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12:52 AM
@JacobGood1 Okay, pizza and a beer done, and now I will plug in the mac.
 
1:24 AM
posted on July 10, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: The & character is not usually a legal character in identifiers in programming languages, and is saved for operators and such. I have not seen much in the way of good uses of & in names... it's rather ugly. AT&T: "this seems pretty pointless" Even if we took it away from word characters we could have exceptions such as

 
1:40 AM
@HostileFork great!
 
@JacobGood1 @GrahamChiu proposed it as a donation drive measure to send private video links as they are edited to Rebol Foundation donors, which seems a reasonable idea to me. Otherwise people can wait until...whenever. But past donors can count I suppose. :-P
 
Yea, I donated for a while, not sure how long
id have to look at my records... too lazy to do that
 
@JacobGood1 It's the thought that counts. Anyway, we'll just put out notice and say donating this month gets you the videos early. It's more an awareness of "hey it would be nice if the server bills were paid by someone other than us-who-do-the-volunteer-work"
 
2:02 AM
And maybe people who like what they see will think "hey, yeah, I want to chip in a bit for this and help make it happen".
 
3:00 AM
Some rage going on in the red channel
I can't help but laugh, guess that is the gamer in me
Anyway, those videos should be public, so we can post them in the red channel =)
 
3:34 AM
@JacobGood1 What do you mean we, red man. Well it's not necessarily in my interests for 9214 to settle down, he disrupts well enough, makes my job easier. He should keep it up.
 
3:57 AM
@MarkI ^-- see above, as you have strong lexical opinions
 
4:29 AM
@JacobGood1 what is there to laugh about? Are you enjoying, that Just Jenny is behaving like a complete idiot and in my book, should be banned? The thing to think about is as follows - while noone in the Red channels comment about the Ren-C, it is not a singl week here without some pesky comments towards the Red. So please go and grow up ....
 
 
1 hour later…
5:57 AM
@pekr There are no easy answers in interpersonal conflicts or differences.
But to me the latest not-so-easy-to-answer problem, is "authenticity" vs. "inauthenticity". I think the deepfakes problems and the infinite spam problem are, well worth our attention.
 
6:14 AM
I think, that publicly asking questions and setting standards is the best idea. 9214 uses a number for his name, is very rude and confrontational, and is weird. He also has at least in one conversation (I feel, and others do) presented my conclusions as his own. Though I sort of baited that by reading their conclusions and commenting.
JustJenny is a bit of an oddity herself, in terms of, there aren't a lot of female programmers and certainly not a lot who show up discussing these esoteric concepts. According to her blog she transitioned from modeling to... Red programming? And then complains about 9214, and discusses right vs. wrong and the absoluteness of that. (I assure people I have nothing to do with any of this.)
My point being, trying to drive everything to private chat and silence, vs discussing "what's what", is the error. I know StackOverflow and Wikipedia aren't perfect, but to me they carry a beacon forward of how things can get better. I think clicking through the history and letting people understand what's actually happening is our only hope. Censorship and banning isn't.
I've argued that Red has errored in spirit. And I don't know if it's a coincidence that this argument coincides with the meltdown or not, but...
 
9214 tended to be problematic and I think that Gregg and/or Doc had him corrected, even publicly asking hime to tone down. But the rhetorics JustJenny shows is just pretty much primitive, more like a teenager like reactions ...
Then there was guy called wexcerciser or something like that. I first backed his free speach, but then he privately told me I am an ...hole too :-) He was banned for a good, for nothing, but personal attacks.
 
@pekr Well if we take it at face value (I tend not to take anything at face value, always looking for other angles...) then maybe she is a young programmer and it falls to the adult in the room to deal with it. They have youtube videos of puppies and older dogs for instance, and what you hope is that the older dog acts in a disciplined way.
 
Other than that, I am the last one agreeing to sterile rules, prohibited topics, like being pesked by mentioning Ren-C, etc.
The question is, how you change your rules, as community grows and you have tens or hundreds of ppl. You need to keep channel moderated a bit, at least to stay on topic. But imo friendly reminders are ok most of the time ....
 
Anyway, Gregg and I talked a bit about the question of "is this a technology project" or "is this a people project"
We're obviously not trying to make the thinnest cell phone or whatever, or the fastest compiler, so there's a big human factor in it.
 
Anyway - apart from some excessive occassional behaviour of some individuals, I think that both communities are kind of disciplined. I do remember the old days of some bigger communities (News channels anyone?), being pesked by just asking "the wrong" question ....
 
6:27 AM
I've mellowed out a bit.
 
As for Red, they now need to prove some technical aspects too. Ppl are asking for it, waiting for it. One of the first reactions to the new Wallet release was kind of - ok, but where is my IO release? :-)
 
@pekr Alan (firefighter) came to the conference and a lot of his questions for me were "what's the practical goal" - I come from a research background, so people ask these questions.
 
Team is now relocated to EU (just my anticipation based upon some observations), we now got better ARM support, and surprisingly even the basic gpio:// for RPi, JSON for interoperability, but that one was pre-announced ....
IIRc, Alan "firefighter" is a longtime Rebol community member. Macleod? IIRc his nick was Amacleod or something like that :-)
 
Yep, he's retired from firefighting now
But he was a teacher, made training tools based on Rebol
Anyway, I think by the end of conference he might have been swayed that what we're doing is useful
Most people seemed to be
Even the skeptic @sqlab who wasn't there and hasn't seen the videos:
yesterday, by sqlab
the progress seems really impressive
If he's impressed, that's... non trivial.
WebAssembly is a real thing; this is working. It's working on machines we use, phones we hold, etc. And as the TCC bootstrap shows, I've lined it up so that the original Rebol low dependency footprint is even lower and better than ever. The WASM/JS link is done in a way that's a quantum better than HostKit.
 
My webteam guy, along with two external parties we contract, use Angular, now in newer Typescript form, and for mobile dev, switched to Flutter framework, which really starts to be popular. I just wonder, if WebAssembly generally did take up, or not?
Well, WebAssembly is still web browser stuff, in my understanding.
Now even MS introduced the way to encap web apps into a separate ones. They all come back to what Rebol View was initially and ppl laughed at.
Need to move to work, so - later ....
 
6:40 AM
@pekr le tare
 
 
7 hours later…
2:07 PM
@pekr Is that the same Jenny who (a couple of years ago?) pointed Red/Rebolers to her website which had things like "programming makes me feel sexy" and "My legs are hot lol" all over it?
If so I expressed that this was in poor taste (as it would if a guy's tutorial was full of toxic masculinity). Iirc Doc rushed in to kiss her ass and hold her involvement up as some sort of gender breakthrough.
 
2:41 PM
I don't know, what she had/has at her website. It might be even a man, hiding behind the woman avatar, who knows. All I know is, that she is behaving like a teenager, but maybe it is just a language barrier on her part, who knows ....
 
@pekr no one comments about ren-c because they are not allowed to do so. Yes, I do find it funny when adults become inflamed over the most trivial of things. 9214 and Jenny have hyperbolic comments that are quite humorous. I am happy that in this channel we can talk about anything and poke fun at everything.
I think most people here support red, we just do so in a way that is more of a critiquing style instead of a yes man style. I will probably sling some money to try out their pro version, I am sure others in this channel will do so as well.
 
You have just one channel here, so you can talk about just anything here. Red, similar to altme, has many channels. That's why I have voted for the chit-chat channel, which we've got. I can understand, why someone objects, if a channel dedicated to development only, is spoiled by inapropriate stuff ....
As for me, I would suggest Red team to allow Ren-C mentions, but it is their call. Dunno, maybe they feel about it as a competing effort, potentially stealing resources to Ren-C, if it gains more followers. I don't necessarily see it that way, but that's just me ....
In this particular case, I don't like Jenny's remarks at all, 9214 being mostly OK, during some earlier days, 9214 was sometimes kind of harsh too ....
 
@Edoc your comment was hilarious, "a gender breakthrough" lol
 
3:08 PM
@Edoc RE: masculine Red... There was a gun-based Red tutorial which was a Russian roulette game, I forget where that was :-/ Nicky Case it was not.
@pekr Red has made a mistake I think, in confusing chat with institutional knowledge as per StackOverflow. Q&A should be done in a different medium that is properly curated and searchable.
I detest Slack.
In particular what I detest about Slack, as I travel, is that it seems every town that has some Meetup group or coworking space or community-driven development group, that they are so lazy as to use it. It's a paid Facebook that may not even be as good as Facebook, if that's even possible.
Using SO chat is lazy for us as well, but at least I trust the people who run SO, somewhat.
37
Q: Where are the Stack Exchange data dumps?

flybywireI see a lot of talk around here regarding the Stack Overflow public data dump. Where is it? How can I play with it? Return to FAQ index

8
Q: What is the license on Stack Overflow Questions and Answers?

Caleb JaresIf I want to copy a method from Stack Overflow, I usually put the name of the author and the link in a comment above it. I'm just wondering if there's any license in effect for all the code put in answers and questions as sample.

But what Slack has shown is that AltME could have been rather popular if it had run on the web and mobile (and not been based on flat files, though one might argue that's an implementation detail, but I think it's more than that)
Still doesn't make it good.
@pekr It is my intention that future Ren-C developers come from people trained on Red. They know that.
I am transparent.
 
3:41 PM
@HostileFork I don't envision that being an especially deep bench of developers. If dev community is important, Ren-C will likely need to appeal to a far broader audience.
 
@Edoc Of course, I just mean that if Red gets people thinking Rebol-y I don't see it as bad, it's their time spent teaching.
There will be some crossover point reached I think, but for now, if someone seems sufficiently n00b-like I'd still say "we're kind of advanced here, maybe you should go learn Red, here's their Gitter"...decision based on measured potential. :-P
@GrahamChiu wants us to switch to a Ren-C based web chat, and that is on the roadmap when it makes sense.
 
0
Q: Rebol: how to split a string into characters

awyr_agoredUsing Rebol how do I split this string into characters (without using a c-like approach with loops)? I'm using version 2.7.8.2.5 which does not have the split method. str: "Today is Monday" I want to split the above into: [ 'T' 'o' 'd' 'a' 'y' ' ' 'i' 's' ' ' 'M' 'o' 'n' 'd' 'a' 'y'] Parse me...

 
4:20 PM
0
A: Rebol: how to split a string into characters

HostileForkIn some Rebols (not Rebol2) you could use MAP-EACH to do this. In Rebol2, COLLECT and KEEP are fairly general and powerful ways of building up blocks: >> collect [foreach c str [keep c]] == [#"T" #"o" #"d" #"a" #"y" #" " #"i" #"s" #" " #"M" #"o" #"n" #"d" #"a" #"y"] I'll give you that one and...

 
5:00 PM
@rgchris Since you have all the contacts and have been emailing people about the conference, you should probably be the person to mail out to people about our fundraiser :-P which is that if people donate to the Rebol Foundation they will receive access to the videos as they are edited... while others will get them... at some later date, a couple months out.
The foundation funds our Amazon S3/Cloudfront costs, DNS costs, etc. Of course those costs are kind of insignificant compared to the hours twiddling the settings and making it all work (not speaking of course of all the development work, which is volunteer). I think Graham has more ambitious goals of raising enough money to do bounties for development, but I feel for now we should keep it modest at "pay the server and domain name fees and be happy".
The concept is that the donation need only be a token gesture, let's say $5, but Patreon donations are recurring by default (?) so the hope is that when they see the videos they'll think "hey, it's worth it to help out" and keep it continuous. But that would not be required.
Everyone who spoke at the conference gets the videos as they are edited, of course. Note my wording. :-P
 
5:22 PM
I'd like the web console to have a kind of social DJ playlisting thing, this would be today's music for instance...
 
 
1 hour later…
6:25 PM
@pekr Can we count you in for $5? :-P
 
7:20 PM
0
A: Rebol: how to split a string into characters

9214If you don't want to use loops, there's one nifty trick: >> head extract/into str 1 [] == [#"T" #"o" #"d" #"a" #"y" #" " #"i" #"s" #" " #"M" #"o" #"n" #"d" #"a" #"y"] OTOH, string! is already a series of char! values, so breaking it up into characters like that doesn't provide any clear bene...

 
@HostileFork Yes. If I get your approval, I will add my disapproval comment to the forum.
You know I hate adding negative things without knowing ahead of time that they are respect-worthy.
My opinion, and it is just that, is that ampersand (&) is actually a letter, and always has been.
The mathematical-expression-in-ASCII (or even EBCDIC, I don't know) crowd stole it for an operator, and most everybody these days has only seen that usage.
But I have seen, and fairly recently even, "&c" for "etc." (which is for "et cetera").
And its use for an abbreviation for the word "and" is of course common.
 
@MarkI Your disapproval is approved, make your case... it doesn't mean it won't get overridden, but your input may direct what happens.
@MarkI all well on the trip back? did they question your papers? :-P
 
From the other side, supporting the IMO silly HTML char "codes" (who needs another set of codes? Unicode roolz!) is fraught with its own perils ...
The fact that case has to be significant being a not-small one.
@HostileFork Okay. I'll write it up.
 
@MarkI Well that's why I mentioned that particular one.
 
@HostileFork I got grilled by the guy on the Canada side, no idea why: "Who did you meet? How long have you known them? Have they ever come to Canada?" WTF?
Anyway, no problems really, thanks for asking!
 
7:36 PM
@MarkI For Montreal, my way in (night time) was a pain, US side searched my car thoroughly, Canada side was looking for a way to charge me money and/or not let me in... my way back (day time), nothing on either side. I paid some toll and rolled through.
I did mention to you to say it was a social thing, visiting a friend, not say anything about a conference, I hope.
I made a mistake with that.
 
He still does not know I was at a conference. That was all because I said it was a social thing.
 
Good. There are two reasons not to say it. #1 they don't like it if you are coming to recruit talent, that's threatening. #2 they want to tax and fee you doing business.
 
But I wasn't even asked why I was going, on the way down. Not one question. This was all to let me back in to my own country.
 
Funny, that.
I guess in my case it makes sense, I was "being let back into my own country" so hence the less hassle.
I do not think the record will show this (or Montreal) as anything other than a social thing, no lies were involved, no one is recruiting (well, maybe Atronix, so as the sole foreigner if you promise not to work for them it's fine)... and no products were bought or sold.
That makes it more a "Meetup" than an "industry event" by I think any measure of taxation
 
7:51 PM
If Red wants me to not be angry, they should probably set it so when I click those links I don't have to open an incognito browser to read them. :-/ In related news...
@MarkI and @Edoc and @rgchris got to have fun trying to mitigate the discussion with Gregg. And, in a way, kudos to Gregg for putting himself out there. Like I say, that wasn't nothing.
He got points. They may be Gregg points and not necessarily transferable to Red points. Depends what they do, and how he spends his Gregg points. :-P
Of course, the best move he could make would be to abandon them and join us, but, not likely. So, we'll see what the less-than-best-move is. Heh
@DaviddenHaring cited my philosophy seemingly inspired by Sun Tzu, and @ShixinZeng said he hadn't heard of him, but I think that might have been an issue of pronunciation. :-)
 

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