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6:00 PM
@ingo Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ
 
@HostileFork @HostileFork even if I've not been very vocal, I've still followed conversations, so I know a bit about you :-)
 
So we've been talking about the conference. Any chance you can make it to Montreal July 12-14? If I'm driving all the way there, this needs to be a party...
 
@DocKimbel I thought, that these rebol-path should stay inside of the rebol console, but it seems, that cheyenne 'CALLs subprocesses with arguments.
And then fishshell tries to expand %* into a process-name.
I'm still trying to get this to work, though I am on SO since 1year 1 month, these are my first posts - it's only now that important things started :-)
@HostileFork didn't you send a list of keyboard shortcuts? I saw it fly by, but can't find it now.
 
6:22 PM
@ingo Well StackOverflow is a nice living medium. We can go back and fix answers. It's sort of like Wikipedia except using a reputation system to show how much the system "trusts" you...although ultimately moderation is up to the site operators. It's possible to suggest edits to posts even if you don't have the reputation to make those changes yourself.
 
I played around with my user information, seems SO got a little confused
 
@ingo There aren't a lot of keys in the chat, besides up arrow to edit your last message (assuming less than two minutes have passed). To be a "chat power user" you need the chat extensions script
Shift-Enter for a new line, helpful for multi-line input (which can then be set to a fixed font via a little orange button to the right of where you are typing)
@RebolBot
print "If I am given code on separate lines, I assume it's Rebol 3 to be run."
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {If I am given code on separate lines, I assume it's Rebol 3 to be run.}
If I am given code on separate lines, I assume it's Rebol 3 to be run.
 
@rebolBot do print "But if you don't put in a separate line, I require a DO so that I can know you mean to execute code and not speak in my bot-command-dialect"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {But if you don't put in a separate line, I require a DO so that I can know you mean to execute code and not speak in my bot-command-dialect}
But if you don't put in a separate line, I require a DO so that I can know you mean to execute code and not speak in my bot-command-dialect
 
6:29 PM
@IngoHohmann As you may have observed, there is a feature where if a line of chat contains only a URL, then certain kinds of URLs will be "oneboxed". This is currently a non-extensible list of things that the site knows how to handle. Images, StackOverflow questions or answers, Trello cards. They get a kind of preview/thumbnail view.
Each chat message itself has a URL which you can get via the "permalink" option (if you hover and then click the downward triangle on the left of a message).
9 mins ago, by ingo
I'm still trying to get this to work, though I am on SO since 1year 1 month, these are my first posts - it's only now that important things started :-)
Those chat links are among the URLs that have a behavior via oneboxing.
@IngoHohmann Because we treat chat as ephemeral (and want the bug databases, Q&A, etc to encode institutional knowledge) it can be hard to catch up if you're away for a while. So it's good to exercise your vote on notable moments in chat via the "starring" feature. Any chat message you didn't write you can star, and it makes it into the list on the right. You can view all the stars as well...we have 315 so far!
 
@user2433796 Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ
 
Hey @user2019515, it takes 20 points to chat on StackOverflow, a sort of bar to jump...but they're easy to get. It's better than typing in distorted text...I can't seem to get those anymore, so maybe I'm a bot. :-/
@user2019515 You can get points by asking good questions or giving good answers. So you might check out the tags to see if there are any questions in your area of expertise. Or perhaps just ask a question about a coding problem you're having. 20 happens quickly!
 
@HostileFork thank you, I didn't know about all the stars link, though I don't understand how a post from me got there :-)
 
6:44 PM
@ingo I starred it. Important things are afoot, I agree! :-)
If Carl thinks StackOverflow Q&A and chat are well done, and wonders aloud why people would use AltME at this point... then I think we are continuing the progress at pulling Rebol out of the shadows.
Open-source, GitHub, gradually the project's hands are becoming untied. Getting on Android. Making my logo official, finally. :-) I do think there's a critical mass to be reached here, just need to lay all the dominoes out correctly.
 
@HostileFork ahh, now that's true.
 
Not dividing our efforts unwisely across Rebol and Red, realizing we all pretty much want the same thing in the end.
 
I don't like Altme either this isn't really better, but at least I don't have to install it.
 
I'd say this is absolutely better. You can use it on your phone. We could have more than one channel and you can monitor more than one at a time...but we haven't felt that division was worth it.
Teaching people how to use it as a water cooler, while we manage our projects on Trello
 
Well, so far, nothing beats email :-)
 
6:53 PM
Skype is pretty effective for many things
 
Yes, I've used it a few times.
 
@HostileFork Discourse seems to be a good alternative to forums/AltME (when used as a forum). Been trying it out in a VM.
 
I really hope that the Rebol community gets out of the dark. It looks pretty dead from the outside, though I've been told that quite a lot is going on under the radar.
 
@ingo Historically that has been true in years past, most of the development was under the radar. I think that there was a big lull for a couple of years where not much was happening either on or off the radar...and this malaise became the last straw for @DocKimbel and so Red was born. Now we have two interesting artifacts whose history is to be decided.
I think most...but not all...work is on the radar now. It takes time to revive things, and we're kind of figuring things out. Lots of ideas, just need organization and hopefully some way of making sure people can work on Rebol without winding up in the poorhouse as a consequence.
@Adrian Perhaps a running discourse instance, links to Trello, etc. is the right angle for rebol.net. "The Rebol Developer Network"...chats, blogs, individual personalities. Then rebol.org can become sort of documentation and scripts. Keep rebol.com for corporate.
StackOverflow chat is a nice interim thing and has the side effect of getting people registered for the Q&A, so that's good. But in terms of the "long tail" I think that having the domain and policies set by the stakeholders is the right answer.
 
@HostileFork could be - Discourse is not really a chat system so it doesn't overlap this.
Who could host an instance?
 
7:05 PM
If they are developing it as a PaaS-style application, it could be run turnkey by people who don't give you shell access but rather keep your system going. It's sort of like the olden days when your friend would give you an FTP account to upload HTML and such to your site but you couldn't log in and install software...except now you're not FTP'ing them HTML but descriptions for Rails sites or Django sites etc.
PaaS => Platform as a Service
 
BitNami is providing one-click installs for it to run on your own server or on Amazon.
 
Well I'd like us to continue to work on the overall schematic and strategy. We have a certain number of identities to use in various ways. It would be nice to map a lot of different entry points to the community and showing people something that appeals to them.
I still like the idea of, for instance, taking rebolforces...and making it a rabid all-open-stack Rebellion. No windows, no mac, all Linux and Android. Pure principled open source. A mascot like this:
Coherence of design, coherence of message, with many forms of outreach.
And if we take rebol.net, my vision is that it be the "talky" and "engaging" side. The rebol developer network.
Rebol.com will be quiet. No way to contact it...pages like this will disappear. It will direct you to rebol.net if you want to talk and connect...and rebol.org if you want to read documentation or get scripts or download..
 
anyone tried to use reb/view or rebface as a CGI process in Cheyenne?
 
7:21 PM
@Henrik is Cheyenne the key word there, or CGI?
 
Both, I guess. rebface will not start, because cheyenne does not set environment variables for CGI, it seems.
I need to either make rebface not run the GET-NET-INFO function, which looks for the HOME variable or I need to set the HOME variable.
 
@Henrik Hmm, what OS? Processes inherit environments unless explicitly overridden. Can't you set an environment variable at an outer level?
 
OSX. I don't know how to set that variable at an outer level.
 
Rebol 2 /View, under Cheyenne, on OSX. What are you doing, exactly? :-)
How is it you are launching Cheyenne. Command line?
 
I'm trying to get some R2/View code to run as a CGI process.
Well, it runs under launchd, but I think the result could be the same for command line. Not sure though...
 
7:26 PM
Well, you can set environment variables on OSX with export HOME="/Users/Henrik" if you wish.
And try it from the command line
 
yes, true. but where? when I run the CGI process straight from the command line, they are set properly.
 
It's probably launchd then. Not running as a user I'd guess
1
Q: Defining environment variables with launchd/launchctl

Percival UlyssesThere are different solutions regarding the definition of environment variables that are stored in the launchd process, namely over at StackOverflow and Superuser. How do these solutions differ?

 
As a quick fix try setting the env variable from a CGI script
 
Graham, that's too late. The variable is probed during boot.
 
@HuayinWang Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ
 
7:38 PM
what user aacount is Cheyenne running under?
 
root
 
good evening!
 
I'm still wondering though if it's not better to simply not probe for that variable.
 
@pierre about 3:00 PM here... sun is shining, and I'm programming in... C :-/
 
7:54 PM
@moliad hey! sounds exciting!
 
I think the most important strategy is to have an active community and development in the open. With a one stop information source.

For example, the r3 github repository should either be active, or have a BIG sign: "This repo is meant to be silent. Development is taking place at -> r3source. Here you'll only find find RT blessed releases."

And r3source should better be active.
 
@HostileFork Hi Fork, didn't noticed that I have this page opened.. so many tabs:) Yes, working on game (not games, we are slow). Using REBOL as a key tool, of course.
 
@HostileFork sorry about this (C)... 22PM here, cold as in winter, sun is now below horizon...
 
@HostileFork, changing the environment variable in launchd worked.
 
@Henrik Coolio.
@Oldes That's awesome, I've been wondering if there was any chance we could put together a little tiny sample game (with horrible amateur graphics) in the style of Machinarium to promote the flash dialect...and if the dialect could have a GitHub page/etc.
I'll draw the horrible graphics :-)
 
7:57 PM
ah, well, that was only part of the problem... rebface forcibly prints something, which makes it useless for CGI.
 
@Oldes I understand you don't have time to support it, but if there could be a main GitHub repository then perhaps others could (for instance) port it to R3
 
@HostileFork I'm not using the dialect anymore, unfortunately. But I'm using various REBOL script to work with assets. And I'm too busy with my main job.
 
@Oldes Also I saw that Red icon your friend drew, it had some good lines on it. I do think the original even proportionality was more "pleasing". Don't know if you saw my take on the Android icons...
@Oldes Ah. Oh well. It would be interesting to hear the reasons why you abandoned it... what the problems or crossovers were when the dialect simply wasn't adding value. That could be a useful post-mortem.
 
@HostileFork I agree. Still, many people from the former Rebol community would be welcome here. I'll try to rally some from the French side. A few old rebolers come in digicamsoft.com/cgi-bin/rebelBB.cgi from time to time.
 
You can see REBOL scripts here: github.com/Oldes/Starling-timeline-example
The icon... Phob claims he is working on it, but he is probably very busy.. and he is also very active with not computer related activities.
 
8:03 PM
@Henrik Can you pipe it through a filter?
 
@ingo this SO chat is better, more modern than AltMe, true; but I miss the separation between conversations'themes from AltMe.
 
@pierre Non-mixing is possible here too. You can join and monitor multiple channels, it works pretty well. And I have vowed that we will make a Rebol development channel, where the curecode bugs go etc. I just wanted critical mass first.
 
@HostileFork Not sure that I can, or should need to. rebface should not output anything, when running as CGI, so I would consider this a bug.
 
Yes, makes sense.
 
We are getting more lately, a bit of a wave perhaps inspired by Carl's visit.
But I would like people to not just hang out in the dev channel, but be willing to keep a user channel active.
The dev channel would be invite only to talk.
 
8:05 PM
By the way: the way "guru" is written can be interpreted...
how would I say...
Hm...
"sect-like"?...
(don't know if this makes any sense in English...)
 
We change the message with our whims. :-)
 
Whim?
google translate...
ok
Maybe we could use the term "Inventor" instead?
 
I used to actually be very against the "gurus building the future" tagline on the Rebol sites, where all the Rebol sites looked inactive and had a very Web 1.0 look... and the blogs were rants and spam... it seemed to be "promising more than being delivered"
 
Just a detail. But the "guru" term can be shocking, for some people.
 
Never heard that rebface be used as CGI
 
8:07 PM
@Grah
@GrahamChiu, unfortunately, this is exactly what I need right now.
 
what do you need view for?
 
@HostileFork I read it all the time on my phone... which prevents me from writing a lot!
 
Graham, generating bitmaps that are sent as a result to the recipient.
 
@pierre We (and by we, I mostly mean I) try to write a very short tagline that fits well on the chat selection board with our FAQ link.
 
why face and not view?
 
8:09 PM
@ingo I agree. I miss the good old mailing list. Unbeatable, you can read mails where or when you have no Internet access, for instance.
 
doesn't view have a no install flag
 
@pierre You can subscribe to questions in Rebol tags and get mail, there's RSS too. And thanks to @rgchris you have RSS for the answers to Rebol-tagged questions also. The chat...well, doesn't do that.
If we can keep attendance numbers for a good solid week here, I'll support an invite-only dev channel breakoff. CureCode bugs and Trello notifications will go there. Q&A stay here. Casual chat remains here to catch drive-bys.
 
HostileFork has added an event to this room's schedule.
 
@ingo Yes. I also would be much in favour of explicitely saying Rebol3 instead of R3. I repeat myself... But I hate meaningless acronyms... Except REBOL! ;-)
 
Ha, Carl used r3!
 
8:16 PM
earl, I'll get back to you on that. I have only tried rebface, because I didn't want to deal with VID, because we use enface for the code that now needs to run as CGI.
 
@pierre I agree and go even further, I say Rebol 3 is Rebol. We nail the Rebol format, fix it and finalize it as a data format. We would speak instead of "DO dialect 3" vs "DO dialect 4", but the heart of Rebol is a data representation, and that needs to be pinned down.
 
@HostileFork Pinned down so that we can never ever get Twitter-like username handles as a lexical datatype?
 
@HostileFork ...
 
And Red uses the same format. We roll that up with REN and eat YAML's lunch.
 
I meant: my telephone (without keyboard) is the thing that prevents from typing a lot.
I'm obviously on a real computer now...
 
8:19 PM
@earl No, I mean we sort those things out instead of reinventing GUI wheels and running around like chickens with their heads cut off making cash register interfaces and reinventing like... Motif widget sets on bitmap buffers.
 
@Henrik Not sure that view is more difficult to get working than face. So when you already have face running ...
@HostileFork If you finalise the full syntax as data format, you lose all future syntactical flexibility.
 
Now what... I think I never heard of this "face" yet; what is it, another view equivalent? Or does it simply refer to the "faces" in view?
 
@earl you are probably right. Trying rebview now, and it seems to be more quiet.
 
@pierre Used it as a shorthand for rebface (because I was on the phone), which is a R2 interpreter variant part of the R2 SDK.
 
@earl ok, got it
 
8:22 PM
pierre, rebface is a barebones version without GUI system and some other fancy things that rebview has.
 
@Henrik Yes, rebview as CGI should definitely work. (At least I had rebview running Vanilla for a long time.)
 
ok, I heard of rebface before, even though I didn't figure out exactly what it was.
 
@earl It is not possible to engineer a solution that will last forever (assuming crazy people with nuclear weapons or their barbaric attitudes make don't spiral this world into chaos in the next months or years, and hence forever is even worth considering).
 
@HostileFork Certainly not, no.
 
But there is a value to defining standards, I will again refer you to Knuth's versioning number scheme on TeX. 3.1415... etc, adding a digit each time. When he dies, it is declared to be version PI and all remaining bugs are declared features.
 
8:24 PM
@HostileFork I wish I could fully agree with you. If only Rebol3 was able to do all what Rebol2 (/view) is able to do. (sigh...)
 
Data formats have very different evolutionary constraints compared to programming language syntax, though.
 
Getting late here: good night, gentlemen!
(and gentlewomen?)
 
The one gentlewoman is out at the moment. :-)
@earl Well there are ways to futureproof extensibility, and ways to prohibit it. Small decisions have wide-reaching ramifications. There is such a thing as "Reserved for Future Use", but I'm just saying we need to put some stakes in the ground.
 
@HostileFork The question is if we want to stake a sizeable estate, or a whole continent.
But aim for the impossible, I guess.
 
@earl Bring together Rebol, Red, Ren. Synergize on what we know. Every solution to a problem has a context; would we use cassette tape adapters if we were not trying to tie together mismatched mediums?
The human body, the human mind, fingers typing on keyboards, this is a very contrived and Rube-Goldberg style form of programming. I think we need to understand these ideas as a solution within a context... that one, as well as the current technological milieu.
 
8:31 PM
great, now if rebview would stop popping a dock icon on every launch, that would be another problem solved.
 
In Rebol 3 there is an acceptance of Unicode. Ok. It widens the space a bit.
But Rebol still aims to be the language you can program in without "Intellisense(tm)". It's a poetic and linguistic exercise. And I think that yes, we can nail the format down pretty well. 18 years is a long time to have a "guru meditation"
 
@HostileFork Would we have nailed down the syntax 5 years ago, you'd never ever get Twitter handles.
I still see a lot of flexibility to be gained from treating a data subset and the full language format differently.
 
@earl I'm not sure that 5 years ago, sensible people would have found a reason to throw away the token space of things beginning with @.
 
The benefit of hindsight.
I guess we'll see in 5 years what we perfectly sensible people have forgot about.
 
Well, what if we look at it with the benefit of hindsight. And use formal methods instead of "here be dragons" open code...and don't throw anything out unless there's an established token meaning? And then pare the space down in UNICODE and say we don't care what happens after UNICODE?
There is no "Turing Machine 2.1beta"
 
8:40 PM
If only syntax where as simple as Turing-completeness.
 
Some spaces can be mapped and solved, within the context of their problem statement.
 
And some flexibility and adaptability can be killed right away with over-eagerly restricting the context of the problem.
 
Well, I just do ask that we think on firming things up. I am biased because I think Rebol is an educational tool, a nicely built toy... like a box of old-school LEGOs. It can be pleasing. But ultimately, intention and software should not be teletyped into a terminal any more than you design jets in Microsoft Paint.
It's just kind of amazing how much farther you can go in the medium than others have seen. So I would compare it to old-school LEGOs vs action figures, or Lincoln Logs, or whatever.
 
@HostileFork Can't do engineering in the subjunctive.
 
@earl Wouldn't it be interesting if you could?
 
8:44 PM
Sure, but I can't :)
I'm all for liberating our minds from these limited hulls we call body.
 
@earl Well, the question futurists face is "where do you stop". I know people involved in Alcor, and you go to parties and they talk about sawing heads off and freezing them. Others who wear bracelets instructing the medics to inject them with... um, whatever makes it possible to freeze you better, and then deliver them to Alcor. People do this for real, and I know them.
But I've asked some of them about the question: it's millions of years in the future and post-post-humans figure out how to thaw you. They don't care about eating, sleeping, and two arms with five fingers each seems kinda byzantine. Do you want to be brought forward to their society, or live in a simulation of the past with which you are familiar?
I'm one of the "no simulation" sorts. Show me what's what, to the best of your knowledge. But many would like to go on living as they have; comfortable.
But the question of where to stop almost makes knowledge sound like an addiction. If you've grown up all your life with two arms with five fingers each--not that it's intrinsically a great number, but that's the comfort zone you have--then when to stop?
I do think this is relevant for Rebol. Carl has indicated a bit that he has moved on from this particular piece of the cosmic puzzle, and those of us interested remain to maintain it. And he has some philosophical / metaphysical views guiding his choice.
 
Not wanting to drift off-topic too far into friendly AI and post-singularity realms: the point was that despite the limitations of terminals and teletypes, it's what we got right now. And it already allows us to build great things, so I see no point in artificially limiting the design possibilities of what we have because we could eventually get something better.
 
I'd argue that the deeper one gets into design, one realizes that limits are what shapes and create great designs.
 
Absolutely.
 
@earl Oops, wrong one. I was actually looking for this one:
I'm not asking that every single decision of Rebol be nailed down, but I would like us to fix the standard of the data format, and share that standard with Red. I think that doing so will be far more valuable than leaving it open-ended. Let's just be intelligent--as you and others have suggested--about formalizing it well enough to know how the token space is carved up and know it has been mapped out well.
 
8:58 PM
As I have always cautioned, you can't map out the token space of Rebol "well".
You either significantly limit the space, or you compromise, compromise, compromise (in many very formally ugly ways).
 
As a great poet once said: "There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don’t know."
Can we put together some lists? We have collaborative tools like Trello. We have kind of hard to look at things like CureCode. We have Google Docs, we have chat. Can everyone concretize their concerns? This is abstract.
You mention Twitter handles, but that's on the list. I think we're just wondering what to call the new union of emails and twitter handles or StackChat addresses... "email!" seems a poor name but BrianH is convinced that changing type names is Very Bad.
Red needed hex literals. Okay, that's... TWO things. What else?
 
What what else?
 
Where else are you feeling Rebol is not capitalizing well enough on token space?
 
Look at a formalisation of Rebol syntax and the conflicts will hit you right away.
 
Well, I'm not talking about conflicts (overcapitalization). I'm talking undercapitalization.
 
9:04 PM
Undercapitalisation is not the problem.
 
Do you agree with the comma/period distinction as being too negligible to accept in any case where a period and a comma aren't equivalent?
 
Computer languages evolve, or they die, or they become zombies. For Rebol as a language so very much grounded in and dependent on lexical syntax, flexibility for syntactical evolution is key.
If you nail down the lexical syntax by committee and decree, you take away that flexibility.
 
@earl I'm not sure what's legal to smoke over there in Austria, but what's language #1 on Tiobe?
Rebol is an unknown not for its lack of versatile syntax.
 
Tobacco, afaik.
And if I'm not mistaken, you are the one always proudly proclaiming to love C++11.
 
I do.
You made an argument for popularity/death/livingness.
And C++11 is slow on the uptake unless you work in a high performance environment that refuses to allow failure. Hence, not much in the web world would care.
 
9:08 PM
I doubt C would be Tiobe #1 if we'd still be living solely with K&R C.
(And no, I wouldn't count C in the zombie category.)
 
I'd like us to pin down Rebol as data format. I'd like the FUNCTION/FUNC and CLOSURE/CLOS stuff to go through, and Carl seemed cool with it, and BrianH is cool with it, and if that happens then score another victory for the Fork :-)
But the DO dialect and such are not the main thing. Nice to have consistency with Red, the more the better.
 
Again, make a distinction between a data format subset and the full lexical syntax of a particular language implementation.
I'd very very very much like to pin down a data format.
 
@RebolBot
print {"Hello @hegemon," said {RebolBot}, "and welcome to the Rebol and Red room! It's nice to meet you!"}
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {"Hello @hegemon," said {RebolBot}, "and welcome to the Rebol and Red room!  It's nice to meet you!"}
"Hello @hegemon," said {RebolBot}, "and welcome to the Rebol and Red room!  It's nice to meet you!"
 
@earl Well let's you + me + @rgchris + @DocKimbel + @BrianH and everyone else who cares put our thinking caps on. At the conference in Montreal let's get out our feather quills and sign off on it! We can do it, I swear.
@hegemon We're having some internal Rebol-developers-debate here, but always interested in explaining why we spend so much time on it to newcomers. :-) Ever heard of us?
 
9:43 PM
@earl remind me, what's stopping the sha256 code being accepted? testing?
 
@GrahamChiu What SHA256 code?
(And that's probably your answer right there :)
 
9:59 PM
@earl It's still not clear to me where these special lexical requirements are. I also don't understand why the constraints of the data format shouldn't apply to a script. As far as I can tell from any description of Rebol, they are the same thing.
Anyway, not wanting to flog this particular horse at the moment, only a few hours of Lima left...
 
@rgchris Question is whether such a description should stay just that: descriptive, or become prescriptive.
If the data format is a subset of the full lexical syntax, then the constraints of the data format would still apply (in one direction): you couldn't have valid data that is invalid code.
 
@earl But you can create valid scripts that are invalid data. Not clear on why you'd want to allow that.
 
Because of the benefits this compromise would bring for the data format.
 
What are the gains?
 
A useful formal specification.
Long-term stability.
Decoupling.
 
10:08 PM
I don't see decoupling as an advantage. Or that code should supersede the formal specification.
 
Code can have a formal specification of it's own, just a less useful one.
And decoupling helps a lot for evolution. Otherwise, you'll have to syntactically evolve all eventual language implementations in lock step.
Which, if programming language history is any clue, inevitably leads to one thing: "vendor-specific extensions". Same horse, another colour.
But let's leave the horse be for the moment, and rather enjoy the Llamas :)
(If there are any, in Lima.)
 
Only pictures, for the most part...
Just asked—apparently there are some at the Ministry of Tourism.
 
Heh, appropriate :)
 
10:59 PM
@Grzegorz Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ
 
@earl I thought marc had submitted an open sha-256 implementation but I can't find it now
Or maybe he never made a pull request or something
https://github.com/0branch/r3/commit/90ce4ee20b99bae5a485dc30f1ab3c7ccaf351f1
 
11:34 PM
Hum. Bought Magic Trackpad hoping for better tactile interface than the Wacom Intuos5, yet it's not as different as I'd hoped. Definite friction difference, a bit lighter, just not super significant.
Anyway, needed another mouse-like device and thought I'd try something new
There is a "skidding" on the surface of the Wacom Intuos 5 pen tablet / touch tablet which you feel as a bump-bump-bump if you try and make a large movement. It is constrained by the need to create a firm surface that the pen nibs will not wear out, and definitely not a good day-to-day pointing device with your finger.
I remembered the magic trackpad feeling glasslike when I felt it at a friend's house, and it is certainly moreso... just... not as pronounced a difference side to side.
 
I'm not understanding the development process here. Carl seems to agree about funct/function etc .. so who's responsible for doing something about this?
 
@GrahamChiu I believe I summed it up earlier. Carl's general shift of interest in thinking Rebol advancements or evangelism has, perhaps obviously, shifted him to the point where he no longer thinks his decisions are all that important or relevant. This has cascaded to where he has--at least for a while--not felt a great calling to consider his role in the SEO/reputation of the project.
It's not that he disagrees, or that he doesn't think there should be a community consortium to make these kinds of decisions now.
It's just that he wants the decisions reasoned out by those who step up, and I think we should offer a cohesive plan at the conference. He'll probably be fine with it.
 
His blog entry from several months ago indicated that he was happy we just carried on without depending on him
the issue is .. there is no "we" yet
 
As @BrianH said "no problem". He doesn't have to. And @Adrian has pointed out when I get a bit down on myself for how much work I'm doing, it's not like I have to do it either. It's not about what you do or don't do, it's about standing in people's way who are trying to get things done.
If someone is paying you and there are expectations, well, ok.
That's a job. But in volunteer circumstances, just don't hold anyone back. The problem is that Carl does control a few domain names and if we're trying to operate under that "brand" then we need his help, and by not helping he is holding us back.
 
I'm talking about advancing the code base
 
11:48 PM
Also with the "official" repository. These things cross the line from "well, I didn't have time" to "I'm actively creating chaos for the others who will invest time"
 
so that people who have an interest don't lose their interest and stop submitting whatever
 
But Carl in his visit seemed pretty ready to hand over things, he just doesn't know who exactly it is he's supposed to hand things over to. You? Me? Andreas? MaxV? Shadwolf?
 
I'd say hand over to whoever has shown the most committment in getting things done
in so far as the past can be used to predict the future
 
Well I say let's make a consortium like other open source projects do.
 
Ok, I don't know what that involves
If we need a committee .. so be it
 
11:51 PM
All things being equal, I prefer not have a "vote", per se. I don't want to be perceived as pushing my agenda more than people already think I do.
I'm a PAC (Programming Action Committee) :-)
 
We just don't want to be held back because someone who controls things is too busy with life
How about a trello card?
Get some ideas started
this lack of apparent action is ... killing
 
@GrahamChiu Well when Carl came by, and in some other times, it has seemed you've gone to the darker/disappointed side. And I understand that feeling. But I am a bit of a glacier-watcher. And I think that expecting an overnight successful open-source organization to emerge due to an open sourcing six months ago is a bit unrealistic.
 
@HostileFork so you keep saying
I just think we're capable of this
It's not as though we're like the old days linked only by email lists
We have real time communication
 
Well I keep saying it because it is true. Rebol did not start out in the environment it has landed in...and the community surrounding it didn't "grow up" in the world we are deploying in now.
 
We don't have a bureaucracy to deal with
 
11:57 PM
Carl's comfort in selling a product...that comes in a box...and you have a thing you plug in...that's his comfort zone as an EE.
You make a thing. It works. People buy it, in a store. It comes in a box.
And if you saw his pride in that--it was you buy it and it just does what it's supposed to. How rarely do we see that? I understand.
Rebol is a solution in search of a problem, in a way. People who use JavaScript or Ruby or Python will argue with each other indefinitely. And the bytes and opcodes will run underneath them just as they will anywhere.
 
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