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21:00
@Enijar Thanks, Enijar
@Scratte I haven't tried most of my answers, and people still mark 'em correct :-) I do try the ones that I'm not confident in - with many, the answer/mistake is obvious, and I don't need to bother building up enough of a reproducible example to answer it. Of course, this backfires when it turns out they also had a different problem than the one I found...("now it's crashing in a different place" ...well, then, it sounds like I fixed your problem and now you have a new problem...)
@Dharman the now-last paragraph is remove-worthy fluff as well, FWIW
@TylerH I think I removed everything
Not sure why I tend to read posts from the bottom to the top...
@RyanM I know a lot of users do this. I cannot. I find it to be lacking.. quality control.
the first two paragraphs really could have been ~two sentences, but that's way more editing work...
21:09
But I also am not kind to posts that have errors on them. Where they obviously did not try it.. and it only takes 1 minute to try it, so why not?
@TylerH This would be better suited at security.se
@Scratte Consider this one, for instance. It was basically a "go look this up in the documentation" request. I could have confirmed that the documentation was correct, but that seems unnecessary... Or this one, which I know is correct because I got the answer from one of the Android framework engineers who works in that area. Or this one, which is basically a knowledge dump.
Has anyone else's comments made on Meta Stack Overflow started showing through on their Stack Overflow comments page (i.e. https://stackoverflow.com/users/472495/halfer?tab=activity&sort=comments)? I might write up a bug for Meta, but I imagine it would already have been discussed.
@10Rep if you're still editing those untagged questions, please note the guidance I left in the Untagged clean-up chatroom (pinging you here as you're not pingable in the other room)
Also, many of my answers are "no, that's not possible," which is hard to prove by testing
21:15
@halfer No
@RyanM hard, but not impossible...
@Dharman Thanks, I will report it. I have had a few Meta comment replies come through to my Stack Overflow responses tab too...
@RyanM Those are a little different. I almost never answer those types of Questions, because the risk of getting it ever so slightly wrong is too high for me.
21:36
I'm reading this as unnecessary self-promotion on an otherwise valid answer rather than spam. Anyone disagree with just editing out the first and last paragraphs?
That looks like taglines..
@DavidBuck 100% agree, and remind the user not to add those as well...
@DavidBuck It looks like spam and it was probably intended to be spam. If you think both answers have some value then we can remove the spam and post a comment.
yeah, the answer doesn't really answer the question, which doesn't have enough details to be answered, so in addition to fixing the answer, we should close the question.
@RyanM Then why fix the answer, spam flag instead
21:41
We should be careful not to target a user here.
We can go to Charcoal HQ though....
@Dharman ehh, I think it's borderline enough to not warrant a red flag
it contains substantial non-spam content that attempts to give an outline of how one would maybe troubleshoot
Three links to their website and an email address - that's not accidental plugging.
@IanCampbell I was careful to target an answer, not a user
I agree, and was not directing the comment at you
This count as recruitment and therefore spam? stackoverflow.com/questions/62904410/…
21:54
I think R/A fits best? The post abuses the system in an attempt to recruit.
Could just be a hapless user.
meh, it's borderline but I'm not quite sure it's red-flaggable. The user wants 1-on-1 some sort of 1-on-1 tutoring/helpdesk service
Closed and will Roomba.
^ It's definitely deletable
Is there an "Almost Spam" flag?
21:57
If the post is deleted is my R/A flag marked as helpful? =)
@AdrianMole I dread to think what "something that's not up to the standards of spam" would be.
@IanCampbell Yes, and the post content is hidden from 10k users. None of the other red-flag effects occur.
@Enijar The duplicate closure on this was correct. I don't think it was opinion-based in any way.
@Enijar How is it opinion based?
22:01
@RyanM yes, you're right, but in my view they were essentially looking for an expansion on an already well-documented topic...
Questions about well-documented should be closed as duplicates, so that the poster gets their answer. This one could also be argued as "too broad" due to the questions about both the ternary and the anonymous function syntax.
@Enijar Opinion based questions are for example "Do you think JavaScript or TypeScript is better?"
@Dharman fair point. I worded that cv wrongly
No problem. People judge the reason themselves anyway, but it helps to understand why you think the question should be closed
22:17
@IanCampbell Your flag may remain pending if the post is deleted by the post author. If it's deleted by other means, then it will be marked helpful.
@Makyen If the post is deleted by anyone then the flag is marked helpful
R/A and spam flags are marked helpful by deletion.
@Dharman That was demonstrated to me as not true with some spam flags which were raised as autoflags within the last couple/few days. The post was definitely deleted by the OP and the flags were definitely not marked helpful. the flags were still listed as pending, but the <10k users could not retract.
@Makyen Were the flags marked "disputed" instead?
@AdrianMole At the times I looked, the listing still indicated them as pending.
22:20
@Makyen Maybe there is more to it than this. Or maybe I am getting confused with NAA flags.
Maybe that's one of those corner cases that needs a "Hapless Mod" to manually clear the flag.
@Dharman I assume that they are kept pending in order to prevent an OP from deleting to clear the flags and then undeleting.
@Makyen But isn't the post locked?
@Dharman No, it was deleted by the OP, not by 6 spam/R/A flags. It hadn't yet gotten 6.
@Dharman There's a character difference between that and the other one.
@Dharman No, it's a "thank you"
hmm.. never mind :)
@CodyGray It does introduce that quote, which in my opinion is wrong
What quote?
I guess Scratte saw the omitted comma at the end
23:09
LIKE '%s'
No.. I saw a % where the other one has a ,
It's your job to call out what you're changing and why. Otherwise, it's a "thank you" answer.
Deletion right away?
@Andreas Don't mind those.. it happens sometimes :)
23:13
It's from November of 2019. It's closed as a typo and the asker already has their answer. I see no point in leaving it to stick around. Do you?
@Scratte Cody's powerful wand.
@CodyGray Not at all.
Okay, then I won't have to try and figure out how to unwiggle my nose.
Is the suggested 'related post' for this question (in the Dude's comment) close enough for dupe closure? (Never mind - the Dude already hammered it.)
@CodyGray What is your opinion on raising automatic rude flag instead of NAA on these posts bot.dharman.net/search.php?type=latin ?
@Dharman Rude flags on posts that are not in English? Makes me uncomfortable.
23:18
I keep raising NAA on them, but I see they are removed as R/A by mods or community
...really? I presumed your motivation was just to get them gone faster, which I understand, but I don't think that's the correct or intended use of rude flags. Which ones were nuked as R/A?
@Dharman This one is not rude bot.dharman.net/reports.php?id=134528
@Dharman Are you flagging non-English answers as NAA? Those are meant to be flagged as VLQ.
@Andreas NAA and VLQ is the same
@Dharman Not really the same. Just handled very similarly by some mods.
23:20
@Dharman Two different flagging options to me?
Literally the same
@CodyGray This and this
Can you give me an example of an answer that is VLQ but not NAA? Or vice versa?
@CodyGray Foreign language answers.
How are they not NAA?
23:21
@CodyGray @Dharman Well; I just follow the guidelines: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/297673/…
They are attempts to answer the question, surely?
@AdrianMole ...are which one of those? They're definitely not an answers, since this is an English-only site, and the question was asked in English. And they're definitely of very low quality because, um, same reasons.
@Andreas You mean this guidance: "Answers written in non-English should be flagged as very low quality, although not an answer will also work." :-)
@AdrianMole How could I possibly know?
Apparently @Scratte reads Arabic. Ask him?
@CodyGray I guess "should be" must be of of very much importance to me.
23:22
@Dharman If it's a language that you understand, you may realize it is actually good - or would be if it were in English.
@AdrianMole But that doesn't matter, because it doesn't count as an answer by Stack Overflow's standards.
@AdrianMole Then why flag it? Translate instead if you know what it says
"If it were written in English, and it wasn't link-only, and it was actually relevant to the question, and it actually solved the problem, then it would be an answer!" No thanks.
OK! OK! I surrender. Just trying to be precise.
Well, I am kind of jesting, but I'm also totally serious. I'm very interested to hear if someone has a good example of an answer that would be VLQ but not NAA, or vice versa.
23:24
@CodyGray I used to flag some as VLQ where I was hoping OP would quickly come and edit the rest.
I think either would imply the other.
But that was not very useful.
@Dharman The first account was destroyed by a mod because they posted some other gibberish, too. The second was nuked by the community for reasons that are unclear to me.
@CodyGray Somebody asks for nonsense, and gets it?
@Andreas Those answers aren't flaggable, though
Just moderate the question, as that's the root cause
23:26
Some of those are very rude, some are attempts at answering.. what I tried to say is that they should be flagged as NAA. Unless you want to translate them yourself and make an accurate determination. I don't think something that's not rude should be red flagged, when it's not gibberish, but just foreign.
@CodyGray Actually, that second one was rude. In translation, it says "I think you are such a fool"
@Scratte Yeah, agreed. Even if they actually are rude when you translate them, I'm not sure that they're a good candidate for rude flags, since mods won't necessarily speak that language or bother to translate them.
But you may have flagged them as NAA and then found that they have been removed as rude. But that may have been because someone found out what was said in them and then flagged them as such.
Yeah, but I can't really know what it says until I translate it. The whole purpose of automatic flagging is to let it go into the queue without me reviewing it hours later
@CodyGray That is also a consideration, yes.
@CodyGray Machine translated? I've come across many examples of machine translations being blatantly wrong, flipping the meaning of the sentence. In this case, "fool" could be an incorrectly applied synonym, and the sentence could just mean: "I think you have misunderstood this a lot".
23:28
I'd rather just go with deleting them because they're not in English, rather than trying to figure out what is meant. There are too many subtleties in translation for non-native speakers.
Did you call me a fool, or did you just say that I made a foolish error? Hard to know.
@Andreas Exactly. See above. :-)
Ok, so what I hear is that I should keep on flagging NAA and let mods handle it as R/A if they think it is appropriate.
@Dharman That's what I'd do, yeah
Somewhat related: mods can destroy an account without needing to flag any of the user's posts as R/A
And we might, if for no other reason to give the person a fresh chance if they are a legitimate user
@Dharman Then autoflag them NAA..
If you want to make @Andreas happy, you can autoflag them as VLQ. But nobody else will care. :-)
@CodyGray That will make me very happy.
23:30
Does it matter if you flag them as NAA even if some of them are rude?
In all seriousness, there might be some slight advantage in flagging them as VLQ, if you could re-use the same code for autoflagging both questions and answers (since questions obviously cannot be flagged as NAA).
I would assume it's better than flagging them as rude, when some of them are not.
Isn't a user's e-mail banned when an account of theirs is taken down, or is that an optional action for those removing the accounts?
@Scratte It doesn't. If you really want to bring a non-English answer that is rude to a mod's attention, you should raise a custom flag and provide a translation.
@Andreas The email isn't banned or blacklisted, no.
@CodyGray I have been surprised today.
23:31
The IP address and some other information is fed into SpamRam, but not the email.
R/A is handled the same way as spam. See ArtOfCode's recent blog post on the subject.
Yeah, ok.
@Andreas I don't understand why you want them flagged as VLQ.
The only real difference is that R/A-flagged posts won't become audits. Spam-flagged posts might. The system doesn't make any other distinction. I personally prefer to maintain a semantic distinction, but that's mostly just me being quirky. (I'd also defend it by saying that, if at some point, SE decides to use the flag history for something, having accurate history would be handy.)
@eyllanesc So you will delete your comments?
What is SpamRam?
@JohannesKuhn It's the official Smoke Detector bot
23:34
@Scratte It's not really important. "That will make me very happy" wasn't exactly 100% serious. Though, an answer is still an answer, just in another language, so technically, it's VLQ because of the language, but an answer because the content still says the same. – But no, it's not important.
It was developed by SE and it detects spam.
@Andreas Ok. An edit to a answer that is flagged as VLQ will remove the flag and push it out of the Low Quality Post queue. Any edit. This can be both a blessing a curse though.
@Scratte Aha. Then that's a reason to flag it VLQ, if we just had enough resources to translate all non-English answers. Though, not great if the answerer must write comments, and so on... NAA is probably best, then.
@IanCampbell You guys did well. I appreciate your trying. It should have worked. I just tried Something Elseâ„¢.
23:38
@Andreas The trouble is that most edits to Answers that are not answering, do not bring the post into actually answering, so in most cases an edit will then leave the post here, but with no value.. or worse.
While I don't have a problem with someone who happens to be a native speaker with an abundance of time and near-perfect timing deciding to translate a non-English answer, it is not the expected solution to the problem, and we shouldn't wait for it to happen. They should just be deleted.
Haha
Theoretically, how long would such a something last?
Yeah; NAA, then.
@Andreas But a NAA will stay with the post no matter what until the post is gone, or you retract or it's survived the Low Quality Post queue. But those few times, an edit does make into a good post, you'd want to retract your flag :)
@IanCampbell The standard duration for the first offense is 7 days. Normally, we don't suspend for excessive self-promotion on the first offense at all, but they've already been given more than their fair share of help and leading by example.
23:40
Seems fair
You sound surprised :-p
@Scratte I'll just flag as NAA.
– but it will make me very angry.
Well, you want it to be long enough that they notice, but not so long that they can't redeem themselves
@IanCampbell Added to Smokey
@IanCampbell Also of note, users can respond to moderator messages, and if you make that response constructive, we'll sometimes even read it, work with you, and commute your punishment.
23:41
@IanCampbell I realize we are moderating a user, please feel free to /dev/null my original comments
@Andreas Heh.. not as upset as you will be when you find out that any declined flag will mess with your flag-statistics, that doesn't even matter, but is a thing that some of us like to measure :)
Numbers, what a wonderful thing
@CodyGray Yeah, that'll really hide it.
I don't have a problem with the general discussion. Just wanted to move the part connecting it to a specific user.
@Scratte Oh, I manage to get those myself, anyway. ;) I sometimes just make the wrong conclusion.
@Andreas Try to keep the declined flag to less than 5
I had actually intended to post it in Charcoal, but I had the wrong tab open somehow
I think we're good now. Moved the comments about the binned entry as well
23:44
Maybe I need to change the background colors
@Scratte Per day?
@IanCampbell Charcoal already has a different color scheme, since it's on SE chat.
@Andreas lol!.. no. Total :)
I'm using SE Dark Mode user script. Maybe I'll make a copy and edit the background colors slightly
@Scratte Already too late. :(
23:46
@IanCampbell Oh, Sam's script? That styles SO and SE chat identically?
@Andreas Ah.. well. No worries :) You just won't win the contest then.
whistles innocently, hardly able to contain the knowledge that Scratte isn't going to win his own contest, either
@Scratte Oh, I hate contests, so I'm fine with that. ;)
@CodyGray I'm actually using both Sam's script and dark mode at the same time. It has some strange effects, like making diamond moderators have diamonds both before and after their name
@CodyGray You mean I just got a flag declined?
23:47
@Scratte You've got an off-by-one error: you said less than 5.
@CodyGray LOL. This is just so good
@IanCampbell Nothing wrong with that. Needs moar diamonds.
Five-nines accuracy on mod flags isn't realistic. Everyone misclicks. Especially when trying to moderate from a smartphone.
@CodyGray I thought only the gangsters wore too many jewelries.
@CodyGray But I think some users have 3 or even 4 nines
@CodyGray That is because Samuel's script uses < 0.1% and more than a total of 5000 flags, which means that I will not hit this at 5000 flags, since I have 5 declined flags already :)
Had it been <= 0.1 %, I would be able to..
23:52
@Scratte The neat thing about JavaScript is that you have the power.
@CodyGray what does "five-nines" accuracy mean?
99.999% <-- there are 5 9s there
With 5 nines accuracy, that's less than 5.26 minutes of downtime per year, assuming a continuously operated service. See also: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_availability#Percentage_calculation
Sorry, we aim for shog nines here
Oh, so accuracy isn't important at all. See, that's what I keep trying to tell Scratte!
Ahh.. ok. Yes. I will probably lose some of the sawyering effect next time I get a declined flag. Even if it's a misclick, since I know there's no undoing it.
23:54
Sometimes the user edits their post between when you flag and when the mod or review queue sees it, right? Can't do much about that.
@Scratte Sawyering effect? That's why I get to nuke comments?
@IanCampbell Technically, you can hope really hard that the mod will see the little "edited" badge on the flag dashboard, look at the revision history, compare the timestamps, ... Nah, you're right. There's nothing you can do.
@IanCampbell I was under the impression that it exits the review queue.
Guess I was wrong.
If a post you flagged as VLQ is edited, then it exits the review queues, yes. Not in other cases.
Oh.
23:55
Aha! So VLQ and NAA are not the same.
OK or delete OK, edit or delete
@Scratte I used to be super worried about getting declined flags, but I decided it's likely better to streamline the removal of bad content than worry about my Global Flag Summary
@IanCampbell Yes, it's happened to my flags several times. I retract my flag when it happens.
@IanCampbell Please tell Scratte.
Sam and I have a lot of declined flags from testing userscripts and etc.
@Machavity Was that supposed to make sense?
23:59
@CodyGray Meh. Formatting in chat is hard

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