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00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

00:01
X never marks the spot >:(
@Spectric Did you click it ;)
Oh yeah :P. Tragedy it got deleted
@Scratte
@AdrianMole I've reached the end.. it talks about tuples, but no clue how to use them :(
I read the meta about the answer actually, and I don't quite understand why the moderators deleted it.
But I did notice "Haskell is Not For Production and Other Tales, by Katie Miller" which is linked.. so I'm thinking that maybe it's not a very used language.
@Spectric You can't keep something like that away from people though ;) I'm not the only one linking to it.
00:05
@Scratte I guess 'tales' wants to say the contrary
hm somebody downvoted me
time to start the witchhunt
nvm someone removed their downvote
*upvote
Guess a mod deleted a post
@Spectric Do you even know what button I had in mind? "Take a look at Dharman's magic button :D"
@Spectric "me"? Users don't get downvotes. Posts do ;)
11
@Dharman I'm pretty clueless in general, so feel free to scold me ;)
@Spectric I don't want to scold you. I am just wondering why you have put it on your profile. Some time ago I made a button that tells me if someone might be involved in voting fraud. github.com/kamil-tekiela/userscripts/blob/master/…
Oooooh
Thought it was something you made up lol
My apologies
I did make it. But I did not make it up. :D
I'm going for the fanatic badge. Would be cool if my first 100 days in a row were my first 100 days.
I'm not sure if I'm ready for it though.
Seems like a bold claim to make.
00:27
After 10,000 consecutive days, you get the Lunatic Badge.
Nah, shouldn't be too hard, you've entered SOCVR, now you can never leave
9
@Nick Now I'm not so sure whether joining SO was a good idea
@Spectric That badge is seriously ruthless. All it takes is you to be busy one day and not check SO on time and boom reset to 0. Happened to me 2-3 times now. Once I was very very close :(
@Yatin Sorry to hear that :(
@Nick Hmm ... "SOCVR Room" has the same metre as "Hotel California". :-)
00:30
Welcome to the SOCVR Room; Such a lovely place
? :p
{pink champagne on ice}
Personally, I think the Triage review queues need even more tweaking. If an author posts an image of their code, I would choose "Needs author edit", but that just opens the flag menu.
@AdrianMole You know that if you'll have to know about monads, right?.. I'm pretty sure Haskell has it's limitation without them :)
I'm not sure what to flag a question when it comes to that situation
@Spectric As "Needs details or clarity"
00:33
@Spectric Needs Improvement -> Needs debugging details
@Nick What if it's not a debugging Question?
Needs Details or Clarity
:o. That makes a lot of sense actually
But if it has code in an image, then chances are, it's a debugging question
00:35
Thanks guys
@Spectric But be careful about those.. sometimes, they add it! And then what?.. :) If you know the technology, you're fine, you can reevaluate But if you don't.. can you see it it's now a fine post? :)
Very true
I got myself in a pickle a few times when I first started. So I started skipping some of those with images of code :) Especially the PHP ones :)
I almost pitied this question stackoverflow.com/questions/64602084/…
Or, at least, the person who asked it
@Spectric it has been tagged Stack-Overflow
00:40
You don't say.
@Yatin It does have a stack overflow error, so why wouldn't it? :)
I'm impressed that they posted their code with the javadoc comments ;)
@Scratte ik
@Spectric That's a nice comment you wrote there :)
@Scratte nvm it sounded funnier in my head
00:45
I agree. It is a nice comment :) "Don't worry. Be happy".. you'll work it out :)
Wow. That comment got 3 more upvotes.
4 :)
Isn't a sudoku solver an NP problem? (Apart from the fact that it's not a decision problem)
NP?
@Scratte There's an SO question for that
00:49
@Nick Of course there is.. :D
@Nick Isn't that off-topic? Probably better for CS.
@cigien Can I please at least read it first? :)
ty
@cigien Potentially, but it's not active enough to raise a request in here for either way
@Nick It was active 5 months ago.
00:51
Exactly :p
@cigien Give or take a month or two.. then it's not ;) "Viewed 3k times" :O
FAQ 11.1.3 "... [As used here, "recent activity" is considered to be activity within the last 6 months. ...".
Yeah, I see that got updated in May of this year, I don't look at the FAQ unless updates are announced :p
i.e., That definition is new enough that I wasn't aware
@Nick Sorry, I haven't seen a FAQ version older than 2 months ago :)
^^
I'll just blame Makyen
00:57
@Nick Yes, that should solve most of the problems ;)
Interesting, the closest things I can find on CS are this and this, both of which are specific reductions to NPC :p
Hmm.. so they say that it's not an NP problem at all as it has a fixed size and solutions can be cached.. That seems a little strange to me.
@Scratte Well, technically for any problem if the input size is fixed, it's O(1).
@cigien But.. caching solutions just seems like cheating. What if there's not enough space to cache them all? Like a googol x googol sudoku?
@Scratte Sorry, which post are you referring to specifically?
@cigien The one I wanted to read first :)
01:06
@Scratte Then it doesn't matter, because you don't have enough space to store the grid let alone solve it :p
@Scratte I don't see any mention of caching solutions there. In fact, the last para point 1 mentions that it would require infinite space to store all solutions.
@cigien There are two Answers. The other one mentions it and the author of the accepted Answer says it's the "heart" of their Answer
@Scratte You're right, I didn't see the other answer. I don't really know what the author of the accepted answer means in that comment :(
Ohh right. I get it. There's an upper bound because of the fixed size. Which makes it "constant".. not that it would be a very effective "algorithm" in the real world. I expect a pretty big constant there.
O(1) could take a year on my laptop ;)
@Scratte Indeed. And I see what the author of the accepted answer means now. They're referring to the old version of their post (and they're right). They then fleshed out their answer an hour later, rendering the comment on the other post obsolete :)
01:14
Will this be considered on-topic?
@Yatin I think it belongs on arduino.stackexchange.com
user10957435
@Makyen Ah, okay. That makes sense. I was mostly asking because that appears to be what happened to this question, and I was wondering that that meant. Thanks.
@Yatin I would expect them to have some code, and tell us what "something" is.
@Nick ok
@Yatin @Scratte is right too, as it is it should probably just be closed as needing details
01:18
@Nick I think if it's programming arduino is fine on Stack, but.. I can't see anyone being able to help them with that one, no matter the site picked.
@Scratte yeah, I already agreed with you... :)
@Scratte sd picked it up... so I was a little doubtful about spam too. But can't find any evidence of affiliation
Ohh.. sorry about that :)
@Yatin I think the link is part of the "something" ;) I do not think they've formatted the post.
@Yatin Not sure if they're suppose to remove the copyright if it's part of an error message. But I'm not a lawyer.
Oh wait. That is part of the error message?
Yep seems like it. Thanks. It makes sense now.
fp for sd then. Thanks again @Scratte
@Yatin I reformatted the whole thing as code and you can see it's all part of the same message...
01:29
Thanks :)
01:45
Not sure I've seen anything quite like this before. OP has asked a reasonable question and received a good answer. Then they have applied the correction(s) in that answer and added the correct code to the question (but left the original code there, seemingly untouched). There's no obvious harm here ... should that edit be rolled back, with an explanatory comment?
^ It's in the First Posts reviews.
@AdrianMole I would definitely roll back. If OP wants to show the correct code, they should self-answer with it
It is like adding [solved] to the question title. Belisarius generally picks these up. Yes, roll back and an explanatory comment should do it
user10957435
Probably a rollback is in order, but also maybe a polite comment explaining that adding the corrected code isn't necessary here might be good too.
@AdrianMole I would add a suggestion to the comment that they add a self-answer.
@cigien But that wouldn't be anything original - they just implemented what the accepted answer suggested.
01:54
@AdrianMole If someone else came along, and added an answer with an implementation based off of the current answer, would that be ok?
@desertnaut I was going to do some additional 'cosmetic' editing, but you (half) beat me to it! :-) I tried correcting the title but I get an error: Title cannot contain "Where does my Huffman encoding go wrong?" Grrr...
@cigien No. Not in my opinion - if that's all they did.
@AdrianMole I'm the fastest gun around :)
I think this is a bad habit people learn from discussion forms. They have a long discussion with the answerer and after a lot of back and forth they finally get an answer which they post on top so that anyone can easily find it...
@AdrianMole Hmm, interesting. I thought "Here's an implementation of X's idea that solves your problem" would be ok.
@cigien I'm prepared to allow you to have an opinion/view different to mine.
02:02
@AdrianMole How very magnanimous of you ;) As I'm reading the code solution more closely, I suppose there's not much value in that solution as a separate answer.
Anyway, the answerer has now engaged the OP in the comments. That may lead to a better self-answer.
I agree with @cigien. Adding the Answer with the implementation is an Answer, even if it uses the suggestions of the other Answer.
@AdrianMole True, the answerer is suggesting even more improvements. Does the OP get notified automatically? They haven't @ ed the OP.
But if an answer to my question is "You need to add blob to your config." and then I post an answer that says, "I added blob to my config, like this: ... and it worked." it will likely get flagged as NAA ("Thanks").
@AdrianMole It depends how they do it. I've seen Answers with a complete example, where the suggesting Answer is well.. suggestive.
02:07
Like I told the one without the fear of reputation, I'm willing to tolerate differences of opinion.
@AdrianMole For a one line implementation, sure. But in this case, OP changed 3 lines, so it's better maybe? Not sure... I'm inclined to wait and see if the OP picks up on the answerer's suggestion. If that works out, that should lead to a good answer.
@AdrianMole What's that a reference to? It's lost on me :p
@AdrianMole "without the fear of reputation" :P
Well, I'm following now. Looks like a case of a decent first post and a poster worth a bit of education effort and/or guidance where required.
@AdrianMole Yeah, I agree. See the new comment on the question by the answerer though.
@cigien I think it's a reference to my efforts into not gaining any :)
02:12
@Scratte Really, you take effort to not gain rep? Why? You can do some cool stuff when you get rep :)
@cigien I do. I have a long list of Answers to downvote when I gain too much. Just to be clear: The list contains Answers that are misleading or really not very good..
@cigien I guess that's: "Squirrels + Surrealists" 1 - 0 "Talpidae".
@Scratte Sure, but why? What's wrong with having rep? It's not like you're obliged to do anything with the privileges you get.
@AdrianMole :p
@cigien I think that depends on who you ask :) But.. I have uBlocked some things that I can't easily block if I gain the next privilege. Then I'll have to write a user script for it and I'm not in any rush to spend time on it.
@Scratte Huh, I find that strange, if you don't mind me saying so :p I have quite the opposite view myself, I like the rep :) I'm aiming to get the legendary badge by the end of the year actually :)
02:20
@cigien I don't even have the Mortarboard. I'm not good at writing Answers :) Or.. I'm in the wrong tag, it's hard to tell.
@cigien By the way (if you don't mind me asking) - what made you suddenly pounce into action (and some action it is, too) after over 2 years sitting silent? I couldn't help but notice your 'arrival' on the C++ scene.
Hmm.. 3:23 in the morning.
@AdrianMole I've been using SO for a long time. I made an account 2 years ago, because I thought had an original question, and it was closed as a dupe in minutes IIRC :p Anyway, there's a global pandemic going on, you might have noticed that :p and I was instructed not to leave the house. I needed a hobby, I figured I knew some C++, so why not try answering questions on SO. Then my addictive personality kicked in... and here I am :)
Ha! I had a sneaking suspicion that there was a plague connexion.
@AdrianMole Well, I suspect my activity graph is a bit of a give away :p
Though now I think I might be getting hooked on SOCVR. It's a very interesting concept, site wide cleanup. It is distracting me from all that sweet rep though :p I've been answering only 1-2 questions a day, and I don't think I've even hit my rep cap this week :(
@AdrianMole Thanks by the way, for inviting me to the room, not sure if you remember doing that :) I'd first seen it on Nathan's profile, but I probably wouldn't have started participating if you hadn't actually mentioned it. Thanks a lot for that :)
02:37
@cigien Actually I do remember! It was a cunning plan, hatched by Nathan and I, to slow you down, and to give us mere mortals a chance to answer some questions. :-) Seems to finally be working... xD
@AdrianMole Ooh, devious ;) Yeah, it's definitely working :)
Meh. I'll pick up the dregs left in Good Ol'-Fashioned C questions.
Thanks for the compliments on my C++ skills btw. At some point, I'm going to have to look for my first real job, and I'm adding my SO account to my CV :) If nothing else, it shows I can answer C++ questions on SO :p
Good luck with that!
user10957435
Hey, I always like having another C++ person around. It makes it easier to get a second opinion on how to handle C++ questions :D
02:44
@AdrianMole Thanks :)
I guess you're USA-based ... because I sometimes get wind of programming jobs in the UK, if that's relevant at all.
Currently yeah, but I'm moving to Europe when I'm done with grad-school (that's the plan anyway). I'll definitely hit you up if I take a fancy to the UK, thanks :)
03:06
@HovercraftFullOfEels Question has been edited with English translation. Now it appears to be a dupe of this question. No point reopening, right?
no point reopening
No, but comment with the dupe link
Ok, added a comment. Is it actually a dupe though? Looks like it, but I'm not sure.
03:31
@Nick Yep, it's all my fault. :) It's definitely not something we'd announce. :)
2
@cigien The author of a post is always notified for each comment added to their post. Owners of questions are not notified for comments posted on answers (there's no special status for the question OP wrt. notification about comments on answers to their question).
@Makyen Ok, that makes sense. So I should mention that to the answerer when they forget to @ the OP then?
Also, do you have a moment to take a look at another "how to do X" post? I have a couple of questions, and was hoping for feedback.
@cigien Without seeing the specifics, I'm having a hard time knowing the exact circumstances in order to be able to answer you. The author of the post you make a comment on will always get a notification for the comment. The question author will not be pinged for a comment on an answer on their question, unless they qualify to be pinged through normal means (i.e. they have made a comment on the answer and you @ ping them, or they are the only user to have made a comment on the answer).
@cigien OK. I should be able to do that.
03:48
@Makyen :p I did think it would've been, just wasn't particularly active around the time, thanks for the follow up
@Makyen This post. Answerer has a nice follow up suggestion that they wrote in a comment on their answer, but they haven't @ ed the OP. They have written a comment on the question, but it says something different. I'm thinking the OP should be able to see the follow up on the answer as well.
Sorry, I catch up the discussion from the last message. I think the OP gets a notification for all comments, don't they?
@Vega The owner of a question or answer gets a notification for each comment placed on their post.
@Makyen I thought the owner of the question gets all the notifications, either on the question either on the answers
@Vega No. The question author has no special status wrt. notifications for comments on answers to their question. The only special status is that users with < 50 rep can comment on answers to questions they author.
03:55
They should, wouldn't it be better?
Well, the OP of the question gets notified of any new answer, so they can choose to follow those if they want.
@Vega I agree... I've occasionally posted replies to comments on my answers without @ addressing the question's OP, and then spent days wondering why they didn't reply...
I'd definitely upvote your meta post on the topic :)
@Nick Can we inverse the roles? :)
@Makyen Thanks. I answered this question that I think is possibly a nice "how to do X" question.
1. To get there, the title shouldn't say "modify", it should just say "How can I print 100 to 1 in a loop?", and text needs to be added to the effect of "Here's what I tried … [code] ... but it only prints 10 to 19". Would these edits change the OP's intent? (There's a nice advantage that none of the answers would need editing.)
2. I think this addresses all the points you made about the usefulness of a post, but I’m not sure about the “narrow specific problem that can be used in a larger context” part. Does this qualify?
@cigien At the time the answer author's comment was made under the answer, there was a comment on the answer from the question OP. That comment by the question author was subsequently deleted. I don't know if that would cause the notification generated by the non-deleted comment by the answer author to be canceled/deleted. With their comment deleted, the question author should no longer be pingable on the answer for new comments.
04:05
Also, I think it's worth mentioning that I think the post is more useful partly because of my answer. That's how C++ code is going to be written in the very near future IMO, and I'd like to get the message out there :p I think the post is fine without that as well, but I thought it better to disclose my bias up front.
@Vega It's clear that a significant number of people expect it. I think that it would be reasonable to have them be pingable, but probably not to automatically get notifications for every comment on an answer. That would very rapidly get annoying for question authors on questions that get a large number of answers with comments. Fortunately, there is, now, the "follow" feature which allows question authors to get those notifications, if they want them.
@Makyen Ah, so the only option would be to ask the answerer to repeat their comment under the OP's question, and delete their old comment? If so, I'll try that then.
@cigien For that specific comment, I don't know if there will be a notification, or not. Repeating/moving (deleting & reposting) the comment to under the question is the assured way to make sure the comment is seen.
@Makyen Sounds good, thanks. I'll see if I can get the answerer to do that.
@cigien ooops. Sorry. I had the comments mixed up. The first comment, which is from desertnaut and has an actual @YolanMaldonado in it, is the one that may, or may not, have notified the question author. The comment on the answer by the answer author would have notified desertnaut, but definitely not the question author.
04:14
@Makyen No worries. It's the answerer's comment I want the OP to see anyway. I added a comment on it, maybe it'll work.
Hmm, now I realize I could simply have commented on the OP's question with "make sure to see the follow up on the answer you accepted ..." :p
@cigien Those seem to be fine changes to me.
@cigien My main problem is that I would have expected there to be some existing question which could be used as a duplicate.
04:31
@Makyen Yeah, it's a fair point. There is this but the key difference here is it's just increasing order. The reverse order of printing in the post under discussion makes it not a dupe I feel (at least given my solution).
In reverse, there's this, but that's not really nice. The multiple language tags in particular make it not a nice post IMO.
These were the closest targets I could find, but I could have just missed the perfect one :p
Also, that second dupe possibility should probably be looked at independently anyway. 3 different language tags is strange, and it has, unsurprisingly, gathered 19 answers already :( Well, including 5 deleted answers.
04:50
@Makyen Reading this more closely, it seems there is some confusion on the part of the OP, as well as comments on the accepted answer, as to what direction the OP wants the numbers printed in. I'm not entirely comfortable with it as a dupe regardless.
05:29
@JohnDvorak OPs problem is actually a couple of typos...
@mickmackusa Probably a bit late for that, the question should have been closed as a duplicate of the link in that answer, and I have done so.
Cheers @Nick (I don't believe in "too late to curate")
@mickmackusa I was thinking more along the lines of your comment; that was one of OP's first posts and tbh that sort of answer happened a lot back in those days.
As you know, Lawrence remains relatively active.
 
1 hour later…
07:07
@Makyen TIL, thank you :)
@mickmackusa Good to know the Ozzies are still around :)
@desertnaut I wanted to let you know I heard there was an earthquake in Greece. I meant to write when the Mediterranean hurricane happened, but I was so busy I haven't found time to read up on either event. Hope you folks are doing alright there.
07:37
@bad_coder it's Aussies and there's only one of us here (me :)
@Nick Ohh with an "A", thanks for the correction. So you're the one representative of your continent in this room :D
I'm the only one crazy enough to be on SO on a Saturday afternoon! To be fair though I am sitting in the spa...
@Nick The man is relaxing :D yeah I like SO when I'm feeling brain dead with nothing better to do :D
@bad_coder yeah ... time to head off to make martinis... that will help with the "brain dead" part :)
@Nick Well deserved on Saturday, I've been laying off the booze lately...
07:50
@bad_coder I AM an Aussie and have been since 2010. TBH, I love Australia much more than I love America (and I represented USA in sport for a few years). zimbio.com/photos/Mick+Harner
@bad_coder I occasionally think of doing that but fortunately I recover fairly quickly :)
(from those thoughts)
@mickmackusa I was wondering if you had gotten citizenship in the meanwhile, that's a good thing to take care of...
@mickmackusa cool - tough sport that one. I knew quite a few players at uni
@mickmackusa hey that's a really cool sport and pic. Iberians take pride in playing roller skate hokey
 
2 hours later…
09:25
Smokey: That is a very strange tag on that first message of yours..
10:17
@DavidBuck hmmm, I may have been too quick to vote to close that...Azure Communication Services seems to be an API
it's borderline, though
@RyanM I went with looking for a GUI to manage 3rd party service != software development. I see your point though
It doesn't help that the previous reviewer from Microsoft seems to have just created the tag so it has no usage guidance.
 
1 hour later…
11:43
@bad_coder appreciate the concern; far enough from where I currently live (although we did feel it here as well), 2 kids (15 & 17) killed near the epicenter :(
oops: request above has an open bounty and cannot be closed, but it is terribly off topic
12:16
@HovercraftFullOfEels You can flag it for a mod and explain you can't close because it is protected by the bounty.
@Nkosi Thanks, I will do just that.
@Nkosi: although I wonder if the bounty is lost in this situation if it in fact is closed?
No, a mod would cancel the bounty and it is returned to the op
@Nkosi: indeed. It has now been closed and the bounty has been reverted.
 
1 hour later…
13:44
@desertnaut Should that be deleted? Off-topic certainly, but it's viewed a lot, and seems to have helped a lot of people (it's getting up voted quite a lot). Also, it doesn't seem to be attracting low quality answers.
14:05
@cigien i guess this is POB; not sure if having such highly voted off-topic threads sets up a good precedent
@Makyen Yes, your intuition was right :) I wasn't looking hard enough, but I found this now. It's not an exactly a dupe, OP knows about reverse iteration, instead it's mostly asking about addressing issues with unsigned values near 0. And even if not a dupe, my answer is quite appropriate there. Thanks for the guidance :)
@HovercraftFullOfEels is there a way to ask this in a non-closeworthy way?
@JohnDvorak Is that a rhetorical question? Of course there is, just not on this site
14:10
@desertnaut Ah, I didn't consider the precedent issue. Is that sufficient reason to delete it though? Also, I think there are a lot of such questions on SO, so that might be a lost cause? Maybe the banner that says, "this is not an acceptable question, but it has value", or something like that would address that issue. I think that's what locking/protecting a question does, I'm not sure.
@JohnDvorak: Reddit? Quora?
:shudders:
What's the protocol on posting essentially identical answers for 2 very similar questions, that are not exact dupes?
14:28
RO please move this to dev/null OP edited the question.
@cigien If the questions are not duplicates, then the questions are not duplicates ;)
Reboot the system is the answer to many questions, yet not all of them are duplicates.
@Braiam Very true :) So you're implying I should just post the same answer in both places, right?
@cigien At least provide an explanation on why the answer should work for the issue the question is about.
^ self answer is also in French
@Braiam Yes, of course, that's required of all answers. And that would make the answers be specific to each question, making them not identical :) That makes sense, thanks :)
14:51
That seems sort of opinionated
In the first-posts queue, is it necessary to take all actions before clicking "I am done"? Like, should I edit a question (which is in dire need of editing) that I feel will be closed/deleted (even if I didn't send a cv-pls)?
@Yatin I'm not sure if it's different for the FP queue, but in general, if you're sure that the question should be closed/deleted, and there's no chance of editing it into an acceptable form, then there's no point in editing it. Just vote to close/delete as appropriate. I don't think it matters whether you make a cv-pls request.
I might be able to edit a question into an acceptable form if it a duplicate...
15:09
@Yatin That's very true. Yes, in that case, I think editing it is the right thing to do. However, you might want to also consider whether it's a worthwhile dupe, i.e. if the title, and question is exactly the same, then it's an unneeded dupe, and then I'm not sure there's much point in editing it.
Ok thank you :)
np :)
@JeanneDark Interesting. The OP's self answer got an up vote. I wonder why.
@TomerShetah Turns out that the details were there, in pictures, but hadn't been displayed, so it's now Needs Focus as they've just posted their homework.
What to do with this question? Is it likely to get an answer?
@Yatin Not any longer :p
15:21
@Yatin Looks closable. While "How To" is a valid question, it needs to be reasonably limited in scope. He just dumped a requirement set.
Also possibly a off-site request
@cigien :)
@Machavity Or "she". Or something else.
@Machavity yea there is also no evidence that they can't create a mre. Might be just like a homework dump
15:36
@Yatin OP made an edit. Still broad, but perhaps worth pointing out to the OP that this isn't Reddit? :p
@DavidBuck you are right
@cigien ouch
@Yatin Probably just a typo :) The OP followed up, and seems unhappy with the closure.
True. They do have a point idk about funcanimation or simpy
@Yatin I think OP was responding to Machavity's comment. Too late anyway, they deleted the post.
15:45
Interesting, not only do I get audits that I already handled before, now I've got a question in First Posts that I already handled in Triage.
16:00
@JeanneDark Yes, there generally doesn't appear to be a check for previously interacting with a post outside of each review queue.
@JeanneDark Where they 'good' posts? These are rare and must have been re-used for the audit purposes :D
@Vega No, I don't interact with good posts on SO ;) That audit was a deleted debugging question without debugging details (I had flagged it back then). The other one was a rare 3 out of 3 "Needs author edits" Triage reviews.
Ah, the situation is worst than I thought ;)
But I got such audits now several times already
Question: Can we add Dhaman's NELQA Bot to SOCVR? I find it to be very accurate at detecting questions in other languages. I asked Dhaman about it. They said it is because of FPs. But I would argue that it has far fewer FPs than smokey. All of my "needs details and clarity | <language> Question" come from it (like the one above)...
16:19
ooh, that sounds useful
16:46
@Yatin A) Your links don't provide enough information to evaluate the impact on SOCVR for allowing the bot (e.g. how many messages does it send to a chat room?; where else is it currently reporting?; why is that location not sufficient?; what account(s) does the bot use?; what is its ratio of TP/FP?; etc.). With some of the above information we could find others, but what you've given us so far just leads to dead-ends.
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
@bad_coder Please actually ping an RO with these requests.
> Please don't post identical answers to multiple questions. Post one good answer, then vote/flag to close the other questions as duplicates. If the question isn't a duplicate, then tailor your answer to the question.
@Makyen This ^ is a typical mod comment on a deleted duplicate or near duplicate answer.
@Makyen I think I've customized the answers sufficiently for each question. Though only the text is changed, the code is identical (almost). The issue here is I'm not entirely convinced that the questions are actually duplicates. Do you mind taking a look at the answers/questions if I share the links?
17:08
@Makyen ohk
@cigien OK. However, it might be something which requires an SME to evaluate. OTOH, it that's the case, it's more likely to be something where the near-duplicate answers are OK. If you do copy significant portions of your own answer, I've generally found it a good idea to mention that you have done so in a footnote, as that generally helps people when they are looking into such things and/or looking for attribution.
17:28
@Makyen Thanks. I don't think this needs an SME at all. I wrote this answer, then discovered a (near?)-duplicate question, and wrote an answer there.
1) If the first answer is indeed answering a duplicate question, should I delete my answer? The question is already closed, so there's nothing to do there, it seems.
2) I'm not sure what you mean by the last point. What would I mention exactly, and in which answers/questions?
17:49
@cigien Well, the question has many issues, I presumed there were two actually good questions
@Braiam I agree that the first question could do with improvement, but I think the second question is good. Also, I'm more trying to figure out what I should do about my answers, rather than the questions.
18:14
Interesting review there smokey ;)
@desertnaut ;) It was a sort of rhetorical question on my part :P
@Scratte ... but did you know about HTH?? :)
@desertnaut Good point :) I didn't.
I guess to cover all the basics the username TiaHth should suffice. :O There are 1645 pages of users with tia in the username..
 
1 hour later…
19:26
@cigien To a non-SME they appear sufficiently different to me to be "tailored to the question". However, I can see how the concepts are the same between them, which does imply that the newer question may be a duplicate.
@cigien Generally, you'd either vote to close or answer the question. Doing both should be ... quite rare, if ever (if it's a duplicate then why answer?). If you feel the question is a duplicate, then, IMO, you should just vote to close as a duplicate and just answered the dup-target (assuming an answer you add there adds something which isn't already there, which does appear to be the case here).
@cigien If you're actually copying something and modifying it (i.e. creating a derivative work) of your own work, then it's helpful to maintain links between where you copied it from or the work from which it derives. If you would do so here depends on if you really created one as a derivative of the other, or if you just created the second one from base principals. In this case, where there really isn't all that much code, it's more likely that it was just created, rather than derived.
The very small amount of code, and that it appears to be at least very close to minimal wrt. what's necessary to accomplish this very limited task within the language, leaves it open to debase as to the code itself being copyrightable. As such, maintaining an attribution chain, if it exists, and even just to yourself, becomes more an issue of honesty and openness than a copyright/licensing imperative.
20:05
@Scratte right little boy scout, aren't we.
20:27
@Dharman I'd say maybe this subset: "you need to hit ESC :wq to perform the rebase". The rest is just life, I suppose :)
BTW I have no idea why it's a dupe.
@Makyen This particular question is right on the fence, I think. As an SME, I’m not comfortable enough to use my hammer on it, but I wouldn’t dispute the dupe closure either.
@Makyen Yes, it's clear what to do if I think a question is a dupe. However, what about cases such as this one, where I answer a question, and only discover it's a dupe after the fact?
On a related note, I actually wrote a number of answers to dupes, from April-July-ish, mostly because I didn't know they were dupes, but in some cases because I wanted the rep even though I guessed they were probably dupes. But how to handle that is a somewhat separate issue that I'll ask later, either in this room, or on meta.
@Makyen This is very interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever attributed one of my own answers, in another answer. I link to them if there’s additional information of course, but not just because the ideas, or snippets of code, are similar.
@Makyen In fact, on several occasions I’ve asked users to remove attributions of comments, or other users, or other posts, unless that’s germane to the answer. My reasoning is: stuff like that is noise; someone looking for an answer just wants the answer, they don’t really care how the answerer figured it out. Have I been doing the wrong thing then?
@Makyen Sorry, I’m confused by what you mean when you say “copyrightable”. By whom? Doesn’t SO own everything I post? Also, all those attribution chains would be really noisy, wouldn’t they? And I don’t know if I’ve seen many (any?) posts really doing that. Or do you mean, just keep track of those links for my own records, and not on posts themselves?
@Dharman Agreed, the target is broader. There's no reason to abort an existing rebase for this question.
@Dharman I don't understand what they're asking. Or maybe I'm just confused about why they're trying to use merge.
20:43
@Scratte The question I linked asked for git rebase -i HEAD~2 and the target asked for git rebase --abort which are two different commands
The rest is fluff
@Scratte As OP says, merge sounded promising to them :) It's wrong though.
@cigien Yes, I'm slowly catching up ;) Give a squirrel a nut and focus is off ;)
@Scratte :)
@Dharman Seems like a reopen-pls candidate.
Also.. I have no idea what --interactive does.. So I think I'll need to hit the search..
@Scratte It asks the user for choices.
I am not going to ask for reopen but I will cast my reopen vote.
20:49
@Dharman Oh, may I ask why?
@Dharman Thanks :) I've never been a fan of rebase, so my knowledge is fussy at best :) I'll check it out now, thanks :)
@Scratte rebase let's you erase/change the history, just like vodka
@cigien You may, but I don't have a good explanation.
@Dharman Yes, I know. That's why I don't like it.. Vodka is fine though :)
I was just looking for that command to copy paste and I already got distracted for 30 mins...
@Dharman Ah, I see, that makes sense :) I'm certainly not comfortable enough to ask for a reopen-pls myself. In fact, I'll have to spend 5-10 min reading both posts to be comfortable enough to even cast a reopen vote :p
20:57
@cigien Quick answer: You own what you create. When you post, you give Stack Overflow an irrevocable license to use it, and also the world, since you've basically said: This content can be used under this license agreement. It's not strictly a "Copyright", it's a "share-alike", which kind of is the same in that it's yours, but you don't have to right to tell others not to use it.
@Scratte Ah, I see. I can't stop anyone else from using it, but no one can stop me from using it either. And I created it, so in some sense at least, I own it. That makes more sense, thanks :)
@cigien What I've, usually, done in that case is vote to close the question. Either at that time, or once the question is closed, then delete my answer and place something similar on the dup-target, if it provides anything new to the dup-target. OTOH, it's also possible for you to disagree that they are duplicates and leave your question on the duplicate (or, perhaps, it's been accepted, which prevents you from deleting it).
@cigien If someone is copying from someone else, then attribution is required. If they are copying from content posted by a user to Stack Exchange, then the CC BY-SA license is a bit more specific as to what's required wrt. attribution.
For small pieces of text in limited settings, it is possible for someone to have granted a license which doesn't require attribution, but even then, SE requires attribution when used in more than a very limited context, at least to the point of making it not plagiarism.
@cigien Discussing "copyrightable" immediately drops into a complex legal situation wrt. copyrights and what is or isn't able to be copyrighted. It's way more than we can reasonably discuss here. However, I do feel I need to clear up the following: For things which are your original creations, you own the copyright. SE definitely doesn't own the copyright. You grant SE a license to use what you post, but you definitely don't assign them the copyright.
One caveat to that is that for things which you create as part of your employment, the copyright usually is owned by the employer, not the employee. However, that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and may depend on the contract you have with your employer.
Hmmm.. OK. A little bit on "copyrightable" in the context I was meaning. For something to be copyrightable there needs to be some level of originality to it. How much is necessary is subject to litigation. However, there's a reasonable interpretation that for code things which are very short and reflect the natural way which that very short piece of code would be written within the language don't qualify to be copyrighted, due to not meeting the originality requirement.
Effectively, this is the equivalent to it not really being possible for me to copyright by itself the text "I'm going to the store." Because it's one of the relatively few ways which any person wanting to express that concept in English in a near-minimal way would make that statement.
I always wanted to copyright int i = 0, but alas..
21:17
@Scratte Yeah, but think of how big of a mess we'd be in if copyrighting that on its own was possible. If it was possible, then nearly every simple statement we make in code would be considered copyrighted and/or a derivative of a copyrighted work. It would, effectively, make it impossible, or at least very difficult, to program commercially.
You'd have to have copyright notices for each line, maybe even several for a single line, in order to give appropriate attribution and indicate the copyright status of each micro-piece of the code.
My plan was to allow products to just put a note on the final product, but pay a cent for every use ;)
@Makyen Ok, that's helpful. And in fact, I can start doing that on those old dupe-answers I mentioned as well. Minor point, I remember someone, a regular in this room in fact, once pointing out that it's not a good look to VTC a question that I could still collect rep on. Should I make my answer a community wiki as soon as I know the question is a dupe then?
@Makyen Oh dear, there's a lot to unpack in that link. From my initial reading, I think I haven't made any mistakes myself, but I'm pretty sure I've given other users poor, if not downright incorrect advice :( I'm really sorry about that, I'll refrain from giving any advice on these topics until I've fully understood the intent, and rules of CC BY SA 3.0
@Makyen Ok, this part makes sense. I didn't realize that I own the copyright to my code/explanations that I post on SO, but it definitely makes sense that SO doesn't own the copyright. Also, the following 3 comments are clear, though I notice there is some subtlety with the 2nd comment: at least with C++ code, there can be very opposing views on what "the natural way which that very short piece of code would be written" might be :p
21:37
Why can't I vote on this question? stackoverflow.com/questions/8028957/…
@cigien It's not a good look and having a non-deleted, non-community-wiki answer of your own certainly precludes posting a cv-pls for the question. For doing it without a cv-pls, changing the answer on the duplicate (not dup-target) to a community wiki answer would certainly reduce the friction you might get from people viewing the action from outside. However, doing so is not required.
Where most people have problems is where the answerer appears to be intentionally answering and close-voting at fairly near to the same time. In general, most people understand that it's certainly possible, even easy, to answer a question which you didn't know was a duplicate and then later find out that it's a dup.
@Dharman It has a community wiki lock.
That means we can't vote on community wiki posts?
You can vote on them if they're not locked.
@Makyen Understood, thanks.
@cigien If you link to something on Stack Overflow, it seems you do not need to provide with a link to the license, as it's there on all the pages and in the timeline in case the license changed. If you link to a post using [](), you can give the title of it easily. I usually also attribute the user using the same markup link, as users may change their username. As far as I understand linking to an entire thread is a bit more tricky, as I believe one needs to attribute everyone on it.
If you link to something on Stack Overflow from Stack Overflow..
21:47
@cigien Yep, there's quite a bit of subtlety there. It's an area where there's really no clear-cut answer and where most things really would have to be litigated in order to know for sure. Yes, definitely, there can be considerable disagreement about what would be the "natural" way of writing a short piece of code. However, for most things in that range of complexity there are a limited number of ways to reasonably express the intended code. :)
@cigien np. Keep in mind that changing to community wiki is certainly not a requirement in general on the site. Another reasonable alternative would be to just leave a comment saying that you are in the process of trying to get the question closed as a duplicate and that you plan to delete your answer once that happens. The issue is mostly alleviated by letting people know what's going on.
@Dharman A community wiki lock of a question prevents edits to the question, voting on the question, and adding additional answers to the question. It does not prevent voting/editing answers.
@Scratte Actually, what I've misunderstood is not how to attribute, but when to attribute. I've told users to remove things like "as suggested by X, here's what I came up with...", and "building off of X's answer, I wrote...", etc. I'll need to read the license much more closely, and carefully before I do anything like that again.
@Scratte Ummm... "If you link to something on Stack Overflow" should probably be "If you copy something from Stack Overflow into another post on Stack Overflow", as it's not about just linking to SO content.
@Makyen I have used other's work in two separate ways. 1. I've used their idea and reworked it. Then I link to the post with attribution. 2. I used something in a post exactly as it's written. Then I also link to the post with attribution and put the text I use in a quote. But I have not actually put a link to the license.
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