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8:00 PM
Every programming language has its strength and weaknesses.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Ok, I like auto-expansion while typing if it does not hinder my flow, but I prefer to type most myself. As I wrote, I can live with the Modula-2/Oberon Syntax, but the Pascal one is a bit clumsy. Plus on bare-metal I sometimes have to work with (defined) UB on a machine. Or the overhead for type-safety/bounds checking is just not tolerable and I rather test/debug the code more thoroughly.
 
Yeah, it's really chatty. Hard to find the real code in between those if(x) then begin end else begin end; stuff sometimes.
 
A friend of mine would prefer Ada on bare-metal for exactly the safety aspect.
 
What about eiffel?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Delphi is for mobile devs? Didn't know, I don't do mobile phones with more software than necessary to send text messages or make calls. Also: I absolutely hate that spelling of my name, and incidentally it doesn't ping me here ;)
 
8:03 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ Well, for one there are no parens required for if <condition> then. But that's what I prefer with Modula: if … then … else … end etc.
 
@Adriaan Yeah, their ARC compiler is quite nifty for mobile development.
@toohonestforthissite I am still used to use parens and almost always fail when writing range based for loops :-D
@Adriaan Here are some a's in advance (in case I should miss it in future again): aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
:3
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I think I programmed a few lines in that language at the computers at a friend's school. But that was nothing with classes. A language more common in a field of embedded systems (TelCo) is Erlang. But I can't get used to them. In fact a better defined C-syntax language would be fine for me. Just a bit of OOP which does not add run-time overhead would be fine.
 
@toohonestforthissite Ahhrg shit. I confused Erlang and Eiffel, yes.
The strength is that you can exchange code with running systems.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Does Delphi provide other for loops? Pascal, etc. only provided something like for i := 10 downto 1 do (I hope I got the syntax right)
Some questions im embedded here are around rust. But I still don't like the implicit overhead one (might) pull in.
 
There's one syntax that allows to set the syntax you mentioned within parens, but range based like for item in container do begin ... end which doesn't
 
8:14 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ How would that work with most MCUs which either completely disallow concurrent Flash reads and writes or halt the read while writing (which takes up to some ms per page, not to think about the some seconds for erase and erasure works on 16-65KiB sectors only (and is required before programming)?
@πάνταῥεῖ Ah, that's new to me. But very common in e.g. Python. Interestingly, omitting parens in Python was never an issue, but the fact it's formatting-sensitive.
 
I am not really experienced with that. But it was a discussion once selecting a language for a 24/7 up system when we considered it: erlang.org/doc/reference_manual/code_loading.html
There's a runtime supporting that of course.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I'd rather consider Ada. Even more typing, but the syntax is much more clear. I think I only accept C because I learned it long time ago and the concepts are simple enough. Tht's btw. one reason I don't like C++ (and it's getting worse). At some point a new construct with new alpha-keywords is a good idea and C++ overstreched using symbols.
 
@Makyen How to flag that answer? (Is it an answer? Google translate seems unable to find the language)
 
@toohonestforthissite I well know your stance about c++ in embedded development, and that there are better choices for empowered targets than the language. It was my 1st <3, well.
 
@Steve translate did find a language for me, but it's still utter rubbish which comes out. Might be spam, but can;t be sure now. It's VLQ since it's non-English, so that's what I went with
 
8:24 PM
@too Did you buy a book about the radical honesty BTW?
 
@Adriaan No problem it's gone now
 
@Adriaan seems to be Persian and complete nonsense: It's a hacker who has made himself known to Samrina, who cares for his own self-sufficiency in the way of losing the path. But he knows his own Jew and he uses other people's tricks and uses his SIM cards. I'm Bhlul Afshar, two years old. I bet that he's not a hacker at all, and he's a crook. etc etc etc
 
@Vickel That's what Google translate told me yea
 
@toohonestforthissite Haha, it's the real cheese, "liquified" with some light light cream (in opposition to heavy cream, the that can be wiped). It's not "crème fraîche" which is the "sour cream". To be true I use it rarely
 
8:25 PM
@Steve I probably got the same/similar translation as @Adriaan. I went with VLQ/NAA, but was really tempted to go with R/A.
 
after translating, and even without I think it qualifies for R/A
 
@vega Always better to use just the real things ;)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Not only in embedded. It has become a bad language imo due to that obfuscated syntax. I think the C syntax could be used for a more clear OOPL, but C++ has taken the road to :-<-land. If speed is not an issue, Python is the best way imo. For real-time on a PC (i.e. games) I accept C++ is currently the least evil. A often good alternative is Python with the speed-critical stuff in few small C modules.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ yes, sure! :)
 
@Vickel I ended up with giving the benefit of the doubt, with the assumption that something was significantly messed up with the translation. But, it wouldn't take much for me to go with R/A.
 
8:28 PM
@Vickel problem with foreign language posts is that you can't be sure they are spam or R/A, so basically always flag as VLQ, unless a couple of links to obvious spams are included. This is what mods told me (BR specifically)
 
I hoped D, rust or go would be acceptable successors of C, but they concentrate on PC-like systems and ignore bare-metal which require no or at least deterministic overhead and low complexitiy of the language itself.
 
@toohonestforthissite It's not really obfuscated for me. If you're grown up with it ...
 
@Adriaan I do NAA on these kind of answers, generally
 
For newbs its hard to grasp, yes.
 
@Vickel the NAA/VLQ debate is hot, but since a mod told me "Foreign language in questions goes as unclear, and in answers as VLQ, unless littered with spam links", I'll go with VLQ
 
8:31 PM
@toohonestforthissite Even for relatively small CPUs, I'd prefer to use a µC linux and c++ though.
 
@Vega Well, as I wrote, I use cream (the one for whipping) for the sauce, plus the fond. These days I thicken with starch to use less cream, but when I was younger I used only cream and coocked to reduce the water. Tasts better, but … heavy.
 
@Vickel interesting pallet of languages you list on your profile. How'd you come by your knowledge of Dutch (happens to be my native tongue)
 
@Adriaan, because I'm a native German speaker, so Dutch I can read, but not speak anymore since I stopped practicing...
 
@Adriaan Well, that's what we're talking about half an hour (if not longer) here. Programming is programming.
 
@Vickel which makes the rest of the list even more impressive, chapeau
 
8:34 PM
@ Ilive in Portugal since 25 years
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Well, I grew up with C, but stil find it obfuscated. Always talking from a read's view, of course. Present a Python and a C++ program (both using common language features) to a programmer who doesn't knoiw the language, but any other "normal" (i.e. non esotheric like Brainfuck) and you will see who get the gist of the code better.
 
@Adriaan VLQ is the official recommendation for non-English answers, although NAA will usually be accepted. Spam or R/A should be used if you can determine through translation that is what they are.
 
Also featured in my favorite meta answer: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/350935/4342498
 
@Makyen that basically confirms what I was saying (except the R/A bit)
 
@toohonestforthissite Yeah, but you strictly have to get the indentation right. Similar as with makefiles :D
 
8:36 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ There is a reason Python is not 3rd on Tiobe after Java and C (see Heise today).
 
Java, C# and all that kinda stuff have bad distinguishing of standard and additional libraries.
 
Hum, it's 22:40 here, and someone amongst my neighbours is drilling into their walls? That's a rather odd time for that
 
@Vickel: So you're living in Portugal? Did you speak the language before you moved there or learned it "the hard way"?
 
I am touching Java only with the pincers.
 
@toohonestforthissite: first I had Latin at school, 6 years and then a Portuguese girlfriend, also 6 years :)
 
8:40 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ There is a major difference: 1) The interpreter (actually it's a bytecode compiler) gives hints. 2) You can use spaces and tabs and the interpreter can warn if both are used. And good editors can show the indentation level or at least visualise tabs.
 
@Vickel Sounds like a well founded education
 
@πάνταῥεῖ best way to learn a language: mingle with the locals
 
@toohonestforthissite And least but not last you can seamlessly integrate python with c or c++ :)
 
@Vickel How would one get along with just 1.5 years Latin, English and basics in French? I mean, I'm often surprised how good I understand Italian or Spanish, but I don't say I speak/know them.
@πάνταῥεῖ At least about that we agree. Fortunately Oracle does their best to make that unnecessary.
 
@Vickel In fact I really learned English when I had to work a few years with two russians, a brazilian and an indian co-workers :D
 
8:44 PM
@toohonestforthissite: that's a great base to work on, I suggest to read an read and read, and whenever you have the chance: SPEAK
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I'd said it more the other way round, but yeah, writing a C module with a class to be used like any other in Python is quite simple. I did this once or twice, because it seemed easier and faster than a native module and convert C source with constants and typedefs from a kernel module each time something changed.
 
I made my "little" latinum with a diploma rated 4. I still understand incredibly much of french, italian, portugese and spanish.
 
I'll stick with four languages for the time being, I'll learn in a few months whether I'll need to learn another one
 
@Vickel That is the problem. I don't have any opportunity to read Portugeese much, less to practice. But, hey, I wanted to go there for holiday since some decades already. Maybe I should just jump into my car - road trip!
 
8:49 PM
@toohonestforthissite: you can also "learn it from a book" from "Manuel Practices His English - Fawlty Towers - BBC": youtube.com/watch?v=5035TY5RSpg
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I got exactly 1 point (of 15) in French. That was all I needed. Learning Pascal, Assembler and hardware was much more important to me that time. Yet I found it interesting how good I got away two of three days in France some years ago. Apparently my brain stored much more than I thought. Well, I should have expected that.
 
@toohonestforthissite: road trip sounds like the best option!!!
 
@Vickel I knwo the series. Their episode with the Germans makes me doubt it's the best resource, though.
 
Try that in bavaria :D
 
@toohonestforthissite when I saw the sketch with the Elk and Manel the 1st time, it went into my brain and never left; don+t remember much of the remaining series
 
8:54 PM
@Vickel Yeah, but I should find the time (and money) first. Back then we were four planning to go by train (I forgot the name of that special europe ticket, but it was relatively cheap), but we parted before we could even plan anything for real.
@Vickel Ever watched "Black Adder"? Much better than Mr. Bean. But you have to know the citations and modern context.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ How about greek?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ A road-trip? Did they already close the borders?
 
@toohonestforthissite find a plane ticket or drive, not the train! I love Black Adder, watching it every winter at least once :)
 
Whatever I learn 1st in a foreign country is how alcohol, grass and good food is named :3
 
Black Adder!!! I recommend the "millenium special" episode, when the hero travels in time, and changes history.
 
8:57 PM
@Vickel That was some decades ago. One reason I did not jump into a plane to visit many countries was that post-911 paranoia. And no end of that madness in sight.
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre that's the best one
 
aah and the rarest too. I have the DVDs of the series, that one isn't included.
 
@Vega I can't grasp their alphabet well, but there are many root words I still know-
 
@toohonestforthissite problems with train: they don't work: in Germany, in France, In Spain and in Portugal, unfortunately
 
But "Fawlty Towers" still beats "Black Adder" imho
 
8:59 PM
Manel is a classic character !
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Tipp: Best place to ask is a police station. They should know all three. In the US you will just get directions to the next Doghnut shop, though ;-)
 
It's a bit more "modern"
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre All are good, but I was literally ROFLing on some of the Elisabeth-I episodes.
 
@toohonestforthissite In Tralee I managed to turn wrong ways into a oneway street directly next the p'lice station. But they were really nice to me; guided me right out of the little oneway maze to where I had to go to :D
Triple ping he, he ;)
 
@toohonestforthissite I love the 1st world war episodes too. The episode writing is genius.
@Vickel "I know nothing, I'm from Barcelona"
 
9:03 PM
@Jean-FrançoisFabre "Back and Forth"? It's on the on the DVD (but I can't tell which release).
 
Back and Forth it is :) I must have an old DVD set. The series started in 1985ish, this episode was shot round 1999 for Y2K new years eve
 
Oh, we're old :-/
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I find the last episode rather sad, but well British humor (whistle blows) @toohonestforthissite yes it's "back and forth"
 
@Vickel They used to before the Bundesbahn became an AG. And - as I wrote that was many years ago. Now I'd rather drive by car, despite the long trip. Just take the time and rest on the way. Maybe visit some other places; I'd alyways wanted to see Barcelona, too. I wouldn'tr dare to drive through Paris, though.
 
The Monty Phyton's really revolutionized "British Humor" and done best for my taste so far.
 
9:07 PM
@toohonestforthissite meh Paris, no problem, avoid the bad neighbourhoods, so
 
Avoid the traffic circles in Paris :P
 
@πάνταῥεῖ the live of Brian...
 
The Larch ...
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Yes, but if you don't know the cultural and historical references well enough, you're lost and all left is a nice comedy. Might work for some, but with the understanding it gets another dimension of comedy.
 
@toohonestforthissite scary was to drive at night in Bogota, some years ago, no-one would stop at a traffic light. Too afraid to be assaulted...
 
9:09 PM
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I think the DVD was bought after 2005.
 
I only have the 4 or 5 first seasons...
I'm not too good in the history of England... I know Azincourt :)
 
@Vickel Not to miss: I am not very well trained to left side traffic.
@Jean Ask irish people about history. You'll learn a lot about normanic, saxon and celtic people and some conflicts they still have nowadays.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Or rather avoid Paris at all. It would be a major detour anyway. Maybe I could pay a visit to Toulouse:-). Barcelone would also be possible. Although I'm not sure if I can get to Catalonia from Spain if I ever et my but(t) up for the tour. Maybe it's also a good idea to program a key of my car to the speed limits. After all I'm used to the Autobahn.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ okay next time I meet an irish guy I'll ask that.
@toohonestforthissite when you're in Toulouse ping me for a beer (I'll buy)
 
@jean It's good having a talk with them, best garnished with some stout and whiskey ;)
 
9:15 PM
From Ireland, I just remember a very wet biking trip :)
 
@toohonestforthissite: Autobahn? so you are used to stop and go? don't program that into your key :)
 
@too Barcelona traffic is extremely tough. Not to mention the oneway maze.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ It was not that bad in Kuala-Lumpur. The right-side driver Mercedes might have helped, too. But tht traffic was horrible. A local coleague was literally driving 1-2m behind other cars - at 100km/h. And that was normal. I finally asked him just for the sake of my sleep to hold a bit larger distance. He did - for a minute or so.
 
@jean OK, we traveled by car :D
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre 4 seasons plus three specials. I seem to just have the B&F special and some making of or so (also quite interesting).
 
9:17 PM
damn I'll have to check on the DVDs again...
 
@halfer agreed
 
@toohonestforthissite best route from central Europe to Portugal: visit Biarritz, pass the Basque country (Mundaka, San Sebastian), continue staying North, go to Galicia, then South: Viana de Castelo, Porto, Aveiro (the Venice of Portugal) Nazare (the biggest waves on earth), Ericeira (I buy you a beer) the 1st World Surfing Reserve in Europe, Lisbon and Costa Alentejana down to Sagres...
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre That was the idea;-) Nevertheless, don't expect me too soon. I'm sure I'll take some years to get up. I even didn't manage to visit a specific other user who is much closer by (and can speak the same language if he tries;-)
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Yeah, some bike seats are problematic for (biologically) male humans.
 
@Vickel Down to Sagres is the key in that route. We've always been ending up at the Sagres camping lot. Best in Europe.
Odeceixe is also nice.
 
@toohonestforthissite OK I'll be there a while (hopefully!) if you wait too long I'll have to buy you some herbal tea at the old folks home though.
 
9:22 PM
@Vickel Most times I drive there are at least some parts not overcrouded at least, sometimes even fine for 200+km/h. But yeah, these moments are becoming rare. I already decided the next car will have automatic gear. Expecially with adaptive speed control it's a good idea.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ and Vila Nova de Mil Fontes
 
@toohonestforthissite Right seat driven car is a must with left side traffic, how should you pass by any other vehicle otherwise??
 
@Vickel Well, It's certainly too early to plan a route. I won't be going this year, not even sure next. Nevertheless, if I do, I'll ask you if we both are still lurking around. Actually I'd like to see mostly the Algarve. And maybe a Port and Sherry winery (or how is that called?)
 
@toohonestforthissite I'd opt for a really small hidden radar detection device, costs 500 bucks and saves you up to 10 points on your drivers license
 
@toohonestforthissite Its called that. But spanish Jerez is woth it as well.
 
9:30 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ: Could you get some weeks free for holiday next year? :-)
 
@toohonestforthissite you are welcome, I'm for sure around Ericeira, which is the place I've found to live. So gimme a shout...
 
@toohonestforthissite I'd probably be a good guide for portugal and south spain. Maybe :)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Deja-vue …
@Vickel Nah, I follow the rules mostly. Until now, all tickets were for up to 10km/h too fast.
 
@toohonestforthissite my wife knows some german, and doesn't have a clue about so you won't have to close her questions.
 
@too And you'd be probably a better co-driver than my ex-wife. Did I already told you that story when I proposed her to speak in a GPS navigation system:
 
9:34 PM
@toohonestforthissite you are too honest for the streets
 
"Leeeft here, go leeeft idiot!"
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Well, if you can think about sitting in a Focus for extended time, I'm sure we can find an agreement about the music.
 
@Vickel Aww you broke it :-/
 
@πάνταῥεῖ your wife must have married me now :(
 
LOL
After 3 days we decided it's better for us she should take place at the rear seat :3
All fine ...
 
9:36 PM
@Jean-FrançoisFabre "doesn't have a clue about c so you won't have to close her questions." - Well, the first part does not keep people from asking here. In fact most questions I close are from people who apparently don't know the language either. That seems to be no reason to try it anyway.
 
good point. But she doesn't even know that c exists. Well, barely. not into computers, except for MS office crap.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I thought more about being the driver. I'm actually quite a bad co-driver and if you know the way, It would be better you gave the directions. Otoh, I have a navi of course.
 
Wife: fix the printer, it's not printing.
 
/o all, off for dinner... talk later
 
Me: work from my machine :)
Wife: it doesn't from mine.
Me: have you tried to turn it off and on again ? :)
Wife: yes.
Me: I mean the printer?
Wife: yes you moron
 
9:39 PM
@toohonestforthissite Oh, usually I feel uncomfortable not driving myself. We would need to discuss that ;)
 
Me: removing the printer from windows, re-adding it: fixed.
Wife: you're a f**ing genius (that part I just made up)
 
@πάνταῥεῖ A long time gone GF of mine was even better: "Oh, we should have left the Autobahn right there (1km after the exit). To be fair: I was driving with her parents' car at 180km/h, new licence and she was a bit busy looking out front like a rabbit to the snake.
@Vickel Well, I got most tickets in town and with even less overhead since I got my strong motor. I just was used to the old car not speeding up that quickly. Plus it just did not feel that fast.
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Maybe we should check the questions without a language tag. I expect to find even more "precious" "pearls" there.
Well, in dubio pro reo, my mom also has no idea about programming or C and wouldn't ask here either. I'm just too pessimistic.
 
@too OK, TBF too: 1) we also had a navi 2) I was at speed of 80 (the allowed max) at very small and blind bend roads 3) These roads were all bounded by solid stone walls behind the bushes
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Which car do you have?
 
@toohonestforthissite My owned car is a Skoda Fabia. At holidays we had a little smaller Opel Astra.
 
9:50 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ Both are actually smaller than my Focus:-). But let's discuss that if we (I) can really make plans. Right now, … well - you know.
Ok, I'll raid my fridge.
 
@toohonestforthissite I'd prefer renting a camping van anyways
 
10:08 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ Let's discuss this later, after we two met irl.
 
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