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12:46 AM
RO, please withdraw this cv-pls request. The OP has provided a valid MCVE. @Makyen
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
 
2 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
6:08 AM
gnarl, it's Friday again
 
@tripleee are we on Iceland?
 
@rene more like in Asia I would think, where it's Friday afternoon already, and beginner programmers flood to Stack Overflow to post poorly articulated duplicates
 
Maybe we should rewrite the dupes in the same poorly articulated style so they will be found ...
 
 
3 hours later…
8:51 AM
Is this question suitable for SO (NATO)? Not sure if it's recommendation or opinion-based, but it looks off-topic.
 
9:01 AM
@JeanneDark 人気があるようです
 
Thanks
 
9:55 AM
@JeanneDark Looks fine to me
 
10:15 AM
So, for close vote reasons, we have "Needs focus (multiple Qs)" when we need "Too broad" but, for 'feedback' in First Questions, we have "Too broad" when we need "Needs focus (multiple Qs)". I think I feel a rant coming on ...
 
11:11 AM
@Dharman thank you
@AdrianMole Surprised they didn't also add "Too localized" and "Not constructive" ;)
 
11:29 AM
OK, so there is this guidance: What should be done about offensive names? but does it apply for content which is offensive in another language? I don't mean offensive by accident - it's most definitely on purpose. Just not in English.
 
hehe
Need a humor.stackoverflow.com for those questions
Why is my unsigned not signed?
 
@JeanneDark Hmm, the focus of that is different. I'm talking about straight up profanity. Just doesn't seem nice. But I'm not sure if I should flag it.
 
But then doesn't the guidance from the other question fit? You can translate the name and show that it's actually offensive in the custom flag text. Maybe they won't do anything about it but I doubt the flag would be declined.
 
@JeanneDark How are you supposed to know what is offensive, for a culture you don't know about, when it doesn't seem offensive to the cultures you are knowledgeable of?
 
11:44 AM
OK, I flagged it with a link to a translation. Other than the username, there doesn't seem like a lot else happening with the user - they don't seem to be posting disrupting content.
@Gowiser For a random culture, it might be hard to gauge in some situations. I suppose "May you not have a feather on you" sounds OK in English but might be a grave curse in bird-language. Still, many offensive things do translate to offensive in English. A lot of times it's not that hard to know what's not nice by the translation.
 
@VLAZ Don't know what the user's name is. But I am old. And the PC these days, seem a little over the top
 
@Gowiser Oh, it's not ambiguous, I assure you. Moreover, it's in my native language, so I can guarantee it's not something that just happens to translate to an offensive sounding phrase.
 
@vlaz K. Well you do an outstanding job. I find it hard enough to help a little bit
Have a good weekend everyone
 
@NathanOliver: good morning
 
12:35 PM
^ R/A or rollback?
 
Is there something I'm not getting here? Or am I not understanding what not means in this context? Or should I just not have commented. (I think that ~ can mean not, in some languages/circumstances, but that is not relevant here, if I'm not mistaken.)
 
@AdrianMole I do not think it is not correct. Or more precisely, I think the "not" is incorrect.
 
I think you should remove the "not". It will not solve your problem.
 
12:50 PM
@JeanneDark :)
 
1:14 PM
This question, What are the easiest ways to get the latest version number of my app published in apple app store / google play store without writing native code?, looks to be off-topic but I'm not sure which reason to use, perhaps general computer use (product support)? Thoughts?
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Hmm, I'm not convinced it's off-topic. But I cannot be sure. "How to get the latest version of my app" seems like a programming problem, because OP wants to know this from within the app.
 
@VLAZ: thanks, that helps. I haven't voted to close it yet
 
Perhaps to reword it, it's be "How can I make a version check of my app?"
 
Happy Friday everyone
Starting today out with a mod-flag on an off-topic bounty question. Spicy.
 
@TylerH 🎵 Gotta get down on Friday 🎵
 
@TylerH That's asking for a race condition :)
 
2:42 PM
i haven't had an off topic flag on a bounty question flag work out in recent years
always takes more than 7 days to handle
 
3:15 PM
@KevinB perhaps it's a coincidence that I mentioned the flag here... mine was handled in about 10 minutes
 
@tripleee or questions that lack research efford and missing basic HTML and CSS knowledge. Stuff you normally learn on your first day as example.
 
3:55 PM
According to netflix we need more ram in our nics
 
As a software developer, it's all Greek to me
 
@KevinB maybe run for mod so you can handle your own flags instantly ...
 
It's 5pm, I don't feel like working anymore
 
@Dharman happy weekend
 
I ordered take out, but I still have an alignment call at 6pm
 
4:02 PM
let's hope for chaotic good
 
@tacoshy uh, what was this in response to? please use the reply button to thread the messages, especially if you are responding to something several hours old
 
sorry tripleee - your statement that friday attracts poor duplicate questions from beginners.
 
sure, yeah, all of the above
 
@KevinB Mods can only refund a bounty. So if their question has been bountied for several days, it would be counterproductive to give them back the rep they spent (would be a free promotion)
In Tyler's case, the bounty was less than an hour old
 
i mean, i'd rather they get the free promotion and the post end up closed and eventually roomba'd than an off topic post receive more promotion
the goal is the end state of the post, not the reputation spent/earned
 
4:13 PM
You can also close and delete the question after they have wasted their bounty.
 
4:26 PM
I really don't care about wasting someone rep. Moderation should happen soon and often.
I don't vote down people post to remove 2 rep from them, but because the post deserve the downvote.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:18 PM
 
6:31 PM
agh, just discovered the mess that is Lottie tags while cleaning up some airbnb questions
there's like 6 of 'em ffs
Honestly becoming a mod would almost be worth it just for the ability to cleanup tags easily
 
i'd mostly use it to spread 🚽 into mod only chats
 
7:24 PM
@KevinB I'm sure it's already there
Feels like 2015... I have two pending tag wiki excerpt edits in the queue at the same time
Not gonna miss that feeling once I hit 20k
 
@TylerH Coming soon, at a Website near you ...
 
Where "soon" means "maybe by the end of the year"
I gotta stop downvoting so many answers
23 downvotes applied to answers in the last 5 days
I think that's about average
 
Meh. Just answer 2 SQL/PHP questions ... 500 rep. in extra no time.
 
Heh
I left PHP behind in 2015
don't wanna go back
then again, I was still using Dreamweaver (8, I think?) Maybe something like PHPStorm or Eclipse would be better
 
7:49 PM
@AdrianMole I wish. PHP has the opposite problem. 90% are low quality or dupes. Even if you find one that's decent, you often won't get upvotes for it
@TylerH PHPStorm is awesome
 
@Machavity Answering in Android is a long-term game. Rarely do you get immediate upvotes, but you get a wide audience...eventually.
 
The little bit i've seen of the android tag, it seems... absurd
 
@KevinB I'm not disagreeing, but in what way?
 
extremely low quality content, getting tons of upvotes
 
Are you by any chance referring to a meta question I answered the other day?
 
7:52 PM
Come over to JS. Saw one question that wast literally just a typo. Missing bracket or similar. Q had 3 upvotes, A had 5. Fun times. Answering a dupe has a high chance of getting you at least one upvote. And with the rate of dupes being posted, you can probably get the repcap by just having a handy list of code to copy/paste and slightly modify.
 
eh, that's just one example
if its the one i think it is
the 2 audits
 
Well, 2 examples, but yes :D
 
eh, one of the two didn't ahve an android tag, :p
 
Well it does as of the other day when I added it...
 
but all the same, it just seems dominated by a community determined to fight against quality control
 
7:53 PM
@KevinB Dunno if you've seen it. It was closed pretty quickly. Just not quickly enough. I was floored when I opened the question.
 
@VLAZ Yeah with this being a website about programming questions, the most popular web language is always gonna be the lowest bar
 
It was a while ago. Maybe last year, can't remember.
 
The two cases where I see bad Android tag questions get upvoted are: 1) some update broke something and everyone's having the same problem, 2) someone bountied it
 
JS has cleaned up its structure quite a bit from the early days though
 
But yes the tag is a mess. Virtually every CV queue question I review is in that tag (I filter to [android] [android-studio] [kotlin]). I have 14k CV queue reviews.
 
7:55 PM
yeah, i mean, back then, i just answered anything that looked interesting or that i felt could get me a little rep
just fishing for accepts
quantity > quality
if the goal is rep, there's no reason to fuss over quality when you can just spend the time posting more answers
 
is, of course, because people often ask questions there.
 
I have a feeling that 3 people took to fix the same tag at the same time
 
8:26 PM
 
8:40 PM
> I'm not the downvoter btw, and counter-upvoted both the question and your self-answer
 
@KevinB Well, lets see if any of the moderator candidates address that issue...
 
what would a moderator do about it
 
Dunno ... talk to staff?
 
🤪
 
... but, if a candidate stood on a clear, Let's stop the rep-hungry eejits... ticket, and won, then there'd be a reason for staff to at least listen ...
 
8:52 PM
i mean
lets not forget who votes for candidates
 
innit
Staff have votes, IIUC.
 
staff do have votes but it's stillj ust 1 each
of course, they are privy to other information that could, y'know, disqualify a candidate
 
i was more alluding to the majority do the voting, not just the meta crowd. though... i do wonder what the breakdown is, as far as people who participate on meta, read meta, or don't visit meta at all
 
@TylerH Really? Do you know what jerrymandering is?
 
There's a lot of effort to get people to visit the election page and vote in terms of announcements and notifications, even emails
@AdrianMole oh yes, I hate it :-)
staff don't need jerrymandering when they have veto rights :-P
 
8:56 PM
hehe
 
given there's a rather large anti-moderation crowd out there, if they actually engaged in voting, running on cracking down on "helping people" would be problematic
 
I don't know. Elections can sometime produce surprising outcomes.
 
but boy it would be fascinating to see votes split up into identifiable blocs, e.g. "the JS bloc votes for candidates A, B, and C", "the Meta bloc votes for candidates B, C, and F", etc.
Usually you can tell who has a chance and who doesn't in an election, but sometimes there can be absolute shockers
 
Something like 30,000 votes, I think. Can't all be fools?
 
whoa
which ones are the fools
 
8:58 PM
Those who vote for the wrong candidate(s)?
 
@KevinB This is why you use the GOP playbook. Make them think cracking down will help them because they're the diamonds in the rough
 
i vote purely based on highest downvote to upvote ratio, in order
 
I probably secured Kevin's vote, then (nb: I'm not actually running)
 
I'd be stuffed.
... I'd rather use delete votes.
 
@AdrianMole I've only cast ~4.1k of those :-(
 
9:00 PM
Feature request I've been meaning to write up: incorporate reviews into candidate score
 
they are
 
Hmm. There are some very good curators who don't hog the review queues.
 
...apart from several badges worth 1 each
 
Only in terms of badges
 
i haven't reviewed 1000 things any any single queue, and therefore don't have 40
 
9:02 PM
I'd like to see reviews as an alternative way to get the 20k-rep points, for instance
Basically I'm saying my candidate score ought to be higher ;-)
 
alternative ways to reach 40, i like
 
But actually I do believe that it would be a net positive, even if it would happen to benefit me in particular.
 
but my main issue iwth the candidate score existing at all is it's effectively the staff creating a "score" that will heavily influence the outcome
 
I think we should keep rep separate, but I agree review counts should be added
 
Like maybe count 1 review the same as 1 rep, for instance, adding the scores together.
 
9:04 PM
i'd rather the stats just be there and you can decide amongst yourself which stats you think matter
 
we should really up the max score. Add another 10 points or something, split between the review queues
 
Oh, that I like...
 
1 point for every 1k reviews across the CV, Reopen, Suggested Edit queues, etc.
or 2k
 
Max score 50, 10 can only come from rep, 10 can only come from reviews, 10 can come from a combo of the two, and then the 20 badges.
 
since we don't want to seem to encourage people roboreviewing for just the badge at 1k (or is it 500 that you get it? I forget)
 
9:06 PM
1k
 
Also I'm still mildly salty that Sportsmanship is one of them, because it's realllllly hard to get that one on SO...at least in certain tags.
 
i don't quite get why an answering badge is involved
 
Without specifically aiming for it, anyway, in ways that are not necessarily useful to the site.
 
like, across 2300 answers i only felt the need to edit 2 dozen of the questions they're on
 
@KevinB Oh, I sort of like that badge...it reminds me that touching up questions I answer is a good idea.
 
9:09 PM
seems frivolous to me, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it's not like I don't edit at all, I have 1400. it just seems really rare for questions worth answering to need editing
and to penalize someone running for mod because they didn't get enough of them?
 
This question was definitely worth answering: the answer's at +21 (and I know for a fact that it's proved useful to at least one person on the Android team at Google, even), but the question as originally written was not amazing.
 
i mean, i have 26/50, i'm sure i can dig up an example or two
kinda not what i'm saying
it's a good badge
 
Ah, but it shouldn't be one of the candidate score ones? Fair.
 
@RyanM Oh yeah, I am still quite a ways away from that one
Largely due to not answering much anymore
I'm only at 56 out of 100 somehow
 
9:22 PM
> Up vote 100 answers on questions where an answer of yours has a positive score.
i got that in 2012
lol
 
yeah but JS shouldn't count
:-P
every JS question has 5 answers, and at least 50% of them are all the same
 
but i'd also argue that shouldn't be a candidate score badge
 
Yeah, I agree with that
It's something almost entirely outside of your control
 
one that promotes upvoting frivolously?
 
@TylerH I even have the badge elsewhere! It's not like I don't vote up competing answers. I have it on MSE and I'm at 34 on Law (out of my 72 answers). But I only have 2/100 here.
 
9:24 PM
@RyanM Yikes, that is pretty low, even for SO
Especially considering you have almost 400 answers
 
I mostly answer questions that don't already have a correct answer.
If there's a correct answer, I upvote it instead.
 
@TylerH Heh, I answered a question by showing two approaches with links to appropriate documentation and explanation. In the mean time, two people posted each of the approaches as basically "Here is the code". They both got an upvote, I got a downvote, I assume because I "copied" them.
 
So... if we didn't have candidate score at all, what would you think?
 
I'm guessing i got it through chasing the badge
 
@VLAZ oh yeah congrats on 20k if I haven't said that before
 
9:25 PM
(I'm not a big fan of candidate score, to be honest)
 
@Catija would their relevant stats still be visible?
 
I don't know - what do you think would be valuable to recognize without having an out and out score?
 
The score is far from perfect I agree but it exists for a good reason-- those scores tell us at a glance how involved the user is on the site
 
@TylerH Thanks! Can't remember if you said it but I'd appreciate it again in either case :) You're not far off yourself.
 
@Catija I think the "moderation" badges and other moderation activities (flags, reviews, etc) are the most important metrics in terms of numerical things
 
9:27 PM
Review stats, flagging stats, voting stats (including closure/deletion,) and badge count per category with a link to expand. leave it up to the candidates to clarify if their flagging stats are inflated by an automated system
 
E.g. Do they vote? Do they review? Do they flag? Do they edit?
All else aside, those are some of the most important qualities
 
@TylerH Except it doesn't? I mean, if it only considered the last year, it might... but someone could cap at 40 and then run in an election every time without recent participation at all.
 
I'd also be interested in the candidate's Meta participation. At least at a glance to gauge if they are active there or not.
 
@Catija Just because someone is inactive for a year doesn't mean they didn't still earn those badges or gain that experience
You let mods take years-long hiatuses while still being mods so I don't see a difference between earning a 40 score in 2012 and then not doing anything for 4 years then running for mod in 2016
 
R/A this? Looking at the comments on awful question looks like a troll. stackoverflow.com/q/69321171/7508700
 
9:30 PM
@DavidBuck Yeah, nuke it. trolling
 
^
 
Could also be sock puppetry going on with that answerer
 
Tbh we’re the wrong people to ask
 
Sure, but it feels kinda weird (to me) that someone who's been doing nothing for the last year is signing up to be a mod... are they going to continue to do nothing after winning?
 
@NathanOliver I'm 100% sure it is a sock puppet answerer
@Catija Well, you have the stipulation of 30 minutes a day, I presume that's partly mentioned as a way to have cause for mod separation
 
9:32 PM
For almost any candidate that might run, the people here know what we want to see and how to get it
 
It did get me curious - what is ?
 
@TylerH We never actually action that, though.
 
but again it's all sorta moot since we don't have term limits for mods...
 
...completely off the wall suggestion. What about dropping the candidate score entirely, and replacing it with a button that shows someone, say, 30 random things that person's done on the site in the last half a year or so? Reviews, comments, meta posts, meta comments (incl. deleted posts/ comments)
 
If you looked at my recent stats, it’d look like I’ve been inactive for 3-4 years
 
9:32 PM
@TylerH Of my 255 positively scored answers, only 44 of them were posted on questions that had another answer at the time.
 
@KevinB Here, yes... but anyone with enough rep can vote and I'll bet that there are way more of them than y'all. :P
 
Right. I think it's a case of soft bumpers being effective enough. If someone has been inactive for 4 years, they aren't likely to run. If they do, they aren't likely to win. So the problem takes care of itself, more or less.
 
@DavidBuck I've custom flagged it, if people want to throw red flags at it.
 
@cigien I put a few red flags on the posts and comments
@Slate that'd be interesting to see a mockup or A/B test of :-)
 
@miken32 Sorry, that was a misping, you can ignore it.
 
9:34 PM
Like, imo, the main problem with the score is that they give folks a shortcut to bypass an actual review of whether they understand how to use and moderate the site... and to be fair, that info isn't very discoverable. Instead of summarizing it numerically, what if we just added a convenient way to see that?
 
@Slate I think that'd be better
 
Sort of related: I think more stats would be useful. Like this person has done X reviews, posted Y comments, cast Z close/delete/reopen/undelete votes...
 
"Hey, this user has done 2000 reviews in the last 6 months" is more useful than "this user has done 1000 reviews over their whole lifetime", more or less
 
@Slate I'd prefer something at a glance. I can go and visit their profile and examine in more details, if really needed. I'd prefer some information that tries to showcase their activity - flags, votes, reviews, that sort of stuff. To just get a peek.
 
And that could be broken down into recent/total, too.
 
9:35 PM
We could also separate the candidate score into buckets of actions for the last year -
Reviews - N
Edits - M
Comments - P
Meta posts - Q
Meta comments - J
Votes - Z up/R down
Answers - L
Questions - E
(ETC)
 
Bummer but I have to run; this is a good conversation :-(
 
It's the NMPQJZRLE method!
 
@Catija That seems OK.
 
@TylerH Mockup, maybe... A/B test would be a bit too... uh... I'd be concerned about us getting too close to who voted for whom.
 
@RyanM I eventually came to realize that the Sportsmanship badge was encouraging taking custodianship of the Q&A which you answer. In some tags it might be possible to get that badge just by interacting with the question and answers when answering. However, what I found was that I was not even close to getting it based on interacting with questions and answers while I was answering them, or even some when I revisited due to a comment, etc.
While answering, I would normally upvote any answers which I felt were good at the time. Prior to actually checking, I even thought that it wasn't possible for me to get that badge, due to a lack of other answers on the substantial majority of questions which I had answered.
Prior to being a moderator, in order to see if it was even possible for me to get the Sportsmanship badge, I revisited all the questions which I had answered (or, at least most of them). I found that there was a considerable amount of moderation which I could, and should, do on those questions, and that many answers had been added after I'd completed my interactions with the question.
I found that the questions and new answers could use a significant amount of moderation actions, edits, voting, up, down, and delete, and even some question close-votes.
Overall, that badge, at least for me, represents going back and taking an additional look at all those questions, which came to feel like taking custodianship for making sure those questions which I'd answered had appropriate moderation actions taken, even well after I had posted my answer.
 
9:36 PM
@Catija Can we exclude Q&A posting as part of the metric? You don't need to ask or answer to be a moderator
 
@Catija Yes that's true; I guess I was thinking more of "A/B mockups" to be more precise :-D
 
@NathanOliver Sure. They're at the bottom because I don't really feel strongly about them.
 
@Catija That looks like an interesting list. I'd add flags, close-votes, and delete-votes.
 
@Makyen I forgot flags - they should definitely be in there.
The others, too. :)
@TylerH Ah, sure. :)
 
9:38 PM
@NathanOliver I don't think there should be a "you need <this> score to enter". Well, perhaps some criteria for eligibility, sure but I'd be interested if the mod is still active with Q&A or not. I don't think that information by itself would sway my vote but it's for building a fuller picture of the candidate.
 
@Makyen That's an excellent point (although 100 is still a lofty goal, especially given that despite having 400 answers, I only have 100 on Sportsmanship-eligible questions). I actually was going through some Sportsmanship-eligible questions and did find some that I should upvote...and now have.
I do worry that the goal of 100 is high enough to encourage unproductive practices to get there, though.
It'd be nice if the badge tooltip had a button to find eligible questions (I wrote an SEDE query, but of course that's not within everyone's area of expertise, even among programmers).
 
*facepalm* pertaining an earlier discussion - somebody just answered a JS question with (essentially) "function() => this.name is wrong, this is correct () => this.name" and got 5 upvotes for it.
 
@Catija Helpful flags is an excellent proxy for how much moderator time a candidate would save if they were a moderator themself ;-)
 
@RyanM Ah, true. We don't necessarily want to look at flags raised only - if they're largely declined, that's probably not good. :P
 
9:54 PM
Maybe % declined would be useful, too. Although I'd be slightly more hesitant there, because people already worry a bit too much about declined flags sometimes.
Could round it, maybe, or have a cap on what it'll show. Like 95%+ is the highest, or 98%+, or something, so that you can toss in a risky flag that you think is worthwhile every now and then.
 
I was thinking something else like Meta posts: Q with median score A - something that helps to identify people who are able to explain things well that others support?
I think that there's so many soft skills (meta participation, mod messaging, etc) that are beneficial in moderators, it makes sense to emphasize metrics that might indicate expertise.
 
That seems very good: it also identifies the sort of engagement with the community that moderators need (along with, as you say, the soft skills to do it)
 
Yep
 
I'm still super amused that my third-highest-voted MSE answer is nitpicking the grammar on a job description...
It wasn't even especially responsive to the question 🙈
 
I actually think it’d be neat to list a few of their top meta posts
 
10:03 PM
Sure, I think that's where @Slate's idea comes in - we can include the stats with links to either a random collection of items or some of their top items.
 
@Catija Could you clarify this metric? Is it one's score on meta posts?
 
@cigien It'd be the count of meta posts (questions plus answers) with the median score of those answers. I'm not sure aggregate score is very good because of outliers making someone look really popular.
popular is the wrong word but I'm tired and sitting in the sun, so I'm getting brain fog.
 
Could also be super negative, from just presenting an unpopular opinion
 
If your posts are scored (in order) -5, 3, 10, 12, 180, the median would be 10 but the aggregate would be 200. While someone whose posts score 10 each would only be scoring 50 but the median would still be 10.
 
10:20 PM
@Catija Along those lines, I wonder how, if at all, to handle posts which have been dissociated from the user. Dissociation is a right that a user does and should have, so I'm not sure if they should even be considered (certainly not identified). However, being willing to stand up and take responsibility for your actions is, IMO, a very important quality in a moderator, even if that comes with other people having a negative response to your actions/opinions.
Another portion of that is that it is important for mods to have the emotional well-being, stability, toughness?, centeredness? in order to be able to cope with people with dissenting views, and to be able to at least shrug-off the vitriol which often comes in response to many mod messages.
I'd be concerned that for a user with notable dissociated posts, particularly on meta, having metrics about meta participation based on post score could give a impression of the person that is significantly skewed from what their overall participation really has been.
At a minimum, it's a metric which (some) people could game through dissociating appropriate posts, even if they had not felt the need when the post was active.
On the other hand, somehow distilling the user's participation into a metric would be helpful, rather than interested users having to search through a users posts.
Hmmm... maybe a sidebar where other users could, during the election, mark posts by the user as ones which were helpful for them to get an impression of the user?
 
@Catija I guess what i meant was, what we see as important doesn't necessarily translate to what an avg user would see as important. but I guess what really matters is what info shows that the user can do the job that is expected of them if elected as a mod
 
@Catija I see, thanks. I'm not sure what that metric says about a user though. One could only post answers to sitters, i.e. "yeah, that's an obviously good question, and should never have been closed", or post questions that say "Should this <link to terrible question> be closed?" and get lots of upvotes.
On the other hand, especially when it comes to questions, the ones that IMO are really useful are the sort that make users look at things differently, or are about some seemingly subtle aspect of site mechanics. These posts tend to get a very large number of both up and down votes.
So maybe (and I certainly haven't given this a lot of thought), a better metric would be to score based on the up/down vote differences. A user with a high score in this regard is at least creating useful conversation that the community cares about.
FWIW, from my personal experience on meta, my highest scoring posts are fairly obvious; they're just agreeing with popular opinion (hence the upvotes). But the posts that I think are interesting (useful), get lots of downvotes (as they should since there isn't yet a consensus).
 
from my perspective, it's x% mindlessly processing review queues, and y% mediating people
where the values vary from mod to mod
 
@Makyen It'd be difficult anyway, since the system may struggle to identify those posts as having belonged to them at one point. So we'd likely have to ignore them. Those requests are also extremely rare, so I'm not too concerned.
 
but i've never held the position, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't like to treat it as electing representation
 
10:25 PM
@Catija Helpful flags, edits, up/down votes, close votes, delete votes, reviews in the past year. This would be the most useful metric to decide who to vote. It must be shown separately though as some people mostly edit but don't do anything else.
2
 
@KevinB Right but... If you were a low-ish rep user, I think that you're more likely to just look at the candidate score and nothing else. By giving a series of stats rather than a single number, it forces voters to think a bit more about what those stats mean or judge based on experience with the candidate directly (e.g meta posts or comments on their own posts).
@cigien Sure, and that's where Slate's idea comes in - we don't leave those numbers as bare statistics, we link to a sampling or make some sort of modal that opens on the page with them, so that people can actually see the contributions easily rather than relying on the stats alone. But considering the participation on meta in general, in my mind, even those examples are better than zero participation in some cases.
 
The candidate score could still be calculated, but not based on predefined badges or reputation, but based on the metrics I listed above.
 
@cigien "Score" is the difference between the votes up and down - right? If someone's post is 10/-3, the score is 7. Or am I missing something.
 
e.g. Every 100 flags/year is +1 point
 
I'm really hesitant to aggregate the score - it becomes too easy to just base the vote on a single number and that's what I don't like. If they have to look at 6-8 numbers or read the candidate's nomination or the questionnaire, they might actually read more of the actual statements and answers from the candidate rather than just finding the people with the highest score.
 
10:31 PM
@Dharman accuracy must be taken into account, though (unless you equate flags and helpful flags, of course)
 
Plus, if it's aggregated, you have to choose how to weight the individual contributions.
@Dharman I've already mentioned how important I think meta participation is - your stats would only recognize people who were good curators, not necessarily people who had the ability to deal with other community members well.
 
@OlegValter Yes, just helpful flags
Participation on Meta is very difficult
There rarely are good new topics.
 
@Dharman sounds good then. I'd exclude NLN flags on comments too (unless, again, you only count post flags), they are just too easy to farm
 
@OlegValter NAA flags are just as easy
 
@Catija I guess that was unclear. What I mean is that a vote count of +40/-40 should "score" higher than +70/-10 as the metric i.e the same number of people voted on both posts, but one was contentious.
 
10:35 PM
@Dharman well, they can be excluded too :) or given less of a weight then
 
@Catija Yes, that would be preferable to just having a raw score, however well calculated. Not every voter does their research unfortunately, but there's no getting around that I guess.
 
@Dharman I disagree. But, again, I feel like any meta participation is a better indicator than nothing. But not taking it into account at all means that you can end up with people who are good at queues but not necessarily great at people. I know that we've marketed moderation as queue work (flag handling) but there's so much more to it and the people side of it is very important to have - not necessarily for every mod, but for at least some of them.
@cigien Can you talk about why you think that? Do you have examples that you'd point at of posts that are in that situation but worthy of being highly valued?
 
... I don't know how that proves anything.
Taking one negatively scoring post and saying that it's the average post for MSO is... not particularly helpful to the conversation.
 
No, but it's representative of what I find there daily
I just opened the second question and deleted it too
If there is a good question then it's usually answered quickly by one of many frequent visitors
People who want to rate candidate based on their meta participation can always open their meta profile and check latest posts
but I would not use it as a metric of whether they would be a good moderator
 
10:47 PM
Why is that a problem? Those are likely to be the people more interested in running for an election as a moderator. Also, I'll be honest. Good answers to negatively scoring questions (particularly considering how people vote on meta) are very valuable, so I don't really understand why a bad question is a problem.
 
@Catija I mentioned it above briefly, but essentially, when I see a post on meta with lots of up and downvotes, it's usually an interesting discussion, and I have to think hard about how I feel about the topic being discussed. When I see a post with lots of only one kind of vote, I don't, because it's, well, obvious what the "right" answer is. (Obviously, there will be exceptions for both cases).
As far as correlation with ability to be a good moderator, I would value someone with the ability to create interesting discussions, over someone who just repeats the consensus. I'm not saying that those answers are useless; articulating the consensus is a valuable skill to have, but that's not apparent just from the score.
I'd rather not share specific links, but I'm sure a relatively straightforward SEDE query would yield lots of highly scored answers that are barely more than a few lines, and add nothing of value to the discussion.
 
@Dharman Are you missing a "not" in there or are you just agreeing with me and we've been confused?
 
All I am saying is that it's difficult to find an answerable question on Meta. Not impossible, because I still manage to post few answers each month, but definitely not easy. You can't just go on Meta and start answering. You have to hunt and constantly watch Meta.
 
You can - I did it just this morning.
I'm not on MSO constantly but I still find discussions to participate in and questions I can answer.
 
I have only 53 answers on MSO in the past year. Is this enough to judge me as a candidate for moderator?
 
10:56 PM
"only"? That's a lot. I'll bet it's more than many of the current mods (please don't strike me down for saying that, y'all)
 
it's only 1 answer/week
it says that I am not very active on meta
 
I only have 80 total
 
@cigien while this is an interesting perspective, methinks it also means that the person in question is more likely to create divisive content which is probably is not the best trait to have if we are speaking about moderation. Of course, it is not a guaranteed issue too
 
@Catija - Without a candidate score, users would then just feel the need to spout even more stats in their nomination text. While the score mostly represents badges, there are associated milestones there which do add weight. Removing it would just put it in a different place, and perhaps underemphasize certain aspects that most users don't highlight (for example, editing)
 
@TravisJ I mean, if we post the stats for them, they won't need to spout them. :P
They're more likely to save the space in their nomination for substantive information rather than stats.
 
10:58 PM
@Catija - Yeah, you could create some sort of mini dashboard that gets put near candidates. Seems like it become overkill though
Sometimes though, the stats are some of the most substantive part of the nomination.
 
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