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10:01 PM
@HostileFork Actually, porting it to R3 has a value: it allows to run the Red compiler on platforms not supported by R2 (like Syllable Desktop or ARM-based ones).
 
@DocKimbel For the next week until you bootstrap! :-) My point is just I would pick another project to solidify the design before you make the snake eat its tail too much. Cheyenne seems like a perfect one to port. Then you let Rebol people fix bugs, keep pushing you onto new platforms for time to come, and converge the common data exchange format for the two.
 
"...port Cheyenne to Red" Actually, Cheyenne will be fully rewritten to take advantage of Red feature and architecture. Also the RSP engine is outdated, a new way to build web pages is required. What I am planning is a GWT-like engine, with client-side code auto-generation.
 
I will say again Red has a stronger story if there is a "version of Red" not written completely in Red but in ANSI-C, that people can open and explore, and feel more at home and comfort with knowing it is there and they want to put the trust in their Clang or GCC backends and not something foreign they might have more trouble debugging into.
@DocKimbel Why not Cheyenne first then bootstrap? Won't Cheyenne be much faster already? Won't it raise issues that may affect the language design and you will be doing a bit of a tightwire rope when your "old" binary compiler is different from your "new" binary compiler tool that you have to use to make the changes?
 
@HostileFork "It seems like the wrong thing to be pushing so early." Actually, waiting to make the move to self-hosted Red will cause much more trouble than you think, as the current codebase is not meant to live long, the more I wait for the rewrite, the more issues I will hit. I need to get that timing right as there are some tasks that will need to be completed before the self-hosting phase starts, like providing proper and complete documentation...
 
@DocKimbel I have done this before, and I can tell you it is possible. I can tell you bootstrapping is very fun and you feel good. For a little while you keep the old version and the new version in sync just to see, in case something goes wrong with the bootstrap and you get stuck with a can and no can-opener somehow.
 
10:10 PM
@HostileFork With Red I want to get rid of C, not get deeply attached to it, Red/System is already a good working alternative to C. People used to Rebol even find it much easier to learn/use than C.
 
But despite the fact that bootstrap is possible it is not a user-facing feature. I can only tell you my experience. The reason you will not get users and growth outside of Red will have nothing to do with what Red is written in or how fast the compilation is...so finding the users and building buzz will be good. Whether you are attached to C or not, many are and it could bring strength and numbers to spend time hammering out the common design concerns of Rebol and Red.
If you are building Red only for you and ten others then it doesn't matter if you heed my advice or not. :-/
 
@HostileFork Writing a full compiler toolchain in Red is a more serious stress test for the language than porting Cheyenne. Also, as I said, I consider Cheyenne obsolete (it's 2005 technology), I don't want to port it, I want to rewrite it to take full advantage of what Red will offer concurrency-wise. Also, the entire web framework needs to be replaced by a modern one.
"The reason you will not get users and growth outside of Red will have nothing to do with what Red is written in or how fast the compilation is..." I never said that rewritting Red will have such effect, it is an internal need not a user-feature (except for the added final performances, but that's not critical in most use-cases).
 
@DocKimbel Well, it is all open source, there is as much possibility for me or anyone else to have another idea and approach. That is fine. But I have lots of experience with a bootstrapped DSL compiler and premature boostrap delayed the project's adoption and popularization by a decade or two at least.
 
@HostileFork good work on remastering the video. Bet it took longer to do than the talk itself!
 
A stable design, stable documentation, and verified usage in the field for even easy customers over time and iteration is better than getting locked into bootstrap issues too quickly.
If Red is not good enough as a compiler it is not Rebol holding it back. The only thing Red is bringing is more performance to the compilation process itself. Nothing else is a liability on Rebol.
 
10:22 PM
"If you are building Red only for you and ten others then it doesn't matter if you heed my advice or not." If you forbid innovation, you will still be stuck with C in 2050...do you really think that is a good thing? That is not my vision. Also, you're the first one so far who has an issue with learning Red/System, Andreas, Peter, Rudolf, Kaj, and many more... all wrote code and contributions for it, I don't remember anyone complaining that they prefer it to be C (on the contrary).
 
@DocKimbel Not forbidding innovation. And I have wondered why we have not seen more people building things like assemblers for 6502 and loading old video game code in Rebol to show how much more expressive it could have been, or what sort of patterns might have been captured to make it shorter.
 
CC now takes URLs (no form for it though): reb4.me/cc?s=http://www.fm.tul.cz/~ladislav/rebol/build.r
 
@HostileFork As I said, I'm considering some intermediary user-oriented tasks before starting the self-hosting stage, having the right timing is important and I'm still unsure when I will start it. I just know that the more I wait, the more troubles I will get in due to the limitations of the current compilers codebase.
 
And certainly lightening up the C syntax is nice. Red/System is good and comparable. These are fun things.
Well I think it would be good to run out of user-facing troubles in the design first, before picking on the programmer-facing concern that you cannot quite express the compilation process itself in a way that lets you make it "fast enough". You're putting a lot of emphasis on this because of the JIT but I think having a significant Red program whose biggest problem is that it's too slow should be a prerequisite to that.
 
Red/System will get better during the rewritting process (we call it Red/System "v2"), we will add some missing features (like more datatypes) and remove some others (like the preprocessor, but we'll keep some compilers pragmas).
 
10:26 PM
And I think it would be a mistake to choose the Red compiler itself, not currently written in Red, to become that first program by your own definition.
Having a compiler for a Rebol-like language is already faster. You've pointed it out. The speed will not be the first major problem. It is not fully baked at a design level. I will urge you to realize it is worth waiting. As you haven't said a "when" we can wait and see when the "when is". But my point above is what I will say again:
 
@HostileFork It is not just a matter of performances, the whole compiler architecture will change and I would like to switch to that asap. Anyway, spreading Red will be also a big concern once the current bootstrapped version will be more stable, so I will need to work on that too.
 
Having a significant Red program, besides the compiler itself, whose biggest user-facing problem is that it's too slow should be a prerequisite to doing bootstrap.
 
I will see once current Red version will be feature-complete how we proceed next. I have some business strategy to unroll too, so I need to make some place/time for it. Starting the work on the self-hosted version too soon might compromise the business strategy/opportunity, so, as I said, the timing is not set yet, and I still need to think about it when Red will be more mature.
 
@DocKimbel Okay. Well, if we keep the discussion open that is good. I will continue with the R3 patches and it does open some doors somewhere, maybe. There are also hybrid approaches that are not all one or all the other...a little JIT that is not the full Red compiler could be started and the full compiler kept in Rebol for a while.
My point is about not doing it for the sake of doing it, because you think it's a "good test". If you are a research group or academic project, maybe because your goal is to write a paper or something.
There are better tests for your first couple (hopefully many!) non-test-suite programs you write with a compiler than the compiler itself that you are using to compile itself! I can assure you this is true!!
 
BTW, there is a micro-webserver in my roadmap to include in Red once we get networking done. It will be the core of the new Cheyenne. The UniServe layer might be included right into the Red runtime and be exposed as the default API for building client or server schemes. I will try to move to a sequential programming approach instead of callback-based old way, so the whole internal Cheyenne API will completly change.
 
10:40 PM
@DocKimbel Well it will be interesting to see what you make, I like the idea of being motivated to pick the scheduling by business reasons. :-)
 
"My point is about not doing it for the sake of doing it" I think you'll see why it is worth it once I publish the self-hosted compiler specs in a few months. ;-)
 
@DocKimbel We'll see then. :-) For now I need to go run an errand, I will be back and hopefully doing some programming tonight. Wasn't feeling right last week but last night and today I seem to feel normal for some reason.
bbiab
 
@DocKimbel in order to Color Code Red(/System), I assume I'd just have to redefine script? (a pain 'cause it's native) and add support for hex notation. Any other gotchas?
Is it likely (or legal) to have hex-integers in paths?
 
11:03 PM
"Is it likely (or legal) to have hex-integers in paths?" Nope, it's not so far and I don't have plans to support it.
@rgchris "Any other gotchas?" Besides the hex notation, maybe just some additional Unicode variations of white-space character. See github.com/dockimbel/Red/blob/master/red/lexer.r#L80
 
Don't think that'll be a problem (he says).
 
@rgchris If your color coder is written in R2, dealing with Unicode issues could be a problem. One which you might have solved already, we hope :)
 
Probably not every case.
Be good to have some edge cases...
I assume UTF8 for now.
Since you're here @BrianH — what sequences does find-script look for?
 
11:31 PM
@rgchris Case-insensitive rebol at the beginning of a line after any whitespace, with a [ after any more whitespace. Possibly preceded by a [ at the beginning of a line after any whitespace with only whitespace between it and the rebol. Ending brackets don't matter.
 
I see it actually includes a preceding bracket:
>> script? "[ REBOL []]"
== "[ REBOL []]"
 
That is for script-in-a-block embedding.
 
I guess to maintain balance.
Yes, use that feature occasionally.
 
Nope, script-in-a-block embedding :)
 
>> script? "a^/[ REBOL []]alk;sdfj"
== "[ REBOL []]alk;sdfj"
Why doesn't it still go to "REBOL ["?
 
11:37 PM
Yeah, SCRIPT? doesn't return the beginning of the REBOL header, it returns the beginning of the script, which might be in a block. SCRIPT? doesn't decode the script though, that's LOAD's job.
>> script? "a^/[ REBOL [] alk;sdfj"
== "[ REBOL [] alk;sdfj"
 
The shortest positive? script? "REBOL["
 
Yup, SCRIPT? doesn't even check for whether the block-embedded script actually has a closing ], or even if the header block has a closing ].
The shortest negative that you might think has a header in it: "[a[rebol[]". If there are any opening [ before the header, there better not be any other characters between the [ and the header except whitespace and more [ characters (not sure why more [ characters are allowed).
"[][rebol[]" fails too, so closing ] doesn't restart the search for another [.
The code is in l-scan.c in the Scan_Head function.
 
11:52 PM
Scan_Head—love trying to read C :)
 
I am not used to chat yet. How did you make that link?
 
click on "help" at bottom right
"[" text "]" "(" url ")" gives active link
 
[Link](url)
(no space between '](')
 
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