@U12-Forward really, only 5% on the pandas tag? Are you sure or didn't you check?
@bad_coder Well I am not sure, it's possible that 200 or 300
@U12-Forward start deleting then.
@U12-Forward The idea behind my "untrusted answerer block" is that people delete their answer from the closed page so that the roomba can do its job. But you have highlighted a workaround that I didn't consider. Does anyone know if the Roomba will be blocked by a wiki answer? I assume it will be. This is not ideal for my scheme. I want bad answerers to REMOVE their answer so that unwanted pages can be roomba'ed.
I don't believe that Roomba differentiates between CW and non-CW.
02:31
@mickmackusa Usually on duped questions there wouldn't be any upvotes
So roomba still would do
@U12-Forward Nope, duplicate closure is special-cased. Won't roomba if there's an answer.
@U12-Forward I 1000% disagree with you there. My experience is nothing resembling that comment.
@mickmackusa 👍 Thumbs Up
@mickmackusa True
Well tbh I often just delete answer few seconds after posting if somebody marks them as dupe
I would just delete
There is an unidentifiable cross-section of users who upvote ANYTHING that looks like a correct attempt at an answer. (I have a name for this group of people, but a member of this chat has found it abusive/offensive, so I will not call them by name.) These users are directly contributing to the excess workload that human curators have to wade through.
02:35
And comment the answer if necessary
@U12-Forward I don't agree with your statement "everythings a dup on Python". For the simple reason I only find around a dozen questions about most of the topics I research. And that indicates, foremost, a lot of really good curation.
@U12-Forward then you are an exception to the norm.
@bad_coder Well I was just exaggerating, obviously it's not like that, just a way of saying not just a few..
@mickmackusa Haha
I never answer if I close the q as a dupe
@U12-Forward if you want to see a unique answer to a unique question here's an example
02:55
0
Q: Let's go [dumping]

ShivamDumping Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous? No, it doesn't really help tell what is happening. The questions with [dumping] are random. Is the concept described even on-topic for the site? If you consider memory dumps or something like...

03:14
@U12-Forward just how many dupes did you answer in 1 day? 1, 2, 3, 4 <- includes typos.
@U12-Forward so I'm guessing 50% dups in your 2000+ answers is more likely maybe?
03:52
@mickmackusa Well, actually, userscripts are a possibility on mobile, or at least on most browsers. They are not as convenient, but they don't have to be that inconvenient. As far as I'm aware, most browsers will still allow you to create a bookmarklet. Doing so may be inconvenient, but possible. Many userscripts, can be operational, at least to a large extent, if the userscript's code is added to the page using a <script> tag, which can be added by the bookmarklet.
Using a bookmarklet to add multiple userscripts to a page is definitely not as convenient as having the scripts load automatically, but it can be significantly easier than manually performing tasks which the userscript(s) make substantially easier.
04:09
Hmmm... perhaps the above has a bit too much stress on (in)convenience. :;
04:44
@bad_coder Okay Fresh Question Shielding — now with no affect on users with less than 5 answers is up and it might be the shortest Meta questions I've ever asked!
sta
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04:54
“I have found that if you love life, life will love you back.” – Arthur Rubinstein
05:38
@mickmackusa I think you actually get more useful results with a lower percentage threshold but higher answer count threshold.
You might be able to pick up a few additional users if the cutoff were in terms of answers to closed questions rather than total answers - e.g., at least 5 answers on closed questions in the last month, comprising at least 25% of your answers in that period, or something along those lines. I haven't toyed with that in SEDE, though.
One issue with the proposed algorithm is that you could answer two closed questions, continue being allowed to answer fresh questions, and then as soon as you answer three more open questions, you're cut off.
You should probably be cut off as soon as you cross the threshold at which you'd be cut off even if the rest of your posts up to the minimum were on open questions.
@RyanM This exercise in situational testing is what my javascript tool is built for. If you answer 2 closed questions, then 3 open questions, then you are probably doing the right thing. If you then answer 2 more questions that become closed, then the FQS is applied.
errr, I got mixed up there and forgot the cutoff was 60%, not 40%. Switch "two" and "three" in my message there.
> you could answer three closed questions, continue being allowed to answer fresh questions, and then as soon as you answer two more open questions, you're cut off.
Should the FQS have a minimum duration of 1 day? I mean, if you hit 60% and it is applied, you then wouldn't be able to quickly delete one answer and go back to answering fresh questions. You'd need to sit through 24 hours of the FQS. Then if you have earned your way out of FQS then it is lifted. ?
Ehhh I think it'd be good to immediately reward people for doing the "right" thing. Both from the perspective of encouraging them to actually do it, and from a UX perspective of understanding when they've crossed the threshold.
@RyanM I do agree.
@RyanM Ideally, the system should alert you that you are approaching qualification for FQS. If you see that your first 3 answers were on closed questions, you could free yourself from the bad effects by merely deleting your answers. This is exactly what we want from a "curator's perspective" -- closed questions with no answers. Then the Roomba can do its job and humans don't need to waste their time manually voting to delete.
05:52
Why do the 5/10/20 grouping, BTW? It seems like it'd be more intuitive if the threshold is always fixed, either in time or in number of answers.
@RyanM I am open to algorithmic changes. Please suggest something specific.
I'd do something like "at least 5 answers on closed questions in the last month, comprising at least 25% of your answers in that period" (cutoffs chosen semi-arbitrarily without looking at data)
@RyanM I could agree to that too.
06:13
@RyanM I think time shouldn't matter at all. And I like the 5/10/20 grouping, as it is harder to keep 5/9 questions open than only 3.
@oguzismail Why not just make the percentage fixed, though? (also, with a 60% closed threshold and 9 questions, you'd only need 3/9 open, which is the same with or without the grouping, I think.
Yeah, I didn't think about it :D
I suppose the drawback of incorporating time in the algorithm is that bad posters don't need to adjust their answering decision-making if they don't post very often.
06:49
In this page https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309526/what-should-i-do-if-i-find-the-answer-to-an-old-question-of-mine-that-was-automa/310266#310266 it explains that if I found an answer to my roomba'ed question I should repost...

but I didn't and my question is roomba'ed anyway. Should I repost?

It looks like that reposting is fine https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/332745/how-should-we-handle-questions-that-have-been-reposted-after-being-deleted-due-t?noredirect=1&lq=1 but it still doesn't feel right; on the other hand asking for a mod to undelete my question will just make
07:12
@user202729 some questions have the faith of not getting the attention of just the right SME in time and no one else recognizes the value of such questions. This becomes worse when the site gets overwhelmed with low-quality stuff. Consider posting on your personal blog / Github gist and link to it from your about me page. If you find new info later that might give a new angle to your question, you can give it another go on SO main as proper question.
07:52
Can any Python gold badge holder change the duplicate of stackoverflow.com/questions/44644607/… to stackoverflow.com/questions/36250353/… ?
@user202729 added it to the duplicate list.
Is this too broad (NATO) stackoverflow.com/questions/11777192/… ?
08:19
@snakecharmerb yes, very
@snakecharmerb I would argue the new answer is spam and I don't understand why the question was handled in that same way.
@rene Yes, possibly - I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.
@snakecharmerb I haven't. A mod flag is now present on the question.
09:20
Are 3000 reputation point users able to see how many close votes on a Question in the review queues just like when loading the Question "normally"?
@Scratte yes: i.sstatic.net/PnJCE.png tooltip: "This close reason received 1 votes"
I checked with userscripts disabled
Thank you :) How about in First Posts? :) Is there a little "close (1)" at the bottom on the Question?
Background, I'm trying to expand a script that shows votes in the sidebar for users that can't see it. It's using the class of that element to determine if it should ask the API.
The script works well on regular posts, but it doesn't work in reviews.
@Scratte yes
Thank you :)
09:53
@rene Despite what that says, those are actually the count of close flags (plus votes, I assume)
It shows up even on questions with no close votes
@RyanM I see. I had to test one by close voting out of the queue but I didn't bring out the socks to flag the same question.
Is it reasonable to close this as "not reproducible"? The question was based on a misconception, and the asker has accepted an answer for another problem that they raised in the comments.
@snakecharmerb Wow, that's ...a mess. Uhhh, maybe needs details/clarity, since it's totally unclear how the question corresponds to the accepted answer? (because it doesn't)
I hate the "pick a reason" approach to closing questions, but if the OP is going to accept answers that have nothing to do with the question asked...
@RyanM The initial question (disregarding the misconception) and the problem solved by the accepted answer are both common dupes too
10:45
@RyanM I'm going to exclude the close vote and the reopen vote queue :)
I get this in the sidebar of Questions. But in review, I got nothing.. which made me open up the post on the side during reviews. Especially in suggested edits where the post seems to be not quite passing the bar.
Ha! The script works in the Close Vote queue too.. I did not expect that :D
Is this answer just NAA or also rude/abusive? Either case, it's clearly a troll.
@EricAya Or it's a summary of what they learned. Good faith and all that.
And if it's cleaned up a bit, it's an attempt of an Answer..
@Scratte Are you trolling me now? :D The answer talks about potty and Drano...
No. I'm not :) I don't troll. I don't know the tech. I'm just saying what it looks like to me.
@Scratte Search for "Drano" in Google, it's what I did. Had a good laugh. Hope you will too.
11:00
I know git has plumbing and porcelain. Mentioning in an Answer would not be trolling.
Ahh.. I see. So now I read it like this: In Linux there's an inbuilt way to do it. In Windows you need to create it first.
11:17
@Scratte Understood. This is quite cryptic though. (or maybe it's just because English is not my native tongue).
@EricAya I saw it in LA review and gave it a delete vote.
... I do that to quite a lot of reviews that have your 'mark' on them. :-)
Interesting comments here. xD
@AdrianMole Thanks, it's nice to know that these flags and comments are useful.
12:38
@EricAya What quota in that ss?
@bad_coder Sorry I don't understand your question
@EricAya ohh my mistake, pinged you but I meant to ping Scratte.
@bad_coder No problem :)
@Scratte what's dos quote mean in the ss?
13:00
@bad_coder ss?
@Scratte screenshot (I'm lazy right now).
Ah. It's not "quote", it's a quota which is the remaining requests that the Stack API will allow me within "this" 24 hour period. For consistency with everything else Stack, it does not seem to be a UTC date, but a 24 hour period that started at some undefined, to me, point in time :D Perhaps.. the first time of day I ever made a request.
I have wondered if I could reset it to a UTC date if I were to turn all my scripts off for more than 24 hours and then make one request at exactly midnight UTC :)
@Scratte that would be an interesting experiment. Thanks for explaining the quota.
No problem. You can get more information at Stack Exchange API - Throttles/Rate Limiting.. or less information, depending on perspective :D
13:37
@Scratte thanks I had heard of this. I suppose I could copy paste a Python script and start playing with this. Bur for now I still have other priorities.
13:58
@bad_coder best to ask for del-pls in several days, no?
@HovercraftFullOfEels uuhh, I've only ever posted 5 del-pls. Maybe I'm missing something...
@bad_coder A closed question with less than 3 down-votes cannot be deleted, not until 2 or 3 days have elapsed. I know that several moderators have also mentioned that we should avoid deleting duplicates immediately, to give the OP a fair amount of time to unduplicate their question, say 10 or 11 days.
@bad_coder @NathanOliver please move to dev/null
@HovercraftFullOfEels thank you for the heads up, my mistake. (I'm waiting for 10k to familiarize myself with deletion rules.)
@bad_coder You're welcome. Please have a look at this link to the help site section on access to moderator tools, especially the "Deleting questions" section.
@bad_coder I think that would be silly. You should learn JavaScript or a derivate and make user scripts for us instead :)
14:16
@HovercraftFullOfEels I'll throw a party when I get to 10k!
14:56
 
2 hours later…
How should this question be handled. Sementically the OP provided debugging details. However it misses the "minimal" part and we would have to check 7 diffrent css files and 12 JS files to find an issue.
@tacoshy you can leave a comment explaining it isn't minimal, but the "no MRE" close reason does include the M, for Minimal
so you'd be justified for casting such a close vote
ok I already did give such a comment already. Just wasnt sure if the minimal part is sufficient to cast a close vote. Ty Tyler!
np
and one more...
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17:04
This question is clear?
17:52
@JeanneDark That is spam and needs to be flagged as such rather than closed
Thanks! I was not sure so I posted it in here so quickly
It's fine either way, i.e. I wouldn't say it has to be flagged as spam. If it were advertising a specific group, then it's definitely spam, but asking if people would be interested in creating one is borderline.
 
1 hour later…
19:18
Hey people! I tried to flag this question stackoverflow.com/q/64418281 as duplicate of stackoverflow.com/q/65614116. But I am unable to do so.
@RandomPerson It's ok now. You couldn't use it as target as there were no upvoted answers
@Dharman oh.. OK. Thanks for the upvote :)
I remember looking for a more suitable duplicate target at the time but I could not find one.
@Dharman OK.
 
3 hours later…
22:39
@Scratte The 24 hour SE API quota period starts the first time you make a request after your most recent prior 24 hour SE API quota period has expired.
22:53
Please delete my request as the OP has provided the MRE
Ahh.. I suspected that. So I just have to turn all the scripts off that uses the API for a full 24+ hours and time it to do a request at midnight UTC, and I'll be fully synchronized :)
23:18
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
^ it's a data type issue. Definitely a duplicate of "the 3 equals".
Thank you for telling me btw. I'll be trying to synchronize myself when I have the courage to turn it all off ;)
@Scratte Well, sort-of. A) to maintain such synchronization as best as possible, you would need to make sure that you're making at least one request just after your 24 hour period ends. B) Your synchronization is guaranteed to drift. There will always be a non-zero amount of time between when your prior 24 hour period ends and when you can make a request to begin your new 24 hour period. Thus, the start of your 24 hour period will drift forward every day, by some amount.
Oh dear.. all hope is lost :O
@Scratte np. I'm glad I was able to help.
@Scratte Well, it's all going to depend on how close of a synchronization to 00:00UTC you require. If you're willing to have the drift be a few minutes, then it's something you could do a reasonable job of maintaining.
If you want an example of what it's possible to maintain without actually trying to do so, you could look at when SmokeDetector's quota rolled over each day. A search for "rolled over" in Charcoal HQ will provide you with that information. Just be sure to ignore all the ones from 2021-07-28, which was the day that SE had a problem which resulted in SmokeDetector thinking its quota rolled over many times.
23:34
I could set up something to call the API at exactly midnight just to maintain it as close as possible. Of course I'd probably start it off at 23:59 to give it a small buffer :) Then check with the quota and retry if it's too low.
23:48
@Scratte Yep, you could probably get the drift down to several 10s/100s of milliseconds/day, if you really wanted to. Do note that you can't just make requests as fast as possible for an extended period of time, as the SE API docs say "we consider > 30 request/sec per IP to be very abusive and thus cut the requests off very harshly." My experience is that throttling will begin well before that 30 requests/s limit, particularly if you make a high volume of requests for a more extended time.
Yes, trying to make a DoS attack wasn't part of my plan :)
I'd set it up for 23:59:00 and then for 23:59:10.. so 6 requests for minute only :)
@mickmackusa The OP is getting mouthy. Probably better to close with NDD instead of a duplicate. The question is not clearly expressed.

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