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6:07 PM
@oguzismail You're lucky that didn't get any flags
 
Writes a 1000 word email
Includes a tl;dr at the top
About to send to entire department
Let's hope I still have a job tomorrow :)
 
@gunr2171 If not, there's lots of stuff to do on Stack Overflow ;)
 
somehow I doubt that my electric company will want to be paid in Fake Internet Points
 
Get a windmill? :)
 
@gunr2171 "Dear coworkers, we will have an 8 hour meeting with management tomorrow. Sincerely gunr"
4
 
6:12 PM
ah, the dream
 
@Machavity Grr... you took my words from my fingers :D
 
@Braiam :D
 
BTW, the meeting will be about all the meetings in the next two years.
 
I mean, you're actually not that far off. Part of the email is about our upcoming 4 day (YES YOU HEAR ME RIGHT) meeting where we plan out what our department is doing for the next 3 months.
days 3 and 4 are 8 hours each, and it's department wide
fml
 
M--
@akrun You linked to the answer (it should be pointing at the question). I am not sure, but isn't this asking specifically about merging on dates? Is it actually the dupe of r-faq? I haven't had the time to read the question carefully as I am in the middle of some work (taking a break right now), but thought I'd ask that.
 
6:18 PM
@gunr2171 are you still working on the same place since 8 years ago? I mean, your meetings have their own meme on the site!
 
@Braiam na. I've been at this job for 4 years. The last job was the "meme" one.
though, granted, with the way we do Agile here, it might as well continue the meme
 
M--
@akrun Besides that, we usually try to not get involved when there's dispute, specially between gold-badgers. This is more suited for a post on MSO. Not sure even if a mod-flag would work here. @Machavity @Makyen you guys can explain rules of the room and the mod-flag idea better I bet.
 
@gunr2171 You need a scrum master for the meetings.
 
we have one. she works part time - in the mornings.
 
...
 
6:25 PM
and not at all on friday
 
So she's not very agile?
 
I also only work at the stand-up.
 
Wow, that is kind of a d move, isn't it?
 
@rene I mean, no offence, but that's all I really see SM's doing
 
@gunr2171 that is what the certificate is for ...
 
6:27 PM
Wait a minute, so your teams are "agile" but you have a scrum master... shouldn't they stick to one?
If it was my company, I would put KPI and everything that doesn't help to improve that would be cut out.
 
this is what my company follows: scaledagileframework.com
Oh boy, I would LOVE it if people actually cared about KPIs
 
OMG, it has a gigantic flow chart.
 
I have a feeling it's purposefully complex, it's how they get their money for consulting and training...
 
Oh yeah, the good old "create a problem and get paid to solve it"
 
If you hire me as a scrummaster, the first thing we're going to ditch is that framework.
 
6:31 PM
You're hired
 
I knew we had a scrummaster in the room, didn't remember who.
 
gunr? :P
 
yo! (whoops, misread previous message, ignore me)
 
@gunr2171 Only after 3 months of meetings.
@gunr2171 Wait, rene isn't?
rene claims to be...
 
gtg finish this email and stuff. ttyl
 
6:34 PM
@M-- Thank you for the message. My point is that it is a class conflict in merge and should have been closed. Anyway my flag was declined. Seems like only when I reopen a question, moderators will send some warning messages
 
@Braiam you doubt me?
 
I don't trust blurry flowers, despite being cool characters. I'm wary of what their intentions are.
 
@gunr2171 I like the flow chart :)
 
@akrun Open/close disputes should be taken to Meta. Unless there's a pattern of abuse, or conflict clearly between users, it's really not something which moderators will normally step in on. Basically, for a single post without extenuating circumstances, it's better to take it to Meta. That's particularly true for disputes over duplicates, where you're basically asking moderators to step in and rule in a dispute on technical matters between two SMEs.
Unless it's really obvious, or the moderator handling the flag happens to be a SME, it's something which will usually be declined, and Meta suggested.
@akrun This has been through a close/open cycle. At this point, it appears to be an opinion dispute between gold badge holders. That's really not something which SOCVR should get involved with in an organized manner. Our best recommendation is to take this to Meta.
 
@Makyen Thanks. I also get messages from moderators when I reopened a couple of questions that I am abusing the gold badge (even a threatening of suspension). So, I cannot even reopen questions that I may not agree
So basically the moderators have no issue to step in on technical matters when I reopen some questions?
 
6:48 PM
@akrun really??
 
@desertnaut I will read the messages from moderators "It has come to your attention that you utilized your gold tag badge powers to reopen, answer, .... " and at the end of the message "please help us keep the site clean and reduce duplication."
 
@akrun I see. That's not something I've looked at, so can't really comment on the specifics. Basically, any comment I make here beyond that could be taken the wrong way (due to my lack of information on the specifics). However, if you have an issue with how things have been handled by moderators, the correct place to deal with that is to create a Meta question and/or use "contact us".
 
@Makyen the issue raised by moderators were not even factual. They stated that I reopened a question to add an answer and then closed it afterwards. When the facts were, 1) the op showed a incomplete example, 2) I posted an answer, 3) somebody dupe tagged it, 4) I reopened because the question was not clear, 5) then the OP clarified and updated the question, 6) I noticed it is a dupe, so tagged it.
My point is that moderator message missed some key information (may be they were give misniformation by the flagged person/persons),
 
"I reopened because the question was not clear" - that's not the intended behavior
 
@JohnDvorak What is the intended behavior when the dupe tag doesn't look like a correct tag when the question was originally posted
 
6:57 PM
If a question should be closed, leave it closed even if it's closed for the wrong reason. Do feel free to suggest improvements that aren't mentioned in the close reason that the question is closed for.
 
If the question is not clear, it could have closed as not clear and not as a dupe
 
Although I am neither Moderator nor RO, I think protracted discussions about specific moderation actions taken in the past are not really appropriate for this room. As @Makyen already suggested, such issues are better suited to Meta.
 
Also true
 
@AdrianMole thanks, agree
 
@akrun We're not going to get into details of moderator messages (all the messages in your account predate myself and Makyen being mods). If you have a specific issue, please raise a mod flag and we'll address it in a more appropriate channel
 
7:02 PM
Are "appropriate channel" the red rooms?
 
redrum!
 
@akrun Thanks for taking it out of SOCVR. (I'm not wanting to pile on, but there's additional information): There are 3 places where it's appropriate to discuss this: in a clear, reasoned response to the moderator message, in a question on Meta SO, or via "contact us" ("contact us" is primarily useful if you feel there's been actual misconduct by a moderator).
 
@Makyen thanks. Will try those methods
 
@akrun I asked the moderator who sent that latest message to reach out via another message. They should respond soon. Give it a day or so. Just to reiterate, we don't discuss moderator actions in here.
 
@Machavity thank you.
 
 
Never sure if these are clever spam that make us think they're just a poorly worded question, or just a poorly worded question
 
... either way, it gets some people to visit the website, is not?
 
I just fell for visiting the website. smart marketing move
 
@ByteMe Did you buy anything?
 
7:46 PM
@AdrianMole no, I was trying to see if I could salvage some code from the website to edit the question
 
Too risky to buy anything as I can never remember the difference between lakhs and crores
 
@desertnaut Another time, if you are also going to close-vote, please close-vote then edit, so your edit doesn't inadvertently push the question into the reopen queue on those occasions where the question is closed prior to your edit being applied.
 
8:07 PM
@DavidBuck lakhs have one fewer 0.. or is it two?
 
@Scratte I think you've just made my point
 
@DavidBuck It's two :) they to 00 :) 1,00,000 and 1,00,00,000
 
@Scratte Chinese numbering system is still hard enough to get right (it goes 一十百千万 for 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, and then above that it starts again in multiples on 10000, not 1000). This is harder.
 
@DavidBuck So how do they do 20111?
 
@Scratte 两万一百一十一 - literally 2*10000, 1*100, 1*10, 1
 
8:15 PM
@DavidBuck but isn't that what we do too? it's just that the *x is implied.
unless you mean to say that 220111 is 两十两万一百一十一, so it's 2*10 2*10000, 1*100, 1*10, 1 ?
 
@scratte 220111 is indeed 两十两万一百一十一, so it's 22*10000, 1*100, 1*10, 1
 
Super.. I can count! :D
 
@Makyen I think you meant edit then close-vote :D
 
@Braiam No, I definitely meant close-vote then edit. Edits from users who have close-voted or flagged the question do not push the question into the reopen queue.
 
@Makyen Then it doesn't matter, if I edited before voting to close, then it wouldn't push to the reopen queue anyways since my edit went through before being closed.
Edit (by close voter) -> question closed -> no push to reopen queue
Question closed -> edit (by close voter) -> no push to reopen queue
 
@Braiam You tried to edit before voting to close, but someone else cast the last close vote. You then submit your edit, not knowing that the question is closed, and now the question is in the reopen queue.
 
@Makyen If the question is closed before I cast my vote, any edit after it gets closed would count anyways.
 
8:55 PM
@Braiam Yes, then you don't edit, unless you can make the question on-topic.
 
@Makyen In that case I prefer my edit to go before anyways.
Question closed -> edit (by a non voter) -> push to reopen queue
Edit (by a non voter) -> question closed -> no push to reopen queue
I shouldn't help the question to be closed faster if I plan to edit it.
 
@Braiam This conversation is predicated on the assumption that you are also going to close-vote. If you don't think the question should be closed, then this conversation is moot.
 
@Makyen Yes, I would also vote to close, but I can edit at any time only if my vote is cast. If I haven't cast it the only way I'm in the clear is if I edited the question before it gets closed.
In all possible scenarios, editing before the question gets closed wouldn't push to the reopen queue.
 
@Braiam Which is what I've said from the beginning: close-vote, then edit.
 
@Makyen Again, it's moot for a 3ker since their edit is applied immediately.
 
9:01 PM
@Braiam You have continuously ignored the fact that you are not the only person on the planet and that someone else might come along and close the question prior to you clicking "save" on your edit.
 
At no point a 3ker that will vote to close should worry when they apply their edit
@Makyen I see that you seems to be combative this evening. I recommend you to then walk away and accept that not every one would agree with you.
Edits before the question is closed, shouldn't be prevented.
 
If you want to edit and close a Question, how do you know that it's not closed while you're in the process of editing it?
 
@Braiam That argument is a two-way street!
 
@AdrianMole I don't negate what Makyen is saying. Makyen is rejecting my words as also truth.
 
@Braiam Perhaps. However, what I see is you being stubborn, not thinking things through, and just going with your normal "I'm right" attitude.
 
9:04 PM
Both of us are correct, but somehow Makyen isn't accepting that.
 
I don't think you are right that you are able to put a close vote on a closed Question.
 
@Braiam Because, your words are demonstrably factually wrong.
 
For me to be correct, you don't have to be incorrect @Makyen
@Makyen That's absurd.
That question won't be pushed to the reopen queue. And I would be owned an apology.
 
@Braiam That doesn't prove anything. It just showed that you were lucky no one else came along and closed it while you were editing it.
 
@Scratte Do you want to also own me an apology?
 
9:07 PM
@Braiam I don't.. because I'm not wrong :)
 
@Braiam No. It's not. You claim that trying to edit then close vote has no chance of putting the question into the reopen queue. You are not considering the fact that you are not acting in a vacuum. There are other people who might act. Those people may close the question while you are working on your edit. That's just reality.
 
I recognize when my opinion isn't popular, but I at least recognize when I'm objetivelly wrong.
I'm going out for a while, I expect two apologies.
 
Funny.. I'm out. I don't keep those in stock. I think the last one was suppose to go to AdrianMole.. but I whacked-a-Mole instead.
 
I've been apology-suspended! :-)
 
I'm sorry
 
9:10 PM
I'm sorry that you're sorry.
 
@Braiam You are clearly not recognizing that here, because you are objectively wrong, in that you are not considering the possibility that someone other than you may also act. If you were the only possible person to interact with the question, then you would be correct. You're not. Stack Exchange sites have more users on them than just you. They may act. Their acts may affect the state of the question. That's objective reality.
 
In fact, what Makyen's original recommendation was aimed at preventing has actually happened to me. I saw a question that needed closing (a dupe) but it also needed a wee bit of 'cleaning up' (code-fences). So I thought: No problem: Do a quick edit then cast a close vote. But, by the time I actually clicked "Save" in the editor, a gold-hammer had closed the question. Thus: my edit pushed it into the reopen queue!
... I later came across the very same in the reopen Review Queue; I voted to (erm) "Leave Closed!" ;)
 
@Braiam For what it's worth, I've been in the exact situation Makyen described: I made an edit to a post with 2 close votes, intending to then cast the third close vote myself. Between when I checked if the post was closed and when I applied my edit, someone else cast a close vote, closing the question and causing my edit to be applied after the question was closed, pushing it into the reopen queue.
 
^ The evidence is mounting.
 
Are we still counting apologies? :D
 
9:17 PM
What is the S.I. Unit of Apology?
 
It's uncommon, but those of us in this room see a lot more of these posts than most people, and often simultaneously with others, so the probability of it happening to us is much higher.
 
Suggestion: not edit questions that will need closure anyways?
 
Or VTC then edit
 
Hmm. But applying an obviously needed edit is better than leaving it for somebody else to do. Especially, as Makyen has said, you VTC first.
 
@JohnDvorak -1, we can fix the easy stuff easily, and we should do so if we're willing. Adding code formatting, trimming please-help begging, removing blatantly irrelevant stuff.
waffle :-)
 
9:21 PM
@AdrianMole MC for Mea culpa, I guess. If we're enough we can have an MC club :)
 
more biscuits
 
No candy floss? Hmm.. I think it's called cotton candy in English..
 
I've even made an edit, then opened the same question in another tab, checked it wasn't closed, flipped back saved the edit intending to close immediately after the edit, only to find that I save the edit and it's been closed in the intervening 3 seconds. So now I try to close first.
 
@Scratte In real English it's called candy floss.
 
@JohnDvorak For me, editing a question I feel should be closed is commonly just to clean up common formatting issues. Making the edit potentially helps the OP get the question into shape, or at least we can hope that they will edit it and make it reopenable. I also find it valuable because it prevents someone who hasn't voted to close or flagged the question from coming along later and making the obvious formatting fixes, which then push the question into the reopen queue, for no good reason.
 
9:26 PM
@AdrianMole I knew there was something familiar when people used "cc" ;)
 
@AdrianMole My dentist disagrees, apparently that's not what they mean by flossing your teeth?
 
@RyanM It's not meant to be flossed with candy.. think of it like: first candy, then floss :D
 
@Makyen Note that I'm not all that willing to spend a lot of time on such edits, usually only a few seconds to about a 1 minute (OK, maybe a bit more than that).
Overall, I really just wish they'd change the auto-push-on-edit into reopen queue to being the OP only. Making that change would eliminate the convoluted thinking that has to go into handling a question post-close.
 
And if you agree with Makyen's point there, upvote this meta post, which, full disclosure, I wrote: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/398340/…
(hopefully that's fine since meta rep does not actually exist?)
 
:50264003 spam
:50264009 spam
 
9:38 PM
The second one is also spam, right?
 
@10Rep 'tis indeed.
flag away
 
Now to watch it slowly wither away...
 
I dunno about slowly... :-)
actually 4+ minutes is pretty slow for spam that blatant
 
@10Rep I reported 1 and 3 to Smokey as/when I saw their nature. #2 was obviously spam.
 
@AdrianMole I didn't realise it was spam until I went into the website and found his name.
 
9:40 PM
A mod nuked #1 and #3 very quickly.
@10Rep Hence my 'encouragement' reports.
 
@AdrianMole Makes sense.
 
Is there any way this can be improved? stackoverflow.com/q/57138106/1839439
 
@Dharman For one, should I remove the Portuguese section?
 
@Dharman Is it a dupe of the post in the comment?
... looks like it is to me.
 
9:52 PM
Probably it is a duplicate
 
@JohnDvorak I sometimes will try to make or approve edits for questions that should be closed under the thought process of "someone else might come along an edit this question after it's closed, which will put it in the reopen queue", which is something I don't want to happen unless it's OP (or usually never, based on the question...)
@Makyen I did not know that. That's awesome; wish it were more publicized on the edit page...
 
@TylerH The metas that describe it are Shog9's answer to "Which edits push closed questions to the reopen review queue?", and his MSE answer that says basically the same thing.
 
10:49 PM
@RyanM It's funny that you both (@AdrianMole) ended in the same situation you tried to prevent by thinking if you can prevent it :D
If you instead would have submitted your edit ASAP that wouldn't happen
BTW, if I find myself in your situation I would simply follow the question and visit it later if it got edited, and decide if dropping a reopen vote.
 
@Braiam It could still have happened - that's the point!
 
@AdrianMole That would be very mentally tiring if I was thinking about that every time I'm editing a post. I prefer not thinking about it since if I win the race, nothing bad happens, and if I don't I can easily solve it.
Remember, do not optimize for the edge case.
 
@Braiam I'm not sure that's the case. I've had it happen editing as quickly as I could.
@Braiam That does work around the issue, but it still submits pointlessly to the reopen queue
 
I don't feel that adopting good habits is mentally tiring at all, especially when such habits are really quite trivial to adopt. Just get used to the "VTC then edit" concept and all related problems disappear.
 
@Braiam How can you solve it? You will monitor this post? And be sure to get it opened if they themselves edits the post? Just because you refuse to close vote it before you make an edit?
 
11:08 PM
One situation where I edit before closing is when I cannot read the post because of the formatting. I can't tell if it needs closing until I'm done editing, so I edit first.
Otherwise I've learned to CV before editing.
I suppose in that situation I could open a new tab and vote there
@Scratte 3k users can force a post into the reopen queue again by casting a reopen vote on it.
 
@AdrianMole From my pov, you are worrying that a shark may attack you while you are inland. :D
 
^ I guess you've never been to Marrakech! xD
 
I find doing more work for something that is easily redressable and rare more mentally exhausting.
@AdrianMole I've heard about Florida... they drop you a crocodile in the window :D
Now that's is terrifying.
 
Alligators, maybe. Crocodiles seem unlikely.
 
in spanish we are lazy distinguishing between both... they are essentially big lizards.
 
11:17 PM
@RyanM But then you need to monitor it to see if it's edited and it OK, no?
 
@Scratte Easy enough with the follow feature, since you get notified
 
@RyanM Ahh.. yes. I.. ermm.. uBlocked it.
 
@Scratte If you disable the site's useful features, you may have a more difficult time using the site ;-)
 
11:39 PM
@Makyen will honestly try to keep in mind, but I regret to say I cannot make no promises; there is a certain level down the sub-sub-sub-rule hierarchy I am willing to go in order to make myself useful here, and what you describe is clearly far beyond my intended reach. I can only guess that, if very occasionally, some unintentional thing happens, we will all have to live with it. If I am guessing wrong, please say so explcitly
So far I was under the impression don't edit after closure, and that's why I was editing before CV-ing; now it turns out I can do this w/o putting the question in the re-open queue, but only ifI have CV-ed myself. Not very intuitive, to be honest...
 
I don't think that anyone here thinks the way it works is good, sensible, or intuitive :-)
 
@RyanM I am just making myself clear, that's all.
 
@desertnaut I appreciate your keeping it in mind. Thank you. You trying to keep it in mind is really all we can ask for. The basic thing is: If you think it should be closed, then close-vote first.
 
@desertnaut Reasonable :-) I don't disagree with anything you've said here
 
@RyanM appreciate
 
11:56 PM
And to be very honest, being called out for a practice that is not good, sensible, or intuitive, while I am investing my spare time trying to keep the site clean is not very amusing
5
 
Does this Java Q seem on-topic?
 
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