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12:00 AM
However, I wouldn't do any commercial work on Rebol 3 until the critical tcp bugs are fixed.
@HostileFork Marco says RebGUI will also run with his script.
 
Well, I'd like to see David come join the chat, I'll outreach to him about that when I publish the talk.
 
Marco "Why have I done it? Because:
This script creates gobs from view1 faces. This means that with it you can use
VID but also RebGUI, Glass, VIDEK.
VID1 is NOT a very good gui system but it was the default one for R2 and with this script
you can simplify adaptation of old scripts to R3.
VID1 is NOT a very good gui system but it IS a good starting point and I am tring to be
compatible to VID3 so you can choose which one to use."
@HostileFork were those the guys that said they never participated in the community ?
 
Yes, but also said they should do more. Seemed receptive to the StackOverflow "movement".
 
@Respectech I'm using this vonets.com/ProductViews.asp?D_ID=14 to give me wifi for my RPi. I had a cable but my non-pathetic dog (tm) chewed through it one day when we locked him in :(
Maybe it might work for your IP cameras.
 
@GrahamChiu Thanks, Graham! I'll take a look at that.
 
12:15 AM
@Respectech so, my RPi running XBMC can stream movies, so the bandwidth must be passable and I've used it for 3com VOIP phones.
 
Why don't you plug a usb wifi dongle directly into the pi? (list of compatible devices)
 
My camera specification and pricing page is now available at respectech.com/smoothcam.html
 
Which board is attached to the back of the camera?
 
@GrahamChiu That is a PoE adapter so you only have to run one cable to the camera. In addition, a PoE managed switch can also automatically reboot the camera if it stops responding for any reason. It is an optional accessory.
 
12:17 AM
@johnk I just had the VAP11G available in my toolkit
 
@johnk I have an Encore mini-USB adapter that I've been testing with.
 
@GrahamChiu Sounds like a handy toolkit
 
@GrahamChiu still don't have any example locked down on the tcp bug, right?
Maybe I should spend some time trying to do something crazy with it. I usually can get something to go wrong
 
@kealist I have an app that causes it .. but where exactly in that code the issue is is the problem.
 
@GrahamChiu didn't someone else have a script that caused it? or anything I could look at?
 
12:20 AM
@kealist I can send you my script. @earl also had some code but it contained the GUI so we wanted something GUI-less
 
@GrahamChiu ok
 
we believe it's memory corruption somewhere.
When I changed one of my functions to a closure, it took a lot longer before it crashed after that.
 
@GrahamChiu I think my trademark on pathetic dog applies even if you put a "non" in front of it
 
@HostileFork I acked your trademark
 
Today pathetic dog tried to pick a fight at the park. She's really not making friends.
 
12:24 AM
@HostileFork Was it with a bully dog ?
 
@GrahamChiu need email?
 
son_of_efishant@gmail.com ?
 
No, similarly sized small dog that did nothing to warrant the lunge and growl at the face after the initial sniff. Although I don't know, maybe if you speak dog smell there is code we don't know about.
 
@HostileFork pheremones
 
hahahah, yes, likely, replace son_of_efishant with my username and you've got it
 
12:26 AM
@kealist ok, got it.
@HostileFork My friendly dog wanted to approach neighbour's cat of similar size today to make friends. The thing went into attack mode! We backed off ..
 
@GrahamChiu, this contains GUI code as well...
 
@kealist which is never used.
 
hmmm, it complained that layout wasn't defined and a gui popped up
 
@kealist because you have not created the config yet
 
@GrahamChiu A little slow, is it the usr fkey?
 
12:40 AM
@kealist the config needs both the fkey, and the whole of the cookie
rebolbot seems to get away with a restricted version of the cookie, but this thing needs more
@kealist Yes, it's your fkey that you can grab by inspecting the content using sniffer software
Eg. Firefox live headers
 
ok, Thank you. I was trying to just put the content of the cookie
 
1:03 AM
@GrahamChiu got distracted by laundry and wedding stuff
I'm not actually familiar with what fkey means. I copied the full cookie from the live headers
 
@kealist as long as you don't wear the dirty laundry to the wedding
@kealist fkey is posted by browser client .. it's in the body content
so not the headers
and is unique to each SO user
but also changes depending on what rooms you join
 
Need to use a sniffer for that?
nm, i misread that
 
@kealist well, I can see it using live headers
I thnk
Yes, it appears in live http headers as body
 
I found it, but I had typed something random and the script is on its way to nowhere probably
@GrahamChiu and the bug is a complete crash?
 
@kealist Hmm. The keys may not be essential to read, but are needed to post
@kealist What OS?
 
1:11 AM
@GrahamChiu Windows
 
@kealist Ok, you'll get a dialog box up with a #9910 error
might take 40 mins though ...
 
@GrahamChiu Right, I remember reading that
@GrahamChiu I'll let it churn for a while and see if it happens. Then I'll dig a little more into networking
 
1:28 AM
Need to chat a bit to give it something to download though!
 
blah blah blah blah
:)
 
Andreas thinks it's related to opening and closing a lot of files since the stress test that carl wrote didn't reveal anything
 
So you're completely on hold w/ Rebol programming until this gets sorted?
 
so, what's a kea ?
here it's a NZ bird ..
 
it's like a realist but with a k ?
it's some word I made up as a username in middle school, it's unique enough, but meaningless
 
1:30 AM
I keep thinking bird
so you have a list of NZ birds :)
 
oh yea!
 
@GrahamChiu ok, so you are saying I should open and close a file a million times; I'm on it!
 
@kealist No, the script does that
these large parrots can damage your car!
 
@GrahamChiu sweet, looks appropriate. I should change my avatar again...
 
1:32 AM
and strip the bark of trees
and rip bugs out of tcp stacks
 
wait, there is a timer:// protocol?
 
yes, Andreas wrote it
Does my script use it??
Or have I commented it out?
 
it's after a halt statement
 
so not used
 
I will say the first time the script is configured w/ the gui, it errors out
 
1:35 AM
@kealist because it doesn't create the config?
Or can't find the config after it creates it?
 
If I do the script a second time, it works, but the 1st time when I set the config, it says mini-http/cookies ... can't run on value none or something like that (my memory isn't clear, I'll tell you in a min
 
@kealist well, I just ripped this out of the main script
This kea will apparently even attack horses!
 
@GrahamChiu I will find all the bugs even the ones that are irrelevant or that you aren't looking for! ;)
I picked up that from my dad
 
@kealist but some bugs may not be relevant so that's not efishant
 
@GrahamChiu true, but having bugs isn't efishant either!
Running some kind of stressful tests, REBOL locked up after 329000 file open/close
 
1:53 AM
@kealist lock up or produced an error?
 
lock up
 
hmm
@rebolbot do print 32 * 1024
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print 32 * 1024
32768
 
20mB memory, 0 CPU
 
another order of magnitude
@kealist ewww... memory leak then
 
1:56 AM
Well, if I CTRL-C it runs through a few more....
 
seems promising ...
 
We do need some valgrind stress tests before accepting commits. Note that I can't even get agreement on this tab/space thing for the pre-commit check. :-/ I think we should start with that.
@GrahamChiu - what's the executive summary, is there a repro for this TCP problem or not? Does it happen in the Saphirion build too?
 
going out .. back later
 
It started working again, now up to 600,000
I don't know what the effect of CTRL-C on Rebol in Windows is sometimes
 
2:09 AM
Sorry for the long post:
Dr. Memory version 1.5.1 build 6 built on Feb 25 2013 00:45:31
Application cmdline: ""C:\Program Files (x86)\Dr. Memory\bin\r3-g4d9840f-console.exe""
Recorded 75 suppression(s) from default C:\Program Files (x86)\Dr. Memory\bin\suppress-default.txt

WARNING: application is missing line number information.

Error #1: UNINITIALIZED READ: reading register eax
# 0 msvcrt.dll!longjmp
# 1 r3.exe!RL_Init +0x45e2 (0x0040635f <r3.exe+0x635f>)
# 2 r3.exe!RL_Init +0x4b7e (0x004068fb <r3.exe+0x68fb>)
Doubt that is really useful, but the ran the new console version w/ Dr Memory and opened, wrote and closed a file
@HostileFork tabs!
But it looks like there is some kind of leaking happening: 5 unique, 5 total, 1340 byte(s) of leak(s)
 
2:35 AM
@GrahamChiu no errors yet...
 
@kealist I don't care, but I'd like Rebol and Red to agree.
And I'd like a pre-commit script to check it.
 
So you need DocKimbel and Kaj to make a decision and Carl / Earl / Cyphre / Ladislav / Robert / et all
I just mean, what actually needs to happen to get people to agree?
I guess earl is andreas, not earl
I know I'm not relevant, but SO chat doesn't seem to be getting that job done
I know Kaj doesn't use Trello
 
3:01 AM
@HostileFork happens in the community builds and saphir
 
@kealist Think he answers to either...
@kealist Among things Kaj really likes, is being an outsider. Among things Kaj doesn't like, is me. :-) In either case, I think we're going to have to get his vote by proxy of some sort, because no... I just don't see him signing up for Trello. (Although he did make an SO account, but I'm sure he hates it)
Anyway, the tabs is really is a case where I just want a decision, so we can enforce it and not discuss it any more. I don't care. Either works.
@GrahamChiu I guess if it's reproducible I can look into it also, but it seemed to catch Carl's attention, and @earl seems on the case too.
 
@GrahamChiu I'm stuck on the same 6 messages
 
@kealist not downloading new messages?
 
@GrahamChiu correct
 
@kealist feel free to debug
@HostileFork @earl is waiting for some shorter code from @rebolek but he seems to have gone awol
@kealist do you have some code that shows a memory leak?
 
3:17 AM
@GrahamChiu No, I think Dr. Memory finds a memory link in RL_INIT but I didn't see it compound yet
running a big stress test with it now
 
I'm getting ** User Error: Cannot open a dir port in direct mode when using write/binary ftp://user:pass@example.com/ file.txt. I did a search for that error but its not altogether clear what the solution is. Anybody have any suggestions?
 
Is it possible to do an equivalent to SET-ENV in 2.7.6? Using CALL or some such?
@DarrellBrogdon Looks like you're trying to write to a directory?
 
3:33 AM
yeah
 
@rgchris sdk allows this
 
@GrahamChiu Core 2.7.6
 
@rgchris core .. no
 
@DarrellBrogdon I'm not sure that's going to work—needs to be write/binary ftp://.../file.txt #{SOMEBINARY}
@GrahamChiu You sure? How does the SDK do it?
 
3:36 AM
Ah. Makes sense. Thanks @rgchris
 
kernel32: make object! [
lib:  load/library %msvcrt.dll

get-env: make routine! [
	varname [string!]
	return: [string!]
] lib "getenv"

put-env: make routine! [
	env-string [string!]
	return:    [integer!]
] lib "_putenv"

remove-env-var: func [name [string!]] [put-env join name "="]

env-var-exists?: func [name [string!]] [
	either "^@" = get-env name [false][true]
]

tz-set: make routine! [
	return:    [integer!]
] lib "_tzset"

free_lib: does [ free lib ]

]
 
@kealist Sadly (or thankfully) not using Windows...
2
 
@rgchris I should have known....
I'm the only one who uses Windows here!
 
@kealist Looks like @GrahamChiu does too :)
 
Anyway from my recollection, put-env for linux is in the sdk .. don't know if it is present elsewhere
 
3:50 AM
@GrahamChiu Sadly not.
 
@kealist has my script crashed yet? Or is still working?
 
@awexfwex Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 66 so chat away!
 
Gotta be a randomly generated ID!
 
4:06 AM
@WayneTsui we're still working on these bugs you've encountered
No progress yet
 
4:29 AM
@GrahamChiu didn't crash, i restarted it to see if it would pick up more messages
 
@kealist Perhaps this other bug stopped it writing files
 
@GrahamChiu at 4,000,000 file open/close w/o dr memory complaining I think
Didn't watch the whole time, so maybe the report will have something when I quit it
 
@kealist no appends?
 
@GrahamChiu doesn't seem to make a difference so far
 
0
A: How do you use the output from `info?` in a conditional?

Darrell Brogdonif file-info/type = 'directory [ ... ] (Never underestimate your ability to realize the answer to your own question within 30 seconds of asking it.)

0
Q: How do you use the output from `info?` in a conditional?

Darrell BrogdonGiven the following code: file-info: info? %my_file.txt How do you compare file-info/type in a conditional like: if file-info/type = "directory" [ ... ]

 
4:47 AM
@GrahamChiu I mean between append and write
 
5:04 AM
1
A: How do you use the output from `info?` in a conditional?

kealistYou may want to try: >> dir? %my_file.txt == false I'm not sure what you are trying to do, but it seems a little overcomplicated.

0
A: How do you use the output from `info?` in a conditional?

Graham ChiuYou can do this all in one line if 'file = get in file-info: info? %my-file 'type [ ... is file ... ]

 
 
7 hours later…
12:09 PM
I question dir? on its abbreviatedness (why not directory?) but also, how useful is it to have something that doesn't actually do a check to see if something is a directory?
@RebolBot
help dir?
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> help dir?
USAGE:
    DIR? target

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns TRUE if the file or url ends with a slash (or backslash).
    DIR? is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    target (file! url!)
 
It's needlessly misleading. What's wrong with explicitly writing found? find "/\" last target if that is really what you wanted?
I'd say it should be called directory? and actually do the filesystem or network request to answer the question, regardless of slashes
 
12:52 PM
To Do on Rebol3 Community Development
We know that Rebol needs go-to answers for basic functionality that is not desired to ship "in the box". It seems that, for instance, due to Rebol's no great love for XML or its future... then an ...
To do: XML, JSON => altxml, Graph Library (Mathematical), Matrix Library
☑ 0/3
 
hmm, trello output, nice ....
 
@pekr First defending me, and then complimenting StackOverflow? Who are you and what have you done with pekr!
 
I am not defending anything, as I still find those 20 points for newcomers to join, as a nonsense. I am also so-so with the bot - it creates too much of a noise here. I am not sure, it is good it serves as online console here ...
maybe good for education, but few such posts, and discussion is ruined ...
 
Well like I said, I want us to aim for evolving rebol.net to be a replacement for this room, it's just a way to get people to embrace some of the "new stuff" during a period where it simply doesn't make sense to spread too thin developing infrastructure (version control, chat) when we have a lot of core work to do
Ultimately you just can't leave control of something important to an organization whose interests are possibly at odds with your own. Ultimately this comes down to empowering individuals. But there's a historic push/pull of power balance between centralization and decentralization. It moves in waves.
Right now, StackOverflow generally deserves benefit of the doubt, but we are "in their house" so to speak, and over the long term that won't fly, I agree. I just think now it's the right place to be to talk to the programming community and answer their questions.
What I'm not liking so much, at the moment, is how their focus on expanding the general StackExchange network has slowed the rate of new features in general on the site. And Joel is distracted with Trello, but y'know, they seem to have more of a plan to make cool stuff than the average folks. It's like I say: "I don't trust Google that much, but I'll trust a bunch of engineers and geeks with power more than the US Government any day."
 
There are more sophisticated social platforms. Doc is considering Moot for red. I found Disqus, and also LiveFyre ...
This channel is good to catch some occassional newcomers, or simply ppl which accidentally join-in here ... so good to be here, unless something better appears ...
 
1:04 PM
Well if you're going to be talking anyway, might as well catch some new people and get Google indexed
@pekr speaking of just talking, I am getting more and more nuts about fixing color in photos people send me. What is seen cannot be unseen. I wasn't sensitive to it before, but now it drives me crazy and I have to fix it
It's another one of those things where it may arguably better to not be able to tell, because once you can tell, you go around wanting to fix the world of mistakes. And your tastes in "hi-fi" equipment and gear just goes further to where you want the control and fidelity.
 
Incorrect white balance is annoying
 
The internet is full of it, and otherwise interesting photos which could use help.
So I'm fixing all the photos people send me now. I kind of can't help it. It's started jumping out at me, I can't not see it.
If they would just take their pictures properly in the first place, or color balance them themselves, then it would be that much more time I could spend on Rebol. :-)
 
Just give them picasa and tell them how to adjust color temperature
Or gimp which is awful to learn
 
The name is a giveaway that software is a joke. It's punishment to use it. And it brought us the equally aptly named Gimp Toolkit which is only now getting the axe by Ubuntu.
I have a drawing tool I was writing in C++11 which can do some very fancy handling of "projectional editing" and I was a bit puzzled on how to have people writing extensions, as I don't like ECMAScript, but when I go back to it (which I will get it going again, soon) I will look at what it would take to have that done in Red
 
1:28 PM
Geomol wrote a Dpaint esque replacement for rebol. Not for photo editing but good
 
I used to use Dpaint (PC version). Quite good for its time.
 
I would say that just as we see people talking about the loss of "the fun" w.r.t. conventional programming vs. what Rebol and Red offers, Photoshop/Illustrator and Corel Painter aren't a whole lot of fun.
They seem like work
@kealist Well that makes Rebmu seem downright readable. :-)
Crashed quickly:
** Script Error: Expected one of: pair! - not: none!
** Where: canvas-over
** Near: change back back tail canvas/effect/draw
But I drew a few shapes
 
I'm not sure which version it should use; my memory is fuzzy about the agg alphas back then
favorite tool was always the snowflake
it isn't crashing for me
He stopped because of some limitation
 
1:46 PM
Well this kind of stuff is cool and nostalgic, and I know there are people who are still holding on to this idea of "what Rebol is about", but we simply have to not use it as a marketing direction in public. It makes a bad impression, I'm afraid. We're going to have to just let go of the idea that a typical modern programmer under the age of 30 is going to be impressed by any GUI results of Rebol in the next 3-5 years.
There are much, much, stronger and compelling points
Having the GUI? Okay, good. Using it to sell newcomers? They won't be interested until it evolves more than I can reasonably see the evolution happening soon.
 
well, I sold one user to R2 back then by just launching R2 Desktop, showing 2-3 demos, and the size of scripts/R2 itself! Just go and look into source code of demos, it is amazing, ditto Carl's R3 GUI demo ...
I think, that you confuse two things - the gui dialect, and low level engine. And I just say - give ppl VID like web development, and they might kiss your hands. So I think that Doc might go the right direction - using a VID like dialect upon target platforms ...
 
@pekr Maybe, but it's a lot of work to meet user expectations, and companies using cross-platform solutions are finding that "going native" and really fitting the idioms and motifs in a pixel-perfect way on the platforms they run on is how to build loyalty. The lowest-common-denominator that is the web is very tough to program for. Either way it's just a hard market to please, and I think there is "lower hanging fruit" than chasing that target.
 
TGD
@RebolBot
pt: make binary! 100
insert/dup pt #{00} 100
random/seed now
loop 10 [change at pt random 100 random 255]
probe head pt ; example binary
foo: []
delta-time [while [not tail? pt] [
all [not zero? first pt insert tail foo reduce [index? pt first pt]]
pt: next pt
]
probe foo]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> pt: make binary! 100 insert/dup pt #{00} 100 random/seed now loop 10 [change at pt random 100 random 255] probe head pt
#{
0000000000000000000000000000000000002F00EF00000000000000000040B6
00008F0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000000000EB0000007700000A0000000000000000000000000000000000
000000D0
}
== #{
0000000000000000000000000000000000002F00EF00000000000000000040B6
00008F0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 
So we are back to tabs/spaces with no way to move forward until some magic agreement happens?
 
1:57 PM
@kealist @DocKimbel - Red has no enforcement now, you have an opinion on this? I'll say again that I don't care that much, slight bias toward spaces, heavy bias toward consensus.
Carl has spoken out for the old school love of tabs. I used to believe it, I now say text sucks anyway so might as well have a "what you see is what you get" situation with no control characters
What good does one empty gesture of "intent" do, when it compromises so many other things. If tabs were truly useful, then you'd have a tab in and a tab out control character, not have to have four tabs on a line that something four levels nested represented. It's one of those closing-the-barn-door-after-the-horse-has-left situations
@TGD Is this a question? :-)
 
@HostileFork :) Sorry for the trolling
I would gladly write a pre-commit enforcement script, but I'm not really sure what that looks like
"here Doc, use this"
@RebolBot show me links by @kealist
 
@kealist Interesting!
 
@kealist No, it's good to push and be (as they say) "provocative". It's a good test of how decisions are made to attack simple ones first, because we've got bigger fish to fry, and if this kind of thing gets held up in gridlock then that's an issue.
@kealist Well here's make-commit.r as a starter, but like I said, gridlock
 
@DocKimbel the hook site? Just did a quick google search
 
2:05 PM
Tabs suck, case closed!
I think there are more important things, than to standardise upon tabs usage :-)
 
@kealist Pre-commit hooks for enforcing syntactic rules are an interesting idea.
 
@pekr Yes, but it's frustrating because we want checkins to reflect the code changes made, and not have people stomping over each other on spacing and tabs and polluting the discussion... or correcting pull requests to their idea of how that file should be to be consistent. It's just noise.
And I chose it as a "baby step" to getting in a pre commit hook so anything that can be automatically checked and rejected would be, for any check we could automate
This "baby step" has proven to be an unruly infant, as no decision has been made
And if you're wondering why I edit videos and do general Rebol/Red shared agenda evangelism while not doing much coding, you need look no further...
 
I will not use any hidden characters in my source code, no matter what rules are agreed upon. I am stubborn on that. Tabs in source code are the most stupid idea ever, period ...
 
@DocKimbel Glad it could be useful. Can you add a pre-commit script re: spaces/tabs?
 
@pekr They are rather fundamental to Whitespace however, whose programs can be embedded in any language that ignores whitespace. :-)
So anyone arguing for mixed uses of spaces and tabs is suspect as a hacker. :-)
@DocKimbel... so, Carl and @onetom are the big holdouts keeping tabs in the running, AFAIK.
I think everyone else is either pro-spaces or does not care.
 
2:21 PM
@HostileFork I've always used tabs and see no good reason to change it.
@kealist Will hardly find the time for doing that myself.
 
@DocKimbel Well if it's your opinion, and Carl's, I think we just need to bury the hatchet and do tabs
Too many other fights to fight. It's a reasonable choice with pros and cons. Can we just decide it and start these pre-commit scripts? It's a first check: no indenting with spaces. Saves going back and forth.
 
@HostileFork I don't want to impose it to anyone, Red like Rebol are free-form, so people can use whatever they like. I just want it to enforce it for Red codebase as far as possible. Modern code editor are making it transparent anyway.
 
@DocKimbel It's not transparent if the commits are mixed or if the editors fight back and forth...
I'm talking about github red/red and rebol/rebol, not user scripts
Outside of the "blessed" ones; e.g. the language doesn't care, just as with file extension, but there's a stake in the ground now saying ".reb"
 
@HostileFork Sure, we don't want to make the commits a mess because of that.
 
I propose we close this. You like tabs. Carl likes tabs. @Ladislav likes tabs. Some people don't, I used to be pro-tab but now probably advise against it, but fighting is the worst.
Those who don't like tabs: e.g. @pekr, let this one go and we'll owe you next time.
 
2:31 PM
@HostileFork so there is a pre-commit script in rebol, now we need one for Red
 
@kealist Well, we haven't formally "hooked it in" and I just was doing exploratory scanning to find what files weren't using tabs. It was to start the conversation. But it's delayed. My three-piece changeset to build under C++ has also been delayed (unnecessarily, I feel). The third changeset is going to be the controversial one
The C++ executable is smaller, BTW
As @DocKimbel knows, the more info the compiler has, the better it can do
 
@HostileFork well, if i can do something, let me know. I probably need a lot of instruction, so may not be the right person
 
@kealist Well the pull request for the pre commit script is there, I think we just have to stop sitting on our hands and make it happen and integrate. I'm not a Git guru by any means, so I don't know quite how and where to insinuate it... I was just running it manually. I thought it was a good "first step" to enforcing the Rebol codebase rules. There are others about those function headers with the asterisks and documentation. Notice Carl's trick
Let's show it working for Rebol first, and then @DocKimbel can decide if it adds value for Red. That is, I think, the general pattern of how to address such things nowadays--coding or community/website-wise. Rebol is the guinea pig. :-)
 
3:30 PM
my argument for tabs is also the fact that soon we gonna see support in editors for elastice tab stops , which is really powerful and allows columnar data entered without constant manual space adjustment and works with both monospaced and proportional fonts.
it would be a pity to making it hard now to transition later...
i cant belive linking doesnt work after editing: elastic tab stops
@Respectech how do you pass session info from page to page? are u doing a post request even where u normally would do a get?
 
3:47 PM
where are the rebol tests? i remember someone said there are a couple different types of them. 1 i know about is github.com/rebolsource/rebol-test (which i think should just be part of the rebol organization at least if not part of the rebol repo itself)
 
4:15 PM
@onetom It does—links don't appear if you have a line break though.
 
@onetom Are you having any problem with the Rebol community (aka Rebolsource) Git?
 
@onetom Yes. Every page sends a POST request with an encrypted Rebol object. The performance is amazingly good.
 
4:56 PM
@Respectech it just breaks the behaviour of the back button (which we saw in curecode), isn't it?
 
5:13 PM
@Ladislav it would be just more natural to find it below /rebol
 
@onetom That would defeat the purpose of community Rebol, though.
 
@Ladislav well, im not sure what does that even mean... the github orgname (source) is not helping either. since rebol is open source, it's a community project anyway... anyone can fork it...
 
The community Rebol (A.K.A. Rebolsource GitHub) was announced (you seem to have missed the announcements) to be the place where the community accepts consensual pull requests to eventually help Carl indicating which changes are backed by some consensus in the community.
Of course, we can accept pull requests to the community GitHub exactly because it isn't the rebol/rebol github. Otherwise we could not do it at all.
 
that was before the conference. afterwards we agreed that a few of us have the power to prepare patches for carl and even accept pull requests. BUT
1, there is no public - consensual - document of the workflow
2, none of /rebol or /rebolsource has a public list of members
 
Well, as far as I am concerned, I do not know the results of conference, while the above announcement was published.
 
5:21 PM
one of those were you for example. i remember Carl said he trusts you in that regard. (that's the part of the conversation i remember at least :)
@Ladislav do u have write permissions to the rebol/rebol repo? or any other rights in the /rebol github org?
 
Well, we thought that it may be of advantage to have a "community github" separate from "github sanctioned by Carl".
As for the other rights: I do have rights to the community github, to the saphirion github and to my personal github, that is all
 
@Ladislav okay, good to know. in which case can you open up the member list on the rebolsource org, please? so we can see who are in power. i would like to see something similar to: github.com/ruby?tab=members
 
@onetom That seems to be a task for @earl
 
originally i was thinking it would make sense to rename rebolsource/r3 to rebolsource/rebol and my thoughts branched off from there and i was not sure what is the difference really...
@moliad is everything okay with Ron? he kinda ignored our (adrian & my) emails. do u have his slides? i got the audio of his talk but it would be better together with some slides...
 
5:37 PM
hi, yeah, ron is very busy and doesn't always answer email. I don't have his slides. honestly... right now, I'm soooo busy, I don't have the time to track this down for you ... maybe the next time I see him I can ask about it.
just passing by since its been almost a month already... I've been on vacation and have a LOT of work pilled up...
 
@moliad have you hired anyone? i still haven't committed myself to any company ;)
@moliad while im aiming for getting a visa in HK, i dont mind remote work either in the meantime and eventually - if i get some help w accommodation - i wouldnt mind flying back to montreal either...
 
@onetom You could build your own back button if you wanted... But there are a lot of sites out there that the back button doesn't work on already.
 
@onetom hehe not yet... I've got to organize a lot of the projects right now... almost done with my source manager and now am doing internal repository management. The open source part of my R2 work will end up on GitHub within a week.
well, my internet is almost down. service company is doing updates on the fiber wires on my street... I might be out for 2-3 days during the day.
 
@Respectech well, it's not a good idea to raise the number of those sites and as @earl could testify it makes him really annoyed that the back button doesnt work in curecode... but okay, now it's clear that are you trading independence from cookies for annoyance or custom back button implementation.
@moliad and u dont have mobile internet?! :)
@moliad im struggling w my connection too for 2 days now. switching back and forth between adsl and lte..
 
only got 1GB/month on my phone... so I use it sparingly
 
5:48 PM
@moliad would it be too much to ask u for grabbing my cloths which i forgot in the labelle hotel and mail it via some slow and cheap way?
 
@onetom I doubt they still have it... did you contact them via mail?
 
@moliad i have 6GB/month and i watch TED talks, update git repos, etc but never really exhausted it
@moliad they have. but it would cost almost $200 to send it via fedex
which is the cheapest option they could offer
@moliad $160 to be more exact
 
what did you forget? 50kg of t-shirts?
 
@moliad :D maybe 2-3kg... we washed our stuff w @rgchris, he hung it and i forgot to collect in the morning rush...
 
where do you want it shipped?
 
5:53 PM
hong kong; i can mail u the exact address
 
ah, that's probably why it costs a lot. the moment it touches air, prices go up sharply AFAIK.
 
@HostileFork so maybe @earl can accept the pull request?
 
@moliad if u dont have any idea how to make it cheaper (i wouldnt mind waiting for it for a month or 2) then dont bother.
 
I really don't ... I don't ship stuff often.
 
they said i should register on fedex but fedex want me to fax shit to them...
@moliad if u could just grab my stuff and deposit it for a few month, that would be great. i might go back within half a year... if not u can throw it away. can we do that?
 
6:00 PM
I guess I can find a bit of space at the office for it yeah.
 
@moliad that would be awesome
 
 
1 hour later…
7:23 PM
@moliad speaking of shipping, don't forget to send me a paypal invoice for the memex ship. Also: I am taking care of David den Haring's talk, and I've already done Carl's plus Nenad's first. I was thinking the cogInov talks and Ron's talk would be up to you as you're closer to those issues... but either way, we should not be sharing YouTube links but rather recode.rebol.net/2013/montreal/videos/what-is-red links (with embedded youtube is a stopgap measure, that's fine)...
 
@onetom Actually, the back button generally does work with my method. There are cases where it doesn't, and that generally could be fixed by adding the case to my script. Believe me, the benefits far outweigh the shortcomings of the cookie method.
 
My redundant RAID external drive's name "Memex", incidentally, comes from "Memory Extender" in Vannevar Bush's As We May Think. I have some odd drive names. My first very large external I named "Tardis". :-)
(Other drives: "Mainline" with a small bootable FAT partition on it called "Vestige". Music collection resides on "Bauhaus". "Bootstore" is a Firewire-powered RAID0 2TB. Computers: "Wanderlust" the laptop, "Longview" the desktop/server. "Vedette" the Galaxy Nexus.)
 
7:53 PM
@HostileFork It makes my head hurt trying to come up with names for things like computers, drives, etc. Glad to hear you've got a good system. :-)
 
@Respectech Trent Reznor, the musician, had a funny interview moment where he talked about them getting so frustrated what to call the drives they kept filling with recordings that they'd just give them randomly obscene names. :-)
Hm, just went and looked and Nikon just formats my cards as "Nikon D80". I can do better than that. "Ocular" is a good start, I'll think about it.
 
@Respectech okay... any open source example out there?
 
8:11 PM
@onetom No, I haven't published it as open source. I was thinking about rewriting my framework to make some more enhancements, and that would be good to release as open source. Almost all my sites use MySQL and CGI scripting with Rebol as the backend, so that would be the minimum requirement to get it working. Right now, all my sites are running on Rebol 2 because there is no MySQL-protocol.r for Rebol 3 yet.
 
@HostileFork since you are into videos so much, what's your opinion about vimeo? they seem to be more caring about their customers and about the license of the content, etc
@Respectech back then i wrote a command line interface for sqlite/mysql. that could be a fall back solution, BUT since rebol 3 doesn't even have call/output support, it's out of question... :/
 
@onetom I would be happy to port existing tools and write new tools for Rebol 3 as a full-time job, but the bill collectors wouldn't be happy I was no longer paying them, and my family would not be happy that there was no food on the table, no electricity, and no house to live in...
 
@Respectech you mentioned that recently already, but how is this relevant? i was not asking you to do anything :)
 
@onetom I know you weren't. I just wish I had more hours in my day. I'm anxious to move to Rebol 3, but I find I just can't do it yet. I'm writing a brand new deadline-sensitive app in Rebol 2 as we speak -- I wish I could be writing it in Rebol 3.
 
@Respectech or Red, i guess... ;D
since you are so good at getting rebol projects, u should scale out a bit... ;) there are some helping hands here...
@HostileFork also their HTML5 support is a lot better than utube's
 
8:29 PM
@onetom I don't have a strong opinion, I will give the MP4s but I'm not going to preserve the source projects, I already am filling too many drives with things. Whoever wants to upload them wherever, that seems fine. More places the better. Discovery. But we need to move on from Recode Montreal to the next Recodes and set precedent.
 
and they officially support downloading too
 
I ask that the A/V meet this standard, at minimum, in the future and will advise on how that can be done more easily. While I had a pretty good idea of what to do, have to say that I learned from the exercise too... I'll make a checklist
 
how much is the source data and the final mp4s, btw? and how much would it take to upload it to s3 for example?
 
@onetom I tend to post opportunities here and on AltME when I get jobs that I need help with. :-)
 
Turnover time to YouTube for a 40 minute 720p video is a bit over an hour, and that's just the upload. :-/
I'm using Screenflow for convenience because it does some things easily, others poorly. If I were seeking "pro" results I would use Final Cut and just grit my teeth and deal because it is a more fine-grained tool... but there's enough of a limit to what I can do with the source material that if I can save myself time I do. The files are like 50GB, there are explainable reasons for this, but as far as I'm concerned we sign off on the videos and I wipe the project file.
 
8:37 PM
@Respectech i should have followed altme more closely in the past years... :/ but i have to admit i was "unfaithful" to rebol more often than not :)
 
@onetom I wouldn't question one's faith based on use or lack of use of AltMe...!
 
@HostileFork no doubt about that :)
 
Can't the back button be trapped by Javascript so that the Post error goes away?
@Respectech there is an ODBC implementation for Rebol 3, and I wrote a JDBC bridge ... which means java needs to be installed
@kealist did my script ever crash in the end??
 
8:54 PM
@GrahamChiu I'm impressed that you've implemented ODBC in Rebol 3. However, my past dealings with ODBC always left me feeling like it was too complicated, more than interfacing with MySQL directly, for instance.
 
@Respectech Not me .. someone else
 
@GrahamChiu Oh, well, I'm impressed that someone else did it, then. ;-)
 
well i doubt @DocKimbel is going to write the Rebol3 mysql driver so people need to look at alternatives
 
@GrahamChiu True.
 
@GrahamChiu still running from last night....no crash
although I didn't check why it has a total of 30 messages at this point
it should get every message, right?
 
9:11 PM
@kealist Yes
The script scans all messages available from the JSON, then downloads any messages not available in the message store
I guess you could look at all the messages to see which ones are missing .... to determine why it hasn't downloaded them all
 
@GrahamChiu I'll do it for Red, you are free to port it to R3 then. ;-)
 
9:28 PM
One of my coworkers from an internship in high school, years after the fact, when we were talking he mentioned this abstraction layer over databases I'd made because I didn't trust that there was much of a future in the dedicated database hardware we were programming for, and he said: "You essentially designed ODBC independently when you were 15". I said "yeah, don't remind me." (I was young and I thought I needed the money.)
People still actually are using ODBC? :-(
"Here at Initech, we use ODBC with a CORBA interface in Visual Basic 6, with an ActiveX front-end. Don't forget your TPS reports."
 
@DocKimbel I think I'm the wrong person since I've never used mysql with Rebol
There is a linux odbc ... don't think anyone has done that for rebol
 
9:54 PM
@GrahamChiu I'll load it on my laptop in a bit and configure it and try again.
I'll do something strange with network ports to see if I can find your error
From an earlier blog post Carl had mentioned something about 9910 being related to wake-up being called on non standard port size
 
10:09 PM
@kealist got a link?
 
@GrahamChiu rebol.net/r3blogs/0332.html. I'm not sure it gives much insight though
Wrong link. Dang apple products! rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0330
 
So, we need some way to probe the port that doesn't trigger the error.
If the port is undersized, then we need to trap each port creation and check it ... calling all C coders!
 
10:37 PM
@HostileFork so, do you have a vimeo account?
i created a Rebol and Red channel on vimeo: https://vimeo.com/channels/580221
they have an rss feed too, cool: vimeo.com/channels/580221/videos/rss
 
@GrahamChiu We need some way to trigger the error consistently
that is small
 
@kealist well, we can't do that at present, so some debugging code on port creation is next don't you think? Or do you have another idea?
 
@GrahamChiu Give me the evening and I'll see what I can pull off
test
test2
test4
 
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