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1:34 AM
Someone needs to test compatibility with HM Linux
 
 
5 hours later…
6:31 AM
@HostileFork Will that penguin be replaced by a picture of Hannah? That would be a real improvement to Linux!
@giuliolunati Easy solution: do not comment your code! And reintroducing that semicolon as an ugly space for readability, we got line terminators for that.
@HostileFork I try to read all those posts by you, but I lack the proper time. Seems like I already have a negative amount of free time on average these days ;-)
 
 
1 hour later…
8:00 AM
@iArnold well, I really need to comment my code.
 
@giuliolunati I know ... :-)
 
If the choice is between ';' and ';' I will choose ';' but between ';' and '//' I will choose '//'.
About ';' as separator, obviously not really a proposal
 
@giuliolunati The choice is there now, so please do use it and see if you notice problems/bugs!
 
8:47 AM
Sure!
 
 
1 hour later…
10:17 AM
@HostileFork That's fine, I also don't care about your opinions about the Golden Truth of Ren-C, especially when that truth is different every month.
Also I'm more R3 than R2 fan, but I know you never cared much about facts.
 
@rebolek You might care someday, when the catastrophe you support collapses under its brazen incompetence. Wait and see.
 
OK, thanks for advice.
 
This is going to be a testable thing. There will be an environment, online, with demos. Red can be paired up for its solutions against mine. It's not going to come down to anything but facts.
And I look forward to demolishing it.
 
If you love demolishing instead of building, why not.
 
There's no way to help them build anything decent, they don't listen, so this is the only way.
 
10:24 AM
Ok, if you say so.
 
Believe me--if they weren't how they are, I would much prefer that we have some nice collaborative thing and conference and be building great stuff. But they don't know what great stuff even is.
Hence I have to do what I'm doing, thanks to them being idiots.
 
Certainly.
Everyone's idiot, expect you.
 
No, just them.
 
Right.
 
Well, actually a lot of people: cnbc.com/2018/10/15/…
But we are speaking specifically in the domain of study of one particular problem area.
 
10:29 AM
But that particular idea is full of idiots with just you as shining beacon of reason.
 
Anyway, the kneejerk reactionary-ism which would lead people down the road of deciding a language which has // for comments instead of remainder is dead-to-them, is exactly the sort of thing I'd expect from people who can somehow overlook every aspect of solved problem beyond that.
 
http:\/\/this.is.comment
 
No that is not a comment.
 
Nevermind this editor is stupid.
@HostileFork I don't think that language that has // as comments is dead. I just think that breaking language by crippling its lexer is not my cup of tea.
 
@rebolek There is no giant loss, it's a mountain being made out of a molehill in terms of what is being "sacrificed", while quite a lot is gained.
 
10:43 AM
@HostileFork If by "quiet a lot that is gained" you mean that molehill of "HF likes it more" then fine.
 
@rebolek We've seen in this conversation that I'm not the only one, and when people are mixing JavaScript and Rebol they will like it even more: hostilefork.com/media/shared/replpad-js
There's going to be a point where the Red echo chamber can't control its narrative.
This is going to be ideas, put to the test, with real systems.
 
Fortunately there's no Ren-C echo chamber, as it's one lone man in the desert.
 
@rebolek Hm, got Red on the web? Oh, nope...you've got a form that looks like it was written in VB 1.0 on Windows 1.0 that hooks to a crypto hardware key needed to run. Because it turned out no one actually cared about making Rebol2 GUI apps very much after all...so a new scam was needed.
But I watch the Red chat, and trust me, no one smart sticks around for long. They tinker, they leave. You get kids asking "will Red run on the new Quantum Computing API I read about in Scientific American" and answer those questions for three hours.
People who know nothing about programming are fairly good candidates to believe Red isn't terrible.
 
Fortunately there's still Ren-C chat, full of the brightest minds in the world who are constantly pushing the language design forward.
2
 
@rebolek Yes indeed! And as I said, this is a real system. It's not your word against mine or anything else. It's system vs. system, design vs. design.
The only way Red will be any good is to copy me...and we have nice dated repositories to prove if they do...in which case, I consider being copied to be my success as well. Their option if they want to take it.
 
10:55 AM
Of course, Red is not real. It's not like you can write stuff in Red. And also, it has not the latest and greatest invention - two slashes for comments!!!
 
It's open source, after all.
@rebolek Really, this indicates how little attention you pay. I'm far more up to date on Red (and its lack of meaningful accomplishment as a language) than you are on what I'm doing. I can read it just fine and there is nothing there.
 
No, I don't watch Ren-C closely, that's right. Because everytime I try it, it's just a session full of WTF moments. Like this total garbage:

>> block: [a b c]
== [a b c]

// So far, so good (see? I use // here to please your esthetic sense)

>> append block 'd
ⓘ Note: use WHY for error information

>> why
// (leads to 404)
// Nevermind, if it's locked, I have to unlock it

>> unlock block
** Script Error: unlock has no value
** Where: _
// Where _? What _? I've never used _. Ok, see help for lock.
 
11:11 AM
@rebolek It may be that source code ends up being "const" and that can be cast away if you wish (unlike locking, which is permanent, and allows things like using blocks as keys in MAP! which is very helpful). There hasn't been a permanent decision on it, but it does generally catch bugs and has been good for finding bugs in the protection mechanisms. Yet again, your kneejerk reactions are just going to be your understanding, because that's how much interest you have in learning/thinking.
There is limited usefulness outside of examples for doing append [a b c] 'd, and arguably those examples are teaching bad habits.
 
So append [a b c] 'd is bad habit. Interesting.
 
constness would be a way of having a view on data that doesn't allow mutation through that particular handle, while other views may be able to mutate it--which would be different from protected status (again, different from locking, which is a permanent path-of-no-return, used to make immutability guarantees). Not only is it good for things like blocks as map keys, but threading could take advantage of immutability.
 
I have no problem with immutable series, I am pointing out all the inconsistencies following it.
 
@rebolek Yes, generally code with data: [a b c] ... append data 'd represents something you didn't want to do. It accumulates state in the data, if it is a function, for instance.
 
If it's bad habit, why having append at all?
 
11:16 AM
@rebolek It isn't inconsistent, you just disagree with a particular thing, which is actually controllable with a setting: system/options/unlocked-source: true but you didn't ask about that.
And all for the great love of being able to type append [a b c] 'd which I argue yes, it is a bad habit to think of appending to literals, and newbies are tripped up constantly on "why is it that I'm accumulating state when I just did what looked in source like a fresh assignment".
 
I disagree with more than one particular thing.

I disagree with telling people to use **why** that goes to 404.
I disagree with the error message that says something about **_** that I haven't used.
That the language won't let me modify my block is certainly shitty behaviour, but I can live with that.
 
@rebolek _ means it's an anonymous stack layer (the topmost console, executed as a function by name). In Red:
>> a
*** Script Error: a has no value
*** Where: catch
*** Stack:
"What CATCH? I didn't call any CATCH." Same kind of nonsense reaction, that you are so happy to have.
I'd argue that a blank saying there is nowhere is a lot closer to saying you're not in any named context to report. But whatever.
 
@HostileFork Why do you think that I'm so happy? It's shitty error message too.
Also I'm interested why pointing to 404 page is great idea.
 
Expecting an unreleased private demo to have customized the BROWSE function when it really has only just done a fledgling PRINT and INPUT such that I/O may be done in a tight loop of the interpreter while offering feedback is a bit much. But as things go that could be implemented reasonably easily in a browser, WHY is one of them.
Since launching new pages at URLs is a thing browsers are known for doing.
@rebolek I don't know that I presume to say that the language has a hard rule on this. I believe it has been very useful in catching bugs in code that is missing a COPY, and I know it has caught many places where PROTECT status would not be honored. It's an open issue, but if you have tunnel vision on that I'm afraid you won't see any of the rest. There is/will-be a Red/Rebol2/R3-Alpha compatibility script: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/scripts/redbol.reb
Where as much of the compatible subset will be implemented as can be done. It won't be perfect, but approximate. And by comparison, Red will be quite incapable of doing a fraction of what Ren-C can do.
 
@HostileFork It's not unreleased private demo, I've downloaded the source from public repo and build it myself (btw, the building process is very straightforward and I haven't got any issues with it). Removing Note: use WHY for error information from the error string (at least temporarily) would be better than this reaction. But what I've expected, HF admitting an error? That would be really something.
 
11:29 AM
@rebolek Oh you meant WHY on that particular error, not an error on the in-browser demo (where WHY doesn't work at all). Well I don't control the error strings on rebol.com. It's reasonable to argue that the WHY feature should be taken out or pointed at a site that is more wiki in nature to hold the content, so it can adapt on demand.
 
You are probably right that sooner rather than later, there should be an organic editable place to put the errors, where new errors can be added.
 
That would make sense.
Anyway, the session above is something that any newcomer to Ren-C may try. Because there are no Ren-C specific docs, people may read docs for Rebol and/or Red and think that Ren-C is similar to them.
 
Well having a session that starts up skinned as redbol and is as compatible as it can be, but adds new features, should be an option for those people. But really where I want to focus is on a tutorial that gives you things to do and tells you what to type and doesn't really turn you loose to forage on the internet for what to type in.
And also, a demo that walks people familiar with historical Rebol through points in an order of understanding the differences, and why they're different.
 
12:16 PM
posted on October 18, 2018 by hostilefork

WHY is a command which looks at the last error's ID word, and looks it up on rebol.com. If it is used with an error ID that was created post-R3-Alpha, this means it will lead to a bad URL. When errors are reported, users are instructed to use WHY to ask for more information. Hence this presents a bad new user experience. Ideally the links should go to URLs which can be edited dynamically on

 
12:46 PM
posted on October 18, 2018 by hostilefork

The call stack is produced by examining the list of frames on the stack and adding an element to the block for each ACTION! invocation. However, some frames are "dummy" frames which exist solely as a way to aggregate API handle lifetimes for C code. So libRebol API calls (such as those in the console that come from main() to run lines of code) are bracketed by what appears to be a functio

 
1:17 PM
^-- so, stack report fixed. Solving WHY requires the whole setting-up-a-website question. There's a lot involved in that.
 
@HostileFork Cool.
 
Eh... a lots of nice reading here.. It is always nice to have a place with nice and kind atmosphere for procrastination:)
 
Made me think of some Shakespearian drama/comedy ;-P
 
@HostileFork maybe you should ask yourself why it is like that.
 
@Oldes Because people who have the time and intelligence to solve these problems generally went on to other things. The people who are left are either too busy to post, or people like you guys who are not here to help but rather to irritate me.
I do not delude myself into believing there was ever -- or is -- any way to do actual software engineering with the mindset and likes of the people working on Red today.
 
1:33 PM
I personally stopped visiting the forum, because it is just a wasting time. You proved that you don't care about my opinions.
 
@Oldes I was somewhat specific there with "when it comes to any opinions about changing the Golden Truths of Rebol2". e.g. if I'm talking about changing a historical behavior that you have come to like, there is no such thing as reasoning with you.
You worked on Machinarium IIRC, which I liked playing. If you had some opinion on games, I might care. But your opinion on comments or what you choose to say about the idea that I'm changing it might as well be sent to the cosmic trashbin immediately.
 
When I'm reading this conversation... I cannot help myself to imagine this room as a home of grandfather Know-All from old children tail
 
@Oldes Look, I've said I don't want to hear from you guys but you come back. It's you who are the weirdos, not me. I'm plugging away doing work and you just don't have anything better to do.
In the meantime I publish, produce, and solve lots of problems. If you say something like apdp: :append/dup/part you get a function that acts like you'd said APPEND/DUP/PART and if you say appd: :append/part/dup you get a function that acts like you'd said APPEND/PART/DUP, there's zillions of inventions and you guys have naught all to do but prattle.
 
When you are kind and silent, you may learn things here, but if you step out of the corner, you can be roasted and eaten for your supper. Actually maybe it is breakfast in your case - after all night work
 
And tell me I'm doing it wrong.
 
1:39 PM
You know it all :)
Another reason why I don't visit your forum and don't react on many of your questions is, that I don't want to demoralize you.
 
I wasn't really complaining to you on that point, more to @MarkI, with whom I've had productive conversations in the past.
 
@HostileFork first of all I would stop calling others to be idiots
 
You're fine being quiet.
 
@HostileFork I know.. because I know the tail
I just don't know, who is the mother in this room.
 
What you fail to appreciate is that rather than banning dissident voices I will engage them. It's not perhaps healthy in the long run, but it represents a different worldview. You're allowed to be as annoying as you want, but I'm also allowed to express my displeasure.
 
1:47 PM
Btw... I don't care if you start using // for comments or not. You are too far anyway. You may also start using () instead of [] as it may be nicer for people from JS or C background. But you should start using different extension than. I think that *.ren for Ren-C files is nice one.
Sorry.. kids are at home... must take care of them. Looking forward to read something nice here again in a few days.
 
@HostileFork well you worked for Microsoft, so you may have some interesting ideas about Windows, but I coulnd't care less about your ever-changing language ideas.
 
@rebolek Great. Put a pin in the "couldn't care less" bit, and then later when you come face to face with a system in which code you claim to like writing can be done tremendously more elegantly, you can revisit that.
But hopefully the Czech contingent of people-not-actually-interested-in-advancing-the-project have finished their regularly scheduled annoyance.
 
2:04 PM
Regularly scheduled, right.
 
And @MarkI, you see what you start when you do this. They're going to show up, they're going to star anything you say that opposes me, and this is just the way of it.
It's just giving them a platform for complaint, and there's no point to it.
 
@HostileFork Despite the bs and rancor, I'm glad you guys are able to exit with at least some productive steps. It sure isn't pretty to read, but I still count it as progress.
 
Oh, this is nothing new.
Used to it.
 
@HostileFork Well without this unprovoked nonsense :44301035 , I wouldn't pop up. So please, tell me more about how we schedule our annoyance session.
 
@rebolek You weren't @ pinged. I was being asked to defend a reaction to a claimed numeric anti-// movement on a comment thread.
I was saying there is a difference between talking about other preferences and being against something, and that your comment could be disregarded because your opinions were not going to be reasonable: forum.rebol.info/t/deciding-on-an-alternative-comment-syntax/…
 
2:16 PM
@HostileFork No, I wasn't pinged. So?
 
I was talking to Mark regarding an analysis of the "voting" in that thread.
Hm. Are any symbols case-insensitive? Like, do other languages have... lowercase +?
 
2:50 PM
@HostileFork I'm ... so sorry Brian. If I could stop it, I would. I intensely disagree with even implicitly being labelled a HF-hater.
@HostileFork Nope. Unicode solved that one for me. Symbols have no casing.
 
"I ran into Triumph a recently, and wanted me to tell you that he thinks you're a really excellent rapper..." / "For him to poop on." / "How does that make you feel?" => "Y'know, it doesn't necessarily hurt my feelings, because I kind of expect it." youtu.be/0QOya9-lwQk?t=203
 
3:10 PM
posted on October 18, 2018 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: This idea emerged first in Rebmu, and is rather interesting. The idea is that if a function has an argument intended to be used more than once (like a BLOCK! condition of a WHILE), and that argument starts with a WORD! or PATH! that looks up to an ACTION!..that it be turned into a specialized function instead. So imagine if WHILE w

 
3:36 PM
Whether or not HF is the only poster to the forum (I'd post more as Ren-C is an essential branch for the future of the language—and concept, I just have my reasons for being absent for the moment), it is a record of decision making that has been spotty or non-existent in Rebol development so far. It's almost jarring (if one weren't reading between the lines) that this is criticised on a regular basis.
4
 
 
4 hours later…
7:12 PM
Some ideas may be good, some not even understood
it may sound strange, people do not really like change
so when they are proposed, sure they must be opposed
the Rebol way is pure, like walking through newly discovered nature
no longer follow the threaded path, of Java Javascript and all of tath,
and just for the record, who would want to put a slash in a word?
2
@HostileFork People here often will disagree, because the Rebol way is so different from the other PL's paradigms. So when those get close and elements are adopted, even for testing them, resistance will rise.
'We' want to be convinced that what you do is the best thing and long posts how complete in their argumentation they may be, may be too long or too high level english to grasp for some of us here, so, I speak for myself here, I put my arguments down for consideration.
I hope you can view the comments not only as opposing but also as an encouragement that people are really interested in the project. For the love of Rebol.
And about the "other side". Yes they do not listen and could have been much further these days. And more than 5 years ago they did not believe me either when I said it would be a good idea to spend just a little time in explaining what and how. ("No, just go write tests" to-test-what-functionality?? Never heard of TDD?)
 
7:43 PM
@MarkI Chat is ephemeral ... useful for ranting. But HF remembers everything. So, if one has a need for non-constructive ranting, how about using the sandbox aka rooms/1 :)
@rgchris I agree that there is an exceptional electronic trail of the decision making. Pity it's in several different places, but it's there.
I"m not a language architect, and very much a user ... who doesn't have the time to think through all the implications. So, I'm happy to agree with HF most of the time.
4
 
8:22 PM
@iArnold I guess any poem that ends with "and just for the record, who would want to put a slash in a word?" is allowed to not rhyme.
Hm, I have an interesting proposal for the IS as case-insensitive comparison...which is that if the thing you're comparing is a literal, use mixed case. e.g. method is 'Script as opposed to just method is 'script. This helps draw more attention to the case-insensitivity.
If you wanted to draw even more attention you could say method is 'ScRipT, but something like a leading capital is probably enough to get the point across. :-)
 
8:40 PM
@GrahamChiu I quote and subscribe your words!
 
8:53 PM
@iArnold For the record, it's not "put a slash in a word", because that's always been disallowed. It's "have words that are all slashes".
 
9:52 PM
@HostileFork I cloned replpad-js then installed libr3.js .wasm .bytecode in replpad-js/../ren-c/make, then tried to browse index.html via localhost, but it hangs after an empty alert
 
@giuliolunati You might try starting from copying the files off my deployed site, and then substitute your files one at a time and see which one breaks it.
 
@HostileFork tried, but the local copy gives the same error before I substitute any file
The deployed site works well
 
@giuliolunati Do you get other different messages in the console log, like does it have a "defaulting to sharedarraybuffer" message that the deployed one does not?
 
I cannot find console.log in mobile browser
 
@giuliolunati That seems important to be able to have. Why don't we figure out how to get that.
It looks like if you have a USB cable you can do remote debugging with Chrome on a desktop: developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome-devtools/…
We might be able to wire it up such that console.log messages go to the loading page as HTML, by hooking console.log ... which would probably be a good idea.
While the page is biased to trying to start the load of the bytecode in parallel to the DOMContentLoaded, certainly during development we could bias it so that it lets the DOM content settle before starting that. Maybe there could be a pattern put on the URL in the address bar instructing it to do that, and override console.log writing so that it will go to the loading page.
@giuliolunati I'll look into making the console log write to the loading page, and maybe you can look at seeing if you can set up remote debugging over USB because that is probably something that will come in handy at some point (!)
 
10:20 PM
@MarkI Chinese "upper-case and lower-case numbers": quora.com/…
 
11:15 PM
@HostileFork Corrected that old_alert() bug, now alert says "ExitStatus: Program terminated with exit(255)"
 
@giuliolunati The Rebol interpreter probably has a better error than that in its hand, but the error handling mechanisms haven't been done yet. :-/ If you say that it's the same files, deployed to the same place, and you cannot read the console.log to tell if there's any difference...then we'll have to do something about that situation...since really, the only way it can communicate with you is through the console.log for now.
@giuliolunati You can try overriding console.log = function(...), console.warn = function (...), console.error = function (...) and making them go to alert() *before it is overridden as old_alert), then you will see any console log messages as alert boxes.
 
Well, tomorrow I'll try something... nite!
And thank for support
 
@giuliolunati Nite! Glad you're looking at it, would be nice to have a repeated build/deploy of it, and then seeing the features (script passed via URL, embedded filesystem) added!
 
@HostileFork sure, we'll do it! :-)
 

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