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00:00
@Dharman They're already marked as dupe's
I don’t understand why stackoverflow.com/questions/62785246/… has 114 upvotes
@sideshowbarker Whoa! It only got viewed 83 times. The user is using sock-puppet(s)
@10Rep OK yeah I should have thought to glance at the view count. That’s a lot of sock puppets. You flagged it already? Or should I?
@sideshowbarker Don't worry, I flagged it.
@10Rep cheers :)
00:03
Though I must repsect him for creating that many sockpuppet :). Lots of accounts to handle.
haha yeah
after all, it got viewed 83 times.
How do you even get more upvotes than views, even with sockpuppets?
@sideshowbarker By the looks of it probably very serious voting fraud. However, there is not enough details to be sure. It could be that they shared it somewhere and people voted by proxy. It's a very weird situation indeed.
00:04
@RyanM API does not view the page
Anyone know how to deal with the "Too many request" error? My IP access to the main site has been "temporarily suspended" (rene's script, no doubt). Do I just wait a while?
@RyanM The number of views is calculated by unique IP address. With sockpuppet, they are the same public IP.
If you scrape content and use API to give people an ability to vote, you could have more votes than views and they would be probably legitimate
@AdrianMole Wait
@AdrianMole you checked the value of the Retry-After response header?
00:06
Dunno what that is.
@AdrianMole The only things you can do is wait for it to expire, or use a different IP (reboot router, if you have a dynamic public IP; use a VPN; or use a proxy).
How long, typically? (I was running the script a lot, though - and I remember he warned me about that.)
the Retry-After response header should tell you how long to wait before retrying
Where do I get to see that?
Not really a problem - I'm half-way through my last beer, then off to the land of Nod.
by looking at the response headers programatically or else using the Network pane in browser devtools to inspect the response
00:09
@AdrianMole It's going to depend. Typically, it's in the 15 minute range, but there have been times when SE's config has been broken and the block has been days. In the latter case, it was necessary to report it, as it would have never been lifted.
Not a problem. If it's not sorted out by the morning, then I shall go to work and get in touch with someone from there.
@sideshowbarker I don't recall that being in the response for the general IP block, but I might have missed it. It is in the response when you're blocked by the SE API, which is a separate block.
Rebooted my router but still get the same IP. So ... wait ...
@AdrianMole Yeah, how successful that will be will depend on how your provider has your network connection configured. If you have a separate router and modem, it may be the modem which needs to be rebooted. From the same provider, I've see service where the IP address is dynamic and service where it's static (without the customer having requested one or the other, or even having a clue as to what's being talked about).
00:22
I don't really "do" network tech (other than as a layman). My router plugs directly into the fibre-optic cable. All I can do is cut the power and restart.
... I guess cutting the cable won't help? :-)
Yeah, that is ... counter-indicated. :)
@AdrianMole It will stop you having that IP, at least. Getting a new one may prove difficult, though.
@AdrianMole You don’t have any VPN available I guess?
I do have a VPN account but it's 'in limbo' (they want money - I only pay for a month when I'm away somewhere like China). But all is resolved, now - access restored.
00:44
@RyanM Hi, concerning your comment on stackoverflow.com/questions/62798372/… I think we should not recommend to add video, even for UI-issues ?
^^^beside of that I added it to my cancom
@Vickel Some UI issues require a video to really understand, especially around transitions. I don't have any issue with videos that aren't of code. Is there a reason that you think they're unhelpful? (perhaps it should be clarified that the video should be uploaded to the post)
but I've seen some very helpful GIFs
@RyanM the problem IMO to recommend to a new user adding a video, even limited to the context you mentioned, might open the floodgates, and suddenly we are in you-tube mode
@RyanM me too
01:02
@Vickel Yeah, good point...do you know if SO lets you upload videos via the i.stack.imgur thing?
@RyanM never tried, probably not as I only remember seeing links to videos. I'm still reworking the comment, because it should talk about leaving a working snippet as well
@RyanM OK, how about this:
"*It doesn't work*" isn't descriptive enough to help people understand your problem. Instead, explain what the exact observed behavior is and what the expected/intended behavior should be.
Include example inputs, expected/actual outputs and the exact text of error messages, including the full stack trace of any exceptions, if applicable,
as well as which line of code the stack trace points to.
For UI issues, a screenshot could be helpful. Use the SO-snippet to show us a runnable JavaScript, CSS, and HTML Code example of your problem.
That might work, except 95% of the questions I target this at are Android questions. I actually edit it down (it links to info on stack traces) for questions I see here.
So if it needs motion, I really need a video
01:22
@RyanM yes sure, anyway, just checked with SO-imgur, only images allowed, even if you select all files, a video is not uploadable
ugh. that's unfortunate.
@RyanM animated gifs are a nice option.
@RyanM gifs work
@RyanM I've seen a few (very few) members here using them to good effect.
@RyanM GIFs can be uploaded, so you can do screen recordings.
01:30
@RyanM I think images are limited to 2Mb...But besides that...
any good "how to convert a screen recording to GIF" that I could link?
@Makyen Annnd... I should read the rest of the transcript prior to replying... :;
@RyanM let me know when you find one.
@Makyen by all means, it's always good to interact with you.
@RyanM That's going to depend on the current format. There are a variety of screen recording applications which will have GIF as a native output format. In fact, GIF often significantly better than many movie formats, because it doesn't use human perception-centered compression (i.e. compression algorithms intended for actual movies, which are not that great for UI content).
@bad_coder Thanks. :)
dbc
dbc
02:05
How do you close Will there be a port of jeddict on Netbeans 11?? Is it POB, Seeking Recommendation, or something else? (It's an question).
Or do we ask the author to tag it reasonably?
And how to close this, if at all? Where is the GYRT in swapkown? - I did some Google searching and the only thing that came up was a page that said I don't need to actually figure this out, it's just a test to see whether I am good at looking for help. Is it "No Longer Reproducible"? It's and there's no or tag...
02:24
@dbc If you can't get a good idea about what the question is about, or what it might be about, then that's a fairly good indicator that it's "Needs details or clarity (Unclear)".
dbc
dbc
@Makyen Works for me.
@dbc Man that question was just too meta for me.
Couldn't find the target page on archive.org, but I did find this google cached version: webcache.googleusercontent.com/…
@dbc The title appears to be asking us to prognosticate about future events, which is generally considered opinion based. It's unclear to me if the question body is asking about the future or the present. If it's asking about the present, then it's an answerable question and the title should be edited. If it's really asking about the future, then it should be closed. Given that it's unclear...
@Makyen "appears to be asking for prognostic about future events" They need a fortune teller.
@Makyen let me see into the future, mmmmm, your will be closed!! Did I get that right? :D
@bad_coder I'd consider that to be likely. :)
02:33
@Makyen well, it may have been asking about the future in the past, but as members of the even more distant future, we can actually see into their future and answer the question in the affirmative
@RyanM True. Ironically, I did first try to check to see if we could now answer the question. However, the link I tried only had up to NetBeans 10.0. I guess I should have tried more links. Thanks for finding that.
I could fix the question and answer it.
@RyanM That is the much better solution.
Doing so now.
Sounds good.
02:42
aaaand done. Changed the question to ask whether it is possible, rather than if it will be, and answered.
@RyanM Looks good. Thanks for doing the work.
No problem. Got me the Refiner badge, too :D
dbc
dbc
Thanks from me also.
Thanks Ryan, what a super star! (I feel like my 3rd grade teacher)
That OP has been around. I wonder if they will notice and accept.
Yeah, I looked after answering. Last around Jun 3, so not a frequent visitor, but they show up. Hopefully a nice surprise for them (and maybe me) when they're back.
02:57
Hey, maybe it will be a hot network question.
Is this NAA, or am I just being grumpy? It does say the slope is negative. stackoverflow.com/a/62806552
@IanCampbell hmm, maybe flag for mod and ask for it to be converted to a comment?
It's more of a request for clarification than an answer, but it is constructive and useful
@NobodyNada Probably not worth making more work for a mod. I'll just leave it. Thanks
Let me ask the room members for their opinions. I will not offer the page link because I have posted an answer to the question. The question was originally Too Broad, then was edited to be sufficiently narrow with a clear mcve. The page was closed and I feel that there isn't anything to improve and that it should be reopened. Admittedly, it is very localized, but Too Localized is no longer a close reason.
I asked Dharman if he felt it should be reopened and he say, no. DELETE EVERYTHING! ...nah just kidding he didn't say that. But he did say that because it was so localized that there was no value in reopening it.
I suppose I could offer the link if someone needs more context, but I cannot reopen-pls due to the rules here.
03:12
@mickmackusa "Too Localized" has been reworded to "Not reproducible or was caused by a typo: While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a way less likely to help future readers." Is the question so localized as to be unhelpful to anyone else, ever?
Ah, indeed it is. But my question remains about public opinion.
OK, well, you can link it if you want to bring it up. I'll let me vote speak for my answer. ;)
What we cannot predict is if anyone will ever visit the page and find it helpful. To be helpful, a researcher does not need to have an identical problem.
I guess I just don't like the idea that a question which has been sufficiently narrowed down should be disregarded as valuable BECAUSE it is a snowflake case.
I'd try to broaden the title to improve it (removing "<h2> and <h3>" in particular), but otherwise it seems fine, I could see someone wanting to do that.
I'd have voted to reopen if I'd gotten around to reading the whole thing and your answer.
@mickmackusa I feel like it's useful enough to stay open. Sure, it's a bit on the narrow side, but it's definitely conceivable that someone else might want to auto-generate anchors from the text of a page.
03:18
If it was...I dunno, something crazy specific, like also it must be a prime number of characters and their prime-numberifying code was broken, then maybe I could see an argument.
But this question seems fine.
I think the new version of that close reason also narrows the scope considerably to avoid sweeping judgements about what's too localized
So "localized, but not so localized that actually the issue has nothing to do with the thing you're asking how to solve" should be reopened/left open
What's the proper request in cases like the above? Cv-pls the question and del-pls the answer? Or just cv-pls the question and flag the answer as NAA?
You can let Roomba take care of it for you in 10 days. Although it's possible the OP would accept their answer in the interim.
03:48
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica for an NAA that blatant, I would (and did) flag it as NAA.
the LQP queue should clean it up pretty soon - no need for any extra requests in here
04:09
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica Well, technically, it's not NAA, because the question is explicitly asking for resources.
04:30
@Makyen IMHO, an example or guide in an answer would be an answer. A link to an example or guide is not.
04:44
@RyanM In general, I agree, but the question appears to be asking for people to find such, rather than to tell the OP how to do it in an answer. Now that the answer is deleted, it would be possible to reword the question to a "How do I X".
04:59
I certainly hope their teacher gave them more instructions than that (above cv-pls) in their homework...
@RyanM Sometimes I see some of these homework questions, and I am reminded of the extreme privilege I have been provided in life.
@IanCampbell I am reminded of that from time to time myself as well, although not from homework questions posted on Stack Overflow...I'm not sure I see the connection in this particular case.
Hehe, just that I got an education where no one asked me to answer such impossibly ridiculous questions.
I'm frankly not certain that is a homework question, it's almost too weird.
If it is, hopefully it's an advanced NLP course or something.
Haha, well played
05:10
I fixed the formatting and it's a little more obvious with the linebreaks, but still lacking in details/clarity/focus
 
1 hour later…
When I go to my profile page under "Edit email settings", I can see my own current email. I expect this is the email that is also used at my login, and I change that, I'll have to login with the new email (probably after verifying it).
I was under the impression that moderators had access to this information too. So that they can see the email I've chosen to login with. Am I under the wrong impression?
I believe they can see your email after they clicked the button "show PII", and that click is logged and audited
Or an implementation that resembles that.
You glossed over the details about blood sacrifices and ritual dances, but close enough
Your email isn't necessarily the same as your login identity. You can have multiple login credentials associated with your account.
@rene Ok. Thanks :)
@CodyGray That confuses me. I do not understand how that works at all. But my understanding is that if I log in using my Facebook credentials, I can then associate that with my current account?
I actually don't know. I have only ever used one set of login credentials for the past ~10 years.
06:36
I have...two or three.
But it has been many years since I set it up...
Me too.. I don't like to mix accounts over several distinct sites. I find it makes me track'able, even if I do not know exactly how it works.
I believe the answer is "no" and you need to do a credential-linking dance
@Scratte you've found this page: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/793/… right?
@Scratte fun fact: they will absolutely do this even with just the same email
"unlimited number of logins," you say...
^^ Trust the Googler.
06:38
@rene I didn't find this. Thank you. My question was inspired by an earlier conversation here with two deleted messages. I assumed that one of those were an email, which confused me, since I thought moderators could easily see this information.
oh, ha, yep, three. One personal Google account and one for every job.
Do you guys have internal, company-wide seminars on privacy violations? Or is it expected you already know that when you're hired? :-p
@CodyGray I discuss that between the 5 of us every day. Does that count?
@Scratte If you're talking about the one that involved me, um, derp. I kind of forgot that mods can see this. But we're really only supposed to look at it for official mod business, so what I should have done was just asked for consent to go look at it.
@RyanM But it makes it a little harder for them when 1. Not using the same browser for different sites, and 2. Not using any DNS that looks like Google.
06:40
@rene Did Google replant their flowerbeds?
@CodyGray Actually yes (they aren't company-wide because there are a lot of us), privacy and the importance of safeguarding user data is drilled into us quite heavily
@CodyGray yes, and watered them
@CodyGray I prefer to not involve you in any derp :)
That's probably beest; I seem to involve myself in plenty without any help
@Scratte Oh, no, I don't mean Google...I know this from a different job, which I won't name in part because I have no idea if they're still doing this, and I'm not even sure if they did it when I was there. There are services where other services a hash of your email address for advertising purposes, and then that info is correlated with info from other services.
06:42
But hypothetically, knowing that moderators can see this, I believe your proposed solution with a consent would be nice alternative :)
@RyanM What kind of services? Like social stuff? Or when I create an account because I need more rubber ducks from a small website? :)
@CodyGray Yes, well.. I would expect that.
@Scratte but also "Google does not use any personal information collected through the Public DNS service to target ads. We do not correlate or associate personal information in Google Public DNS logs with your information from use of any other Google service except for addressing security and abuse." - developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy
Define "security and abuse", though.
@RyanM That's just a "promise".. and they can just use other means anyway :D
That is always the issue with legal jargon. The text reads one way, but the wording is chosen to enable it being used contrary to the way most people read it.
It this sentence valid in English "Vote don't"?
06:52
No
The verb can't come at the beginning
How about "Vote do not". <-- sounds like Yoda.
Right, that is exactly the same. "don't" == "do not". So also not valid English.
So.. "Be smart" is also not valid? :)
@Scratte I tried to figure this out and got buried under a sea of marketing-speak
Heh. Never mind. It's English; there are no rules.
06:55
Retargeting is, of course, the classic example: upload [a hash of] your user's email and what products they looked at so that they'll see ads for them on Facebook later
No need to use the same browser
Actually, wait... "Do" is the verb. So it actually must start with a verb. Which is also clearly not a universal rule.
"Vote" is actually the direct object. And...although starting sentences with direct objects is rare, it can be grammatically correct to do so.
@RyanM I've found that separating my logins by using different browsers reduce a lot. Perhaps the email hashing is less used than than other ways?
@CodyGray I was having a bit a comma confusion with Lino's new username.
@Scratte Could be. Also relies on you having been logged in with your email when you viewed the product.
Also, have you tried Firefox Container Tabs? They're basically purpose-built for this use-case.
@RyanM Yes. I never do that. I only ever log in if I decide to buy something :)
@Scratte yeah i wanted a comma, but SO didn't allow it, so I'm now stuck with this name for another month :(
06:58
@RyanM No. I don't use firefox at all.
Really? You were prevented from putting a comma in your user name?
Or just that exceeded the length limit?
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks Hmm.. they don't allow "-" either?
I suppose no full stops either then. That's a bummer for "Mr. Perfect Jr."
@Scratte sadly I have hit the character limit already
Use an em dash, and remove the spaces around the hyphen
> Lino—Vote, don't say Thanks
@Scratte Wake up.. there's a "-" in the username. So obviously that's allowed.
07:01
is there a unicode char that looks like a comma? Because the normal comma is not allowed
But it looks like there's space for two more characters even in your current user name
@CodyGray Yep, but I can't change it anymore for the next month
@Scratte You should! It's great, and won't even try to sell you predatory loans.
> Display Name can only contain letters, digits, spaces, apostrophes or hyphens and must start with a letter or digit
So, no commas indeed. TIL.
Or em dashes, which are emphatically not hyphens
07:03
@RyanM It's fantastic in almost every way. I just wish its Javascript engine wasn't balls-slow compared to Chrome's. Then I could leave Chrome behind forever.
Perhaps it possible to steal a letter from another alphabet, that just looks like a comma.
According to the error message, letters stolen from other alphabets aren't allowed
Colons don't work either.
Letters from other alphabets are still letters
@RyanM I do not use the internet in my phone :) I use it to make calls and send messages only :)
Assuming they're using Unicode character classes properly
07:04
@RyanM Nope. All the world is ASCII.
@CodyGray Huh?!?.. I have seen username here with Chinese character.
I think one of our moderator candidates' names is proof of the fact that they are using Unicode character classes
Yeah, I don't know either
I would have just gone with "Lino - Vote No Thanks"
That could be interpreted as: Vote? No Thanks!
Take, for instance, the upside-down t - it's a letter
07:06
There's room for two -, no? :)
Yeah, you could do "Lino - Vote - Don't say Thanks"
But... meh. Something about that looks funny to me.
"Lino says don't Thank but Vote"
but that is probably too long
Vote or vote not, there is no thank
definitely too long, but sage advice.
lol!
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks It actually fits
07:10
em dash: not a letter
There's the Armenian full stop (։). I wonder if that's a letter?
@CodyGray I have too keep this in my mind when i can rename myself
Heh. I've been playing live with your account. Nothing I've tried has submitted so far, so I guess that's good. :-)
Found this list which contains probably all unicode punctuation letters
07:11
Oh, you definitely need to find a way to work the eyebrow () into your user name
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks Depends on how you do it. There's a natural 30 days renaming rate, but there's a workaround.
@Scratte Trick a moderator into doing it?
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks Nitpick from this former internationalization person: none of those are letters. They are characters.
@CodyGray That works :) But I was thinking about something about changing one name somewhere else to trigger a reset.
@CodyGray Just out of pure curiosity, can moderaters rename people?
07:12
@RyanM Nitpick of your nitpick: they are graphemes.
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks Yes, definitely. That's how we reset user names that are inappropriate, like "Redacted"
@CodyGray I see, it just gets renamed to the default username userXXXX right?
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks That's what we usually do. We can actually edit any aspect of your profile. The view/interface looks exactly the same for us on your account as it does for you on your own account. If we edit an account and leave the user name blank, it resets to the autogenerated userXXXXXX. But we can type in anything we want.
I wonder if it's against the rule to name oneself "Profanity"
07:16
No
Meta references in user names aren't against the rules
You can be "Expletive"
Well.. I am one in my avatar, sort of :)
@CodyGray So you can change my login email too? :)
That actually makes sense
@CodyGray Nitpick of your nitpick of my nitpick: no they aren't
(three separate links)
You are like an interrobang that underwent surgical separation. And found a friend.
"We didn't suspend you, but we updated your login. If you can guess right, you're allowed to use the site."
07:19
also TIL the term grapheme...had to look it up to make sure I was correct
They are, though
They're just also characters
So my nitpick wasn't really correct, because you weren't wrong
I will admit that I did not go through the entire list to see if any of the characters were not also graphemes
They are all just a sequence of ones and zeros, it just happens that someone interprets them as something that they can display :P
Non-display characters are not graphemes
That would have been your out, I suppose
"I was talking about the zero-width non joiner"
And, really, who is ever not talking about ZWNJ?
also a character that is one part of a multi-character grapheme, but cannot stand alone, would not count
such as an accent of some sort
07:24
Right, and that's the part that trips most people up
When they say "character", they are almost never thinking of those; they're thinking of what would actually be displayed, the combination of characters, which is the grapheme.
And that's why indexing into a string is always a bug.
The one I screw up is the difference between characters and code points
As far as I know, the only difference there is that a single character might be able to be encoded as multiple code points
I looked it up to make sure I used the right one :-)
In Unicode, that's almost never going to happen, so you don't have to remember it or get it right
@CodyGray by one definition of character, that is correct. but the main difference is that "Not all code points are assigned to encoded characters"
07:27
Ah, yeah, that make sense, too
Is client-side DOM manipulation a "trick"?
You can't trust these web developers
@RyanM Some codepoints are surrogates. Meaning they need an additional codepoint to make a character.
@RyanM I think on Mobile it isn't really disabled and you can still write answers to closed questions
What isn't broken on mobile?
Why aren't people just using the responsive site?
07:33
@RyanM If I remember correctly that means that in Java a character can need 8 bytes to be represented. I believe that it then requires 4 char's.
@Scratte eek you're right: "The high-surrogate and low-surrogate code points are designated for surrogate code units in the UTF-16 character encoding form. They are unassigned to any abstract character"
I came somewhat close to taking a job where I'd have to know this
@RyanM I tried to play with it, but since I do not use an IDE and I couldn't make my cmd to show me any of those characters, I gave up on it.
You should have written a GUI interface in Visual Basic
I actually just declined to review some code the other day that dealt with this, because I would have zero clue if it is correct
I recommended that they get our text team to review that part of the patch
@CodyGray That sounds like a project that in my case will not end :D
07:37
Do projects ever end?
@CodyGray I assume it would end once you catch the killer after tracking their IP address
Do projects every make sense in the first place?
@Lino-Votedon'tsayThanks hmm, I can't, at least on other people's questions...
@RyanM submit an answer directly through the SE-api then ;)
oh wait, you meant the mobile app...nope, that doesn't work either
07:43
i saw it happen on both, but that was years ago
What does SE do against troll mod-nominations?
They are usually removed by staff
But it's sometimes hard to determine what's a troll nomination and what's not
Yeah, it certainly is. Just imagine that a pair of glasses would nominate ...
Someone has to moderate the moderators
@rene We still don't know if that one was serious
no comment
08:31
Of course you're not a porcupine! You're an urchin!
08:56
And another tag... has more than 21k questions, about completely different topics
"The general process of moving data from an external source into one's platform, program, or data set." oh no
user12867493
@janw Why don't you make a ?
I would, but I am not sure whether anything will be done about this at all. I mean...21k questions....
I can't say I'm one to back down from trying to burninate huge tags...but make sure you demonstrate that it's causing harm
@RyanM Ok, then I will put it onto my list for tag-related meta posts
08:59
I refrain from creating burninate requests anymore, the damage done the tags I found is too little and too much time would be invested for literally nothing

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