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20:03
@TylerH Yes, Thanks :) We were discussing what to do if there's a suggested edit on a post that one wants to close vote.
@Scratte I typically decline them
@TylerH I don't, or I try not to. I remember being in that position for a brief period, and at least to me it was not clear that I shouldn't suggest edits if the post was likely to get closed for other reasons (which I probably wouldn't even have recognized at the time). I only decline if the edit itself is bad/lazy.
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I had a custom flag on this thread: stackoverflow.com/questions/64374754/… which just got deleted. Flag is still pending. Does it mean that SO took care of this feature-request: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/401042/…?? cc:@Makyen
@M-- No. A moderator didn't delete that question. It was deleted by 3 users.
@cigien there's no penalty for rejected edits. Anyway, usually they are superfluous or largely incomplete edits that would be debatable even without question closure. But what really pushes it over the line for me is: this edit would not make the question non-close-worthy, so it shouldn't be a suggested edit.
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20:14
@Makyen OK, yeah, I was just reading up on that. Thank you.
Oh, I must be misremembering. I thought having too many suggested edits be rejected, suspended one from trying for a bit, or some sort of sanctions :p
Is this stackoverflow.com/questions/64505681/… suitable for SO or is that a "request for resources"? I'm still often unsure with these things. =/
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Shouldn't this be deleted: stackoverflow.com/questions/31865749/… ?? cc:@Dharman
@tink it's OT, seeking help to find some off-site resource
@TylerH Yes, they get penalized for that.
20:23
@M-- Probably as the red banner tells me: "You have already voted to delete this post"
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LOL..., @Dharman I tried to delete just now, same red banner popped up :D
@TylerH There is. One gets a rejected edit. This is why I do not edit.
And to add to that. Having one's edit rejected just because someone else wants to close vote it, isn't very reasonable if the edit is good. It's like saying: Don't waste your time trying to improve a post, your work and time is to be tossed.
@MarcoBonelli cheers, that's what I thought, too .
20:41
@Scratte that's not a penalty
@TylerH To me it is. I've come to know I'm not the only one that thinks so.
@cigien ah, nice, well that's a good thing IMO - users will learn to apply more discernment when suggesting an edit
Then you can argue that there is no penalties at all here, only numbers.
@Scratte There are things that are designed and labeled as penalties and then there are neutral things that you just on a whim like to call a penalty; that doesn't make the latter a penalty
It just means you're going against the norm with how you perceive that thing
@TylerH I really don't understand this. Someone will edit it. Are you saying that not fixing a post is better if it may get closed? So that then someone else can edit it once it is closed?
20:43
and that is perfectly fine, but the important thing to understand that discussions around such system features will not wait or hinge on your novel opinion because they'll instead be based on the norms
@TylerH Right. Just like I'm against the norm for not liking declined flags? :)
@Scratte Why will someone edit it? It's not a foregone conclusion. If someone does edit it, it should be OP, making it on-topic.
@TylerH Have you not noticed that huge edit button on all closed posts?
And yes, edits should not be proposed for questions if the question is close-worthy and the edit doesn't make it stay-open-worthy
@Scratte I have. Have you not noticed the huge amount of questions that get closed and don't get edited?
@TylerH Isn't that just your personal opinion? While Stack put the button there so they are edited?
20:45
Your argument is a non-sequitur. The edit button there is for OP, who doesn't need to get their edit reviewed before it gets applied.
The discussion here is about suggested edits proposed by people other than OP
@TylerH But then you're saying that one should do what is done most? Not what is good for a post?
@TylerH Is it there for everyone. It's even public.
@Scratte Editing a close-worthy post is polishing a turd, which is something that is discouraged because that sends incorrect (read: harmful) signal.
@TylerH I do not agree. And I also see a lot of post that are close-worthy being edited. So it's basically you punishing users for doing what the site wants users to do.
@Scratte Just because there's a button there doesn't mean the site wants you to push it
I skipped the words you used that I have to look up.
@TylerH It's only there on closed post. And it's much much bigger than on open posts.
20:49
just because you can suggest an edit to a question where you capitalize a few lowercase "i"s doesn't mean you should. Especially when there are other problems you don't fix. Double especially when the question is asking something like "which tool would you recommend for this task"
@Scratte Yes the current UX decision makers working at Stack Overflow are not very good at their jobs, I agree.
@TylerH Wait... That I don't fix?
@Scratte It is the royal you
@TylerH No, I don't think that's a reasonable thing to expect. From my own experience, I could make high quality edits (grammar, spelling, formatting, and such) way before I could confidently judge whether a question should be closed.
@TylerH The royal me doesn't edit because there is a risk that it will get rejected. Spending 5-30 minutes on an edit that gets rejected because someone wants to "teach me a lesson" isn't very motivating for editing any kind of post, open, new, closed or otherwise. I've learned it.
@Scratte maybe you should stop arguing and start looking up words you don't understand first. It means "someone", not "you, the user named Scratte".
20:52
@TylerH I mean "users like me".
@cigien I think there's not that much of a gap; if you're able to make true high quality, complete edit suggestions you're likely intelligent enough to have a decent gist on what's on-topic or not. If not, you're at least intelligent enough to learn from a rejected edit or two.
There is a big cap, @TylerH. It took me a long time in the maze of meta to understand what's on topic, what posts get closed and that close voting is highly opinionated.
I see.. I just made myself non-intelligent. Or not intelligent enough.
You should read up on the concept 'don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good'. Not doing something because there's a chance you won't have a perfect track record is, to put it nicely, extremely silly.
The think you may consider, is that I did make good edits. And I would have still made good edits.. if not for that rejected one.
@TylerH I do not think my time is OK to waste. My track record tells me I wasted it once already.
Not wanting to waste my time may be silly for you. But it's my time.
It's only a waste of time if you don't learn from the rejection and improve.
So it sounds like the only waste of time is the one happening now, wherein you are not learning from the rejection :-)
20:58
@TylerH No. It's not. It's more waste of time if I let it happen again.
I learned that no edit is safe to make. The post wasn't close worthy. It was never closed.
It's not something you let happen because it's out of your control. I'm also not sure how spending time here is not logically thus a massive waste of time if you refuse to participate in the things the room does (e.g. moderation)
@TylerH I suppose I'm trying to not make more users stop editing by telling you how it worked out for me.
But isn't that what I changed then? I control it now.
@TylerH Are you just talking about editing now or is there some list?
@Scratte I seem to recall you saying you refused to participate in order to earn reputation because you don't want to have the ability to do things like close vote / reopen vote, delete vote, etc.
or even edit
AKA all the things we do here (in SOCVR)
I flag post.. I know about the guideline. If you believe I'm directly unhelpful, I'll leave.
@Scratte I don't believe you're unhelpful, just wondering how you reconcile your metric for wasting time with not wanting to do more types of useful action yet spend time in a room where you can't do most of the actions folks in the room do
To me it's like wanting to join a soccer/futbol team, but only wanting to play for 10 minutes of each match.
21:07
Because if I do something useful, I do not want to be punished.. Once I'm punished, I stop doing it. That's how it's suppose to work.
@TylerH Ah, it seems we disagree on the magnitude of the gap then. The lesson I learned from my edits being rejected was, to not edit posts unless I was sure they were not close-worthy. That resulted in me editing a fraction of the posts I would have otherwise. Fine, except that I think all those edits were good (I'm biased, of course :)), and they're basically the same kinds of edits I make now (except I don't worry about whether the question will be closed).
It does seem odd to me that I was expected to be more discerning with choosing which posts to edit when I had <3k, than I do now :p
Also.. even if I could do most of the actions, who's to say I would?
@TylerH I can cheer. I don't have to play.
@cigien It's 2K for full editing privileges :) But I do believe the feature of suggested edits is deeply flawed and should be removed.
@Scratte There do appear to be some systemic issues with the feature. Another thing I remember being annoyed by was the 2 rep that was dangled in front of me, ostensibly to do a task that I thought I was qualified for, but actually requiring judgement calls for which I was not :(
@cigien But that is only because there is a difference in opinion on when to reject edits.
@Scratte it's not a punishment; it's a corrective action. Even a ban is just a 'hey take a break for a bit' message (unless you're one of those souls who gets a year-long+ review ban, then maybe find a new hobby). It's an opportunity to learn how to do better, not a message that you aren't meant to do it.
""You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretsky" - Michael Scott
21:18
@TylerH Corrective actions is the same to me. It's telling me: Don't do this. You did it wrong. You wasted your time AND you have it on your record. To me it's a very clear message to "stop doing it".
Doing it again is just asking for another "corrective action". Why would I want to try that out?
@Scratte Maybe, I can't say I've given the whole thing too much thought, possibly because I was only on the receiving end for a brief period :p All I'm doing is recognizing there's an issue and then whingeing about it. I don't really have any well formed opinions on how to fix it :(
@cigien I do not think you can fix it. I fixed it for myself, which works for me. But fixing it for the site is an entirely different matter.
@TylerH I'm also not sure it's an opportunity to learn. The lesson seems to me to be more like: It depends on the opinion of the users who sees it. There's nothing to learn about it because there's no rule, just opinions.
The whole thing about Stack Overflow (and its Sister Sites) is that curation (or user-level moderation) is done by Community Consensus. That is, inherently, never going to be 100% flawless: good edits will sometimes get rejected and, more often, bad edits will get approved. And similar things occur in other circumstances (closing, deleting, up-voting, down-voting ... pretty much everything, really).
... However, although it's not perfect, it does, IMHO, make S.O. one of the best (if not the best) websites of its type - far superior to Quora or Reddit, for example.
21:33
I can also compare my old car to one that doesn't start, has flat tires and rusted through, Adrian. It doesn't mean mine is fine :)
I like old, rusty cars.
But thanks, all, for raising this. It has reminded to me make sure I cast a close vote on most of those questions I choose to edit from the H&I Queue! ;-)
I've just seen a user that has a different "About me" on their meta profile than on their main profile. How is that possible?
21:50
@Scratte If you mean have different information in various per-site profiles, that's possible by clicking "Save changes just for this community" rather than "Save and copy changes to all public communities" when you are done editing your profile information.
@Scratte Meta.SO or Meta.SE?
@Makyen No. I mean different "About me" on the meta.stackoverflow profile compated to their stackoverflow profile.
Weird.
I even turned all my extensions off to see if they were somehow messing with it.
Hehe - Did their meta profile say, "If you can read this, you should turn off your extensions!"
21:54
No. But I am running a few userscripts, css changes and have uBlocked quiet a lot :)
@Dharman 11 upvotes for a typo! Users were a lot more willing to hit the "up" arrow in those days.
Yeah, I wish I got 11 upvotes for a typo
They'll get to keep that rep since the question's been on the site for so long, won't they?
@Dharman I wish I'd get 11 upvotes for almost anything!
yes
As long as the post's score is at least +3
That's good - I could just imagine the revenge downvoting otherwise...
22:37
@Nick How do you find any good questions to answer in PHP? I can't find anything interesting.
@Dharman once in a while one pops up that seems enough different from the pack to make it worth while. I've long fallen from #1 on PHP top users (only answered 25 questions in the last 30 days out of the ~8000 in that time).
@Nick 25 Answers in 30 days?!?.. That almost one a day! :)
@Scratte yeah but compared to the 1805 answers in PHP I've submitted in ~2-1/2 years on the site it's a big slowdown...
Since hitting 100k I've focused a lot more on curation than answering...
You've got more Answer than most have reputation :D I have no idea how you do that. It takes me at least an hour to write an Answer. And I still miss some typos
I see you didn't even tell the full story. 4,252 Answers :O I have fewer helpful flags..
@Scratte Just think... You have over 33 times more helpful flags than Gordon Linoff (the second Reputation Millionaire).
22:53
A small curation milestone i.sstatic.net/m9JPy.jpg
7
@AdrianMole Well.. Gordon is also posting more Answers a day than I'm raising flags.
@Scratte yeah, but all your flags are different...
Yeah - His average score per answer is actually low.
@Nick Ouch!
@Nick Not sure that's accurate. I'm pretty sure 1500 of them were NAAs. That's find of the same flag, no? :)
@AdrianMole well, we all know how bad the various SQL tags are for dupes. I've probably been guilty of a few myself.
22:57
Apparently, SQL is famous for "not quite" dupes.
But you're not the only one slowing down.. Every time I see something that doesn't make me happy, I kind of slow down a little more.
@AdrianMole Only the (column) names are changed to protect the guilty
@AdrianMole The issue is a complete lack of moderation. Titles are horrible.
I have tried closing dupes only to have them re-opened by other gold badges and then answered.
I also think if some users were to really go there and start moderating, there's be at least a few upset users.
@Nick Yup.. I've seen that too. And when I've seen it, they've been almost identical problems.
23:00
@Scratte like I said, your flags are much more unique...
@Scratte I'm curious, you have 89 answers and no questions but 2.4M people reached. How did it get to be so many?
I think I do have one post in SQL where I have an accepted answer where the famous Gorden also have a post. I thought that was a little funny :)
@Nick Long story really. Short version: I Answered a post that already had a lot of views.
I can assure you that there's noway I've reached 2.4M people.
@Scratte ah, that makes sense.
@Nick thanks to whoever starred that post you earned me the "Outspoken" badge! :)
The post says "Viewed 2.4m times". So basically without it, I have reached 0 :D
It's hard to get views these days. I put a bounty on a question and it still only got 135 views
I found that bountied Questions are impossible to answer, so I don't even look at them. Or maybe they just were the day I looked at them some 6 months ago :)
23:15
@Scratte there's no point offering a bounty on an easy question...
@Nick True. But I also see bounties on post that are actually un-answerable :) Which is even harder than not easy.
23:51
@Dharman I don't
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