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7:00 PM
Can someone close this? The OP fixed the issue.
 
@ChristopherMoore Do you mean remove the request from this room?
 
@Dharman Yeah sorry that's what I meant
 
Done. In the future, ping a RO directly for that. If we all miss it and it falls off the page, we might not see it at all
 
7:16 PM
@Dharman this is on SO espanhol
 
@Vickel Machavity migrated
 
ah ok, I was wondering :)
 
Gotta put that college Spanish class to use somehow
 
7:35 PM
@Braiam The problem with the position you're advocating regarding tags is that you're insisting that everyone use the site the way that you find convenient, and totally ignoring that other people have different ways of using the site and/or different workflows.
4
There are a lot of people that use SO. Tags are used to indicate what a question is generally about. This allows people to use SO's search, watch/ignore certain tags, and/or the new post/activity pages for tags. Different people find it convenient to use various features of the site in different ways. They should not be forced to use any one person's concept of how they should use it. Nor should they be forced to go off-site to look for content (yes, even though SO search is … sub-par).
 
@Makyen No, I am advocating to use the site how it's meant to be used.
A hammer is meant to be used by the handle. Doing it another way would just put yourself into harms way.
Tags are meant to be used as categories of topics where tag overlap should be keep only when necessary (ie. language and libraries tags)
 
@Braiam That's not the same. It's not a good analogy. Once a system is complex, there are usually multiple ways to use it.
 
Having a tag for each function and characteristic of each language, library, framework, whatever is untenable.
@Makyen This in particular is optimized to be used one way only.
Any other ways are bound to cause something to break.
 
@Braiam While I agree with that statement to a large extent, what you've advocated appears to be taking that too far, IMO.
 
Lets put into perspective, do you believe that someone with a gold badge into the tag (answering sql questions for example) should be able to close prolog questions? Obviously no, that's why if there should be a tag for prolog clauses (that I doubt it) it should be unambiguously be used only on prolog questions.
And such tag should unambiguously signal potential users of the tag that it should be only used for prolog questions, ie
And that's only one of the systems that breaks down once you start watering down the meanings of specific tags into broader ones.
Tag following? Broken. Tag suggestions? Broken. Review queue filter? Broken.
Pretiffy formatting using tags? Broken too.
 
7:47 PM
posted on July 30, 2020

We’ll be performing some server maintenance on our primary SQL clusters at 8:00 pm US/Eastern (12:00 UTC July 31, 2020). We expect to be read-only less than 15 minutes.

 
@Feeds What will happen to chat?! Why you don't say D:
 
Chat will be read-only. xD
 
The gold badge users abusing their hammers in language agnostic tags is exaggerated. Those acts are very rare and easily reversible. We don't need to change the way tags work just because of a minor issue.
 
NOTICE: Tag burnination has a process, which must be followed, as required by Stack Exchange. You must discuss on Meta tags with > 50 questions before beginning removal. You are welcome to discuss a tag in here as to it being of use, or not. However do not begin to make edits to remove the tag without following the process.
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@Braiam chat's usually exempt from these outages
 
7:49 PM
You missed an "r" in your last word?
 
Remember that the goal is to go for more broader tags that are useful to all and less of the hyphenated tags.
 
@Mithical You confused me for a moment... you are not that mystical.
 
@AdrianMole Nah. Chat's always involved in outrages...
 
@BhargavRao That's absurd.
If that were correct, all questions should be tagged programming.
 
If [list] is the same across languages, then it is stupid to have 100s of minor tags like [python-list], [c-list] and so on.
@Braiam that's where we differ.
 
7:51 PM
@BhargavRao That's a false dichotomy.
There should be no list tag at all..
 
I agree with Bhargav (mostly). The tag, for example, is relevant across a number of very different languages.
 
@AdrianMole should you accept a tag?
 
That's your opinion again, @Braiam. I'm sure that no one on meta would agree to that fact.
 
@BhargavRao That's another miscaraterization.
 
@BhargavRao IMO [python-list] would be a useful tag for questions specifically about the Python list API and its semantics, as would [swift-array] and C++ [vector]
 
7:52 PM
@Braiam I personally wouldn't find it helpful, but others might. That's why we discuss burnination on Meta.
 
@AdrianMole I find a single tag for a function to be preposterous.
@BhargavRao One vs 3? Really?
Are you capable of going that low?
That's not how a moderator should behave
 
There are more, that's just the one I found.
 
@Braiam it's not about numbers
 
7:54 PM
@Braiam Depends on the function. The 'printf' syntax is a common cause of problems.
 
@NobodyNada "I'm sure that no one on meta would agree [with you]"
Those post are demonstration that people on meta agree with me.
Never and always shouldn't be used. Even I recognize the need of agnostic tags* meta.stackoverflow.com/a/300700/792066
* with limits
@AdrianMole Yeah, but it's that universal that printf would be implemented the same way in any language?
 
Cool, I can change that statement to "I'm sure most on meta would not agree to that fact". It doesn't change the underlying meaning in any case.
 
@BhargavRao It does, in fact. Claiming that such broad statement is universal truth when actually isn't.
I'm not even that preposterous of saying that.
 
8:33 PM
Is the tag really on-topic for SO?
 
How come? It’s formulas for Excel. That’s not programming, is it?
Couldn’t that whole tag rather be moved to a site like Math.SE (I doubt the on-topicness there), or another one?
 
@Andreas Excel formulas are just VB, aren't they?
 
@NobodyNada I don’t think so, and it doesn’t seem that way. Is it VB?
 
Excel formulas are considered programming. You are coding logic to transform one thing into another, which is the essance of programing.
 
8:41 PM
@Andreas IMO, it depends on how complex the formula is. Once you start getting into IF statements, you edge into program flow, which is programming. I agree that just = A1 + B2 by itself isn't programming, but the aggregate of either more complex "formulas" or multiple interrelated formulas can, definitely, be programming.
 
It’s just that most of the questions flowing in tagged with Excel formula don’t really seem to have much programming in them, and a lot are just asking for a simple one-line formula, etc.
 
one could make an argument that SQL is "less programming" than Excel formulas
@Andreas Those should be downvoted due to lack of research effort, but if they're answerable and really that simple they're probably not closable
 
It's a misconception that simple Questions are off-topic
 
@NathanOliver Reminds me Meta is a nice place to search first. Also; I’m one of those that don’t count HTML and CSS as programming, but I’ve always seen those as on-topic on SO. Probably because they’re so related to web programming/JS.
@Scratte That’s not what I meant.
Some of my skepticism probably has to do with what the formulas go into: an «office» program. Likewisd, I’d really scratch my head if I saw a question about MIT Scratch, though that is programming, but a very limited one.
 
8:48 PM
@Andreas
 
- but yeah, I think most of the Excel formula questions I see warrant a downvote.
@NobodyNada Oh, no. My head needs scratching.
Funny thing: the first question needs to be closed.
 
@Andreas I see that as more of a moderation issue. I bet there are a lot of duplicates, it just doesn't have enough people willing to moderate it to keep the tag from looking like a dumpster fire. It's like the regex tag. Almost every question I see in there when I do see is I need a regex to do foo. Give me that please
 
@NathanOliver And someone always does.
 
Gota get those imaginary unicorn points
 
It sure does look like a dumpster fire. I’ve tried to do some cleanup the few times I come across the tag, but it’s just too much.
 
8:51 PM
I answered one once.. my answer was deleted along with the Question :D
 
I guess you should’ve flagged it instead, then...
 
First it was closed, then it was reopened.. then I answered it. Then it got closed again.. and eventually deleted.
 
So fun.
 
It's been a while, so I can't even reach it from my recent deleted posts anymore.
 
@Andreas You could always post a meta for a tag cleanup effort. The issue I have with those is after they are done, usually the tag just goes back to collecting garbage and and after a while, you're back in the same boat. At least you can use it as a known tag to go to to spend any close votes you want to get rid of ;)
 
8:56 PM
@Scratte just get to 10K so you can search your own deleted posts .... ;)
 
@rene I heard about that feature. I'm trying to not get to 2K already though :)
 
@NathanOliver Maybe I should just suggest an edit on the tag info. It might help to put up a big, bold notice on it.
@NathanOliver Oh, and it would have to be close flags, not close votes. ;) :(
 
IIRC markdown doesn't work in tag notices
 
LARGE LETTERS DO.
 
They do, but really no one reads them. There are/were quite a few tags that start with DO NOT USE that get used all the time
 
9:00 PM
can mods blacklist tags, or only CMs?
 
@Andreas No, it doesn't. I reviewed a Question with despite the CAPS today, and it really wasn't code that would cause one such.
 
@NobodyNada Blacklists are a CM thing. They're kinda backlogged tho
 
Some people obviously don’t read the descriptions, but some do.
 
Is this off-topic?
Seems to want info about updating Xcode?
 
9:06 PM
@Machavity Not anymore. Only devs according to Cody.
Shog was the only with dev access of the CM's. Again, according to Cody.
 
Could be. I know Shog9 was the only one who visibly did them
 
@AdrianMole Nice title..
 
He blurred a lot of lines. It's probably why rene liked him so much
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@AdrianMole I'm willing to keep it. It is a tool primarially used for programming and it's about getting it set up to program with
 
Ron
o/
 
9:08 PM
@AdrianMole "software tools commonly used by programmers"
@Ron \o
 
@NathanOliver Maybe need a bit of editing/clean-up, though? There's a pending edit that I can't bypass.
 
@AdrianMole Pro tip: Use https://stackoverflow.com/posts/<post id>/edit and you can subvert the edit
 
or you could just "Improve Edit" or "Reject and Edit"
 
That too
That does assume you have reviews left though
 
@Scratte Nothing wrong with that. You’re welcome to visit Hell up here.
 
9:11 PM
@NobodyNada Not for another 10.5 hours - I'm on Review Vacation. :-)
 
I would have rejected that edit. I didn't even remove the problem in the title, nor the "hi". It even kept "hi guys".. ?!?
 
@Machavity I can't see what you did there.
 
Hey! There’s no problem with swearing.
 
@Scratte yeah, I was on the fence about it. It removed the signature though, and I didn't really want to do a full edit myself
 
But it didn't make the post better.
 
9:13 PM
Even I would’ve rejected that edit.
 
@Scratte It got rid of the signature, which is a little bit better
 
@NobodyNada It's a suggested edit. It's different.. they get an impression that this is OK. It's not.
 
@Scratte Fair enough
 
But just to be clear: I did not check who the reviewers were before I started ranting :)
 
Ron
9:30 PM
@halfer Sup?
 
9:46 PM
@desertnaut I think you should reread the question. That’s programming related, though not very well explained. Seems more than off-topic for broadness.
 
@Andreas seems more mathematical/statistical. if programming, which language(s)?
 
@Ron 'ello, haven't seen you in here in a while! I am OK - kicking the tyres fairly gently on a job hunt.
 
@DanielWiddis It’s language-agnostic. Neural networks related. - But yes, maybe I also misread the meaning of «optimization», reading it a 4th time.
 
How does a homework question with no documented attempt get 50 upvotes?
 
9:49 PM
@DavidBuck 50 others had the same homework problem.
@DanielWiddis But by all means; close the question. It’s off-topic.
 
@Andreas 9000 others judging by the number of views
 
@Andreas I agree it should be closed. Was going to do a dupe search first. But working.
@Andreas LIke this python-specific one
different one for R. Voted needs more focus.
 
@DavidBuck It did have a documented attempt. He said he used list.count(), and I know python. It seems as if he iterated through the list using list.count(). Maybe that's why?
It could be better, though.
 
@10Rep I know but normally without the code, people would ask for it. For a homework question (as was noted in a heavily upvoted comment) without a documented attempt it would be closed as Needs Focus, with working but slow code, POB. Just seems anomolous.
 
@DavidBuck It does seem suspicious. I would probably mod flag it. They have access to more data than me.
 
@10Rep Oh? I have moderator flags like that declined for being «lazy».
 
@Andreas nope, I would insist
 
@10Rep I voted to close it as "Needs details or clarity", since there is no question there.
 
@desertnaut That the question is not about programming?
 
@Andreas Well, for me one of them was accepted.
 
10:40 PM
@Andreas yes. not a language tag, either
 
@desertnaut It's about machine learning, which is related to programming.
I would close it as Needs more details.
 
That I agree with.
- or «too broad».
 
machine learning questions can be related to programming, but they are not always, and they are not by default
@10Rep well, it was among the suggested reasons...
 
True. In the end, the post is closed. Doesn't matter why :)
 
apparently it was closed as "needs focus"
 
11:01 PM
@Georgy It needs an edit in my opinion
 
@10Rep if you take a look at the Metasmoke search results for that phrase you'll see why it flagged that. Doesn't apply to this user, that was just a coincidence of usernames.
 
@RyanM Oh, ok.
 
@Georgy I rewrote the question, but someone should test the answers to see if they need to be downvoted. They are really not explaining anything.
I had to Google the topic myself to understand because the answers are so bad at explaining.
 
@Georgy Huh? Seems (perfectly (after Dharman’s rewrite)) understandable to me.
 
11:18 PM
@Georgy It seems perfectly fine. Needed a little editing, but otherwise fine.
 
Ok, I have downvoted the answers and left comments. I edited question and an answer.
I feel like this is an outright dupe, but I don't think I will be able to find the right one.
 
@Dharman But what if OP will come back and say that the edit changed the meaning of the question? Btw, all answers except one produce the output that you included in the edit.
This answer will give [0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4] on the other hand.
 
@Georgy Btw, all answers except one produce the output that you included in the edit. Which is good. It makes the question clearer. But what if OP will come back and say that the edit changed the meaning of the question? It really didn't. He just added more expected output, and rephrased the question better.
 
@Georgy Then OP should clarify it themselves. I understood the question and I made an improvement confident that the way I understood the question is what OP meant.
@Georgy I already downvoted it for lacking explanation, but if you think that it is not useful you can also downvote. Seeing that there are no downvotes at all and people want to close the question as unclear sends mixed signals to me.
Either 6 people understood the question and they provided useful information clearly explaining how the problem could be tackled or they posted low-quality guesses hunting for meaningless points.
 
I feel people assumed the question included what Dharman edited to include.
 
11:34 PM
If that is not the problem OP tried to solve they can even ask another question, this time explaining the problem differently, hopefully learning from past mistakes.
 
@Dharman Sounds good. I'm retracting my close vote. In the current state, I feel, the question and the answers could be useful for future visitors. Thanks for your input!
@rene Could you, please, remove my last cv-pls request?
 
The first thing we should always do is try to salvage the question, especially if it has helpful answers. If there is no possible way we can turn it into usable information then we can consider closing and deleting.
 
@RyanM If you don't mind me asking, I noticed you changed the profile picture again. Why?
 
It wasn't colourful enough.
 
@10Rep I was persuaded to stick with something closer to the original identicon and that's more visually distinctive :-)
this is actually the same pattern as the identicon, but with colors
 
11:40 PM
@RyanM Yea, I like this better. I can differentiate Dharman and you now.
 
I'm less than 100% sold on it in dark mode, but it looks very nice in light mode
 
@RyanM Not sure what you were going for here, but now it looks like you are temporarily supporting LGBTQ movement.
 
if only transparent avatars were rendered on a dark background in dark mode...
 
@Georgy it is easier if you also link me to your actual cv-pls. Now I guessed this was the right one.
 
@Dharman Haha...more permanent support, really :-) it is intentionally the pride colors. It was originally going to be the exact pride colors, but they didn't look good in the image (green/blue/purple were too dark).
 
11:43 PM
@rene Got it!
 
@TylerH @oguzismail Actually, for cv-pls the order of the links doesn't matter to the scripts, but it does matter to humans (i.e. make it crystal clear what you are wanting). For cv-pls if there is a question linked which is the dup-target of a closed question which is also linked, then the dup-target is ignored when considering if the request is complete.
However, for del-pls, undel-pls, and reopen-pls requests, it is assumed that every post linked in the chat message should be acted upon. Those requests should contain links to no posts other than the ones which you want deleted, undeleted, or reopened.
 
It's not what I was going for. I only wanted to have a colourful, happy checkerboard for an avatar
 
Yeah, yours is clearly different. Are the colors random or chosen deliberately?
 
They are deliberately chosen at random. There's no steganography here.
 

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