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2:03 PM
@CodyGray I may have missed it but I don't recall ever seeing any significant pushback from a moderator, only mods and CMs saying that's how it is used.
 
FWIW, my last request had the result that OP deleted the question and posted it to the correct site Data Science SE (and already got an upvote) datascience.stackexchange.com/questions/78542/…
Hopefully this will be a lesson learned for the future
 
@TylerH I doubt CM do this since all SE sites side with answers being evaluated in the context of the question.
SO is the only one with that interpretation.
 
Well, it was Shog, so I dunno what to tell you shrug
 
Shog always said to evaluate answers in the context of the question ;)
Read the comments on apples.
 
2:21 PM
@TylerH Didn't know, thanks
 
@Braiam He said a lot of things
most of which I agree with :-)
 
Look for the one that speaks about oranges @TylerH
 
I've read it quite a few times
 
Oranges aren't apples, and answers to a question isn't asked is not an answer.
 
All I know is Shog and mods on MSO were saying NAA flags are for things that aren't an answer to any question, and I recommended the dialogue in the modal be updated to reflect that since it would be a 5 second change, and Shog agreed/said yeah that's a good idea/whatever, and then it never happened
 
2:27 PM
Since you don't believe me, lets go to the horse mouth:
> This was posted as an answer, but it does not address the problem being asked about. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether.
 
I feel like you're responding to something that isn't being said
 
@TylerH because you accept the status quo as set on stone. I don't.
 
I don't accept it as set it stone, I'm just saying that's the outcome the last time it was widely discussed
 
@desertnaut that’s a win
3
SE should have a badge for that
 
yeah, sounds like (that's why I wanted to share it). And they do not come often...
(the wins, not the badges :)
 
2:33 PM
Again, that was not the outcome of the discussion. The outcome was "you are all wrong, stap it" from the mods to the community that pointed out the ridiculousness of the situation. You have Cody, Cajita, Shog, etc. pointing out that answers should address the question asked and context is necessary to evaluate whenever to delete a content posted as answer.
 
we all need some inspiration
 
SO moderators decided to ignore all the above, and probably CM's didn't want to get confrontational about it.
Which is why still to this day we get questions asking why NAA flags gets declined. In the mind of the users it makes no sense.
 
speaking of inspiration, it occurs to me that I’ve never seen Glengarry Glen Ross alluded to here
the “closers” idea
 
???
 
“coffee is for closers” and that whole Alec Baldwin monologue
 
2:37 PM
have not a clue! pls enlighten me
 
@desertnaut in that play (film) a character uses the term “closers” to refer basically to the subset of people who get the job done
 
sounds appropriate :)
 
I like closers.
 
yeah I like it too
 
I like openers
 
2:39 PM
can openers, too!
 
openers pose the issue, closers.. well, close it
 
Are you speaking of the doorman's job?
 
Am I right to assume that this isn't about programming?
 
@Scratte yes
 
2:42 PM
@Scratte Correct. I'm not sure if it's a Server Fault target or Super User.
 
@Braiam I see that more as a function of people not knowing how to use the flags in the first place. I've seen people NAA answers just because they didn't like it
 
@Scratte Oh! That was some swift SOCVR action..
 
@Machavity I've definitely voted NAA for answers I thought were wrong. I've learned my lesson since.
 
@Vega who, me or @Scratte??
 
That's a large dump.
 
2:48 PM
@E_net4isfriendly I misread it as "core dump" and that piqued my interest
 
@AndrasDeak Have UB'een naughty lately? :)
 
@desertnaut I'm confused. Am I involved in something?
 
@desertnaut It was a group conversation about closers, openers... I thought could fit for a doorman job description :D
 
@Machavity If you ask me for apples, am I addressing your need giving you oranges? No. Don't confuse wrong answers with non answers.
 
Ohhh!.. Vega changed their profile picture! To the real Vega :)
 
2:50 PM
Oops
 
dot
 
@Scratte in a discussion about closers, you (bravely!) stated that you like openers, and now... you are wondering if you are involved??
 
From far a dot, a blue dot
 
@desertnaut I was confused because I didn't see Vega in the conversation. I was looking for a pretty girl, not a superstar :)
 
2:52 PM
i am here
:D
 
well, now you get a pretty star!
 
@Braiam Oh, I decline them if they look like decent attempts at an answer
 
@Vega before becoming the desertnaut, I fancied using Altair as an alias
then I spend a year in the Sahara, and I forgot everything else :D
 
@Machavity Seems like you missed my point...
 
No, I got it
 
3:01 PM
@Machavity Err, but it is still correct to flag NAA when an answer absolutely does not match a question, right? Like when OP asks about Makefiles (apple), and the answer tells them a way to sort an array with jQuery (orange)?
This discussion is getting a bit confusing
 
@Machavity If you did, you wouldn't decline flags about answers not addressing the question asked.
 
Are this kind of review audits automatically generated by the Community account by squashing random words in random places?
 
@MarcoBonelli Yes, I encounter these frequently
 
@janw Was that ever NAA? I thought it was an answer even when a different language than the OP asked for
 
It's like I answer 42 to a question asking how to get a rocket to the moon. They have nothing to do with each other.
 
3:02 PM
They are just too funny
 
@MarcoBonelli Awesome edit.. :)
 
I remember the first time I got one of these, I was really confused. Then I learned what review audits are.
 
@janw The key is that it has to be obvious it's not trying to answer. A JQ answer to a Makefile would probably stand out. But if someone made a C# answer to a C++ question not so much
 
Isn't this trivial enough to close as a typo?
 
@JeanneDark The problem with those is that one meta FAQ says it's NAA, but you're likely to get your flag declined. So if you care for your spotless record, don't flag them :)
 
3:04 PM
When in doubt, mod flags are just as effective, but you can offer context
 
@Scratte That's why I flag the only really obvious cases
 
@JeanneDark Stick with that :) I learned too late, and my record is tainted.
 
@Machavity Ok, this makes sense. Maybe this should be reflected in the FAQ post, as people may have different understandings of what is an orange
 
@oguzismail doesn't really look like a typo to me.
The asker did not understand how bash loops and pipes interact together
 
@janw Forget about the orange. There are no oranges. The orange is just confusing, it's an eaten apple in disguise.
 
@desertnaut Wow, that's incredible. I think I would forget everything, too! But both are very intriguing names :)
 
@MarcoBonelli Too bad I don't have a duplicate target for that then :/
 
@janw I think the better analogy here is Undo's expanded chart. Sometimes people NAA green apples because they wanted red. Those do not stand out at all
 
@oguzismail yeah that's unfortunate, I can easily find one for the opposite case (giving a bash while input from a pipe)
 
@Machavity Yeah that is a great post. I am using it for reference whenever I review LQP. The only problem sometimes is telling apart green apples and oranges...but in the rare case where I encounter a post with a not-so-obvious orange-ness, I will just mod flag and give context.
 
3:18 PM
And that's spot-on. Mod flags are slower but more reliable. Mods won't spend a ton of time trying to figure out if a NAA flag is valid. It's easier to decline or ignore it
 
@E_net4isfriendly I think it's funny that the "Thanks to all of those who didn't down vote/freeze my question" is probably what caused that question to get closed.
 
@VLAZ The irony is real. Enjoy it the best you can.
 
3:31 PM
I usually Skip a post that's been deleted while I'm reviewing it. I assumed that I would get an error if picking "No actions needed". Since it's deleted no interaction of the post is possible, so there's noway to get the "I'm done" to activate. So, just now I tried "No actions needed".. and it counts it. But.. why is that even possible? refrence
 
One could argue that no action is needed because it's already deleted, but I still find it very odd.
 
@Scratte Well, what actions would you expect to be able to perform on a deleted post?
 
@Machavity None.. I would expect "No actions needed" to tell me I have to Skip it since it's gone. I assume that if the author un-deletes it, it should go back into the queue
So would it go back in the queue if I hadn't pressed that button?
 
I would assume it wouldn't (it's deleted after all) but it takes the cache a bit to catch up
Can always ask on Meta, but it's a free review
 
3:38 PM
So, that's a way to get around the system then? Create a bad question, then after about 15 minutes: delete it. Then undelete it.
@Machavity It's off topic. It should have been flagged. But of course my flag would have gone with it. So I guess the result is the same.
 
I dunno if it gets around anything. Once it's undeleted, you kinda want people to notice it or it gets no answers. But you've just wasted the prime time to get an answer too
 
I see. So the idea is probably that once it's undeleted, someone will flag it or close vote it anyway..
 
3:54 PM
@Scratte Or it just fades into obscurity, where the Roomba eventually gets it
 
I like Roomba :)
6
 
4:18 PM
 
Another (small) victory, where the OP of this (now deleted) post have found the correct place for their question in Software Recommendations SE: softwarerecs.stackexchange.com/questions/75564/… cc @sideshowbarker
 
If only softwarerecs were more active... All my questions there have gone unanswered (although I only have two)
 
@S.S.Anne Frankly I'm surprised it isn't one of the most active sites
 
@desertnaut 🍻
 
Judging from all the software recommendation questions that get asked on SO
 
4:27 PM
Because they don't know about it! We don't even have it in the possible migration sites...
 
as shown by
> Ok, thank you... I didn't know that was a thing
 
Yeah, I would reallllly love to see that list of suggested migration sites updated
we haven't needed TeX sites on that list for like 7 years at least
3
 
@TylerH join the club
 
Review > Late Answers
https://stackoverflow.com/review/late-answers/26820695
I have upvote comment:
"This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review –"
My purpose is to support a comment and comment is correct, at that same time answer closed,
was my action was wrong? Because of this my review process was suspended.
 
also with screen size today there's really no problem with putting another 5 sites on that list, or better yet making it a search field like the duplicate search box for flag/closing
so you can just pick from any given site
 
4:30 PM
@turivishal Can you clarify? Answers can't be closed
 
@turivishal This isn't really the right place to ask that. I would recommend asking on Meta, but I will say you are never review banned for one failed review audit.
@Braiam I think he means deleted
 
@TylerH migrations are not necessarily that straightforward though. Careful inspection shows that OP put significantly more effort in their question there (hopefully I was convincing in my comment) as compared to the SO version
 
@desertnaut Sure, the process is more complicated, but I don't think that should prevent the list from being significantly more usable
 
Closed means removed.
 
@turivishal Why didn't you flag the answer?
 
4:32 PM
@turivishal Deleted means removed. Closed is only applicable to questions.
 
Because some one is already flaged and i support that comment.
 
The appropriate action would be to flag
that automatically adds an upvote
 
@TylerH it's the 2nd time today that this happens to questions I have handled (1st one went to Data Science SE, where it actually belonged).
 
But you can never be sure that someone else flagged it. You should flag it yourself too
 
@turivishal upvoting a comment is not a review action
 
4:32 PM
and Data Science SE is not in the list, either
 
@rene It is in FP and LA
 
I see
 
It must have already been in LQP for have the "From Review" comment. I'd already flagged it as NAA.
 
@S.S.Anne No. Not on review comments on Answers. That's on duplicate comments on Questions when flagging with the same duplicate target.
 
ah, oops
 
4:40 PM
@rene I wouldn't call it a proper action, but it does activate the "I'm Done" button.
 
We are talking about late answers review queue, any action is a review action. Known-bad audits can be passed with downvotes and flags, known good with any other action. In this case, it was a known bad audit, so flag or downvote should pass you @turivishal
 
I've tried to look at the review, and I can't see it's an audit :( It just says "Review completed". Normally it says "Review failed" or "Review Passed"
 
@Braiam Thanks for reply i understood.
 
@Scratte Yes, NAA, Not an audit
 
@DavidBuck So why is everyone talking about this as an audit?
@turivishal How long is your suspension?
 
4:45 PM
Should this question be closed? stackoverflow.com/q/61595582/1839439
 
@Scratte Moderators apply the same methodology
 
@Braiam That's not really answering why everyone is talking about this as if it's an audit. If it's not, why confuse the terms?
 
@Scratte till 2nd October :(
 
@turivishal Ok. Can you go in this room?
 
Roomba will not pick up that question right?
 
4:48 PM
@Scratte Because whenever or not is an audit, the teaching stands, the user should have flagged or downvoted.
 
Not with NAA's. I do not think just dowvoting gets you a pass from a moderator.
 
@Dharman If you mean the question you asked about above, with no answers and a score of -2 it will be deleted after 30 days (RemoveDeadQuestions).
 
@JeanneDark It's got bounty. I don't think roomba picks them up
 
@Dharman It may prolong it. (and it could get an answer that's then upvoted...)
Also, the DVs came today and that's why Roomba didn't pick it up before
 
What is the tag for?
 
4:57 PM
@Dharman It's where we keep Santa. shh
 
Is the name of close voters visible to the post owner? The star board says no, but the message says yes.
 
@Braiam If they know how to find it (timeline, edit history)
 
(Viewable by the post author and users with the close/reopen votes privilege)
Timeline shows everything to non-logged in users.
 
@Dharman Pronounced 'close' in French, maybe for questions to be closed? :p
 
5:04 PM
^^ received an upvote
 
@Dharman Only thing I'm familiar with is the "WHERE" clause in SQL
but there is a tag.
 
@DanielWiddis It doesn't seem to be used that way, though. And we have the tag for where clause already
 
well, I don't touch Haskell
Also associated with if-then statements
so probably a synonym of
 
@DanielWiddis is this in the context of Haskell?
If so, know that in Haskell, where is applied unconditionally.
 
I have no idea about haskell. I'm just observing that the word can apply to if-then, or filtering on a condition context.
 
5:15 PM
@DanielWiddis the quality of those code block diagrams in the answer of that Haskell question OMG
 
Oops..
 
@Vega Nice new avatar, BTW. :)
 
Meh, the exist because someone typed :space:
 
@Braiam Back in 2008 :D The earliest use of clause I could find.
 
That would be around 250 people mistyping it. But many of these question don't have WHERE tag
 
5:21 PM
^ I went with opinion-based.
 
@AlonEitan You are welcome to repost this request without the editorializing.
 
Thanks @Makyen
 
@Dharman not necessarily, the system also suggests tags. And people could be typing in the title of their question.
 
Now, if only there was a tool that would replace [clause] with [where-clause] everywhere...
 
5:29 PM
Martijn may have a script for that - but it's likely to bring down the whole site! ;-)
 
Ugh, y'all are too new
There is a tool
Grrrr
 
OK - Humour! Moderators should forewarn us when making jokes.
 
@BhargavRao Ok, but we can't really merge this with
 
I think some of the Questions are not about where-clauses
 
They aren't.
 
5:32 PM
@AdrianMole Thank you :)
 
@Dharman there's a CM (now dev) tool that can look at posts which have [where] and [clause] in them and add [where-clause]
 
If we can't find a use for it then I guess someone should write a Meta post and ask for burnination
 
@Scratte Good case - continue isn't a clause there, is it?
 
@AdrianMole It is in PL/SQL
 
5:34 PM
I am not sure, what it was referring to, which is why I asked here. Maybe it has something to do with prolog and people misuse it.
 
@DanielWiddis That link refers to the continue statement.
 
probably doesn't have a good reason to exist because of the different interpretations of the term "clause"
 
Is there an escape character for ] in markdown?
 
@AdrianMole huh, I swear I saw "continue when clause" somewhere. Oh well.
 
5:36 PM
[I think so](xyz)
@Scratte \ works
 
@MarcoBonelli Thank you :) Fixed it now :)
 
@BhargavRao Well, that doesn't solve the problem, just the ones where we are confident enough to say that both tags are probably the same.
BTW, questions that don't say "where" or "clause" stackoverflow.com/search?q=%5Bclause%5D+is%3Aq+-clause+-where
 
This wiki article about clause in logic seems to align with the examples of it being used as a conditional "if this is true, X" context.
 
Heh.. or one could use all three just to be sure: stackoverflow.com/questions/52854965/…
 
It's all about the subtle difference between a cat and a comma.
 
5:40 PM
@Braiam yes, we clean those posts that aren't about them and then ask for the CMs to run that script.
Anyway now it's not possible, as none of the current CMs have access to the tool :(
 
@AdrianMole ..a pause at the end of a clause :D
 
I wonder if I should be removing tags like or when I edit posts. For me they do not convey any meaning, but maybe they have a reason to be. e.g. stackoverflow.com/questions/54824110/…
 
@Dharman Those tags don't even have usage. Do you really believe that they convey meaning?
 
I don't really see the reason for them, but I can't be sure about every tag. If there is a tag usage then I can figure out if the tag is relevant or not. e.g. xcode tag in a question not about IDE.
But if I see tags I have never seen before I would first need to do research to understand their purpose and whether I can remove them. They could be important
 
@Dharman If you can't be sure, that's enough in my books to remove it ;)
Tags are supposed to be unambiguous, the fact that they fail at that basic test means that the tag isn't proper on the question.
 
5:53 PM
You and I differ. I don't remove tags so easily. I believe tags help to describe questions.
 
A clause in Prolog is a unit of information cse.unsw.edu.au/~billw/dictionaries/prolog/clause.html
 
@Dharman clause? Probably. Certainly any instances should be removed and/or replaced with .
 
@Dharman relevance doesn't fit there. The tag seems to be different from their usage of a calculated weight average or sum of some sort.
 
@Braiam and only 4 questions that have the 'clause' tag that don't have the 'where' tag. stackoverflow.com/…
 
@Vega Yeah, that's not enough to warrant a tag.
 
5:56 PM
funnily enough they all have 'where-clause' already
 
@TylerH Because I've been editing them :D
 
Gonna go ahead and just remove clause from those 4...
oh, I see some enterprising moderator has already handled :-D
 
@Braiam I must disagree. It's like statements, it's a thing in prolog
 
@Dharman Or maybe it does. I'm confused now.
 
@TylerH Where has been a synonym of where-clause for a long time now.
 
5:59 PM
@Vega Ok, lets put it another way: would a question about clauses in prolog be answered if I only include the ?
 
@Dharman didn't we just see this morning questions with and ? Am I going crazy?
 
@Braiam What do you think of stackoverflow.com/q/10364202/5468463?
 
@TylerH When you add a synonym it doesn't remove the tag. You are thinking of tag merger
 
@Vega If I were asking a prolog question, the only tag I need to reach people capable of answering them should be
 
@Dharman I thought it did remove the tag (specifically it replaced the tag with the synonymized tag)
 
6:02 PM
Remember, tags should cover a "new topic that nobody else has asked about before on this site"
 
@Braiam Tags help us group questions not only by the language but also by ideas and technologies. Sometimes they even represent a single statement or function
 
@Dharman No, that's keywords. Search engines already do that.
 
@Braiam Then here just keep mysql? stackoverflow.com/q/245180/5468463
 
@TylerH Only if you edit the question. It doesn't do it automatically. There's still plenty of questions tagged HTML6 and CSS3
 
@Vega I think I answered that question ;D
 
6:03 PM
Then why do we need where-clause, or limit tags?
In your opinion we should burninante all of these tags?
I can't agree with this.
 
@Braiam Tags help in Google research. It keeps the titles neat. They are for something. And I am usually for tags limitation :/
 
I think removing relevant tags is vandalism and it hurts questions.
 
^ agree
 
@Vega For that to be correct, google would need to have a crappy index engine.
Remember that Google predates SO by several years.
Google is already used to index raw html up to 50k characters (I think?).
 
We are not talking about Google.
 
6:09 PM
If the keyword is included anywhere that character limit, I am certain that google would index it.
@Dharman Vega is.
 
I'm sorry but we can't just remove tags just because one language tag is "enough". It's not.
 
Tags are on Stack Overflow so we can watch and follow them
 
@Dharman I don't believe we need either.
 
They help us search on SO for the relevant information
 
But I battle a war at a tiem.
@Dharman Use a search engine...
SO elasticsearch instance is good enough for keywords.
 
6:10 PM
It's not
 
Why use a search engine? If I want to know when a new java-modules question come in?
2
 
Then use google.
@Scratte You sure? You are so focused in a specific aspect of an entire language?
 
YES
 
That would severally limit your ability to answer questions.
 
Which is why I have so low rep
 
6:11 PM
Yes, of course I am! I do not care for JavaFX, so I don't want to see those.
 
I follow tags that are only relevant to a tiny PHP functions
 
If you don't know order of operations, what ends a statements, how to do string manipulation, etc.
 
one question per month
I still watch it and maintain the tag
 
@Braiam And I like that! Because I do not want to see some Java Questions at all..
 
I care about it because it is useful to me, even if it is the third tag in the question
 
6:12 PM
BTW, and let me repeat: I'm not a programmer!
I'm a very bad system administrator that sometimes had to write code to solve problems.
And also a researcher.
The usage of tags that you seek to apply would be equivalent to keywords on academia.
While SO tries to use tags as categories.
 
We should only remove tags that are irrelevant to the question or ones that harm it.
 
It's relevant because the "Watch Tag" and "Ignore Tag" relies on.. Tags.
 
@Braiam That's an other question. I was telling that for the search, if there is no tag, people put it in the title and it gives all kind of aberrations
 
@Braiam you mean it's a terrible chore to come up with them, they are arbitrary and serve little practical purpose? :P
 
@AndrasDeak Yep.
We use google schoolar or any other search engine.
 
6:15 PM
google scholar is terrible
 
@AndrasDeak It nails down the citations :D
 
I couldn't get it to assign papers to myself and reject others by people with the same name. Which should be its basic functionality.
@Braiam aren't there a bunch of false positives? It's been a while since I last checked...
 
@AndrasDeak Use an orchidid or however is called nowadays.
 
ORCID, and yeah, I have one
the fact that there are other usable services doesn't contradict that google scholar is useless :P
 
I thought we wanted to make Stack Overflow better, not make users go out of their way to find Questions to Answer.
 
6:17 PM
@AndrasDeak The problem is that I don't remember where should be what in APA :D
@Scratte It is better, for questioners and answerers :D
 
@Braiam I don't know what that is
 
@AndrasDeak The rules by the Association of Physiology for citations?
 
@Braiam You seem to be the only one who thinks so. Everyone else is finding use of specialized tags.
 
@Braiam ah
 
@Scratte Nope. In fact if we follow the logic we would have many more tags.
Just that they wouldn't be ambiguous.
 
6:22 PM
I'm not interested in going to google to get notified of a new question that has my interest. I'd have to search for java-module in the body of the post as well. And any variation. Why would you make me do that when there's a use for tag and I can just add it to my watch-list here?
 
@tripleee It has just been edited with MCVE
 
@eyllanesc I went with typo, but I guess it doesn't matter
 
@Scratte Ok, lets do an experiment, you said that you are interested in java-modules. Lets see...
There are over 3k questions about java modules stackoverflow.com/…
Actually, 1.8k because I failed to include the tag. :(
Compare that with only 500 that use the java-module tag... you are limiting the pool of potential questions you can answer.
 
6:45 PM
@Braiam I do not want all those. I just want the ones where the asker knows that it's about java-module and adds the tags. Most of those Questions are unrelated to the module problems.
 
@Braiam Why is it even bad that I limit the pool of Questions I want to answer?
This one is not about java-modules at all. It's about IDE modules and Gradle modules.
Most of them are actually about android, Gradle, Spring or something else, that I don't fancy right now.
But.. I did find another tag, that is almost identical to java-module, so thank you for that :)
 

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