« first day (3061 days earlier)      last day (719 days later) » 

12:06 AM
@HostileFork Any ETA on when the thinking will lead to building an independent web app? Just trying to figure out if it is a possibility for my needs in the near term.
 
@Respectech I am not in the business of offering such ETAs but would engage those with resources to apply in building such estimates.
More generally--I am not a business, I do not make a product, and I do not make guarantees. But I will enable those trying to do those things.
The one thing I have said is that I want a web tutorial to teach the language by the end of the year, and that it will run 24/7 and teach. That's the closest to a promise I've made.
I will attempt to hold to that.
 
@Respectech also see this form from Brian Otto hack
 
@HostileFork I might be able to help with the web tutorial if I have a place to start...
 
@Respectech We're ready to believe you. I guess the thing is, you can start as you've seen by putting some files out on GitHub and DO'ing them. The error handling is still a nebulous matter, and I'd like to see halting and escape to cancel infinite loops, but these are always wily matters that are cross-cutting.
@Respectech Getting involved is probably best done after trying some simple demos, maybe copying the methods of something like https://gitlab.com/hostilefork/popupdemo/raw/master/popupdemo.reb. One step at a time. And then if you want to install C compilers and build your own copy of the library that's another thing.
And... I know people don't like reading, but, I write a lot about things and I actually think it's usually pretty good, and if I'm wrong I go back and edit it if I can.
 
12:22 AM
I'm really good at overextending myself, especially when I'm undertaking projects of personal interest that I can also spin as business-related.
Your writing is quite good.
3
 
@Respectech I think right this immediate moment is too early for most to get involved. If someone's curious I think it's good to support it, and as I said, I'm up for fixing bugs in Graham's power calculator. But really we're still at that "hello world" stage so I definitely don't want people to be raising the bar too far...still have a lot to do with error handling and cancellation and a lot of cross-language issues.
 
12:40 AM
@HostileFork I'll keep my eyes on the project. Licking my lips...
 
@Respectech Conference in Philadelphia weekend after July 4th...supposedly a fun place to be at that time, if you haven't had a vacation in a while could be fun...
Come for the 4th, stay the weekend.
I note that no one has spoken up for the usefulness of refinements with more than one argument...
Which is good! I think if we could agree that refinements have no arguments or 1 argument, it makes a lot of things better and you can expect feature advancements based on filling in the space that complexity used to occupy.
@middayc See all the above ^-- notice your avatar here now and again but you haven't said anything for a while...
 
@HostileFork Sounds interesting. I'm looking forward to more info. Speakers, who's planning to attend, etc.
@HostileFork So are you talking about 'insert/dup copy {} {-} 10' ?
 
@Respectech /dup takes only one argument
So my concept is that the function should say /dup [integer!] and the value would be named in the function frame as "dup" and it would be blank if the refinement were not used.
 
hi @HostileFork ... I am keeping an eye on what going on in ren-c and red land ... I mainly wisit when I should work but lack focus ... so I need a little distraction :)
 
@middayc Things move along, main development to note here is that it's the beginning stages of being able to do a script via URL from the web REPL, which is neat, and then js-do to run a javascript or css-do for css. It's the basics for making simple apps, so as long as people are willing to give "friendly feedback" I encourage it being tried. Lots to do to get it in shape though.
 
12:58 AM
I haven't see this. Unfortunately, I am building a house last/this year (from hempcrete) so I have very limited time for working/maintaining my saas and mobile apps. So no time to experiment really. Absurdly, during the 1 week vacation I did rewrite my toy rebol like interpreter from JS to Go-lang aprox 2 months back :P
 
@middayc Life is frequently absurd...
 
@HostileFork toy apps are useful for finding bugs like the decimal! 1.0 - can node.js or something run the test suite?
or do we need to fetch a test suite from the browser?
 
@GrahamChiu Node has, interestingly enough, added support for WASM and threads in recent versions. Emscripten just hasn't juggled their support around for it yet. It's an interesting question, why not run the test suite from the browser?
You've said it, I like it, so... let's figure that out.
 
@HostileFork yeah so it could be a console app
 
 
5 hours later…
6:16 AM
posted on March 19, 2019 by gchiu

to money! $1 ** Script Error: cannot use copy on money! value ** Where: copy to console ** Near: [copy '$1 ~~] ** Line: 1

 
 
2 hours later…
8:17 AM
@GrahamChiu To copy money is an illegal action anyway ;-)
 
 
2 hours later…
10:16 AM
posted on March 19, 2019 by giuliolunati

place there all replpad-js stuff NB there is not and index.html use replpad.html or template.html instead

 
 
1 hour later…
11:17 AM
Eine weiteres wichtiges Teil des neuen, aber noch nicht veröffentlichten Projekts Titan für den #RaspberryPi ist fertig. Für alle #DIY #Maker und #Teckies, die einen in #3D-Druck gefertigten #autonomen #Roboter basierend auf #Rebol und dem #RasPi bauen möchten. Demnächst mehr...
 
11:43 AM
@Edoc Welcome back from the party!
^-- TGD is another person who one would presume would be interested in Ren-C advancements and probably should be outreached to...
 
12:33 PM
So it seems to me that PARSE needs commands for changing the file and line it's working with, and that it can imbue any values it scans with this information. This goes along with something I argued with BrianH about when he was asking what the interface for TRANSCODE should look like, and I said TRANSCODE's functionality should be exposed via PARSE.
It might seem obvious to name these commands file and line, but it runs into the problem PARSE has that anyone who has written copy line to x or set file y could arguably run into trouble. It does not technically have to be a problem, you could say file: %foo.txt | line 100 | parse data [file file line line ...]. But that's like saying copy copy to x. :-/
Although, you have to get the line number updated...so you'd have to pass that as a variable I guess. parse/file/line data rules %foo.txt 'line-num
The point is, that if you say parse/file/line text-or-binary [any-value!] ... then you want parse to be able to annotate the blocks as it goes with the file and line number.
 
1:05 PM
@HostileFork Thanks! I'll reach out.
 
 
4 hours later…
5:27 PM
Since no one has spoken in defense of more-than-one-argument-per-refinement, I'm going to be going ahead with the plan for saying that refinements represent a single "named and optional parameter". The Redbol emulation will be a simple one, which allows the old notation with arguments having their own name -but- you'll only be able to do one argument that way.
 
@HostileFork I don't understand why that limitation is necessary.
 
@Respectech For the emulation it is not necessary, but it's certainly easier if the core implementation is written to only do one argument per refinement to not customize that by doing your own variadic refinement processing.
For why it's advantageous in the core, if the post doesn't explain it well enough, I guess you might have to take my word for it as I write the evaluator and things like SPECIALIZE, and if I say "holy cow this simplifies and streamlines everything!" then it's probably worth taking my word for it.
The goal is a powerful system that gets its power from more cleverness, not more code...so if there's swaths of complexity eliminated and speed gained by saying "refinements are single named optional parameters" then we want those swaths to go. Multiple arguments per refinement aren't worth it.
You can put your arguments in a BLOCK!. And with GET-BLOCK! you don't even need a reduce. foo/bound x :[lower upper]
(Although whether a GET-BLOCK! acts as a REDUCE or a GET of a BLOCK! I have not completely settled on. It may be that it walks a middle ground that keeps GET-BLOCK! and GET of a BLOCK! in parallel, where GET [(1 + 2)] will give you [3], but GET [1 + 2] is an error)
(I just had that idea, but in fact, it looks to be a decent compromise.)
 
5:51 PM
@HostileFork I've always considered that it may have been a good design decision to have refinement arguments as a block! anyway...
 
Mostly I feel like Graham's philosophy is right, that if you find you have too many refinements or refinements taking too many options, your function probably should be some kind of dialect.
 
6:15 PM
So many things are coming together. "Elevating the Art"!
 
6:27 PM
In other "time for decisions" news, the reversion of ISSUE! to an ANY-STRING! is upon us. It makes more sense, especially now that /abc is a PATH! equivalent to [_ abc] and /1 is a PATH! equivalent to [_ 1], we don't worry that /1 encroaches on "is 1 a legal WORD!". ISSUE! shouldn't be the odd man out, and we know we want #123 to be legal, so that answers that.
Generalized TUPLE! will give us .foo with a binding, so that should make up for losing the binding on #foo.
 
6:49 PM
The other path of thinking would be that #foo is truly "unevaluated WORD!"...basically the evaluator-inert form of WORD! you should use for enumerated types and such. But like I say, if we were to go that route, it would kill off #123, which would make people mad. If we're going to do such a form, it would probably have to be new, like @foo, which we might imagine calling XXX-WORD!, e.g. INERT-WORD! or AT-WORD! or something.
Then we might make @(...), @[...], @a/b ... this would be an answer to our problem where you want to pass quoted branches, but can't unless it soft quotes. It could be an extra form. x: @(1 + 2) => @(1 + 2)
 
7:15 PM
I went on a tangent the last two days after finding a cross-platform [webview](https://github.com/zserge/webview) that was written in C++. I wanted to see if replpad-js could be run on it and learned a few things on the Windows side :) So just an FYI, if anyone is interested in going down that path ...

In Windows, you have to use the EDGE control instead of the MSHTML one, because MSHTML is based on their older IE browser and does not support WASM. In theory, EDGE should, but I never actually got far enough to try it.
2
 
@BrianOtto Neat...definitely good to take a survey of where things are at these days. I tried out ExtJS a long, long time ago
 
posted on March 19, 2019 by hostilefork

Currently the way we are doing things, the MIME type on S3 is not set correctly to Application/WASM. That is because we're just using Travis's stock deploy step. They have a very narrow mention of Content-Type for some text encoding, but I don't see anything mentioned about being able to give a list of filenames and content types: https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/deployment/s3/#setting-conten

 
Mentioning ExtJS just in context of tangents, and I don't know between all these competing approaches where the momentum is nowadays.
 
The company I work for built an online, file management system using ExtJS many years back, and I ended up being the lucky maintainer for it. Man, I did not like that framework. The framework itself had so many quirks and bugs and the documentation was never up-to-date.
 
@BrianOtto I feel like boxing and packing an app-with-a-browser-in-it is a bit contentious with Rebol's ethos. It might be close enough to run a webserver based on httpd.r or something on localhost and then let that have access to the native resources and stuff.
I kind of feel like the EXEs should be integrated with some lighter and more Rebol-appropriate framework, Qt has Qt-lite and while it's not precisely tiny, you get a lot of bang for your buck there. And that's well-documented and robust.
I hear mixed things about JUCE. I installed it to look at their widget demos and it was... ok. (They really should make a webpage gallery showing them, vs forcing you to download/compile/run the demo.) But it comes up in conversation as small and cross-platform for C++.
I'm a lot more comfortable with Qt. Does a lot and does it pretty well.
I guess what you're talking about is being able to use native browsers users already have as controls so its still light.
 
7:34 PM
Yea, I see your point about app-with-browser being a bit contentious with Rebol's ethos, but this webview specifically would use the OS' native one and so there is no need to package it with the exe. I think it would at least give you some great momentum. All those JavaScript developers out there might start becoming interested in Rebol now, and it gives Rebol developers a cross platform GUI.
Though I don't know if full applications could be built, a browser webview still limits access to things and so I don't think you could write a Rebol app that did stuff requiring local file access (though maybe a browser's local storage could be an option).

Anyway, just wanted to try it out. I learned a lot about UWP :)
I am not very familiar with Qt, but I have heard good things about JUCE and it does sound nice based on the website.
 
@BrianOtto Well definitely keep trying and work on whatever you want. As I said--I'd rather have people being around and giving feedback and helping advance things than working on something boring that they lose interest in and quit, where then nothing advances! So I'm not too prescriptive.
 
7:59 PM
@giuliolunati You said we can build the emterpreter as WASM, and still have a fallback that reads the .wasm file and translate to asm.js ? Is this the plan for non-WASM browsers? Emscripten does not do this automatically, I take it.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:44 PM
I don't think supporting non-WASM browsers is much of a priority. But if it's easy and we do it, we need the messages giving you guidance to where to do the settings to give the right message. (@GrahamChiu is looking into making the instruction guides to say where to push what switch in what browser)
 
@HostileFork yes, it's on my todo list for June.
 
@GrahamChiu Probably won't be needed before that, so fine by me. :-P I think just throwing up a little picture for Firefox and Chrome will suffice. I'm not terribly concerned about "all those Edge and Opera users"
 
 
1 hour later…
10:46 PM
What would really be useful is a way to tap into changes
so, I can't recall what replaces number?
so if I could do .. help number? .. and instead of saying there's no help, it could point me to the replacement function
 
@GrahamChiu It's ANY-NUMBER! now, and these concerns are meant to be addressed by r2warn.reb, which is meant to work with redbol.reb so that you can run a script compatibly but find out what you need to change as you hit it. e.g. get a log of what you need to change from running the program a bit.
So it should be redbol-warn.reb I guess.
We can probably integrate that into the console sooner than being able to make Redbol work.
 
there's no line editing in replpad?
 
11:06 PM
@HostileFork I have two concerns:
The first is along the lines of "is that really really REALLY necessary for Beta/One?". I certainly appreciate all you are doing, and by no means am I saying stop. But I do like to take some time to think over things and their consequences, and sometime I feel that when you propose something, you take "silence for one hour" to mean enthusiastic, idolatric acceptance.
Is there a way I can say "wait just a few seconds" on that one in particular? How about your next idea(s) in general?
The second concern is that you seem to have completely missed what I consider to be a huge advantage of the feature, namely, argument type checking.
 
@MarkI I mention type checking. /whatever [integer!] means, check it for integer. /whatever means resolve it just to a blank or /whatever if it's used.
 
Yes. I saw that, But I am instead talking about /foo a [integer!] b [char!].
/foo [block!] is a poor substitute IMO.
 
Yes, well that problem is generalized so I'd like a generalized solution.
 
I suspect we can compensate for this if we add a new feature that allows structural type checking. But, that is a big, big, feature. So, can you wait for that?
 
I started looking a bit at that with MATCH and was thinking that things like [block!.2] would mean "2 element block" for instance, there were some developments on a dialect there that are experimental and being thought about.
I do not think that multiple refinement arguments are high enough priority to justify the waiting. Type checking one argument is enough.
There's a huge advantage in the core, and one thing we're aiming at is performance parity or exceeding the performance of R3-Alpha, even with all the features.
 
11:16 PM
Again, just my opinion, but this is the wheels of progress moving too swiftly and trampling the innocent victim.
 
I'm okay saying you can only have one refinement argument if it gets you there, and if you need more than one refinement argument because you insist you make a variadic.
It's not going to be made impossible, it just won't be as fast as everything else, and the system will not revolve around it.
 
It is wisest to make optimising wait for as late as possible.
 
It's not about optimization. It's about the shape of the code and the edge cases, and cutting out the "swaths of complexity" that I mention.
The bad kind of optimization is optimization that adds code. For that, you should wait as long as possible.
 
Sometimes complexity is essential. I have said my piece. Thanks for listening.
 
Well, what you've said indicates that we need design on a more complex language for type checking
A matter with which I agree
Having a function is one way, and it seems interesting, e.g. x [even?] would be one, but I think you need to be able to mix in a comprehensible way, so you can pre-filter that with integer! without having to make an even-integer? function.
If you want to add your thoughts to the forum post go ahead. What's there now is just a learning experiment though, and I imagine will change a lot.
One matter we run into, being imperative, is the question of if you're going to have specialization and want to say something is "pre-typechecked" but the function gives a different answer.
So I'm definitely leaning on the mechanics for a pure operation, which I think would operate something like const, in that it's more a declaration that the things you are calling you expect to be pure and so if they aren't you get an error. No a-priori checking, but you catch violators in the act.
It seems the kind of softer "you get what you pay for" approach to pure functional programming which fits Rebolism. And it would fit in nicely with what functions should be legal in these typecheckers.
CONST laid the groundwork for this so I think PURE could be prototyped a bit relatively quickly just to see what kinds of possibilities or problems it would have.
Instead of MUTABLE there could be DEFILE. :-P
 

« first day (3061 days earlier)      last day (719 days later) »