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2:08 AM
@johnk yea, just have to deal with simple stuff for now
 
 
6 hours later…
8:19 AM
@onetom are you in HK or Thailand these days?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:44 AM
@GrahamChiu Hong Kong
 
10:35 AM
@Respectech Lemme know... it was pretty early in the process... things were still getting up to speed
 
 
1 hour later…
11:45 AM
where is map! documented? rebol.com/r3/docs/datatypes/map.html looks a bit too concise
and really, blocks and pairs can't be keys in a map! ?
 
 
2 hours later…
2:09 PM
@RebolBot do load {#1#2#3#4}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
>> load "#1#2#3#4"
*** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "issue" -- "#1#2#3#4"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) #1#2#3#4
 
@RebolBot help
 
I respond to these commands
Note: [] means optional input or shows expected datatype, (|) means choice:
(do|do/2|do/red|do/boron) expression "evaluates Rebol/Rebol-like expression in a sandboxed interpreter"
(hi|hello|goodnight|goodbye|bye|[good][night|morning|afternoon|evening]) some-text "returns a greeting to the user who greeted bot"
cc id "retrieves curecode data"
delete [ loud ] "in reply to a bot message will delete if in time"
do/ideone which-lang [word! string! integer!] expression "evaluates a source expression for the specified language"
 
@RebolBot do/2 load {#1#2#3#4}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load "#1#2#3#4"
== #1#2#3#4
 
2:14 PM
@onetom rebol.net/wiki/Map As with all things, I'm not sure what version this document goes with
 
2:24 PM
Downloading Haskell platform, only a 105MB download!
 
2:38 PM
What would it take to get Rebol started in the Windows command prompt, or Console2 rather than it's own?
Does Rebol have it's own console window on Linux / OSX?
 
@kealist I assume you mean with Rebol 3?
 
@earl yes
 
@kealist In R3, no.
@kealist Ok. Do you happen to have Visual Studio installed?
 
@earl will install it now
 
@kealist Nah, don't.
I'll quickly update the console-mode binary to the most recent master. Brb.
 
2:55 PM
@earl sweet. Shame, I was going to get all microsoft-y
 
@kealist Ok, updated: rebolsource.net has a "Win32 console-mode" binary, which properly re-uses an existing Windows command prompt (and thereby also works in e.g. Console2).
 
@earl thank you for taking time to do that :)
I guess I have never understood why rebol had it's own console window in r2 or r3. Is it for the advanced features? rebol.com/r3/docs/usage/console-advanced.html
 
3:15 PM
@kealist You're welcome. I guess I'll finally submit the trivial fix so that we have console-mode binaries by default.
 
@earl Yay! Could we make this one the default build for Win32? :-/
Okay, that answers that. :-)
 
posted on August 26, 2013 by earl

A console mode Rebol binary has the following advantages: Reuses an existing command prompt Works with alternative command prompts (such as Console 2) Slightly improves the handling of redirected standard IO Until we reintegrate /View capabilities and/or a custom graphical (R2-style) console, building console mode binaries is the better default for Windows.

 
4:01 PM
@respectech Any luck finding out if you have a copy of the other camera angle for David's talk?
I want the cogInov videos to go up as well, but I don't want to be the one who does them. It seems @moliad is closer to that issue and how presentation should be handled. I can provide the bumper/trailer bit to splice in. I would like to get back programming this week.
And the next question I might ask regarding the video is, should I bother with my talk or not. For history? Basically what I said is happening now, so there is not really value to airing those issues.
The slide deck seems enough. If people want to know what I look like, I can send pictures from when I was thinner and had more hair. :-(
No one likes to hear their own voice recorded or see themselves on video, especially basement-dwelling programmers. That's why you can't edit your own talks. You'd never release them.
 
@HostileFork of course u should! it was very important, imho. just dont overdo it. bump it out quickly! still better than not releasing it
 
@onetom It was important but the audience was really just the people who were present...
 
4:16 PM
it was not streamed very well live anyway, so who was not there but stayed up late in other countries are also interested
 
I wonder did Carl send his video out to the Amiga group? He said he would tack it onto a mailing list request if anyone could do an updated Amiga build of rebol for the website
 
plus it adds to the volume of the talks happened at the conference
not talking about the historical values. we can understand later why things happened the way they happened.
 
Yeah but I kind of ripped on the state of things, it was critical. The Dr. Rebmu talk is more useful going forward
 
@HostileFork well, do the rebmu 1st, but dont leave out "yours" either
 
I have a vision of the rebmu.rebol.net site with a glaring Dr. Rebmu photo, taken against a white background, on the left side of the webpage holding up in his hand a video player that has the talk, and then have some Rebmu'd English used for the section titles and page text.
Working on slogans. I kind of like doUrebmu.
Suggestions taken.
I need to get back to them at some point about getting it on the golfscript engines page... I have a couple things I want to fix first. :-/
It would help if some people from the Rebol community tried it first for a bit, just to help vet problems. Why not go solve a few puzzles?
Rebmu makes Rebol very competitive.
 
4:34 PM
@onetom Regarding the "remove commits from a pull request" comment: you can just define a new branch at the tip of your last commits and "hard reset" your branch with DELETE-DIR to just contain the one commit (i.e., use more branches). After resetting the branch, you just push the branch to your GitHub using the "hard" option again.
For example, if the DELETY-DIR branch is named "MYBRANCH1", create a new branch "MYBRANCH2" at the tip of the new commits. Afterwards, hard reset "MYBRANCH1" to contain just the one commit containing DELETE-DIR and push "MYBRANCH1" to your GitHub with the "Force overwrite existing branch" option.
That way, you will remove the subsequent commits from your pull request.
...while your "MYBRANCH2" will still "remember" your new commits
 
i did this so we can proceed at least with the pull request:
git checkout -b delete-dir 705197054caf886c35daeec74d1833aa5a8a214b
git push -u origin delete-dir
 
@onetom Perfect.
@onetom Github's pull requests automatically track whole branches, which is a very useful feature for review & collaboration.
(So the immediate answer to your "that's great, but what if i dont want to add more commits to it?" question is: "use separate branches". But you've found that out by yourself by now :)
 
@earl (i hate git... in case i haven't mentioned it this week yet...)
 
4:51 PM
posted on August 26, 2013 by onetom

Since there was no strong opinions on this in the http://issue.cc/r3/1545 ticket I would keep it in Rebol 3 to converge towards the level of usefulness Rebol 2 provided.

 
so i did a
git checkout master
git reset --hard a99d2d6800207292e9590d8b1ea3d3c2c31bb8e2
git push --force
i hope it will still keep the relevant patch intact on the other branch...
 
@onetom Sure, sounds good.
 
@onetom It depends on how you define "this week"
I used to follow Monotone, which is what Linus Torvalds was thinking of using when BitKeeper went nuts on the Linux community for some non-obvious suicidal reason.
And from their point of view, the simple-mindedness of Git was exactly what they'd built layers on top of to avoid.
Git's failure is its simplicity, but due to its simplicity, you can really sort of do anything with it. You're not abstracted much from the mechanics.
It would be nifty, and not that difficult, to do a Rebol-based Git
 
5:09 PM
you know, i like the LEGO approach, where the final product is modular, the pieces depend on each other irregardless of the actual order (in time) u join them.
this is how darcs thinks about a source repo and i find it very natural.
git however identifies each step of the assembly process with an ugly uuid and uses it as the primary identifier for communication.
think about it:
if i made a custom left-front leg for your LEGO crocodile, doesn't it matter if i made that change on the copy of your croc with head A or head B? should it matter are you applying it on a croc with a T1 tail or a T2
 
Rightly or wrongly, it's not a decision we should change, and we can't afford to change it, given everything else that needs to be done. So while I believe in freedom of speech (as long as that speech does not support things I don't like, like /ONLY or putting Rebol in all caps...)...maybe we can focus on not talking about darcs. :-)
David opened his talk with a description of why he likes upper casing Rebol. I'm shortening it, but leaving it in. :-)
See, I'm fair.
 
well i would prefer focusing on talking about Rebol, not fucking git...
but still, it keeps on popping up as a topic...
 
Well, let us assume that the version control decision is made for now, and learn how to use it and write FAQs for common operations or describe our workflow with it
Many debates to be had already
 
@HostileFork "learn how to use it" -- i heard this so many times before... it's just a huge waste of time :( anyway...
 
5:47 PM
if i have a multi dimensional series structure and i want to index into it, like:
x: [ [#11] [#21 [#221]] ]
x/2/2/1
how can i do it programmatically given i have the index as a block for example?
this works, but feels a bit strange:
index: [2 2 1] get to-path append [x] index
 
6:00 PM
@onetom Hm. Maybe PICK should accept blocks?
Well, paths seems better. e.g. pick x to path! [2 2 1]
A block pick semantically would be more like asking to pick those elements out. e.g. pick [a b c d e] [2 4] == [b d]
 
@HostileFork u can't convert [2 2 1] into path because pathes can't start with an integer!
 
@RebolBot
to path! [2 2 1]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> to path! [2 2 1]
== 2/2/1
 
@onetom You can. :-) You just can't do it as a source literal. It's one of those "mold ambiguous" things.
 
oh, i tried it in rebol2 then and i thought im in 3... :/
maybe the prompt in rebol 3 should be >>> instead of >> ;)
it would make it look like python though...
 
6:24 PM
I'm just trying to spell things in the user list
@RebolBot hello
 
@kealist hello to you too
 
it's awesome we have the source! i've changed the prompt to "<3 " ;D
 
@onetom haha
 
@HostileFork No, it doesn't look like I do. I was using my son's laptop and he deleted the directory that I stored the videos in because they were taking too much space. But I had transferred that whole directory to your computer in Doc's room after the conference, so you should have had everything that I had. I remember copying the videos off the cameras at the end of each talk, though.
BTW, speaking of cameras - I found a Broadcom SoC specialist who I have under contract to enhance the performance of the tools provided by the Raspberry Pi foundation. He's making some pretty cool progress! It will give my cameras even more flexibility. Incidentally, I've sold about 30 cameras so far, and I haven't even started marketing them yet. :-)
 
6:44 PM
@Respectech sounds like a promising business :) that's the way to go. just don't over promise!
@DocKimbel is experimenting w moot.it, so I also gave it a try: moot.it/rebol let me know who else can i grant admin rights to
 
@onetom Customers try to corner me into over-promising all the time. It is a constant battle to keep their feet on the ground. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes not so much.
 
7:25 PM
@Respectech btw, im a bit sceptical about your "encrypted POST data" approach. have you read the [matasano.com/articles/javascript-cryptography](Javascript Cryptography Considered Harmful) article?
the other way around? Javascript Cryptography Considered Harmful -- of course...
@Respectech also, what do you think about local storage? it's not something the browser just automatically sets for you, but something which is set by the javascript (which the browser automatically runs for you; most of the time :)
 
7:47 PM
@onetom Ah, but the point of that article is that the way JavaScript implements and transmits cryptographic information is flawed. In my case, the Rebol CGI always remains hidden from the user (and is only accessible to server admins on my webserver - aka: me), plus the encryption key can be changed on a daily basis or using a rotating cryptographic algorithm. I guarantee my cryptographic algorithm is at least as secure (and probably more so) than SSL and cookies.
In fact, I challenged a black-hat hacker to crack my sites - after throwing every trick at it, he was unable to. Only a brute-force decryption attack could work, and it would only work until the encryption key changed again. The frequency of the change would easily far exceed a farm of computers brute-force decrypting the key.
@onetom I don't use JavaScript in my algorithm at all. I use JavaScript within my site, but not for any of the encryption component.
(or any of the login component)
 
8:04 PM
Does the SEND function log errors anywhere? I'm using it to send an email to myself but I'm never getting the email.
 
@DarrellBrogdon In Rebol2 (and possibly Rebol3) Use 'trace/net on' before sending to see the actual conversation between Rebol and the email server.
 
Perfect. Thanks @Respectech!
 
@DarrellBrogdon No problem.
 
It appears the value of the message argument is "none". That argument can just be a string right? send foo@example.com "Hi there" is basically what I'm doing.
 
@DarrellBrogdon That should work just fine. Maybe there is a problem above that. Can you post the output of trace/net with the passwords removed?
 
8:13 PM
Net-log: ["Opening" "tcp" "for" "esmtp"]
Net-log: [none "220"]
Net-log: "220 Darrells-MacBook-Pro.local ESMTP Postfix"
Net-log: [["EHLO" system/network/host] "250"]
Net-log: "250-Darrells-MacBook-Pro.local"
Net-log: "250-PIPELINING"
Net-log: "250-SIZE 10485760"
Net-log: "250-VRFY"
Net-log: "250-ETRN"
Net-log: "250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES"
Net-log: "250-8BITMIME"
Net-log: "250-DSN"
Net-log: "250-BINARYMIME"
Net-log: "250 CHUNKING"
Net-log: ["Supported auth methods:" []]
Net-log: ["MAIL FROM: <foo@example.com>" "250"]
 
8:29 PM
Net-log: "250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as BDDFA148231B"

The above looks like it queued the message OK. Normally, trace/net doesn't show the actual message being inserted into the SMTP port, because that could be a huge message. My guess is that something on the server end is not delivering the message, or it is getting caught by a spam filter or something on the receiving end.
 
Makes sense.
I'm looking in my spam filters now.
 
There is a problem if you are sending large messages (looks like yours might be 10MB?) with the buffering in Rebol 3's ESMTP protocol. Try sending a small message first (just a few bytes) and see if that arrives.
 
Shouldn't be more than a few Kb.
 
Also, some service providers have a limit on the incoming size of messages. 10MB would be a relatively low limit nowadays, and 20MB would be standard.
 
Right now I'm just trying to get the SEND function working so my message is little more than "Test number one".
 
8:32 PM
Net-log: "250-SIZE 10485760"

That looks like 10,485,760 bytes (~10MB) unless I'm reading the log wrong.
 
Weird. Wonder what else it could be sending?
>> message: "This is test number six"
== "This is test number six"
>> send darrell@brogdon.net message /subject "Test 6"
 
@DarrellBrogdon It would be easy to send something that big if you accidentally send the face object of something in Rebol instead of the 'text element of the face object (just as an example).
 
Wait, doesn't Net-log: "250-SIZE 10485760" mean that's the max size any message can be that the SMTP server will accept?
 
Try:

send/subject Darrel@brogdon.net message "Test 6"
@DarrellBrogdon That may be the case.
(The refinement always has to be attached to the function, and not passed as a parameter in the chain)
That can be a confusing aspect of the 'help output.
 
Ah. Yes, it is confusing. I do that all the time.
Looks like the messages are getting delayed because Gmail is refusing the connection for some reason.
 
8:41 PM
@DarrellBrogdon Not surprised.
@DarrellBrogdon That may be the case.
 
I was thinking that deferral/rejection got listed in the SMTP transaction. Its been awhile since I've done this so my memory is probably fuzzy.
 
8:56 PM
Heya @PaulTarvydas... any new questions for us? :-)
 
@DarrellBrogdon You can't use esmtp with gmail without tls
I have some scripts somewhere that implement a secure send with gmail. Rebol2, and I have written the same for Rebol3 somewhere too
 
@GrahamChiu Thanks, I didn't know that.
 
@Respectech I'm surprised the transaction got as far as that above
 
@GrahamChiu No, I was just trying to help out @DarrellBrogdon.
 
@DarrellBrogdon you are using Gmail smtp ?
 
9:03 PM
No. I just turned on Postfix on my Mac and was connecting to that. I think all the receiving MTA's are seeing me as a spammer.
 
@DarrellBrogdon Oh yeah ... I just read your log again.
Unless your address resolves to a fully qualified domain, I suspect many servers will just ignore you
ie. as part of their antispam measures they will accept the message but just dump it
 
Wonder if I set system/network/host to an FQDN if it will work?
 
try this instead .. find out who the mail server is for your recipient, and then set that recipient as your mail server. That should work
@DarrellBrogdon No, they'll do a reverse dns look up and compare
 
This is a teergrubbing mail server I wrote in Rebol 2 in 2005 compkarori.com/vanilla/display/Smtpd.r
It's a plugin for @DocKimbel's Uniserve
 
9:12 PM
@Respectech so how does the authentication happen? im really curious now, because i was thinking about this issue regarding single-page apps.
 
@RebolBot help
 
I respond to these commands
Note: [] means optional input or shows expected datatype, (|) means choice:
(do|do/2|do/red|do/boron) expression "evaluates Rebol/Rebol-like expression in a sandboxed interpreter"
(hi|hello|goodnight|goodbye|bye|[good][night|morning|afternoon|evening]) some-text "returns a greeting to the user who greeted bot"
cc id "retrieves curecode data"
delete [ loud ] "in reply to a bot message will delete if in time"
do/ideone which-lang [word! string! integer!] expression "evaluates a source expression for the specified language"
 
@RebolBot keys
 
I know the following keys:
0-based indexing "PICKZ and POKEZ functions for 0-based indexing."
About "About Rebol (and Red)"
Aggregator "Rebol SO tagged questions"
alive? "I'm a-liiiiive!!!"
AltJSON "JSON utils by rgchris"
AltWebForm "URL Encoded Forms Utils by rgchris"
AltXML "XML Utils by rgchris"
BadMoney "Currency designator for money datatype"
binaries "Experimental builds for R3"
blog "Carl and Shadwolf's blog"
bot-source "RebolBot Source"
cc-source "Sources to Curecode"
chatmod "SO Chat Modification Script"
 
@RebolBot somekittens
 
@RebolBot fiendish!
 
9:41 PM
@RebolBot Graphics Proposal
 
10:12 PM
@onetom how's the aquarium monitor project going?
 
10:29 PM
So I'm wondering with David's talk... should I break it up in two uploads? It takes a long time for him to get to the screenshots for Dannon yogurt. I could also put a timecode link to that part in the description.
 
10:39 PM
@HostileFork I vote for just one, I don't like navigating multiple videos on youtube
 
11:37 PM
@kealist Well there are other options. I could fast-track the edit to skip some of the longer backstory of how they switched from Visual Basic to Delphi to Rebol, which while interesting, goes on for a very long time and may underplay the central point that--for instance--Dannon Yogurt is packed, conveyored around, and factory picked by Rebol.
Then I could tack that bit on at the end as an appendix in the same video
Without the second camera angle, it's easier to execute...but harder to do well.
@kealist I just reloaded the page and see you're following Ladislav's lead with the user icon. :-) Good to see people embracing the motif, although if everyone starts doing it we're going to run out of letters!
 
@onetom The key can be set in many ways - either through a service like Authy or by having a key tokenizer written on the server.
The user logs in with HTTPS, and their login information is sent to the server. The server uses that login information to compare against the user table in the database, and if it is a match, it also pulls the last state, which is an encrypted Rebol object, from the database.
This state is then used by the CGI script that is called from the login script's POST method, decrypted using the token, and used by the CGI script to determine what to do next.
 
11:54 PM
@HostileFork well, from my point of view, i would prefer to have the whole talk and just skip the first part if I weren't interested in watching it (but I am).
 
Or, you could put up all the videos on the recode trello page and ask people to vote for which ones they're interested. Personally I'm less interested in success stories with closed source. But they make good stories for rebol.com front page
 
@GrahamChiu They're porting to Rebol3 and consider the open sourcing a good move. They're partnering with Saphirion to sponsor development with them, because they need the Gui... and I think that if we continue to solidify the narrative with Saphirion this can be all good.
 
@HostileFork Perhaps they could also use Marco's port of VID to Rebol 3 ?
That would reduce the rewrite considerably if it works as advertised.
 
Their existing work is based on RebGui, they rejected VID for various reasons explained in the talk. So I think they want to carry forward their existing work.
 

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