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10:00 PM
@graph Well I think, that when you stand from a bird's eye view, you would imagine that the number 3 would figure in the real specification of the problem... you've wound up with jumbling the details of how with the what.
 
Ok, here's the code and I will give an explanation: `
chars: complement charset ""
match?: false
parse string [some [set char chars char some char (match?: true) | skip]]
`
 
usually yes, but you have the first match (.) that you refer to later
so the first one is there, and then you check for 2 more
 
hm, so much for message formating...
anyway
 
Rebol is precisely about matching your source to the "essential complexity" of your problem, as opposed to "accidental complexity".
 
hah
 
10:02 PM
@rebolek you need to break that out. Don't put multi-line code in the same chat message as your text. Make it a separate one, and use the "fixed font" button that appears when you Shift-Enter or paste multiline text.
Multiline text won't run markup. No links, no bold, etc.
 
I will try it
 
You can edit, don't forget...
2 minute time window.
 
	chars: complement charset ""
	match?: false
	parse string [some [set char chars char some char (match?: true) | skip]]
 
@rebolek Well played.
 
Ok, better.
 
10:03 PM
I don't think that demonstrates my point though.
What a weird edge case to have as a first trial. It's kind of funny.
 
It's not very fit for parse.
 
YES MY REGEX IS CLEARLY BETTER
I WIN ?
 
In this case yes :)
 
I can't say I like either of them. I'd probably parse the sorted string, or something.
I declare no winner, they're both terrible. It's not a problem meant for pattern matchers of this nature, it's just uniquely weird that you can do it briefly in RegEx.
That's like saying "my language has a primitive h which prints 'Hello World'. So if you just say h it prints 'Hello World'. How many characters in your language?"
And you go "um, we have to say print {Hello World}"
And they say "hahahaha! WE WIN!"
Well, won what, exactly?
The problem here @graph is that you created this not from a practical problem but from the point of view of (apparently) teaching RegEx. which means the examples will be biased to what's easy to do in RegEx. Do you have anything PRACTICAL that was motivated by something that didn't start with RegEx?
 
I knew the rule can be made bit simpler: parse string [some [set char chars 2 char (match?: true) | skip]]
 
10:09 PM
ok lol
 
earl has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
ok another one
 
Hullo @Jina ! Our apologies for the 20 rep requirement and the gag so you can't talk. It's very easy to get rep and easier if you let us look at your profile and upvote you. :-) But read our FAQ
 
match "Iraq" but not "quit" -> make it so that there should be no "u" after a "q"
 
Now we're talking
 
10:10 PM
it's ON
 
Ok, easy one:
>> parse "Iraq" [to "q" not "u" to end]
== true

>> parse "Quit" [to "q" not "u" to end]
== true
Ehm...
 
q(?!u)
 
I'm getting tired :)
 
it should match all general cases for "a q but not u afterwards"
 
@rebolek Don't give up, these are the moments of Zen. :-)
 
10:13 PM
i'm getting my cello, some playing, then bed
I'll watch what you cna come up with though
 
@graph You've gone again with something that is very briefly expressed in a RegEx. But not very literately expressed.
 
the very nature of RegEx is that it's brief
 
These aren't the common problems in parsing or matching. Real world tasks involve big ol' files full of XML and things RegEx is simply not capable of.
 
It's obviously THRU not TO.
 
nah
 
10:14 PM
:)
 
I can say parse "aaabb" [some "a" 2 "b"] and get back true, because some non-zero number of a's were followed by precisely two b's. And I get false with parse "aaabbb" [some "a" 2 "b"] because the parse position didn't reach the end of the input with that set of instructions.
 
regex is good except when the certain computer sciency reason applies where it doesnt work
like you can't regex html or something
but yours is more nerdy so there's that.
 
@graph And I can, if I so desire, say a-or-b-rule: ["a" | "b"] and then go parse "abababccc" [some a-or-b-rule 3 "c"] and get back true, because some number of instances of the rule a-or-b-rule was matched followed by precisely 3 c's.
 
well to illustrate, show me an example where regex sux
I can hear you guys working and scribbling hard from here
relax, you don't HAVE to do this
 
@graph "8 regular expressions you should know" (so that you know that it's basically Brainf**k, for patterns)
They're all bad. They're dissected as if you're learning, but your mind is being poisoned by it.
 
10:18 PM
ah hm well
 
Pretty page, wish Rebol had more designers like that, but the moral of the story is... you just got poisoned.
 
if you wanna match an email, this stuff exists in various forms ready for copy an paste
but that's difficult stuff since there's so many possibilities
you know I need a tool for checking out a logfile
 
@graph We don't even have to! my-email: brian@hostilefork.com.
Email addresses are first class symbols in the language.
Sure we can parse them, but why?
 
yea like "h" for "hello world"
 
@graph I wouldn't put those things in the same category. We know we use dates a lot, there are standards for it just like for floating point.
 
10:20 PM
I admire you for having your username == your domainname == something you like and have registered and own
 
@graph I also own briandickens.com, but note what it says. :-)
 
@HostileFork yea i was j/k
is that what you look like? Google image search, first hit?
 
@graph How would I know what you see on Google as the first image search?
 
google personalizes stuff but why and how would google decide to show me something personalized for a name I was not associated with before?
infact google should know what we 2 are chatting and show me your pic without even asking lol
 
@graph I'm speaking in mechanical terms, you know it could just look at your IP address and show you a picture of a big monster or something but show everyone else an alcoholic white cartoon dog.
This is what learning programming and" the Matrix" (as metaphor) is about. But if you want to know what I look like, I am not a black R&B music manager. That is someone else. :-)
 
10:24 PM
I know, they personalize, but have no reason to show me somethign different based on my preferences unless there's a lets say singer with your name and google knows I'm a big fan of him
ok back on topic
 
@graph I run the Austin C/C++ Meetup, just FYI.
 
nice how did you get to do that?
I wanna run a meetup for my favourite but still obscure javascript framework, how do I get started
 
@graph Previous organizer thought I'd be good for the job, it's been around for 6-7 years or whatever. Now I'm leaving so I have to pick my replacement(s), I've got ideas... it's a tough call.
 
what do you guys talk about?
do you have speakers and such?
 
@graph Well, make a meetup account I guess. It costs money to make a group, which is annoying and there are free alternatives, but in some sense it does keep the riffraff out. Sort of.
 
10:30 PM
oooh there's a woman in your meetup. gratz
 
@graph Yes, we do. We hosted Bjarne Stroustrup in fact. Kind of not sure how to top that one. :-)
"My work here is done."
 
with kerninghan/ritchie :)
 
We have a few women.
@graph Bringing back the dead... well I guess that would be more impressive.
 
oh they're dead, didnt know that
so what's he like? And how much money does the whole thing cost, usually?
 
Dennis Ritchie is dead.
 
10:32 PM
and how much do speakers cost to invite?
 
zero dollars and zero cents. We're egalitarian.
And there was free pizza. :-)
In this case, IEEE Austin paid for his hotel and what-not.
I think.
They at least drove him around.
 
one day you'll be the star at the Rebol meetup
 
@graph Ha, I got invited to give a talk at a fairly influential hacker group, it will be in March
I wish Carl were more hyped about all this.
 
a hacker group that influences something?
never heaerd of that one :)
 
@graph You are... kidding, right?
 
10:36 PM
I'm..mabe not knowledgeable hm
which group?
 
@graph Anonymous? 2600? Chaos Computer Club? Wikileaks? Ring any bells?
 
yea ok
 
Morpheus? Trinity? :-P
 
^^
so...a talk about rebol, cool
 
@graph Yup, looking forward to giving it.
 
10:39 PM
I cant attendthough, I'm in germany
 
@graph But the last time I went to a F'in industry thing, it was the holiday party, and admission was like 3 canned goods or whatever and it was an open bar, so free drinks.
And after a few drinks I was like "okay, forget it" and when people asked me what I did I said I was from a company called "coupeduppp.com"
My pitch was that there are those websites which track how reliable the coupon codes are for discounts on websites, and how often they work...
But at coupeduppp, we help you sort out the ambiguity by rating those sites for accuracy.
 
Here is another use case for comparing Rebol PARSE DSL and regex. Here are the rules for parsing an IP address:

Rebol
-----
digit5: charset "012345"
digit: union digit5 charset "6789"
byte: ["2" 2 digit5 | "1" 2 digit | 2 digit | digit]
ip-address: [3 [byte "."] byte]

Regex
-----
/^(?:(?:25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?)\.){3}(?:25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?)$/
3
 
thats not a real thing though right ? you made that up to mess with the recruiters
so what's that thing supposed to regex @DocKimbel? an IP adress?
 
@graph And the programmers, and everyone, because I get so tired of their BS. I'd made $800K by the time I was 25 and then went to the next levels and didn't care about money anymore. I want to see the world fixed, I'm out of the matrix, and this is one of the nice things about much of the Rebol community is we all feel a bit "woken up"
 
@graph Yes, an IP address.
 
10:43 PM
@DocKimbel Heh, you either see it or you don't...
It's like those magic eye posters.
 
for that I would have to look up the exact specs anyway, and find the regex in some forum @DocKimbel but in general this is a good example where regexes get difficult, true
how did you make 800k @HostileFork?
 
I got the regex from here.
 
@graph Microsoft stock options, from back in the day.
 
nice
 
I was making 6 figures too, but I was kind of burning through that just by lifestyle at the time.
Obviously I have to live more humbly now. :-)
 
10:45 PM
you need a worthwhile project
to put your numerous skills into
 
My apartment is about 600 sq. ft. in total. And the floor isn't real wood, that's vinyl. So... yeah.
Modest.
 
.oO Music!
 
@HostileFork I see you applied your design skills to your apartment too, very nice place!
 
yea it's tidy
what about that website, do you do any educational stuff? or plan to?
 
@HostileFork thanks, I like doing a little reblet every now and then... plus this one is really useful for me, so its not wasted time.
 
10:50 PM
0
Q: R2, R3 Different result for ALSO

JinaThis code returns -1 for R3 and +1 for R2. I'd like to know what I am doing wrong. f: func [][ also return 1 return -1 ] f

 
I have friends who are such better musicians than me it's not funny.
I'm loving this feed thing, @rgchris.
Good job.
Oh, I guess that's a question. But the point remains. Good job. :-)
(@graph that thing that didn't impress you gives us the newest answers, which Stackoverflow does not offer as a feed)
@graph I'm not feeling very well these days so I don't know which of my dreams will be finished or not in this lifetime.
 
@HostileFork I did not understand that
 
Not that worried about it, though.
 
I tell ya the brain needs some rest at night
the song is pretty nice, I played with my cello along
usually I am not into random music that people recommend but this is totally listentoable
 
@graph Oh, you were not very impressed when I showed you the brief and elegant code that @rgchris had written which was integrated with the StackOverflow API to get us the latest answers... it was pretty and you said "no sale" (or similar).
 
10:56 PM
oh
 
It's very old, primitive tools, that's from well over a decade ago when I worked at Microsoft and jammed with a coworker.
 
"no sale" was to the whole Rebol thing in general, and half serious
 
You can hear how totally "general MIDI" the drums are :-)
 
I just glanced over the code, not wanting to grok yet another syntax
 
So I guess 4 upvotes to @Jina's question and the "permission to chat here" thing should be settled?
 
10:57 PM
these JS frameworks sure all invent their own stuff
 
@graph wrt your questions with PARSE, many examples given which make regExp seem better are actually useless "academic" patterns. in the real life, I currently make a living off of PARSE 50% of the time and I can say that I'd NEVER want to have to maintain a 100MB regExp rule. I actually have such a PARSE rule and it can extract stuctured grammar text at a rate of 20000 words a second on a 500% laptop, using a single thread. :-)
 
@earl I upvoted, just need 2 more, what's the holdup?
 
@HostileFork 2 more, to get to 4 upvotes.
 
how do you make a living of PARSE?
 
@graph How do you make a living off a swiss army knife?
You can carry it in your pocket regardless.
 
10:59 PM
@HostileFork That's actually a good question, given a swiss army knife is lying next to me ...
 
We have a lot of work to do, don't think any of us here are under any delusions.
 
I dont even master the tools that I got, gimme a break lol
 
(j/k)
 
I'm glad I got what I got
 
Well I am under delusions, but not that one.
 
11:00 PM
@graph I do semantic information extraction out of arbitratry input text.
 
how well does that work by now?
 
@graph Brilliantly. :-)
 
interesting
and scary since this is one of the tools that will make everyone transparent
 
I tell you the names of people given in any text, create automatic resumes, extract the list of all concepts (at multiple levels) and even automatically categorize a text, based solely on its content, with no reference taxonomy :-)
 
@graph I think it's a really fine line to get your head around, because of the stage Rebol is at, where it's just weirdly hyper-intelligent and mature, but hasn't been bound up to the practical needs of what people are doing every day. It's not far from being bound thusly. It's just that the people working on it have been so lost in the ether that they haven't come down to Earth very often.
 
11:03 PM
stuff like that... 20kb of text with all passes returned in a second over a webserver that is also 100% REBOL
 
But here you have the great pragmatists... @earl, @GrahamChiu, @rgchris ...
And then @BrianH and I will argue about something ridiculous for comic relief.
 
funny, I've been living off of REBOL for several years, I only do real commercial work with it... so I can say that it is a great "real world" practical language.
 
1
A: Why does ALSO usage lead to different results in R2 and R3?

LadislavThat is already listed as a bug in R3. The correction is on the way, AFAIK.

1
A: Why does ALSO usage lead to different results in R2 and R3?

earlYou are doing nothing wrong; unfortunately you are tripped up by a known bug in R3. Basically, the also incorrectly "eats up" the return. Fortunately, we have a fix for this forthcoming. (If you want to help with testing, have a look at my fix-unwind-passing I hope we'll have this fix done and in...

 
very intersting
 
Greetings @user2097452 -- as I always must, I speak for the room when I apologize for the little "20 points to chat" barrier. Not our policy, blame StackOverflow! Anyway, here's our FAQ... do some questions or answers and "help us help you"
 
11:06 PM
I'm sort of a rare Reboler in this regard... its actually my daily bread and butter. Lately, I've been interfacing managed code using R2 with C++/CLI. its extremely stable.
 
in particularly I'm curious what kinds of "concepts" even exist in any texs
but I gotta go now
time for bed
amazing chat, thanks and I hope I see you awesome guys soon!
 
@graph TTYS!
 
"I'm curious" is a concept
so is an "amazing chat" ;-)
 
C'mon folks, @Jina has 18 points. Would it kill you to upvote?
After that no freebies, it's just the captcha.
 
@HostileFork just did
 
11:08 PM
@moliad did your REBOL program tell you that? :)
upvoted
 
@Jina You're in! Except... there's a delay usually, caching and such... the chat servers are a different subdomain. :-/ You will also find that setting your avatar has a delay. Again, see the FAQ
 
I think I broke the terms of service of Stackoverflow, by abusing the voting system
 
@graph Well, I think it's a fine question, and I think they're abusing us by not letting us bring people into the fold. I bountied a bunch of points on the meta question of allowing room owners to whitelist sub 20 rep users.
And they didn't... do... anything... despite the fifty-some-odd upvotes on that question asked by someone else that I bountied... because...
They've got this little idea that if someone won't push the "ask question" or "answer question" button and play ball they don't want to let them chat. I see what they're getting at.
 
oh the humanity!!!
 
I still think it could be done better.
 
11:12 PM
Hi guys, thanks for sneaking me in
 
they do do a pretty good job though, overall!?
 
@Jina Hello Jina. Who are you?
(I don't know the name from Rebol history, I guess)
@graph SO far, SO good. (pun not originally intended, but then edited to be intentional.)
 
@graph the q(?!u) translates to Parse dialect as #"q" not #"u" skip
 
Was following earlier conversation on RegEx vs PARSE. Wanted to say that PARSE is unlikely ever to win a brevity competition. Not sure if speed is easily measurable between (say) Perl RegExs and REBOL PARSEs.
 
@graph Ladislav is like, a math genius, bringing formalism to Rebol for many years, and pretty much always right.
And no better way to show how right you are than by embracing my logo paradigm. Are you with me? :-P j/k
@Jina Have you seen my REBmu? I'm going to win the brevity competition if it kills me. :-)
 
11:19 PM
@graph (.).*\1{2} translates to Parse dialect as set c skip 2 c
 
@Ladislav Use double asterisks **foo** for code as in foo, you can edit. (for two minutes, up arrow for most recent message, hover and use triangle at left for earlier)
 
Also skimmed some of the parse vs. regex discussion, it's tricky to compare them—regex is very succinct in what it does, but can get cryptic awful quickly. It's certainly hard to build anything of structure in and of itself—it'd need a lot of help.
 
@Jina there is no point in being brief when what you're looking at is so obscure it can't even be understood two hours after its been written. I've done a fair share of regExp in python (cause I had too) and it was painfully not fun. and It was just menial stupid stuff like matching file patterns. I woudn't dare do real text analysis using regExp... I think I'd commit suicide.
2
 
Anyone claiming RegExp is good technology, should check with his psychiatrist :-)
 
@moliad Was not complaining. Just wanted to point out that minimal keystrokes is not always a rebol strong point.
 
11:23 PM
@Jina sometimes you have to choose between brevity and readability
 
@pekr "Technology is a word that means 'magic'. It's basically anything really cool that you don't understand how it works, and when it breaks, you have to buy a new one..."
 
0
A: How do I perform benchmark comparisons on a series of functions in Rebol?

AdrianIn Changes to high resolution time in R3, Carl Sassenrath described the improved (over Rebol 2) timer in Rebol 3. You can obtain a timestamp through stats/timer that has a resolution of a few microseconds. To measure a time delta, use delta-time as shown below, but see the blog post about accurac...

 
ah, but did you realize that you never have to click on the "shift" key in Rebol? ;-)
 
Jina - surely not, even good Lary Wall (author of Lisp) claimed in one interview, that Rebol has too many of a punctuation :-)
ah, I meant - author of Perl ...
 
@moliad "Never" only until you use a non-US keyboard :)
 
11:25 PM
earl - well, I use non-us keyboard for ages, for brackets I have to use alt+ some key, and never felt it being a problem :-)
 
@Jina I'd agree here: I wrote a parse rule for matching URLs in text based on a regex script. For brevity, they don't compare, but note how awful Regex looks when you try to break it down to explain it.
 
I very much like coming back to my English keyboard layouts whenever I had to work in non-customisable settings with German ones (AltGr necessary for []). Coding so much is actually one of the reasons I prefer the US layout :)
 
@Jina anyway, do you have another Rebol community alias or are you "new"?
 
@HostileFork fairly new these days. did dabble a little once before.
 
@earl We (Pekr and myself) have to use AltGr as well, I do not like switching keyboards being an equivalent of you always using the German one
 
11:28 PM
@Jina I ignored it for some time, it was the open sourcing that got me back in.
I'm actually disproportionately evangelistic for my experience level, but, let's just let that slide ok.
 
posted on February 21, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Fix submitted: https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/92

 
If you guys don't tell anyone, I won't tell anyone.
@earl glad you fixed that.
But how long until it's integrated... oh... the humanity.
 
Great! Now I can start finding another one! :)
 
@rebolek Please do :)
 
@rebolek I independently found it in this here chat.
 
11:32 PM
@rgchris (and others) I'd rather write a PARSE than a RegEx. RSI better than brainstrain.
3
 
@Jina Amen.
 
In general and @all: more comprehensive tests for basic PARSE functionality would be very much welcome!
 
@earl I feel like the Red tests could work for lots of Rebol too.
(not that they have parse tests, I'm just saying, why don't we... unify the test frameworks?)
@BrianH is all about "these tests were handcrafted" and that's nice and whatever, but I vote for more fuzz, because fuzz catches things you didn't know you didn't know.
Let's have both.
 
@HostileFork If you add fuzz-testing, it'd be very much welcome.
 
@earl Well my idea of "adding fuzz testing" would be sitting down with Peter and you and making a unified test suite.
And @Ladislav
If some tests are flagged red only, ok. If some are rebol only, ok.
But that parse regression was... in a word.. "lame".
Oh, that's a string! :-P
 
11:38 PM
@HostileFork Well, if you can't live with breakage happening, you can't touch anything at all.
 
@earl You can if what you're touching is already broken.
 
It's fixed, and tested for.
We'll need more test coverage for PARSE, because the implementation is relatively finnicky.
 
@earl Well I'm not getting on your case, or anything, but I am saying fuzz testing needs to be part of the equation and I think Rebol and Red should have a common test structure. I don't think that means I have a cabbage for a head and need to get looked at all sideways.
 
@HostileFork also, how would your "sitting with us" help preventing such a situation to occur? I can tell you what would help: if you wrote some tests that are missing (for example traversing the CureCode database) or using any other strategy
 
@HostileFork Again, fuzz testing would be lovely to have. I would gladly assist anyone who wants to get it going.
 
11:41 PM
@Ladislav Well I've got a bit of a straw man argument because I'm proposing using Red's framework and strategy, but they don't even have parse, so... yeah... ummm I'm trying to make a point in the moment about something that doesn't even exist, kind of untenable.
But my gist is saying we pull the whole thing together, in a hybrid, and this thing that does not currently exist would have stopped that kind of problem.
If you accept that this thing that does not exist should exist.
 
@HostileFork It wouldn't have had stopped that kind of problem.
If someone writes a PARSE fuzzer, that could have stopped that kind of problem.
 
@earl I don't feel like it right now but I could write a parse fuzz tester that would have caught that without explicitly looking for that one bug.
 
@HostileFork "proposing using Red's framework" - can you summarize the reasons why do you find it so much better to require us to throw away the framework design actually outlined by Carl?
 
@Ladislav Yours, Red's, it doesn't matter. Same tests matters.
 
That's hardly realistic, at this point in time, though.
 
11:46 PM
Aha, so you do not mind if we keep the test framework, you mind us to merge the test suites?
 
@Ladislav Yup.
 
...and why don't you volunteer to do it?
 
But rebol-test's format is pretty easy to generate. Someone could certainly try to hack up Peter's/Red's Quick-Test to, instead of running the tests, emit a rebol-test compatible test suite.
 
@Ladislav I just might, after the r3 port of red passes the 15,000 or whatever the hell tests. But I promised @GrahamChiu a WebOS port.
 
@earl I will :) I actually have one bug that crashes Rebol. I'm looking into CureCode right now if it wasn't reported already.
 
11:50 PM
Still you guys can probably hack out what I'm doing much faster. I'm just trying not to bother you.
 
what is the count of tests they are using now?
 
@Ladislav I'm not at that computer.
 
Aha, looks big
Who wrote the tests?
 
Peter Wood
 
Prolific
 
11:51 PM
Well it's fuzz testing, the tests are generated by code...
 
Roughly 12'000 of the tests are fuzzed ("automatically genereated").
 
Mostly, but it depends on the test, there are just regular tests too.
 
Mainly for integer, byte, float, float32 operations. Some for general maths.
 
@Ladislav There's whitebox testing, it will "DO" the lexer, and then basically run stuff that's kind of like a bunch of external asserts.
But right now the pain in the butt for me, that I am slacking on because I kind of like recruiting... is the fuzz.
 
14'846 tests in the Red and Red/System test suite. (My previous number was based on an older test suite.)
4'601 in the rebol-test suite.
 
11:55 PM
@Ladislav I don't know if you've followed the gruelling details of the things like the hashing symbol name bug, or the tag equality comparison, or whatever that I can only decipher through hexdumps and stupid amounts of time. It's no wonder I prefer to drink and chat, because that stuff SUCKS.
And I actually have fun ideas for what to do with Rebol.
I'm refusing to let myself do it.
Because I know there is no one else who's going to do what I'm doing.
I accept it... and move on.
 

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