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12:46 AM
An interesting close reason: image
Not mine, mind you
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Could you toss a flag on that? I'd call that worth a mod-message...
 
@RyanM: done!
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Thanks! Handled.
 
1:03 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels obviously they want the "shows minimal understanding" close reason back...
@Nick could someone please bin this request, OP has deleted the question
 
@RyanM: thanks
 
@RyanM what do you make of this kind of Q?
 
@bad_coder Generally a reasonable how-to question around a specific common need. There's probably a duplicate somewhere with more/better answers...I think I've seen similar questions before.
 
@RyanM smart phones aren't my area so I was curious to get an opinion.
 
user17242583
@HenryEcker I see you rejected this edit, but I'm not sure why? It just adds info from a comment under the answer to the answer itself, which I understand to be a good practice.
 
@richardec I'd approve for including valuable info from a comment into the Q. However, in such cases a direct link to the docs is desirable (without references it's hearsay).
@richardec Python docs are great, says the same thing 3 times for open "encoding is not specified the encoding used is platform-dependent"... But when I read the dataclass docs half the options aren't explained, great...!
 
user17242583
@bad_coder yeah, but things may have changed since 2014 when the comment was written
 
user17242583
 
1:37 AM
@richardec did you mean "off-topic"? This question is not opinion-based, it's just looking for recommendations (and is rightfully closed for that reason)
 
user17242583
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Yes, I'm sorry, I mix those up sometimes :)
 
user17242583
I desperately want to recommend deletion on that one, but since it is an answer...
 
@richardec uh, the whole thread deserves a del-pls... SOCVR rules permit del-pls for: "or answers which have a score less than or equal to 0."
@richardec see FAQ #11 - del-pls
 
2:03 AM
@richardec It is certainly good practice to add OP's own information into the question. e.g. they clarify something in the comments about their question or their answer. I can't say that moving a different users content is universally considered good practice.
WRT that specific edit. It did not use appropriate attribution nor block quoting (though I appreciate your adding the attribution in). It also used the word "Edit" which is superfluous as revision history is tracked and something we routinely edit out of questions. Lastly, the comment describes a different approach to solving the problem (the origional solution was valid) so I felt that it could be a standalone answer if it was complete.
Those are some of the reasons I chose to reject it. Though I'm not opposed to the approval as it currently stands (though I did edit to add in the block quote and remove the word "edit")
 
2:19 AM
@richardec no worries, I just thought it's odd you referred to it as opinion-based :) that's a good question [that you asked], and a mod ruling on that would be great
 
2:41 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine the close reason for "looking for recommendations" explicitly indicates that it leads to opinion-based responses, so I think it's just a SO-specific subset of the broader SE category, and both descriptions are true. :)
 
@DanielWiddis aaargh, the wording on close reasons is atrocious
 
The close-vote queue (see link in starred post to right---> ) could use some love. It's harder to filter through the remaining questions to evaluate them for editing/tag-removal or closing because many of them have pending CV.
 
3:02 AM
Does this count as non-English VLQ?
 
@DanielWiddis I think so
 
I'm not sure about that. Without the image, the text of the answer is a valid answer.
 
without the image it doesn't answer the question.
 
To clarify, I'm referring to whether the answer should be flagged. "Try turning off the server firewall" is an answer, even if it doesn't answer the question (I haven't looked at the question).
 
OK, fair. Retracted my flag.
Left the comment tho :)
 
3:14 AM
The comment is definitely good, as the answer would be improved if the screenshot had English text. Although if the answer is wrong, or doesn't answer the question, it's a moot point :p
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Wouldn't that count as being discussed on meta? OP seems to be referring to the linked question, even though they haven't linked directly to it themself.
 
"Do you know anyone who uses the Web? Yes, how many? Multiply that by $100…" ???
 
@HenryEcker I guess because you're going to be annoying them until they buy whatever you're selling to shut you up?
 
4:33 AM
Is this R/A, or just a really bad question?
 
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine Pretty sure there's a meta post about that
 
It's not R/A, it's just a very low quality question.
 
@DanielWiddis Excellent, thanks
 
 
2 hours later…
7:05 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
8:11 AM
@DanielWiddis The question is off-topic, IMO
@bad_coder I would have rejected that edit with the same reason. Also, I don't like "thank you" in the answers, whoever the recipient is
Not that I like them in questions, haha
 
@Nick too slow... someone answered...
 
It is also gone
 
@Vega luckily the answer didn't get upvoted before OP could delete...
 
8:27 AM
@Nick That was the reason for the rush to delete, I can guess
 
@Vega that and the fact that it was getting downvoted, which seems a bit mean...
 
Downvoting content that is not useful is not mean but nice and helpful
 
 
2 hours later…
10:28 AM
Regarding the airlines spam and in case any mod is reading this, the tactic is to first post what appears to be a legit question about HTML, then immediately edit it to spam. This doesn't show up in the edit history of the posts.
 
@cigien sorry for the slow response, was asleep by the time you wrote. I am not sure, actually: it looked to me as the consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping closed, and the one who started it did not engage for nearly a day. But I am open to any resolution
 
@Lundin perhaps not a good tip to share publicly
 
Well if the spammers are in this chat we got problems regardless. I dont remember the rep requirement for joining a chat, but any vanilla new user cant do it.
 
They can't join chat but they can view us. We are a public website.
 
16 hours ago, by VLAZ
Significant edits should not be wiped from the revision history by the grace period.
@AdrianMole Wait, even Santa can see who is naughty or nice in chat?
 
10:32 AM
Oh well it doesn't really matter because the spammer seem to think their posts are marked as spam by some script and not through manual flagging, so there's no way around it for them.
 
I thought I was safe here!
 
@VLAZ Of course not. Santa has long since been permanently banned from chat ... for having fun.
 
Yes, "ho ho ho" is clearly sexist so we perma-banned that creep.
 
... as opposed to Long John Silver, who is still welcome despite "Yo ho ho...".
That "c" tag isn't helping the would-be airlines spammer.
 
for what it's worth, I have tagged #edited-in-grace-period where I noticed
 
10:35 AM
Soon we'll have to rename it to "disgrace period"
3
 
@AdrianMole Aye, is about Application Request Routing so obviously on-topic.
 
I thought it was for "Talk Like a Pirate Day"
 
It's "Talk like a Network Admin day" Arp rarp arr!
 
I'm just guessing here, but maybe that post first, edit in the spam very quickly afterwards does dodge the official SO "Spam Ram". But it doesn't seem to have its desired effect on the (unofficial but approved) Smoke Detector bot.
 
Well it's a persistent spammer so they'll have to be banned by IP or mac or whatever them John Silver network admin folks do.
 
10:41 AM
Not sure if even moderators get to see what posts are rejected by the Spam Ram filtration unit. That's likely privileged, need-to-know staff only.
 
persistent spammers almost by definition use a VPN or some other IP obfuscation technique so that banning or throttling by IP won't work
 
wow... spam handled in 54s... nice
 
I saw 37 seconds a day or two ago.
 
even nicer :)
 
10:55 AM
Presumably, when Smokey is granted "extreme prejudice" rights (6 flags), posts could be zapped in much shorter times.
 
the spam wave does wonders for our average deletion time on the main Metasmoke dashboard
 
@AdrianMole It's...no longer spam
 
@VLAZ ... maybe the intervening edit from another user threw a spanner in the works.
... now it's spam.
 
@AdrianMole That's what I was referring to.
I have to find the link to the meta Q about not editing spam and add it as a canned comment.
I tend to see users editing spam some times but it's never worth looking for the link, since the spam gets handled in the mean time.
 
11:01 AM
@VLAZ But, in fairness, there was little or nothing in the original post to suggest that it was spam, unless you've been following the wave. cc @JeanneDark
 
@AdrianMole Didn't they roll back the edit to the support number spam? So it was obviously spam.
 
Actually, I misread the edit history. I thought the user restored the original version. I think it's more likely the user just made an edit starting from the original but saved after the edit from OP.
 
@JeanneDark Don't think so. I think they just made some minor edits (e.g. deleting the initial "3." from the title).
 
Well, the 3. was still there. But yes, I think it was a minor edit. We don't know what, though.
 
There was an edit from Gerhard within the grace period, from what I can tell. But that then 'breaks' the possibility of an invisible "grace period" edit from the OP.
 
11:05 AM
@VLAZ This one may be of interest: Should spam posts be edited?
 
@AdrianMole No, quite possible: 1. OP posts the "legit" question 2. user starts editing to fix a mistake 3. OP edits in the spam 4. user finishes the edit and saves which overwrites the entire question
In that case 3. doesn't show in the edit history.
@JeanneDark Thanks, that's the one I was thinking of. I never bookmarked it, and finding it usually takes more time than it takes for spam to be handled.
I'll add it as a canned comment, so I can access it fast.
 
@VLAZ Yeah. Looked again at the revision history and it is all very confusing.
 
jps
the spammers think they're clever. This startet as a normal question and turned into spam within the grace period.
 
I've had legitimate questions turn very confusing because of a grace period change. E.g., somebody comments on an obvious mistake that makes the code not work at all, OP changes it, somebody else comes in and criticises the first commenter because the code is fine. I've been the first and second commenter in these.
 
I'm just waiting for the airline spammer to get round to Ryan Air ... so we can list "Ryan" as a bad keyword in MetaSmoke. xD
... but nobody would believe anything that talked about a Ryan Air "support number", I guess.
 
11:14 AM
 
@AdrianMole From what I've heard, it's be an uphill battle to try and make somebody believe Ryan Air cares about their customers.
 
jps
11:32 AM
^ two quite similar questions, both about JWT and Axios.
 
11:47 AM
seems borderline rude from machine translation but at the very least NAA ^
 
VLQ flag from me
but yeah, the google translate results in nothing good on that answer
assuming this was R/A, does deleting the answer due to 3 delete votes remove it from moderator queue? assuming the answer was flagged R/A
 
@Cristik Is the flag still pending? In case of spam flags, if the post is otherwise deleted, the flags are still pending and subject to review by moderators.
 
"I need to solve this argent." - first time I saw this variation of "urgent" :)
 
@Cristik It's even more urgent, since it would be higher up alphabetically :P
 
@JeanneDark thanks, good to know that R/A content doesn't escape moderator attention even if the post gets deleted
hmm... Smokey, why didn't you caught that post by yourself?
not enough (artificial) intelligence, maybe? :)
 
12:11 PM
@Vega what?! Am I loosing my nack for edit reviewing...? :O Wait, let me see...
 
morning
@Vega you are right! But I was in a different mindset. Priority would be the extra info and I'd edit the salutations out myself if the info were worth it.
 
@Cristik The only drawback is that when you can't see deleted posts you can't retract a pending flag if you want to (except for with userscripts, I think).
 
Is SO down?
 
think SO :)
I tried to check @JeanneDark's affirmation about retracting flags, and check if its possible to retract them from the profile page
but could not check, SO is down...
ok, SO is back, back again
but don't have a pending flag to check :)
 
12:18 PM
@Cristik You have enough rep to see deleted posts so you should be able to retract them, you need 10k+ rep.
 
even if the post is deleted, the flag is still showing on the profile page
and if you can retract the flag from there, then you don't need to be able to access the post
hmm... bummer... seems one can't retract flags from the profile page...
 
@Cristik That's the problem and why you can only retract with 10k+ rep, unless you use userscripts.
 
that sounds like a missing feature :)
 
They just want to keep the mods busy ;)
 
busy... or happy?
 
12:24 PM
Probably not that often that you would want (or need) to retract a flag from a post that has been deleted. In most cases, that would mark it helpful, so it's gone. For mod flags ... hmm.
 
Imagine you flag something as spam and people tell you it's not, but should be deleted anyway and so they do exactly that. Then...
 
so... I earlier searched for a post to flag in order to test if I can retract the flag from the profile page... and... I found the most downvoted accepted answer on SO
 
They possibly still gained rep from it
 
yeah... +74/-279... that's a clear positive reputation gain
 
+157 for asking the question in the first place
 
12:32 PM
hmm... didn't notice it's the same person that asked the question :P
would this make it a typo question? :)
 
It depends on how quickly they gained the upvotes, with the rep cap
 
looking at the timeline, the votes are highly distributed
 
12:48 PM
I've seen a couple of weird users in the past two days. The usernames seem to suggest that the answers are written by AI's (the sentence-making kind). The formatting is all over the place, and reading closely, they rarely provide actual answers.
 
@GeneralGrievance Flag it for mods attention. We don't moderate users in this room
 
Didn't mean for it to come across that way. Sorry about that.
 
1:18 PM
@GeneralGrievance Don't worry. I just wanted to anticipate what might have had happened next. There's just nothing this room can do in situations like that. Mods can investigate it much quicker and more thourough
 
OK. I definitely wasn't going to name and shame in this room.
 
It's a satisfying feeling casting the final spam flag
 
@NathanOliver Agreed. I believe LoL players call it "Last Hitting."
 
1:33 PM
All this spam makes me wonder if there are actually people who upon coming across a wall of spam text thinks "hey this seems like a trustworthy airline advertising through spam on a programming site, I'm going to place my life in their hands and book a ticket"...
 
I think there might be
 
@Lundin Same as smugglers, if it happens you have to presume that you are only seeing 30% of it
 
@Lundin Probably. Until we trained it out of people in our front office, we had people replying to emails from the "boss" asking them to buy some giftcards.
Just go to Money.SE as search is this a scam. You'd maybe be surprised how bad they can be and people still think it might be legit.
 
OK sure, I'm gonna book a flight with this trusty airline to Nigera, because I've just won the national lottery there without even buying a ticket.
 
I blame Monopoly. "Bank error in your favor." Uh, huh, sure.
 
1:41 PM
@GeneralGrievance So true. I was very surprised to learn once I became older that even if a bank makes an error, they "always" get their money back.
 
Do not pass go. Go considered harmful.
 
@Lundin That's intentional. The spammers make it so obvious to attract only the most gullible ones and not waste time on people who will see through a scam eventually
 
@Lundin Relevant security.stackexchange.com/q/96121/27973 since Jeanne didn't
 
@JeanneDark But I really do (did?) have a Great Uncle Baba-Zuzu in Lagos. I'm just not sure why his widow wants to put half the $30 billion he left her in my bank account. Would I be considered gullible if I replied to the email to ask for that clarification?
 
Yeah but in this case it is, as I understand it a real airline company, not a scam.
 
1:51 PM
Yeah - the airlines listed are real, just as "QuickBooks" and "CoinBase" are, in those ones.
 
Ok I guess Smokey just answered that, lol. So the airline is just there to draw attention.
 
So the only real way to win is to get everybody to start scam-baiting these numbers, i.e. DDOS their phone lines.
 
We had a real question about QuickBooks a few days back. Smokey didn't like it at all, so we had to edit the title to make it look specifically not like spam.
@GeneralGrievance I think Ryan already tried that. They aren't real phone numbers.
 
I also wanted to ask a question specifically about a coinbase support number before the spam wave began and now I'm too afraid to do so
 
If they aren't real phone numbers then what's the point?
 
1:54 PM
DDoS
 
For a DDoS it's quite slow paced. Or maybe automated scripts etc catch the bulk of it?
 
I think the perpetrators are people who want to get more helpful spam flags
 
@JeanneDark Aha, yes that ought to be it! :P
 
@Lundin It comes in waves. But, yes, Spam-Ram and Smoke Detector (with a little help from its friends) catch most of them before they actually appear on any normal watch lists.
 
By far most SO users likely don't ever notice the spam waves
 
1:57 PM
@GeneralGrievance You can mix some truth with lies to make the lies more convincing
 
The recent SO outages (and, possibly, the occasional, short-lived ones we're still getting) are/were likely down to this DDoS attack.
 
Doubt so. One interfere with the other.
 
2:14 PM
meh
 
2:58 PM
@DanielWiddis it's hard to say but I guess the burnination is 3-4 days away from completion...
 
@bad_coder this also doesn't qualify for this room, please pay attention to the activity on the post before you're submitting a request; also please keep in mind that if you are the sole editor in the last 6 months doesn't make the post eligible for requests here
4
 
3:19 PM
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null - no recent activity
 
3:31 PM
@Cristik That post is part of qa
 
3:58 PM
Heh - A new Smokey term: "GP-spam"? But a Spam GP would be scary.
 
Selling false hopes to the people. Shameful. The only appropriate punishment is to close them in a metal box.
 
@SurajRao also needs a Attempt to reply
 
@SurajRao Is that an attempt to reply? Or is it an attempt to clarify?
 
huh thats weird.. side by side markdown shows code change
so it looks like some attempt at a comment
 
@SurajRao the "code" changes are only moving { around to make the thing more compact
 
4:08 PM
@Braiam "public" keyword on class
 
@Braiam being part of the burnination effort doesn't mean we need to bend the rules
 
see markdown difference
 
@SurajRao Which is inconsequential to the problem. Having it or not won't change the problem that the user is seeing
 
user17242583
Would you consider this a comment, or a valid answer?
 
@SurajRao The code changes are formatting. Although some tidying up of the indentation and line breaks would be nice, that actually changes the basic style of {...} spacing, so would likely be rejected by me on a grumpy day.
 
4:11 PM
If the keyword is trivial fine I suppose..
 
... but yeah, I missed that in my (new default?) edit review tab (inline).
 
@AdrianMole If that were the only change I agree, but the description of the problem is useful and it takes more time for me to reject and add it it back.
 
it highlighted only in markdown view
 
Again, adding public probably goes too far.
 
How would that affect the fact that it prints nothing because the faulty logic?
 
4:17 PM
I don't know (not my language), which is why I didn't complete the review.
But I'm currently more concerned about the added public not showing up highlighted in my inline view. Is this a known bug for code blocks? (Sounds a bit familiar.)
 
It was showing in mine
 
And now that it's completed, the code changes show for me. Maybe a script I have running ...
 
@AdrianMole Hmmm? It should be C like.
Change the print thing and you are golden to reproduce the thing
 
The code format display fine but, when I first checked out the review, nothing was highlighted (as the added normal paragraph was, in lurid green). Now I see all sorts of red & green changes in the code.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I'm not disputing that it should be closed. I'm just wondering if the request goes against the "posts being discussed on meta" rule.
 
4:31 PM
@cigien the bullet point on rule #15? yeah, I am not sure myself come to think of it (I mean, are such posts excluded for all eternity or is there a limit and what is it if it is). Maybe we should request a ruling?
 
@Cristik you fail to understand...
@richardec I consider that a comment, correct course of action can be a costum mod flag asking to convert it as such. I don't think a "recommend deletion" is considered an acceptable action there...
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I don't think there's a statute of limitations on that rule. Sure, we can double check what to do here. @NathanOliver Thoughts re this request?
 
@Braiam I got it Braiam, I got it!! :D It just struck me :D !!!...
 
@cigien There was an earlier discussion (back then they weren't mod and RO yet)
 
@cigien I am all for not bending the rules for any reason, so yeah, let's double-check, I'll be happy with any outcome. cc @TylerH
 
4:39 PM
@cigien and @OlegValteriswithUkraine I normally use a week or 2 after its been on meta. During that time we should not moderate the Q here since the Q is active on meta. So right now we should not moderate that Q here.
 
@NathanOliver sounds reasonable - bin please, then?
 
4:51 PM
AFAICT, the most recent conversation about the time limit was here, which has an RO effectively saying "never". It's not the only one conversation about it though, and there doesn't seem to be clear consensus on what to do. ROs and mods have said different things on and off, e.g. the discussion Jeanne linked to.
How about this for a "rule"? If one feels that sufficient time has passed on a post being discussed on meta, ask for, and get, an RO's permission before posting the request? This sort of request happens infrequently enough that it wouldn't be an excessive additional things for ROs to rule on, and wouldn't require any additional wording added to the FAQ, as it's subsumed under the "RO's discretion" principle.
 
meh
it's easy to just not
its one post among millions
 
@KevinB which is true for every request posted in here ;)
 
@cigien that sounds reasonable enough for me too
 
Or, if someone posts the "This is being discussed on Meta..." comment, then leave it until a mod sees fit to delete that comment? That way, it's the moderators who moderate our moderation of meta.
 
Yes, however this one has a meta exception
 
5:00 PM
Personally, I would go with "exempt for eternity", as it's easy to remember, and (presumably?) uncontroversial. However, while there are ROs who feel that there is potentially a time limit, members will, very reasonably, post such requests. It seems to me that having a rule to refer to might save some time spent on figuring out when a particular request is valid, or not. This is just my personal preference for there being rules for everything :) so apologies if this comes across as nipticky.
 
user17242583
What a spam wave today!
 
Is my suggested duplicate here close enough? (Don't know much about MISRA.)
 
@cigien in fact, I am huge sucker for rules and established processes as opposed to freeform style. It also has a benefit of being automatable since such a ruling can be turned into a simple (or complex) algorithm
 
... Meh. I hammered it, already. Getting rid of a warning is much the same as silencing MISRA machines.
 
@AdrianMole A hammer probably works for silencing most machines, as well.
 
5:07 PM
:)
 
@VLAZ Only if you wield Mjolnir.
 
5:27 PM
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine nah, any hammer will do :)
actually, fists are as good as well - youtube.com/watch?v=N5dauIYZTs4
 
cleaning blood off a hammer is easer then cleaning it away from fist. also micro-injuries on your fists are easier to prove
 
5:42 PM
@tacoshy Why would I be using my fists? I'd use the severed hands of my vanquished foes. It's the only worthy cause they can serve.
 
:D
 
6:32 PM
@bad_coder I think it's shorter than 3-4 days. There are only 100 open questions and a random sampling of those shows a decent proportion are already on the CV queue.
 
@AdrianMole cc @Lundin It did appear to be a real phone number. However, no one picked up after a couple rings and it went to voicemail. Surprisingly unsophisticated, seems like they just got some SIMs and put them in phones.
 
@RyanM Do you know about what time of day you called?
 
According to SO chat and my userscripts, I seem to have called at 0NaN:04
Really though I called at this time: chat.stackoverflow.com/messages/54499013/history
@Cristik We apologize for the delay and will strive to do better in the future ;-)
 
7:42 PM
@RyanM If you're havin' number problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got NaN problems because NaN ain't NaN.
 
So, a signalling phone NaN would be more useful than a quiet phone NaN, is not?
 
@AdrianMole quite -> quiet?
 
Well done! You have spotted today's deliberate mistake. Congratulations on your extra 5 daily close votes. :)
 
Don't spend them all in one place!
 
@VLAZ Sometimes I find a question so bad that I would like to spend ALL my close votes just on it alone.
 
7:54 PM
I was amused that none of that broke the grace period on my edit there.
 
hmm
 
8:26 PM
@DanielWiddis I retaged as many as I could after the ping (search is too poluted atm to retag more). I'm curious to see how the pending CVs get uncluttered out of the queue today and tomorrow. I'll hit it again after UTC 0 when I get more ammo.
 
8:39 PM
@bad_coder I believe between the two of us and 50 CVs we can get everything on the queue when votes reset in a few hours, then we just need to nag the people in this room to click on the link over there ---> :-)
95 Q's left, the majority are closeable IMO.
 
So, Nvidia released their linux kernel modules as open source us.download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/515.43.04/README/…
 
So I have an interesting idea regarding being able to mass-burninate tags with large numbers of questions, which would make @Braiam very happy. Can I pre-test my idea here before a Meta post about it?
 
"interesting"
 
@DanielWiddis If it's creating a list of question ids before the removal and archiving that, yeah, I already "tested" it on meta.
 
8:53 PM
Interesting™️
@Braiam Uh, not even sure what that is. Mine is more of a hacky workaround.
 
@DanielWiddis Ah, ok, but here it was the "idea" I had meta.stackoverflow.com/a/402384/792066
Last paragraph
 
Hmm, I like that.
@Braiam So, in response to your post, you indicated there is "lack of accessible tooling that makes it easier. The perfect tooling would be a bulk adding/removing tag tool." But we do have tooling to do bulk operations on tags. Specifically: merging tags.
So my hacky workaround is to have a very specific tag ... perhaps , that if we (as a community) decide an entire tag is off topic, just merge it into trogdor. Periodically, if and when they get around to it, staff can mass-clear-out trogdor. But if they don't clear it out, it's still available.
 
We should have a way to forbid that tag from being added to questions by normal users.
 
@DanielWiddis No, that's not removal. That's renaming
 
@Braiam merging is more than renaming
 
9:06 PM
@DanielWiddis that would only work for one tag at a time, though. otherwise it's not reversible.
I'd sooner say prefix with do-not-use or something
 
@DanielWiddis Yes, but you need a "valid" tag to target. Internet, for example, would have no valid tag that would apply equality that is also not target to removal (like web, website, etc. all of those are also removal target).
 
That said, that would still be really hacky...
 
C'mon, we're the hackiest people around. Look at all the userscripts we use to deal with lack of accessible tooling.
 
@DanielWiddis I'm still in awe, that you don't think about just running a bot against the api, remove the tag from those questions and store a list somewhere.
That's a "tool" that does what we need :)
 
That's a very user-visible hack, though. Most of our hackiness is "behind the scenes" so to speak.
 
9:09 PM
Ideally, it should be backed in SE thing, which is. The only thing it lacks is that it's a CM tool only, there isn't a way to get a list or revert it back to what it was.
 
Autoflagged FP: flagged by @SmokeDetector, @Rob, @Federico
 
BTW, in case someone doesn't know: community managers have a "destroy tag" button, which does literally that
 
So why isn't it being used?
 
9:12 PM
because
 
Because most tag cleanup work is handled by moderators and the community, not CMs
Improving moderators' ability to do this would be nice, but also probably not the most pressing moderator-facing issue.
 
@DanielWiddis The one that pushed the button (Shog) isn't in the company anymore.
 
@RyanM Unless it involved the tag. That seems to be getting (some) mods a bit hot.
 
@RyanM [citation needed] we haven't burned many +1k tags recently (in the last... 3-4 years?)
 
Tag blacklisting could be made easier. Asked for some time ago but still an outstanding "feature request".
 
9:16 PM
@Braiam I think my statement is part of why that's the case.
 
Tag blacklisting has the problem that it's basically a regex thing, which doesn't help with performance.
@RyanM In other words moderators and the community dropped the ball on tag cleanups?
 
Or it's just hard to do ones that large
 
I mean, the process to do small ones is hard.
Because, and there's this nifty dashboard thingy the removal process itself is not that long.
The thing is kicking it off at all.
Basically, excessive bureaucracy.
 
In terms of performance, reducing the number of tags and making better use of them would surely be beneficial. Or maybe not? Dunno much about how respected "other sites" rate SO's impact/quality in terms of tag use.
We could have Tag Trees. Sub-tags only become available when their parent is used. Think of the fun the UI people would have with that.
 
lol
 
9:28 PM
@Braiam It's much longer than it has to be because only 2 people are really actively participating. Perhaps only those who regularly participate in burninations should be allowed to request them?
 
Can we have Burnination Badges?
 
@DanielWiddis Nah, the problem is that the discussion process has to be nearer to the actual actions. Strike while is hot an all that.
Back in the day there were +10 burnination going on at the same time, because people simply jumped in.
But now you have years between when someone request a burnination and when it actually happens.
 
But the slow-down is deliberate. The "Let's not do anything hasty" mentality won out.
 
@Braiam For some. For others it's quick. I saw a spreadsheet of the backlog somewhere.
 
10:10 PM
@Braiam I've seen one burnination that kept the IDs in GitHub (that was several years before I joined).
@DanielWiddis I don't think this would work because if I understand correctly during burninations sometimes there are Qs left hanging with orphan tags and no one willing to clear it out.
@DanielWiddis we're incurring in some overhead by closing everything (takes 3 curators and 3 actions) that will get deleted. So the retag (to the burn tag) would simplify that by clearing out stuff with 1 action. However, it isn't as "neat" as leaving everything duly closed (which also equates to a 3 party "sanity check")...
@DanielWiddis Besides the Trogdor dashboard there's this spreadsheet in Trogdor chat room but I don't know if it's updated...
 
The latest created date is June 2019.
 
@DanielWiddis Trogdor's the place then... I really like the presentation but I haven't found anyway to rank by totals (like seeing how many total Qs there were at the start of each burnination put neatly into an ordered list).
 
10:26 PM
@bad_coder Which is fine an all, but you don't need to mix both processes. You can leave a list of those post so those inclined to do so also close/delete/edit those questions if they think so.
Keeping the process simple would make it faster, since you don't need to do so many actions at the same time.
 
@Braiam I'm not sure I understand? Uh, if you jump the closing step then mistakes will become common (at least that's what I think).
 
@bad_coder I mean, rarely my ideas are originals :)
@bad_coder Don't think about the mistakes that can be done, think about whenever they can be fixed.
 
@Braiam You have "the Braiam touch" that's unique by itself :D
 
You can't prevent all mistakes.
With a audit list, you can review back and correct anything that you believe is a mistake.
 
@Braiam If you go into burninations by mass retaging into a dump tag (single user actions) you are likely to start deleting value without anyone looking at it.
 
10:30 PM
@bad_coder Well, you have a list if anyone is curious.
Also, I don't really care about "value lost", since if it was that important, someone somewhere will ask the question again.
There are people that cry bloody murder for questions that were 6 years deleted without issues.
 
@Braiam no one will be interested...! There were 3 invested curators in this burninations and perhaps another 6 who pledged a sizeable contribution. That still bottlenecks anything to 120/day (reduced to 40/day)...
And if that 3rd participant fails to show up all you'll get are 2CV/post pending closure...
 
@bad_coder That's presuming that they don't coordinate to actually recruit unaware users to the cause. The close queue exist for something :)
 
@Braiam we have completely different perspectives on this, I've found my solution often on old abandoned posts on niche tags and there wasn't any alternative (nor was anyone around to answer the question if it were asked again).
 
Rarely post have a single tag. So, you can seed those post towards the queue, working with those questions that have popular tags first.
@bad_coder Those are rare cases of a rare case
Not useful for creating general processes
 
@Braiam yeah, but that's what brings me to SO - the size of the field. If I was after mainstream stuff there'd be N sites offering a bland repetition of the same.
 
10:35 PM
If the question is 0 score, and you only visit it to remove a tag, it would be removed whenever or not you do anything.
Those cases won't rob me my sleep :)
 
@Braiam I could point you to several SMEs who've cracked unique nuts and all they got for it was a +1 or +2... Those are the posts I'm after!!
 
@bad_coder Have you seen the distribution curve of score on the entire site?
Most post sit at 0
Look at this query/graph!
 
@Braiam this is good, X axis is what?
 
@bad_coder Count of post id's/score
 
@Braiam so 10M Qs have score 0? That's 50% total...?!
 
10:41 PM
Yep
 
5M have score 1 and 2M have score 2...
 
0.9M have -1
 
77% doesn't get past +2...
@Braiam That is a Dharman job :D
On the upside, the negative Qs combined are less than 10% of the total..
@Braiam ok, time to get 1 hour coding in before 0 UTC, see you later o/
 

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