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2:20 AM
posted on October 17, 2018 by johnk-

Updated link to system.r to new location by johnk-

 
 
1 hour later…
3:20 AM
posted on October 17, 2018 by hostilefork

This commit contains builds of ZeroMQ made manually on a local virtual machine set up to mirror the conditions of the Travis CI containers that cross-compile Windows builds on Linux. If the build process were adapted to use these pre-built static libraries, it could produce an executable that would not require users to install any DLLs to use ZeroMQ functionality.

 
 
4 hours later…
6:59 AM
@Oldes It seems CryptAcquireContextW is deprecated and could stop working at any time (they claim). More stuff to worry about.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:20 AM
posted on October 17, 2018 by hostilefork

The last set of committed binaries to build Ren-C were chosen somewhat at random by Shixin. They have worked reasonably well, at least any bugs have been able to be worked around. There have been many significant changes since then--and it's something of a testimony to the flexibility of even the year-and-a-half old Ren-C that it has been able to adapt. The bootstrap code has been able to be

 
 
3 hours later…
12:21 PM
@HostileFork Which build integrated // for comments?
 
12:43 PM
One thing that helps REBOL be readable and usable even though it combines infix and prefix operations is to make the words of the former be symbol-heavy if not solely symbolic (think + - *) and have the latter be (prefereably correct English) alphabetic-heavy if not solely alphabetic (think head reverse sort copy data).
Even adding arrow-words to the language was welcome as a way to increase the space available for those symbolic operations that make sense to be infix.
Having words (like MOD) be infix is wrong. Even AND and OR are inherently wrong, but they can be put up with, just like ? can be put up with as being prefix. A limited number of special cases is bearable.
But there needs to be push-back on going against this readability idea in general, and ESPECIALLY when it is being done just to forward a single-person agenda of allowing // for comments.
3
I will not even mention that this change is also extremely horrible because it destroys all slashes words, not just //.
Looks like the commit that destroyed all slashes-words was made on August 31 but that that was mentioned only in an issue, not here in the main group.
Okay so I mentioned it. Twice. Sue me :)
 
1:21 PM
Wow, sorry, this was hard to find ... the commit only happened one day ago, but I had to winkle that out of the commit itself, there was no direct mention here, there was only an indirect mention in the most recent Ren-C Issue post, and the forum topic post that contains the only direct mention of the commit is only dated "5 months later".
So there is hope that not too many people have started using this commit, and that it is not too late to back it out.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:49 PM
@MarkI N. O.
Your vision is incompatible with my work. Go make a fork. Infix is not inherently wrong, it is intrinsic to the design.
I have deleted your comment, I will email you a copy if you would like it for your records. You have been overruled repeatedly to the point at which you are now considered spam on this topic.
There is a number N at which repeating yourself when I already know your opinion--and disagree with it--becomes spam. You have crossed that N.
It represents far too much of your ratio of conversation in the past 6 months to be acceptable.
 
3:20 PM
I will be clear: if I am not going to take GitHub issue comments seriously as worth responding to, they will be deleted--so that the thread does not look like I'm not responding. And I'm not going to repeat myself. Everyone who wanted to say something had a chance to on a forum thread. We hammered through # and -- and many considerations and landed on the thing that I have wanted for years, and I am more than comfortable with the decision at this point.
Since Oldes agrees with you enough to star you, you are free to join his fork. He has one. There's also Red. Many choices, where you can make ///// a WORD! all day long.
My overall willingness to listen to and consider all angles and feedback, try things and debate them over time, is not something that is going to be taken advantage of in this way.
Certainly when the process is the most open--the most discussed--the most reasoned, I am not going to stand for being dictated to by non-code contributors whose track record for a long time has been to show up in the early morning for a few minutes once a week only to complain. There's so many forum posts with no feedback on them that I outright resent this kind of involvement.
 
3:57 PM
By the by, mod being infix is absolutely, fully, standard math notation. Whereas // being remainder is absolutely not any kind of standard whatsoever. Not to mention the laughable hypocrisy of wanting to defer to BASIC's REM because it was a kind of comment (after complaining about using a comment notation from far more relevant languages). It's remainder in Haskell and Clojure: stackoverflow.com/questions/5891140
 
4:50 PM
posted on October 17, 2018 by giuliolunati

MODULO manages 'almost 0' and 'almost B' cases returning 0 /STRICT disable that behaviour MOD is the enfix form of MODULO/STRICT

 
 
2 hours later…
6:47 PM
I have crossed a line?
There were 8 people who expressed opinions in the comment syntax thread, not including you and I.
How many of them were for //?
One. (draegtun)
You simply deny/delete any argument that opposes you, and when called on it, you just say "I won't repeat myself."
This is the HF fan club, pure and simple.
Enjoy it, but do not imply you are making choices that only a few stupid people disagree with.
 
@MarkI This is the place where I try and get things done and not be demoralized. Your contributions of late have erred almost entirely on the demoralization side of things, and as such, given the lack of other work contributed it is a problem.
 
Comments are acceptable only when they come from a contributor?
Then only your comments are acceptable!
You are the one that takes criticism as demoralizing.
You should be taking them as empowering.
You know you are doing great work!
 
@MarkI Speaking only to criticize when there's tons of work items and forum posts to feed back into and help develop is counterproductive. youtube.com/watch?v=upxJc75tCYA
 
But nobody is perfect, and not all decisions are the best for all.
You are the one doing the demoralizing here, calling me counterproductive. Stopping bad work is as important as creating good work.
 
; is not being taken away. The thing being taken away is //, ///, ////, etc. as WORD!s and you are hinged to the idea that is somehow a paramount feature. I am baffled as to why. make path! [// //] or make path! [/ ///] ad nauseum. It's not a useful direction.
What has happened with / becoming a zero length path is that things are being resolved that were problems before. And as I say, I am not just the developer, I am a user, and a critically important one. I am the one who gets the experience of mixing JavaScript and Rebol and being annoyed about changing comment styles more than ever.
 
6:54 PM
I am not afraid of repeating myself. Slashes words don't go neatly into paths, that is true. But lots of other things don't either, like set-words or files or urls.
So that is not an argument. Stop making it.
 
It is quite so an argument. That would be like saying that PRINT allowed arbitrary execution of values and so branches should too because it was a problem. But over time, the branches were changed back to needing to be BLOCK! (or ACTION!) and then, a compromise--a good one--is that PRINT still allows TEXT! strings but only that and BLOCK!.
You don't solve problems by noticing there's another similar problem elsewhere and throwing up your hands and saying "let chaos reign"
 
Yet compromises are acceptable by pointing out other compromises that were and saying "let compromises rule"?
I'm not going to argue about arguing.
 
Good!
Key point is here about these ?? !! // kinds of things: forum.rebol.info/t/theory-of-symbols-and-repurposing-and/834
I believe I am coming more somewhat in the @rgchris school of thought about it, where Rebol's advantage of texty-like syntax is not to become symbol soup, and as such it's good to use these for non-code things. Like breakpoints, debug output, and...barriers on which the other side is not code.
I think ?? and !! as ternary operators turned out to be a mistake, and when something is a mistake it is reverted. But when things succeed, they are kept.
 
// comments are wrong, because they are too close to correct syntax. Semi-colon is almost never correct syntax, even when it is inside strings or tags.
Disagreeing with 87.5 percent of the people who expressed their opinion, well, maybe that's not wrong, but it is certainly not ... great.
 
@Edoc is in support of them IIRC while not having posted. opposing is a more interesting statistic, which puts you in a club with iArnold and Oldes.
And all of Red, implicitly, but I'm about 0% interested in that.
"Too close to correct syntax" isn't much of a sensible argument in Rebol, where a:b and a: b and a :b are all different things. I'm baffled about what makes // so special in your mind.
What I have to consider is that the primary audience for the work is not historical Rebol users, it's going to be new people. The existing base would not be working on the project any more even if I bowed to their whims on such design issues. Basically, it is noise.
Listening to you on this would not cause you to fire up your compiler or change one thing. It would just be giving in to some kneejerk reaction you're having because you like // as an operator. And I don't. Moreover I like it as a comment. And I don't care for ;.
 
7:13 PM
Slash is one of the most syntactically varied characters in Rebol. It has meaning as an escape for newline in strings, it is used as a mode character in refinements, it is used as a separator in paths, and it is used as content in files and urls, as well as as a word character in the divide infix. I am not pro-slashes-in-words as much as I am against using it in yet another syntactical way!
Does that help at all?
 
I don't like slash use for newline in strings either.
 
That is one of the uses for which it has English precedent, as it is used to separate lines in quotations of poetry.
 
It is no longer a word character in divide infix, which is a very nice aspect of "splitting" being a behavior of zero length paths.
"abcdef" / 2 => ["abc" "def"]
 
It is well known that you do not care for semicolon. Is that so important to you that you will not be happy unless and until you can write every Rebol program in a semi-colon free form?
 
/ dispatching to the type on the left to interpret the behavior of what to do when a zero-length path is used as an operator
 
7:17 PM
You are splitting hairs here HF (haha). Your treatment of sole / is equivalent to making it a word with some function definition.
 
It's not equivalent, because the evaluator is not the only user of the parts in the parts box.
 
Calling it a "zero-length path" is a difference without a distinction, whatever use a user puts it to.
 
It is a big difference if zero length paths are legitimate things that can exist, like empty blocks and groups, and you have to have a representation for them.
@MarkI It is important to me to comment code. It is important to me for code to have good aesthetics when I look at it. Semicolon does not offer me the aesthetic properties I'm looking for in the code I would like to show people as evidence of the work. Yes, it's f'ing important.
What is not important to me: // as remainder. Beyond not being important, I think it is confusing and bad in terms of how it looks to people coming from any other language, and the mires these kinds of words create for the system are confusing and bad also.
 
Swearing is a giveaway that you know you are being unreasonable. And I never said that // as remainder is important. I only said that I think infix alphabetics are undesirable.
 
No, it's a giveaway that I'm very annoyed and you said you weren't going to argue.
I have decided this and I took a long time to do it.
 
7:25 PM
About arguing. Not about swearing :) Okay, you win that one.
You took a long time to rationalize ignoring 7 different opinions HF!
Anyway, it is clear that you are not going to be swayed, whether by facts or arguments or opinions.
 
I don't care what Rebolek or Oldes say when it comes to any opinions about changing the Golden Truths of Rebol2. Count them out entirely.
 
That still leaves 6. Johnk garbage bucket? rgchris? gchiu?
 
Opinions on using -- were shot down and I agree with reasonings for shooting it down. Opinions on using # were shot down and I agree with reasonings for shooting it down.
They do not have vociferous anti-// opinions AFAIK.
They might have other things they want, like graham likes backslash
I do not, however, want to use backslash for that.
 
Straw man. You said it best yourself, it's down to two choices: stay with semi-colon forever, or switch to //.
Since you're never going to do the former, that leaves ... me sad.
 
Semicolon is still a comment, use it to your heart's content, stop trying to force me to do things your way.
Which is what this actually is.
You're just casting it in a way to try and sound sympathetic due to status quo, but it's totally you being a tyrant.
 
7:33 PM
Since there is no way to add // as a comment to the language without destroying slashes-words, I accept that I have to be a bit tyrannical to save them.
 
They are not worth saving, and this discussion is officially over.
I have things to do.
 
It's never been a discussion anyway. It's just been me whining and you laying down the law.
 
^-- See above, it's you trying to lay down the law. You're not losing anything worthy of this level of passion, the usability of // and /// and //// is a snake pit, and arguing for !!/?? to be a "slash-word" would make no sense, so it's basically nonsense because you don't like the idea of me using comments I like.
While having the comments you want just as before.
The story and metaphor of The Dog in the Manger derives from an old Greek fable which has been transmitted in several different versions. Interpreted variously over the centuries, the metaphor is now used to speak of one who spitefully prevents others from having something for which one has no use. Although the story was ascribed to Aesop's Fables in the 15th century, there is no ancient source that does so. == Greek origin == The short form of the fable as cited by Laura Gibbs is: "There was a dog lying in a manger who did not eat the grain, but who nevertheless prevented the horse from being...
 
I//can//think//of//syntax//extensions//that//could//use//multiple//slashes//my//‌​friend.
 
That does work. It's a PATH! with REFINEMENT!s.
 
7:44 PM
But///not///this!
 
Nope, that is currently an error, though it could be a syntax extension.
The // rule only applies if there's whitespace or an end of line before it.
 
Your code says "beginning of a token", but maybe you make an exception mid-path.
 
Yep.
 
And//times//like//10:00//are//not//refinements -- just to be complete about it.
 
Tim Berners Lee apologizes for extra slashes in URLs: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8306631.stm
I'm not completely clear on how things like IMAGE! meaningfully are "ANY-SERIES!" or even what that means, really.
Rebol's type classes have caused confusion lately (e.g. ANY-SCALAR!). Seems to me the concept that things belong in multiple type classes (like being enumerable, showable, etc.) as in Haskell makes more sense.
 
8:41 PM
@HostileFork Since I was mentioned I'll waste a few bytes on the subject and (likely) further agitate everyone. I am in support of // for comments, but weakly so. Why? To me, this is not a critical design issue. It's just not-- it's not even in the top 100.
I understand completely that language design is an accumulation of many small details. But this detail does not occupy my thoughts. I'm grateful when others make their opinions known over these matters because I agree that it's critical to consider different points of view, particularly when it's an issue I don't have a strong opinion on.
 
@Edoc Your top 100 list is a forum post waiting to happen. :-)
 
And I'll state this because it's natural: When the dev/architect who is doing 99% of the heavy lifting (and much of the light lifting as well) in a project makes a design recommendation with a reasonable justification (over something which I don't have a strong opinion), I'm inclined to go along and see how it works out. Because it's an experiment, and some ideas are worth trying and learning from even when they don't ultimately work out.
2
Designs have been tried, tested and reversed here before. I think we've been fortunate to try some things out for size and then revisit down the road. It's not the fastest path forward but I think it's probably the best informed approach.
2
 
9:03 PM
So... not like I'm an arbiter in this discussion, but I do support HF's proposal. One of the two camps may turn out to be wrong about the design; I personally have no problem admitting fault and rethanking those voices here who proved to be correct. As long as the deliverable improves via the (admittedly flawed) process, and we collectively benefit for having been patient, respectful and supportive of the project.
 
Thank you for posting this @Edoc. I do have a strong opinion, but I am willing to temper it, and, as you so rightly say, we can try it out for size and maybe revisit down the road. I really did not mean to dictate to Brian, but I definitely was sounding tyrannical, and I apologise both explicitly to him and in general to everyone for stirring things up so much over what is really a small detail.
 
@MarkI All fine, but I do ask that if you're going to be involved and invoke dogged discussion points, there's quite a lot of stuff that is very much in the air that needs vetting and commentary. Better to focus on that than things I've already decided and that we've already gone over.
Note that on the forum I'm the only poster on nearly every thread.
2
So if I wake up to 13 chat notifications after being up all night working out how to build zeromq statically on a 2014 cross compilation system, including having to hunt down a bug in that version of the compiler that only applies to 64-bit systems when cross-compiling as C++ (zeromq is written in C++)...
...I'm likely to be mad when that's what they are.
I think // comments, and the zero-length path change, are going to spruce up ergonomics and close some dark corners. If it doesn't and something turns out to be terribly wrong, they can change back. But so far, so good...and not having / in WORD!--plus having a simple and obvious rendering for zero length paths when they occur--helps put some stakes in the ground that are useful for the system implementation and for users alike.
 
9:34 PM
@Edoc Thanks... I think it will turn out well. But the best way for people to know whether things are turning out well or not is... to use it! Graham says he'll abandon his 8th kludge to support missing R2 functionality now that we have a Windows build with ZeroMQ and TLS 1.2. So keep asking if there's anything you need to be using the system...
 
@MarkI Back atcha. I think it's good for strong opinions to be hashed out even when tensions run high. @HostileFork is definitely a salty guy, but he puts his opinions/decions out there and actively solicits input/feedback and reconsiders when necessary.
Language designers are dictatorial, usually out of necessity. I'd say that @HostileFork is miles ahead of the other projects (including original rebol), where the design decisions were/are closed loop and totalitarian in my opinion.
@HostileFork Will do. I've been very busy over the past few months and really need to provide more active support.
 
10:11 PM
My 2cents about the comment syntax. IMO the ugliest aspect of the Rebol syntax is the semicolon for comments. Aesthetically speaking all other proposals are better: # // -- :: ... For me, semicolon would be useful as a variant of space, to visually separate things increasing readability; x: 1; y: 2; z: x + y; print z
And the 2nd ugliest is ^ instead \ as escape char in strings.
 
@giuliolunati I feel that x: 1 | y: 2 | z: x + y | print z is more visually pleasing (though it is more unusual, and does require an extra space on each use)
When you have syntax highlighting you can match | with blocks, and get [ x: 1 | y: 2 | z: x + y | print z ] where the bars match the block style. (I like set-word in bold, so some differentiation of type/color is needed between the two, but whatever the style it could match the brackets)
Semicolon doesn't have these advantages, and looks very similar to colon, so I am okay with leaving it alone for those who wish to use it.
 
10:34 PM
@HostileFork Hmm, yes, the similarity with colon is a disadvantage.
 

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