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5:00 PM
@Makyen I'm giving space for prettify to be smart cookie and figure out the language :)
stackoverflow.com/q/62719358/1394729 sounds like an interesting project, but I'm not sure it is suitable for so?
@Braiam While I recognize your intent there, saying "may" leaves it open for the editor to choose that they don't want to apply the preexisting non-default syntax formatting that their edit unintentionally disables. I'm saying that the editor must take that into account, or their edit, just by existing, causes harm.
Not that causing harm is the editor's intent. The extra work is something that SE's chosen to impose upon editors and reviewers, without making sure editors and reviewers know that the system now works that way.
@Makyen Which I taken into account ;) "and you know it will break them"
5:20 PM
@Braiam You said "… you know it will break them, then yes, you may change …". I'm saying "… you know it will break them, then yes, you must change …". I see the difference as saying "may" permits the editor to choose to change the displayed syntax highlighting. My intent is that the syntax highlighting shouldn't be changed, unless it's wrong. In order to not change the existing non-default syntax highlighting, the method used to indicate the code formatting has to be changed.
I think we more or less agree: People shouldn't be changing other people's posts from using one type of equivalent formatting method to another just because they like one formatting style better. Previously, there was no justification for a change from using indenting for code formatting to backticks, because the formatting was completely equivalent.
Now, with CommonMark, there is a legit, functional reason for making that change, but it's relatively rare when it applies, but it does apply, and is even necessary, even when the editor doesn't necessarily want to be making that change, but does want to make some other change.
@Braiam Personally, I use the <!-- method of indicating the syntax highlighting language in a very high percentage of my existing posts. So, personally, I find the situation quite frustrating (i.e. it's a lot of extra work for me).
@Makyen Well, unless you are updating your answers, that work may never need to be materialized :D
In other news, I hate LDAP
5:37 PM
@Braiam True, but it's something I, and every person on the site, has to remember and consider forever whenever we want to edit an old post. I'm wondering how may meta posts we'll see over the years with something like "why isn't syntax highlighting working here" or "why did this editor change the syntax highlighting".
Basically, I find it really frustrating that by SE choosing to not to do the work of either making the <!-- method of specifying the syntax highlighting language function everywhere instead of just in snippets, or automatically making the Markdown format change for this in most of the places/posts where it's needed, SE makes a lot of extra work for a large number of their users, basically for the rest of the time the SE sites exist.
6:17 PM
@Adriaan just fyi: I just had a Malle Babbe (Jopen). It was a gift.
@Dharman that user has plenty of scraping questions. I would say this fits in that pattern and the other questions don't look like spam. So I wouldn't change my opinion when I see this one.
Yes, you are right. Not enough to say this was meant to be spam. Just really low quality
Any thoughts on this answer and the other lowest scoring answers on this question How do I draw this shape in Turtle?. I think the later answer should have definitely been an edit to the first answer. As an aside, one of the answers was the user's first post. Is it reasonable to flag one LQP? It seems reasonable that losing the comments is not a major issue.
@IanCampbell The shorter answer by one user appears to be significantly different than their other, longer answer, which is a valid reason to post separate answers. I don't think either are LQP-worthy, certainly.
LQP is for stuff that is so bad it can't possibly be construed as an attempt to answer any question
@IanCampbell I don't see anything flaggable there. All answers look ok to me
Though I am a bit surprised the other user posted three separate answers
Just so I'm sure we're on the same page, there are two answers from the same user that are basically slight variations.
6:52 PM
@IanCampbell Yes, you can post separate answers with similar but distinct solutions; that's valid.
We can post multiple answers to a single question. In this case it looks like all these answers are just different approaches to solving the same problem
OK, thanks for the feedback.
I don't know Python/Turtle well enough to know if the distinction is enough here, but it appears to be.
I would rely on Python SMEs to make that determination
I gave each of those three R/A. But has somebody raised a mod-flag?
I didn't raise a mod-flag
7:04 PM
@AdrianMole I did, also on MSE
OK. One should be enough.
7:19 PM
I have been flagging too many accounts recently for voting-fraud. I have 50 pending flags. What is up with that? Am I missing something here?
Perhaps its a full complement of moderators that's missing?
Or maybe somebody has flagged your voting-fraud flags as fraudulent?
Maybe we need reactions to chat messages, that way I can react 🤣 to your jokes?
No, but seriously. I am often flagging some small fish, but from time to time I see an account that definitely should not be involved in voting fraud.
Special accounts like mine are allowed to do as much voting fraud as it likes!
7:24 PM
OK, serious question, how can you be so sure? Also happy to discuss in another room.
@halfer I just checked. You're good
@Dharman Did ya check the socks too? 🤣
@halfer See, the 🤣 reaction is catching on.
@IanCampbell That's my point. I don't have access to mod tools so I can never be sure. I keep flagging but because of the backlog I don't get any feedback from mods. I got one "we are looking into this" which I assume means they escalated. Probably.
@Dharman That's fair, it's hard to know if you're being productive without any feedback. Maybe it's just not a high priority?
7:28 PM
@IanCampbell My clipboard even stole it from you, send me an invoice!
@Dharman That's all the direct feedback you're ever going to get. More than that is not provided, although you can infer things from changes you see in rep. BTW: did you see that Catija said they had only very recently gotten caught up to January 2020 on reviewing the CM escalations? So, it's going to be a while.
@Dharman I'd repeat (paraphrase) what was said to the other person that was searching out voting fraud a year or so ago: "It's an issue we care very much about. You're doing a good job. Thank you. If you're willing, please continue."
Yeah, I saw the message from Catija. What is throwing me off is that before last month I only had encountered voting-fraud occasionally. I rarely had to flag someone. Maybe I didn't pay as much attention before and I now see the obvious signs immediately
7:47 PM
Should I mod-flag this for plagiarism or edit to add attribution (and leave a comment explaining)? stackoverflow.com/a/62713631/5764553
The whole question may be a duplicate anyway
@AndrewMyers Mod-flag. It is almost word for word the same answer. The author didn't add anything new themselves
@AndrewMyers I think mod flag, per this meta answer.
8:11 PM
Just to confirm I can't ask here for a deletion of an answer to a question where I also have an answer, correct?
@IanCampbell Cody will be very crossed with you once it comes to light that you started the 🤣 party :D
@Makyen Well, another solution would be a body warning at all times when you edit the post.
Any thoughts on the on-topic-ness of this java Question?
8:27 PM
@Braiam True, although most people just ignore those. :;
9:01 PM
How do people feel about an answer that is a "Thanks" but for a comment, making it the only actual answer on the question...? stackoverflow.com/a/62722259/7508700
I think it needs to be edited into an answer. Not basing it on my opinion, but on what I've seen done with those answers.
But it is sort of plagiarising someone else's comment.
The edit just needs to reflect that.
@DavidBuck You can post an answer which someone posted in a comment. Not everyone enjoys it, but if the person who posted the comment didn't want to post it as an answer then it is their fault.
If you are citing someone's full comment then you should use quote block
@Dharman But it still needs proper attribution, no?
9:05 PM
It depends on what the comment was and what the answer says
Fair enough. I know I don't like it when I've posted a trivial answer as a comment, then 5 mins later, someone posts it as an answer which gets accepted and upvoted... but I guess after 2 years they'd have done so if they wanted.
@DavidBuck You should not post answers in comments. This is not what comments are for
Not even if it's 'remove the parentheses'?
I've done it too :( I found it funny when it's then just copy'n'pasted into an answer.
If it's a typo then don't answer and close instead.
If you know the answer and the question is not closable then post it as an answer. Even if it is only 3 words
9:09 PM
Remember 7 word can give you 10K reputation points, if they're the right ones ;)
Fair enough. It feels silly to post a less than one-liner as an answer.
@Scratte 7 words and a time machine.
@Dharman I wouldn't post 3 words in an answer unless they were very important. I'd feel dirty for doing that. I know short answers get more upvotes, but it just feels wrong.
Anyway, I shall treat @Dharman's advice of "Post all answers as answers, no matter how trivial" and "There's no such thing as plagiarising a comment" as canonical.
Unless I'm also going to vote to close the question, of course, as the caveat to the first one.
@DavidBuck Well, with this plagiarism thing be careful. You can't just go and copy-paste a comment as is into an answer and claim that you said it.
It's OK, I get that.
9:17 PM
@DavidBuck There definitely is plagiarism of comments. If you're copying the comment, then you need to have attribution and follow the referencing guidelines. If you're just using the idea from a comment, then it's normally appropriate to tip your hat to the comment and give them credit for the idea (e.g. "As [this user] briefly said in a comment, you can foo the bar and then do baz."). Giving credit is just the right thing to do.
@Dharman You gave me a try this and a an unexplained regex? :) I don't consider that a good answer.
I didn't say they are good.
Ok, well.. if my answer is bad, I may put in a comment for someone to steal. I've removed my comments if they've been used as answers.
I assume the title of that regex question isn't some jargon that I'm not familiar with? Neither missing or misusing seem to fit.
@Dharman It's not NAA, but I also wouldn't call it an Answer.
My feeling is that if you flag it, it may be deleted, but you also may get your flag declined.
I am almost out of flags, so I will not risk it.
We should be have to give our flags away. You can have 50 on mine
I guess the question is, are hints answers? On some sites, they are. Not sure about SO.
@Scratte I flagged it as NAA as it is a comment
@Vickel Please tell us what happened to your flag :)
@Scratte I'll let you know... :)
@Catija Some of us are just scared of getting declined flags.. I kept "attempt to answer" in my head, even if my heart says: delete, delete, delete.. :)
10:04 PM
@Catija Do they answer the question or just point to where to find the answer.
@Scratte Which shouldn't be. If there's one thing I would like SE to override was that absurd rule that answer without context can be evaluated. The flagger has context, the queue has context, the moderators just have to click once to get the context.
@Braiam that's not a rule. It's an interpretation.
@Braiam That's because the moderator isn't expected to know anything.. :) That's why they gave us the 20K delete option. It's just that there are not enough 20K'ers.
@Catija It's a rule if it's enforced with iron clad zeal
The idea that you can judge whether something attempts to answer the question without the context of the question is... uh. Kinda dumb.
@Scratte They should be expected to know, that's the thing. SO is the only site that moderators don't remove answers that doesn't address the question.
10:09 PM
@Catija We've rephrased it to: If it can answer any Question on Stack Overflow, then it's not an NAA :)
If I'm reading a javascript question and see an answer written in haskhell without mention anywhere in the question that a haskhell answer was desired...
@Scratte 42
@Scratte :eye roll:
@Braiam Then you can rant on meta with a reference to the FAQ post about first post and late answers :) Just don't get surprised when it's declined, is all I'm saying :)
@Catija Not sure I get your point. I can take a look at an answer and without knowing the question I can tell you if it is an attempt to answer it or not. e.g. stackoverflow.com/a/62722264/1839439
10:13 PM
@Catija I think that would be NAA.. Not sure if the one by @AdrianMole is though :D
@Scratte I don't rant. Several moderators from other SE sites found ridiculous SO mods position.
I find it ridiculous too.
@Dharman you're judging the inverse. That's not an answer to any question. But if someone says "use <p> to indicate paragraphs in HTML"... does it answer the question or not?
@Catija You should post on meta. You'll get my vote :)
That depends if the question is "how do I mark paragraphs in HTML?" Or "How do I make a table in HTML?"
@Dharman There are some things posted as 'answers' that are obviously NAA, and one needs neither context nor subject-matter knowledge to recognize them as such. Like "Thanks," "Me too..." and link-only posts. However, there are others that require both context and some degree of expertise in the subject. We cannot expect a team of 20-25 moderators to cover the entire range of programming languages and technologies that SO embraces.
10:16 PM
Which is why NAA flags go to users first...
2
The mods should only be handling them if users aren't.
Then such answers should not be flagged using NAA/VLQ flags. If it's an answer then don't use that flag even if the question doesn't match.
@AdrianMole But if the moderator tools could show the comments on the post, then they could read what a SME has written there.. and judge from that :)
You could use a mod-flag if you think this is something a mod should delete or you can just downvote and vote to delete if you have 20k priv.
@Dharman Yes, that's the status quo. It's also kinda ridiculous.
@Scratte Sam probably has a script for that, but hasn't shown Cody how to use it. :-)
10:18 PM
@Dharman that's completely incorrect. This is not a reason to mod flag.
@Catija That's not always how it goes. Some times the NAA flag queue is emptied in less than it takes to breathe out :)
You can downvote... but it's still not answering the question as asked.
@Scratte Bhargav doesn't need a script!
@Catija In rare situations it might be. But I agree that 99.99% of the time it should not be flagged at all.
If the custom flag does not suit the purpose then NAA/VLQ definitely does not
@AdrianMole I didn't think they did.. and I wasn't referring to the mishap either :)
10:20 PM
The NAA flag is for answers that don't answer the question. Saying the sky is blue when someone asks what color a panda is, is not an answer.
3
@Catija You're right, except on Stack Overflow :)
@Catija No, that is not what this flag is for. The flag description says "This was posted as an answer, but it does not attempt to answer the question. It should possibly be an edit, a comment, another question, or deleted altogether."
You should not flag something that is an answer but still does not answer the question it was posted to
@Dharman If I ask you for apples, and you give me oranges, are you fulfilling my request?
@Dharman How does "the sky is blue" attempt to answer the question, "what color is a panda?"?
@Braiam We do not flag incorrect answers.
10:22 PM
The orange in the image of the explanation of NAA is misleading. Oranges are fine if one asks for an Apple.
@Braiam Wondered how long it would be before the Shog9 criteria were mentioned. ;)
@Catija It does not, which is a perfectly good reason to downvote, but you can't flag this as not an answer.
You absolutely can.
But such flag would be declined
@Dharman No, an incorrect answer would have been that I ask you for Ambrosia and you give me red delicious.
You are still fulfilling my request: giving me apples.
10:23 PM
Not by me.
@Catija The panda was sitting on a cliff, and it was very hard to see with the sun in the background.. but it was obvious that the sky was blue. The direction was right :)
I've deleted many such answers in my time as a mod.
@Catija On Stack Overflow?
Are you sure you are reading yourself:
> How does X attempt to answer the question
> No it doesn't.
> But it is still an answer.
That's bizarre!
@Catija How many panda Question have you come across? :D
10:25 PM
There's a whole tag, isn't there? 🤣
If it doesn't answer the question, NAA applies.
@Catija Good ol' panda eyes.
Ok, let's take an example. I flagged this today and it got declined as I expected. Could someone tell me whether it answers the question or not?
@Scratte Pandas is a python library to help data analist
Here you go: 🐼
Anyway. Not going to win this in here... but... context does matter and this is a pet peeve of mine.
10:26 PM
@Dharman Again, you are dealing with the bizarre.
Context matters only if you know the topic.
When the bizarre gets normalized, all bets are off.
If you don't know PHP then you can't possible judge whether this is just some random code or an actual answer.
If that same situation happened in any SE site, your flag wouldn't be declined.
@Catija The thing is that you are right. Absolutely. But that's not the point here. We don't handle the flags :) Usually moderators do. So we just adjust the flagging according to the post on meta that determines that wrong answers are answers too and answers that misunderstands the question, are answers too.. anything that tries, is an answer :)
10:28 PM
@Catija So, if a question has both and your "not an answer" would be OK? 🤣
How about this answer? I wanted to flag as NAA, but I couldn't because it is an answer. Does it answer the question? Unlikely.
@Scratte "that wrong answers are answers too" that's where you get lost. The answer we are talking about aren't even wrong answers.
@Braiam If they are not wrong answers then they are either comments, questions or correct answers.
@Braiam You mean the example with the blue sky?
@Dharman I don't php, so I don't know.. :(
@Braiam Yes, the sky is blue. And paragraphs are indeed marked with <p>
10:31 PM
@Scratte See? If you were a mod you would have to decline my flag. I can't do anything about this answer other than downvote it.
@Catija I really like that ponny too.
@Dharman You didn't even put a comment on it :)
What should my comment say?
@Dharman Why you marked it NAA, of course.
10:33 PM
and comments.
@Dharman In C++ i++ + ++i is undefined.
@Scratte Because it is just some code which does not attempt to answer the question.
@Dharman How does it not do that? I mean what does it do instead?
I have no idea.
Oh.. interesting :) Nobody knows what that code does :)
The code does not make much sense IMHO.
It attempts to insert some data to a database.
10:35 PM
@Scratte BTW, in the second most upvoted answer is a solution to that problem tweaking the flag description.
@Dharman Yeah, the flag description and the declination message needs to change.
However, even if the flag text got changed it would not improve things much
I would assume that BR would take a look at that PHP answer, check the question and decide that it appears to answer the problem. But it doesn't
I think the flag is fine as it is now. You can always take the chance and flag it. Maybe the LQP will be savvy enough to delete it. Maybe you will be lucky that a PHP mod decides to visit the mod queue that day.
@Dharman That's where custom flags come in.
@Braiam And now you have just went back to the start of the conversation: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/49819171#49819171
10:45 PM
@Dharman A php answer to a php question wasn't Cajita and my frustration.
@Braiam How are we to judge when a non-answer is a non-answer. If it's a Haskell answer that doesn't answer the question, then it's NAA? but a PHP answer that doesn't in any way answer a PHP Question is not NAA? Or what rule will you have work here?
Then I am sorry, but I must have completely missed a point of your discussion.
It either looks like it attempts to solve the problem or it doesn't.
@Scratte The perfect rule is one that gets rid of the trash and only leaves good content. The fact that that answer provided no explanation of what the code those is enough to get deleted in my list.
The reason: low quality answer.
@Dharman The "no context" aspect of the "rule".
NAA is for content that obviously don't answer the question in context.
@Braiam This doesn't even work for Questions on Stack Overflow. Not even when one user notices a bad post and flags it. There's only a 50% chance that it will be closed.
@Scratte That's bad tooling, not a bad rule. ;)
11:00 PM
@Braiam No.. it's not. I post a lot of requests here. Some of them are tricky and require SME. They don't get closed. Which is my point. When it's not obvious, then you can't expect others to see it. How could they?
@Scratte If you get the tag gold badge for the questions you post here, and someone with a gold badge can unilaterally close questions (ala dupe hammer), would you still believe that?
As a duplicate?
No, any reason.
The point is: moderators ultimately handle these flags when the community doesn't. They must make the final decision, or some flags never get handled. Given SO's staffing level of moderators, and that moderators are elected without regard to having, or not having, subject matter expertise in any particular area, it's not possible for the moderator team to have a subject matter expert (SME) in every area which SO covers.
Thus, at least some of the decisions on the disposition of flags must be made by people who don't know the technology involved. As a result, the baseline handling is that such flags will be declined if the "answer" makes what appears to be an attempt to answer. If you happen to get a mod who is an SME in the tech involved, then they can choose to make a more determination with more precision.
But, the staffing level of mods is such that moderators can't routinely choose to not make a determination where they are not a SME. Sure, if they know there's an active mod that is a SME in the tech involved who is likely to be online soon and able to handle the flag, they can choose to let someone else deal with it, but it can't be the default choice, because if it's the default choice, then flags will just pile up to the point where they are overwhelming.
@Braiam Then sure, I'd be closing a lot of Questions.. but when happens when I'm mistaken, or if I had a bad day and I'm very intolerant? Or I'm really good at answering Questions and I'm horrible at curating, but I just like to use that hammer?
11:05 PM
@Scratte Others would hold you up to standards. And if not, meta, flags and moderators.
This site was later envisioned to have moderation work to be as distributed as possible.
@Braiam Sure.. on some of those perhaps :) If I was the only one. Image 4000 grumpy users that just like to use the hammer :D
@Scratte That would be a very unlikely scenario. Heck, even with the debacle of last year at most people just quit.
There wasn't cases of vandalism that I was aware of.
@Makyen That's a problem solved by giving the community more power.
Or changing the tooling.
It does take time to delete every Answer one has produced here, so that's a slow way to quit.
@Scratte No, that's simply we have bad tools.
@Scratte Game of the SE's
11:09 PM
@Braiam Good luck getting SE to make changes. :;
@BhargavRao Hue is free on Epicgames store.
@Makyen Heh, it seems that flagging wording is getting some changes. Maybe is part of that.
@Braiam Considering that they've implemented instant pop-ups instead of keeping the regular easy on the user tool-tips, I'd be a little reluctant to rush any tooling.
@Dharman It's almost midnight...
I am out of everything if that is what you are asking
11:40 PM
Here's a great [probably soon-to-be-deleted] example of a debatable NAA: stackoverflow.com/a/59087723. The poster clearly saw that the question contained the phrase "prime number," thought "hey, I have some code about prime numbers!", and pasted the code.
user10008009
Hi, I have a question for some closed topics. I think it's okay to mark a question as duplicate if the question already exists on this site. But I don't understand it for a wide-spread or generic question like this question. Have edited the question. Don't know if it's correct for SO now.
@krjdev Yeah, we expect asker to have some idea of what would a solution looks like.
It's terrible for people trying to learn from 0.
Worth noting: that question wasn't marked as a duplicate. It was closed for lacking details or clarity about the problem. I would personally have voted "Needs More Focus"
Hi @krjdev , I agree with Ryan that the question you answered lacks enough focus to be on topic for SO
@krjdev Your edit changes the question dramatically (from a program to a filesystem driver), and thus is not permitted as an edit. If you want to dramatically change a question, you should instead ask a similar question yourself, and provide your own answer to it.
Your edit is better than the original question, but it's still asking how to do several things. Generally, tutorial requests are off-topic on Stack Overflow.
I've voted to reject the edit; please know that it's not a personal attack on you. It's simply for the reasons I described in my previous messages.
11:56 PM
@krjdev I also agree that your proposed edit would alter the intent of the question. The general consensus seems to be that the intent of the original author of a question or answer is very important.
@RyanM your comment on that spam post made me laugh. 🤣
:D sometimes I'm feeling whimsical (for once it's deleted, the relevant part of the comment on diet-related spam asking about preferred diets was "I prefer my diet free of spam, which this is.")
I just can't understand why they would think anyone would post real comments on their spam.
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