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12:01 AM
Can someone tell me what the differences are between networking in R2 and R3? For example if one wanted to port an R2 scheme to R3, what problems are there technically and what about the copyright in the R2 scheme?
 
@Brett We are working on a network scheme document in Google Docs, it's not ready for prime time (and is getting chopped in half). If you would like me to send you access for the Google Doc in progress, either skype me at metaeducation or email me: brian@hostilefork.com
 
@HostileFork Thanks.
 
If you haven't read it yet, Graham created a very good article
@rebolbot find network
 
@johnk The Google Doc is a refactoring of Graham's document...adds some technical info and is splitting up into a "user of network scheme" doc and a "behind the scenes"
 
12:09 AM
@HostileFork Sounds good!
 
@GrahamChiu is updating the network scheme so it is dialected instead of just sending JSON strings. Adds complexity, but makes Rebol seem a bit more literate and compelling in the example...
And with my new icons there will be no stopping R3/Droid! Muhaha! Well, let's just pretend that's true. :-P
 
Yes I had a quick look at Graham's document, but I was still in the dark a bit with what is different to R2. I do mean to go back to it.
@HostileFork I hope so.
 
I was a bit disappointed that SL4A didn't have more UI wrappers. Does some basic dialogs, but most of it is about exposing non-UI phone functionality.
 
@johnk had to explain to me what SL4A was.
 
some guys had it running on a rocket or something
no UI needed there!
@brett, R3 schemes are asynchronous .. R2 were not
 
12:14 AM
Depends if you are riding it.
 
so if you ever played with async http in r2, then it's very similar to that
 
Ok that's good, and bad (for my ability to understand that is) :-)
 
it's event driven
 
@HostileFork you have mail :-)
 
so network schemes create and process events to handle the data
when you write data, you create a wrote event when it has written to the port
when data arrives on the port, there is a read event created
and so forth
 
12:19 AM
@GrahamChiu Yep I get that
 
I never wrote any R2 schemes but @rgchris has so he could compare them... but as far as I can see, he's not here .. only his avatar is!
 
I did do some work with Romano on getting ftp stable a long whiles back.
But most of my understanding of networking comes from reading Rebol
 
then you might just be the right person to review my ftp scheme!
 
@GrahamChiu You have one? Cool.
 
written in 2010 and largely untested since then
 
12:26 AM
It says here, that you've done a bunch of schemes.
Quite the schemer.
 
it was long ago when the docs were fresh in my head
 
Doesn't seem too long. IIRC ftp in R2 was significantly longer.
R3 supports TLS is that right? So I wonder how hard it would be to support FTPS Explicit.
 
yes, the saphir builds have tls
I did do a test of pops as well
ie. fetching mail from gmail
which worked
I have no idea of how ftps .. as I recall sftp was ftp over ssh which was different again
 
In ftps explicit the ftp client requests security from the server
 
12:42 AM
well, there's no mechanism yet to switch from non-tls to tls
it's either on or off at present
 
Oh.
 
I know this because when I was trying to do the pops, you have to stay in TLS mode
@Cyphre said he was going to look at implementing it dynamically but I suspect he has been distracted by the Android port
 
In that case it would have to be Ftps implicit
 
these days I don't do any ftp .. it's all Amazon S3 instead :)
 
@GrahamChiu I don't know much about that.
 
12:46 AM
15c/Gb a month is all you need to know :)
 
Lol
What do you use it for?
 
encrypted medical files
I hear there is now a data centre in Sydney
 
So it's a big dropbox?
 
the www.r3gui.com website is all hosted in S3 too.
my app stores and retrieves from S3 medical files
hosting on S3 means no CGI
It also means no server crashes and lost data
if the ISP changes or whatever
 
Useful.
Will keep that it mind.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:06 AM
Ran into Carl today at Home Depot. Told him about some of the conversations happening on chat.stackoverflow.com. He said he may try to stop by here sometime in the next week.
Just a heads up.
 
@Respectech here meaning this chat room?
Or does it mean Home Depot ?
If he means this chat, then it would be good if we can get a time so that someone will be here, we have a moderator, and a list of questions
 
No, he said he was intending on stopping by chat.stackoverflow.com within the next week. Of course, he said he doesn't hardly have any time for anything other than work, but he would try. I don't think even he knows when he will stop by. Maybe I'll see if I can schedule a time with him and then we can have an IRC-style get-together with him here.
 
That would be a more productive exercise.
If they give him a lunch break .. perhaps he could use that?
 
 
1 hour later…
3:37 AM
@HostileFork It does seem to be somewhat restrictive unless I am missing something. Here is a summary of the API calls available code.google.com/p/android-scripting/wiki/ApiReference
 
You can setup dialogs and requestors but the actual gui is defined in XML or something like that
 
 
3 hours later…
7:02 AM
@HostileFork I don't think of myself as a drop in, I used Rebol 2 in early 2000s and I have written an opensourced a CoreWars interpreter.
 
7:25 AM
@hegemon any interest in rebol3?
 
7:47 AM
Of cource Im interested in Rebol3 and I'm very excited to see the open source development or Rebol and Red. I would like it to be a tool both for every-day scripting (like Python) and as a production grade systems language (like Go).
 
 
1 hour later…
9:02 AM
In fact I found the Core Wars project and re-published it on GitHub: github.com/paweu/rebol-corewars
 
9:13 AM
Hello!
I just searched for "rebol" in github, I got amazed by the number of results!
I had a question:
I gitted rebol3 from github.com/rebol/r3, and also from github.com/rebolsource/r3.git
and I had a look at the merge trees: the first (main historical one) stopped late february, apparently
while the second is more alive...
up to early april
I'm just wandering: where is THE rebol3 branch, now?
How to cope with all these forks? I know forking is the way to go in git, but merging efforts should also, IMHO, be a top priority.
Any opinions, ideas, enlightenments?
 
9:30 AM
Forks area a littlbe bit hostile, now :-)
 
Oh, I also just gitted github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar.git, which seems the most active place.
@pekr you bet! ;-)
@hegemon just gitted it; it works fine on my Linux box. Although I can't figure out what are these red and green dots doing... But I'm not a gamer...
 
9:53 AM
Seems no one outside of Saphir is using the R3GUI :(
 
@GrahamChiu - it just might be, that almost noone is in fact using R3 itself?
 
nah
Carl is using it!
 
I mean - still many ppl on R2 ....
Carl? What for? IIRC, he said, that his company does not allow him to use it for dev purposes?
 
How does one access the system context from inside a funct ?
Carl .. for Rebol.com
@rebolbot
test: 1
foo: funct [ ] [ print test test: none print lib/test ]
foo
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-invalid-path.html
>> test: 1 foo: funct [] [print test test: none print lib/test] foo
none
*** ERROR
** Script error: cannot access test in path lib/test
** Where: foo
** Near: foo
 
10:10 AM
It can't be system/contexts/user/ ?
that's so long :(
@rebolbot
test: 1
foo: funct [ ] [ print test test: none system/contexts/user/test: 2 ]
foo
?? test
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> test: 1 foo: funct [] [print test test: none system/contexts/user/test: 2] foo ?? test
none
test: 2
== 2
 
11:01 AM
So, inside of a funct, I have to do something like this, eg where I have a block
system/contexts/user/list: head list
to reset a list to the head
 
11:21 AM
@hegemon Core Wars - very interesting. Not sure there are any other games I can think of where you code your own character in assembly.
 
12:20 PM
@GrahamChiu FUNCT/extern
@RebolBot do
test: 1 foo: funct/extern [] [print test] [test] foo
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> test: 1 foo: funct/extern [] [print test] [test] foo
1
 
 
4 hours later…
3:59 PM
@pekr Hm. I must confess that I only ran a few tests with Rebol3. On a daily basis, I use Rebol2/View.
I found the Rebol3 console extremely unfriendly. And Rebol2/View has everything I need. Well, almost (no menus...).
 
4:15 PM
I'm basically only using R3 these days, for my Rebol scripting. It's just so much more usable on Linux than R2. And the added bonus that I can fix bugs I come across is just invaluable :)
2
(Thinking about it, I've basically been using mainly R3 for the last 2-3 years.)
 
4:57 PM
@ gram chiu for rebol3 alpha to beta stage is it the needed step or is it an ideal whish list ? (I mean on rebelbb french comunity forum we already played to give your wish list to acheive a full rebol 3.0 according to your opinion so I could translate and provide that) if it is the general steps I think what you already listed are the main points.
 
@GrahamChiu I compiled from Saphirion Source and the resulting exe asked me thos libraries. (it was hard to find them). I used MinGw to compile.
 
@ earl thank you but I think it is more the duty of view to setup windows size borders title and so real background win32 transparency. I understand your point but I fear the interfacing with gob! makes me go a layer lower what I want to acheive I try to be as efficient as possible and not be too complicated ...
@earl probably a wrong analyse from me. But at the moment it is my point of view about that...
 
If you have other questions, please use rebol.informe.com, because chat are too disordered and I can't follow question and answers.
 
@MaxV your view.exe is related with your opengl project ?
 
@shadwolf I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
A "window" is a special type of gob! internally. If you want to do the transparency in the way you described, the pointers I gave you are where to integrate that kind of transparency.
As I said, everything's already in place to signal the desire for a transparent window from the R3 side to the C side.
 
5:09 PM
My, is community version of R3, is the only with GUI working on Windows. I just put together all changes made from others: Earl, BrianH, Saphirion, etc.
 
@shadwolf If you are talking about how to pass this transparency flag through the view function, just have a look at the source of it; it's a mezzanine after all.
Basically, view is a convenience wrapper that creates the underlying window gob! for you (unless you tell it not to, with /as-is).
You shouldn't have to add any special transparency handling there, as that should already be working: view/options ... [flags: [transparent]] (bugs notwithstanding).
@MaxV Except for Saphirion's version which of course also has a working GUI on Windows.
 
5:32 PM
@earl Is it normal that nm -A on Red shared libs created with ELF emitter returns no symbol entry? (Same with objdump)
 
@DocKimbel I think so, yes. Use nm -D.
 
@earl Thanks, works!
 
And objdump -d should demarcate the code for the exported symbols properly.
(And code for non-exported stuff will appear in big blobs.)
objdump -T should dump the exported (and imported) symbols.
 
Curious that objdump -x returns:
SYMBOL TABLE:
no symbols
 
Yeah, there's only dynamic symbols.
I'd rather use readelf -a for that purpose. Or readelf --dyn-syms for only the symbols.
 
5:38 PM
objdump -T does the job fine.
 
5:56 PM
@DocKimbel I have been hoping that Rebol would shift to using arbitrary precision integers... have you considered this for Red at all? I feel that assuming any particular integer size in client code is bad, and that it is a can of worms when you start offering routines that detect the size and then write conditional code. In Red/System it is fine but perhaps in Rebol and Red proper there would be a uniform strategy for converting integers to binary and then one would pad it as appropriate.
 
6:11 PM
@HostileFork I would like to have such feature, I have an old custom bignum C lib sitting on my disk for years. However, it would be an addition, not a replacement for integer! datatype. We could provide automatic fallback to bignum when the result of an integer math expression overflows.
 
@DocKimbel Is it really necessary, though...as opposed to chewing a bit out of the integer to say whether it's a bignum or not? Already integers chew a bit out for the sign. What is one more? If you could only get 2^30 positive integers instead of 2^31, wouldn't it be worth the simplification and generality of interface?
People would not have to worry about the performance or difference between 64-bit and 32-bit platforms. The 64-bit would just be faster up to a larger limit of integer size, and so on
 
6:28 PM
Hm, @earl and other windows-denizens... I'd not heard of #include <dontuse.h>... some kind of list of banned/deprecated Windows APIs. Might be good to check Rebol's Windows builds against it?
 
@HostileFork You're talking about R3 interpreter, aren't you? For Red compiler (especially once we add optimizations), the cost will be probably higher.
 
@DocKimbel I'm not sure why it would be a high cost in the compiler, but I'd have to look at it in detail. I really have not worked with bignums (except in languages/systems that support them implicitly). I generally assumed that small integers had special case optimizations so they would not be much slower than their ordinary fit-in-register counterparts. Perhaps that's not done, I'd have to research it.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:40 PM
@HostileFork I'm decidedly no Windows-denizen :)
 
8:09 PM
@HostileFork: Check your Skype. I sent you a msg. Thx!
 
9:02 PM
eBay just assumes you want items shipped to your "default shipping address". I haven't bought anything off of eBay for over two years, and didn't realize it wasn't going to ask me where it wanted the thing shipped.
The forms have gotten so noisy...with ads and graphics and "do you want to donate money to Oklahoma" and "leave a message for the seller" to the point where it's easy to overlook the small print of a default shipping address being used. :-/
So the order by default is going where I lived two years ago, I hope the seller reads my message...I sent it immediately after I noticed, just a minute after the order!
 
9:18 PM
@MaxV Cyphre has released an "unofficial" R3gui which allows you to detab an area face .. so you can use that in your editor
 
9:51 PM
@earl: are there some special flags for ARM targets required by ELF shared libs? There is no way I can load an ELF/ARM shared lib generated with Red (either from Java or from Red/System).
 
10:08 PM
@earl, strace shows that the shared library is found and opened, but it seems it's not recognized, so it's discarded and another one with same name is searched in all available paths (and of course, not found).
 
 
1 hour later…
11:13 PM
@earl thanks. I've asked the r3gui guys if they can also add an /extern refinement to actors such as on-action as currently it acts like funct
 
11:43 PM
@pierre The lack of multi-line console is an issue for me as well, but it is being worked on - trello.com/c/R3g5PBMu
 
@rebolek has offered to release what he had done to date so we could pitch in to help finish it ...
I'd imagine we could use a custom area face as the console, and output pushed to another area face.
Just remap the CR to clear the face and evaluate the contents
Maintain a history and remap the up arrow so that it retrieves the history
 

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