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8:02 PM
@earl Ah, right—speed over purity. So how much of a trade off is purity over speed, aka option (2)?
 
@rgchris It's not only "speed over purity", it's practicality over purity as well.
 
@earl And the C lexer represents practicality?
 
@rgchris Yes. Added burden on the implementer, to gain more flexibility in favour of the user.
I had this example before, suggesting that things get a lot easier if you just specify that all tokens ("values") have to be separated by whitespace.
 
I thought R3 was abandoning such sops to the user.
 
Last I looked, R3 still allowed me to smush various delimiters together :)
 
8:09 PM
What if the only exception were ()[]?
 
Ren should be ahead of R3 syntax for some time. It's easier to require some syntax than implementing it. Ren specification should be based on RFC's but it probably shouldn't except 100% implementation.
 
And /—for paths.
 
@rgchris That would be mean what I mentioned above: a lot of change for R3 literal syntax.
 
@earl I still think it's possible to smush in a reasoned way, but then again it's not all that helpful and how often is that used?
@earl A lot of change under the hood, perhaps—but how many scripts would have to change? I fancy not many.
 
@rgchris Some smushing is basically used all the time, other forms less often so.
@rgchris "How many scripts will have to change": we'll never know.
 
8:12 PM
Are there any prominent R3 scripts that employ smushing beyond blocks/parens?
 
R3 currently uses at least ()[]"{}/; and NUL (and EOF) as delimiters.
 
@earl I'd disregard "{}, strings should not be different to any other non-block type.
 
other non-block types?
 
You can do an analysis over the public Rebol code that is out there, to get some empiric data.
 
@earl That sounds like fun :)
 
8:17 PM
posted on April 07, 2013 by fork

[Wish] As pointed out in CC#2016, Rebol's usage of the term "port" is going to seem incorrect to many because they are used to believing that if you read a URL like: http://example.com:8080 That they are "connecting to example.com on port 8080". It's an extremely common thing to say, and this commonality makes it seem like Rebol is using the word incorrectly. But as there has been at le

 
@rebolek Yes—white space required between values with the exception of blocks, parens, path contents.
As a general Rebol rule—what would such a rule break?
 
@rgchris {}{}, foo"bar", comment{}.
 
@earl That'd be a sacrifice worth making.
 
Probably, yes. But still, it changes R3 literal syntax a lot.
 
I like the idea of having comma as whitespace. Some people can't live without comma - Rebol hates comma, but if it was treated as every other whitespace character - it wouldn't change anything for Rebol but it would make things easier for others.
 
8:25 PM
@rebolek I've suggested comma be it's own type.
 
Currently, comma is forbidden character - it's reserved not to be used anywhere. But adding comma to whitespace characters would easify syntax.
@rgchris I see comma used as delimiter, if it was converted to space, Rebol wouldn't have slightest problem reading those data.
 
@earl Only in so much that it disallows smushing. Whether that's a significant change to the rules of conventional use, I would doubt it. But you're right—it'd be helpful to gather data.
Straw poll—who smushes (beyond []()/ )???
 
@rgchris I wouldn't even know without doing analysis over my own code.
I think I don't do in "normal" code, but I have no idea how much "abnormal" code I wrote :)
 
I suppose I may be extrapolating on my own OCD tendencies to always code in a visual manner. But even then, I don't recall seeing smushing in other code.
Getting back to the point—a refined, formal, standardised Rebol specification would be the ultimate data-is-code-is-data exchange format.
 
8:40 PM
@rgchris A far more restricted subset would have a much better chance at wide-spread adoption, though.
@rgchris A few quick grepping attempts show 26 scripts in the rebol.org library smushing {.
 
+1 for a very-restricted subset. IMHO, the smaller the better for making a significant impact in people's mind on first sight.
 
@earl I'd again say that's debatable—it depends who's implementing the parsers. And at a cost.
 
@rgchris I don't think there's much to debate. A spec that can be correctly implemented by a single person in half a day has a much better chance at getting implemented than one requiring 5 persons to work a week each.
 
@earl If that were the difference between the two, then that'd be correct.
The advantage REN has is that you can specify it tomorrow. Rebol will take longer to specify, but once it is, I don't think there'd be an appreciable difference in the length of time to write implementations.
 
@rgchris Well, that's what I strongly doubt. I'd rather bet on a very significant difference in implementation complexity.
 
8:54 PM
I'd take that bet :)
 
JSON specifies 7 literal types. Your current EBNF specifies 25 literal types, and misses an explicit 26th "map" type.
Many host languages already have difficulties with JSON's 7 types; that situation won't get simpler with adding 19 more types, many of which you'll never need.
 
There is no literal map type in Rebol, other than #[map! []] (which notation I define as Literal). The REN map type seems a similar kludge.
 
Again, REN is not even specified yet.
 
Fair enough.
 
So in a conforming implementation, you'll have to decide what to do with 15+ types you can't natively map to your host language.
That will result in an appreciable difference of implementation complexity.
 
8:58 PM
I think there shouldn't be map! and object! in Ren, just map! (it's shorter) with suggested use of set-words (keys) but possible use of strings.
@earl It will, but languages tend to support more types over time.
 
@earl That'd be 22 value types and 3 block types.
 
@rgchris What's the third block type besides block and paren?
 
@earl Not necessarily, a parser just has to support them—it doesn't have transliterate all of them.
@earl Path.
 
@rgchris Limited block type, ok.
@rgchris Yes, I guess most implementations would create dumb string wrappers for the "superfluous" types. Hardly useful.
 
@earl Not so—you can infer meaning from type.
How do you plan to handle email/url vs string?
 
9:04 PM
@rgchris Sure, but then a plain key/value tagging mechanism is much more flexible.
 
It would be interpreted as string almost anywhere right now but those who can use it can implement it and work with it.
 
@rebolek How would that be different for the omitted types?
Ok, I think I need to step back from this.
 
@rgchris The rule should be - if you can't convert it, interpret it as string. This way there can be functions that will support broader subset of Ren than their languages (send like function can interpret email as email but return it as string for further use if the language doesn;t support it.)
 
@rebolek Yes, that'd be how I'd expect it to work.
Whether it was Rebol or REN.
@earl I do appreciate your patience in hearing out my concerns. I certainly didn't intend to drag it out, but I guess when it gets in your mind...
 
9:21 PM
@earl the latest version I have is indexed on WWW.r3gui.com but a large number of changes including explanatory and introductory text has been added by coauthors. Fork can provide a link, but I can't on this N7
 
Also, Ren is ALMOST SUBSET of Rebol. But actually it's dialect.
 
There are some factual and coding errors to be fixed
 
@rgchris Thanks for the civil discussion. I only now realised for how long we've been going on at this :)
 
I'm not sure if it counts as rigour, only if it brought up some workable points, I suppose :)
 
Let's call it rigour! :)
In any case, I didn't perceive it as dragged out, as I think there are many valid and often conflicting concerns to take account of.
 
9:25 PM
Rigour mortis
 
@GrahamChiu Got it (on r3gui.com); seems I overlooked it earlier.
 
@GrahamChiu Ah, yes—thanks Graham.
 
Close event should set state to 'close and not 'ready
 
@rgchris I think I've sort of been convinced at this poiint that commas. periods, and the Arabic Comma are visibly too close to be meaningfully distinguished.
 
@HostileFork It's a strong case against, I agree.
 
9:34 PM
Maybe it's time for us to start collecting a set of essays on REBOL to wean off REBOL.com
 
@GrahamChiu Yep, absolutely.
 
I do think that these are cases where Rebol would do better to explain up-front its decisions in reasoned documents. I've gone on the hunt to stop people writing short snippets of code and going "Wow, Rebol can do all that in one line!" Immediately it gets people thinking of how their language could do that thing in one line too. It takes a long way to get people turned around once their mind goes on the offensive in that fashion.
 
can qm host such a site to support different markups?
 
Instead it's better to start with getting people to think about stuff they never thought of. I'd never thought of the comma and period thing.
 
such as markup, asciidoc, make doc, PDF?
 
9:36 PM
@GrahamChiu + markdown
 
Is it an airtight argument? Well, I don't know. But it's certainly a compelling and unique one. The braces for stings, the brackets that don't need shift... all these things were neglected in favor of argument-inducing pitches.
 
I really don't want to use php
 
@GrahamChiu Me neither. I'm playing with something pandoc-based to prepare for a "docs" section on rebolsource.net.
 
@rebolek Rebolek, you are not realizing some things that are important. For example, RFC 3986 specifies syntax that is not hard to enhance while stilll accepting all RFC 3986 "legal" URLs.
 
:8721206
 
9:40 PM
If we just wanted to "conform" to RFC 3986, we would limit ourselves unnecessarily
 
@GrahamChiu QM is a framework—a way of organising a web application. It can do anything Rebol can fundamentally.
 
@Ladislav There are two types of freedoms: Freedom To and Freedom From in Software Architecture
 
@HostileFork have you received an answer to your last email to me?
 
@rebolek Also, does your "REN definition will" mean that you want to become incompatible with Rebol if your wish is not respected?
 
@Ladislav I agree for enhancing Rebol types. I was talking about situations where Rebol doesn't meet RFC requirements.
 
9:43 PM
@graph Last email received was 2hrs ago...
 
@rebolek You should be more specific, I still do not know what it means.
Any difference can be understood either as an "enhancement" or not. Who decides?
@HostileFork Tried to read it but did not see the relation to the problem at hand.
@rebolek BTW, what is meant by "rich datatypes"?
 
@Ladislav The relation is that if URL decoding does constrain itself to the spec, then there is a guarantee people don't have to do their own checks that it has been constrained before passing it on to something that expects conformance. Freedom To Extend vs. Freedom From Worrying When Passing Things On
 
@Ladislav datatypes that don`t have direct interpretation in most languages like email!, url! and others.
 
@HostileFork There is not "freedom when passing things on" since URLs are not accepted as Rebol values by any software distinct from Rebol at present
 
@HostileFork sent again......
 
9:53 PM
Not to mention that internal representations are not passed at all usually
 
@Ladislav (?) They are if you convert them to a string and stick them in as a parameter in a JSON message that is expecting a valid URI...
 
Yes, but "convert to a string" is an operation
Which does not produce Rebol URL
 
Is it? It's string and you are loading values from it.
 
"convert to a string" produces syntax
e.g. using the FORM, MOLD, TO-STRING or some other function
Of course, it is possible to create a "strict" RFC 3986 syntax using e.g. some STRICT-RFC-3986 function, but you should look at the CureCode ticket #2013 and tell us which alternative you prefer (there are three listed).
 
That conversion wasn't meant for Rebol but for languages that do not support email, url and similar datatypes. They should convert these values to string. Rebol can recognise these types, so it would just assign right types to those values.
 
10:02 PM
Frankly, I am not interested in seeing some "general informations". I prefer specific preferences.
I.e. what exactly a specific person prefers when encountering a specific syntax
 
There are syntax specifications that lot of people respect. It makes sense to support those specifications.
 
10:18 PM
@earl any reference for a dictionary explanation of "smushing"?
or @RGChris
@rebolek Exactly what I find unuseful for the purpose. Did you read CC #2013?
aha, you did, sorry.
 
Yes. #1986.
 
But, anyway, I am still curious which alternative is the preferred one. If the "strict RFC" is used as a rule, then the syntax mentioned in CC #2013 should cause an error?
I guess that is not what you find useful, is it?
 
I think I have same preferences as you. Original, followed by percent encoding.
 
Yes, but that already contradicts RFC
 
Once it's loaded it should follow only Rebol rules.
 
10:29 PM
Also, I still do not know what @HostileFork prefers in this case
@rebolek Yes, but it breaks the RFC rules even before it is loaded...
 
@Ladislav please, put these ideas to humanistic/REN at github so anyone can talk about it.
 
@rgchris How hard to create a documentation framework for all those mark* languages?
 
10:45 PM
@RebolBot
reverse http://hostilefork.com
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> reverse hostilefork.com
== moc.krofelitsoh//:ptth
 
@Ladislav Well I think that Rebol clearly has its own rules for url! itself being just strings with a type, so there is no enforcement...and that's okay in source. Seems the parser doesn't need the same rule. However, what network schemes allow should be official URIs, so if you try to read or write at a non-URI it should fail.
And the URI validation logic as available to the network scheme logic should be available to users, and part of the API.
 
@HostileFork I do not think I found out which alternative from those mentioned in CC #2013 you prefer.
 
@Ladislav Hadn't seen that part. Well by what I say above, I'm not all that concerned about what kinds of things make it into a url! via LOAD because even if you follow the RFC it breaks immediately. So why not make it support as much as you can? What protection are we really being offered? Just make sure to quarantine the ones that don't follow the RFC to stay within the Rebolverse.
@RebolBot
mold reverse hostilefork.com
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> mold reverse hostilefork.com
== "moc.krofelitsoh//:ptth"
 
11:00 PM
I should go back and look at whatever the argument was for why that's okay
 
11:42 PM
@Ladislav Aha, so you don't know every technical term! :)
 
you might have not found out, but I am not English
 
@Ladislav Smushing: a variant of squash together. In this particular case, no whitespace between values.
[a<tag>word"string"]
@RebolBot
[a<tag>word"string"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> [a <tag> word "string"]
== [a <tag> word "string"]
 
@Ladislav I wonder where @earl picked it up from :)
@GrahamChiu You mean my Alt* scripts?
 
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