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12:12 AM
@HostileFork you asked who had access to Rebol code prior to opensourcing: I had access to code I wrote and to a couple of buggy arithmetic code parts Carl wanted me to fix
 
@Ladislav Yup, saw your name...was just wondering if anyone else ever edited the C code.
@Ladislav How's it going? Saw your documentation changes, cool. As long as you're doing that, someone should mention that reduce/into doesn't work unless you pass it a block to reduce... e.g. foo: [] reduce/into 2 foo probe foo
Or change the behavior, which I'd prefer.
 
1:15 AM
@rgchris Hey, I just tried your feed url and am getting Bad Request, are you tinkering with it now?
It was working as of the last answer (above) :-)
 
No—it only works for SO's spider.
 
1:33 AM
@rgchris Oh... ok.
 
Sorry.
At least for the period of evaluation.
 
I would say "Hey, but what if someone wants to subscribe to the feed in their feed reader of choice" but this is good because it's more incentive to come check in on chat. :-)
 
It takes a few seconds to refresh, so expensive to do for more than one client. I may write to a static file so as to be generally available.
 
@rgchris Ah.
Your code formatter is super nifty. I think it's a great way to make Rebol look good.
 
A different way to view XML (or Json).
@HostileFork Thks! :)
 
1:45 AM
@rgchris Wow. Kickass.
We aren't going to know what to do with all the attention Rebol is going to get once things get a little more... orderly
Gotta clean house before the guests show up.
@rgchris I think having something like this XML/JSON stuff standardized in the distribution is important. Everyone should pretty much be encouraged to use the same, vetted, best one. This is one advantage to Rebol's lateness...
 
Yep, sad to say—competent JSON and XML handlers should be very close to the interpreter from the point of download.
 
2:04 AM
@rgchris I didn't realize you had both a DOM and a flattened Rebol representation in one library until today. That is win.
Of the random stuff that ships in the core, like currency arithmetic or whatever, this is more important to get right.
 
@rgchris, I have a use for your XML parser, but might need to tweak things, experimental stuff. Are you up for some feedback?
 
@HostileFork The main focus of the DOM is extraction, I hadn't really gone fully into load → edit → save. There's a lot that can be added.
@BrianH :) — see previous statement.
I can put it somewhere (GitHub?) where it can be edited.
 
@HostileFork surely, I was not the only one writing something in C, but that does not mean I saw any code except the code I actually wrote. Regarding the reduce/into case - this looks like something that should be written at the doc page in the function dictionary. I am not sure it can fit into the function spec (there are size limitations as I was told by BrianH)
 
@rgchris Please do. I'll just fork it and do pull requests.
I might have to change the data model (not assuming yet, but I might). Just a heads up. I'll try to keep it pretty, and ask you for advice. If that doesn't work for you, then you don't need to accept my stuff.
 
@BrianH is there actual solid reasoning behind the reduce/into behavior? It seems pretty random to me.
 
2:14 AM
Well, there's a solid reasoning for the behavior of reduce/into, but there isn't necessarily a solid reasoning for the behavior of reduce of anything other than a block. I haven't really gone over the code yet, because my excuse for doing so got handled by Andreas instead. This could be another excuse.
 
@BrianH I just think if the thing you're reducing isn't a block, you put it /into the other block anyway...
Seems simple enough.
 
But you've had some good reasons for why what I think should happen doesn't happen in the past, so worth asking.
 
The /into part is the only part I had input on so far. The rest is a carryover from R2. It looks like unifying the behavior in the fallback case would be a good idea, if it is at all possible. The way /into is implemented for reduce is likely very block-oriented, but there might be a clean hack for that.
 
@BrianH I don't mind if the data model is different. I've had my reasons for doing it the way I have thus far, but I imagine there'll be benefits from having it be a collaborative effort—if the price is the data model, so be it.
 
2:19 AM
I'm more familiar with the compose/into code, which would need the same fix. I'll start the experiments with compose.
 
So I was thinking more about my pad idea as a native, and thought a good refinement would be something that lets you say how big you want to pad up to. This way you could say for instance pad/length #{324C} #{00} 4 and get #{0000324C} (for instance).
I don't know if length is the right name for the refinement, but I bring this up for a reason. The reason is I believe that the only correct and proper default variant of to binary! for things like integers/etc. is to give you back a binary that is only as big as it needs to be.
 
Seriously, mock it up in Rebol first, like I did with reword. The behavior is more important than the implementation. We can improve the implementation later.
 
Negative numbers are a problem. Maybe a single leading FF would cue it. But I guess the point is that future proofing this needs to be done a certain way.
This has been a real pain and it would be a shame to have it happen again on 128-bit architectures or whatever.
 
If you are going to have one function named pad, it's going to need to be flexible. That kind of flexibility is tricky to design correctly - just look at split. If necessary, we can hammer it out in CC. That worked for a lot of other functions.
 
I think integer! needs to be a bignum anyway.
With optimizations for cases when it's small enough to fit into a register-size, but I would assume there are bignum libraries that already do this optimization
 
2:25 AM
You are seriously underestimating how much bignums suck without hardware support.
 
Like I said, only if you're out of band of a hardware integer...you'll pay a little to check that bit
Not out of range, not much price to pay
I'm sure the other languages which have bignums built in must do this
 
We should have bignums, but not for integer!. Our base integer type needs to be predictably fast. We have to hand-optimize things in Rebol, remember, we don't have a compiler. The performance characteristics for bignums are so different that we really want to make sure we want to use them before we use them. We could even have humbers, for that matter.
 
Anyway, like I said, it's been easily about 1/3 of the Red port dealing with the size of to binary! for integer changing
 
Most other languages that have bignums either require you to choose them explicitly, or don't care about performance, or are for scientific applications that have completely different performance requirements. Even cryptographers use merely large fixed-length numbers, not standard variable-length bignums.
 
So I'd want a consistent strategy. to binary! giving you the same number of bytes for an integer. Maybe with a leading byte that's either #{00} or #{FF}, and then light wrappers can make sense out of it for your purpose.
Largest 32-bit negative number going to binary! as five bytes with a leading #{FF} isn't the end of the world. Ditch it. Small numbers you could pad quickly with a native.
But I think the thing is, if you're turning integers into binaries, you're probably doing something very specific with an encoding.
 
2:34 AM
We need a consistent strategy for binary conversions, but to isn't it. We need something more powerful, where you can specify output formats. The to function is the lowest common denominator for values of "lowest" that we can't assume will include different major Rebol versions or integer sizes.
 
Giving people the tools to be as specific as they need to be is better than picking some arbitrary length for it. What's wrong with either lead with #{00} or #{FF} and then as many bytes as you need? I guess that the edge case of zero should be #{0000}. But I dunno, would have to think about that.
Zero being neither positive nor negative is perhaps worth calling attention to the case, maybe even as #{} so you aren't checking the high byte and thinking you're getting the "sign" in that case.
 
No problem with that. We just can't do it with to - it's one value and one datatype in, one value out. If you need flexibility, you aren't going to get it from to.
 
@BrianH But that's my point, one value in one value out, no options.
The only sane choice of how much to pad comes from the nature of the number -- not the nature of the architecture
Then give people nice pad tools, because they're going to need them anyway
I have no objection to things like to-binary-32 and to-binary-64 or to-binary-8 even being in the mezzanine
They'll be easy to write if the to-binary follows my rules here.
Hey, @Sunanda! Hi!
 
Hi!
 
@Sunanda See the FAQ for some info, among other things, like how StackOverflow as-of-recently lets you have a non-gravatar avatar and you can just set it in your user info.
 
2:45 AM
Thanks...But I'm happy with a default avatar.
 
I am OK with to binary! generating a architecture/type-specific fixed length, because size matters for many more reasons than just to. Integer limits matter, overflow behavior matters. It's nice that to fixes endianness, but I really don't expect a 64bit integer to generate the same sized binary as a 32bit integer. And it's just as easy to make efficient platform-specific versions of those other functions that externally behave in the same manner regardless of platform.
Still, I don't think to is the solution for binary conversions. We need to hold out for something else.
 
@Sunanda Aww. But what about building up "the Sunanda(TM) brand"? :-)
 
I always preferred that "anonymous shopper" chic
 
Anyway, what's up?
@Sunanda Chris made this pretty awesome stackoverflow answers-tagged-Rebol RSS feed thing. We subscribed the room to it so whenever there's an answer it just pops in here. For example, this one just a while ago
 
That's cool!
 
2:51 AM
@Sunanda Note that I'm using the StackOverflow chat reply functionality, it's the little arrow in the right when you hover over the chat message you want to reply to. Then you can follow a somewhat disjointed conversation. It makes it beep at the person but if that annoys you there's a little speaker icon up by the room name on the top right.
 
@HostileFork Ah, I see, thanks.
 
Also note that you can edit what you wrote (or delete it) for two minutes. Pressing the up arrow will let you edit the last thing you said without hovering and using the little drop-down-triangle on the left (that offers things like the permalink to that particular message, etc.)
More organic than AltME, but rather rich in feature set...including a mobile app...and when you roll a pretty good search box into the mix it offers different advantages. It's not, as @BrianH points out constantly, a good means for archival development discussion. But it's a pretty good water cooler.
We just have to know when something has crossed the lines from "chat" to real "discussion" and move elsewhere, but this is how I feel about knowing when a question belongs on the Q&A site instead of just being some rambling organic babble here.
 
It doesn't have one of the major problems that AltME has: In AltME, you can't move a message to another topic when it's off topic. Here, we don't have topics, everything is all jumbled together in one stream, so having to move messages isn't a problem because there's nowhere to move it :-/ On the plus side, we have a few minutes to edit our typos and finish our thoughts, so that's great :)
 
@Sunanda What I really want is to lower the activation barrier for people who want to learn Rebol, and make sure they have a "online sales reps are here to talk to you now" kind of guidance...because the moment they click on rebol.com , all is lost... (for now)
 
Sounds cool. Good to have greeters at all gateways :)
 
3:01 AM
So we just sit here and ramble as we need to ramble anyway, and then the chat room shows activity, and then people stop by... and we stop talking about whatever esoteric thing we were talking about for a little bit while we pitch them... and maybe they come back.
What I've been struggling to do is port Red to R3.
Which involves a lot of things that are actually not the easiest for my skill set, such as...looking at Red and its test suite for the first time, learning fringe weirdness between R2 and R3, patching (or isolating, and asking others to patch) R3 bugs discovered in the process.
Can be a bit demoralizing, compared to stuff that would be actually a lot more fun.
Doing it because I think it's important, though.
 
@HostileFork You've got a good set of challenges to work on there. I'm mainly trying to do some stuff in R2.
 
@Sunanda Heresy. :-) We have a lot of things we want to do with R3. Have you seen repl.it ?
 
@HostileFork :) .... I guess I'm writing applications rather than the nextgen developer tools. Not seen repl.it. You intend to port Try REBOL to it?
 
@Sunanda One of us is going to try, I'm forcing myself to spend all my cycles on the Red port until it passes the whole test suite, and chat is my indulgence when I'm too frustrated by it. Not allowing myself to touch any other code unless in service of that goal.
Fun later.
It solves so many problems... no session management... user writes an infinite loop? They hang their own browser...
Someone who will not be named pegged my VPS typing an infinite loop in my Try Rebol, I got a phone call about it.
It didn't even do inter-statement session preservation, ran a new Rebol each time. It was just an experiment.
This'll make all that go away
 
@HostileFork I remember trying to break Try REBOL that way once - so maybe it was me :(
 
3:15 AM
No worries. :-)
My point is just that it'll be great. We'll have lots of Try Rebol scripts. "Know Ruby? Do this path..." "Know JavaScript? Do this path..."
The Rebolution will not be Televised. But it will be on YouTube.
 
@HostileFork Interesting presentation (which I've only quickly skimmed)
 
@Sunanda Subtitled by one of our StackOverflow chat random drop-ins... young guy in India.
 
@HostileFork I recognized the name from AltME :)
 
Rebol has to "open up" more than just the code. Has to get on the web. This chat isn't perfect, still think their 20 point barrier is an annoying speedbump, but it's more or less like an "invite" system because it only takes 4 of us to upvote a good question or 2 of us to upvote a good answer.
They just want people to have gone through the motions of using the site, a kind of "tutorial".
But it rubs some people the wrong way.
 
@HostileFork REBOL has suffered from living behind gated communities, so experimenting to find other channels is always a good idea.
2
 
3:33 AM
@Sunanda It's nice to have people showing up here and participating, I'm pleased we're getting more critical mass and that the value is being seen. It gives us more of a presence, there's some good word of mouth. I posted @rgchris's StackOverflow feed API thing to the admins and moderators...and when you've got something that clean and powerful, people are going to take notice.
It's just a matter of time.
The main thing--the big block right now--is integration rate, and I think the writing is on the wall about that.
 
@HostileFork It's interesting times. (Now I gotta go. Been good to chat).
 
@Sunanda TTYL, please return. :-)
 
3:49 AM
@HostileFork, let me know if you want to check out cloud9's collaborative editing
 
@Adrian It took too long and now I don't remember my password. :-P But okay
Let me... try and get it going.
 
use the public account I made
colaborebol/simplicity
 
@Adrian I'm doing the retreival, holdon.
@Adrian Logged in as me. What do I do?
 
well, go to my workspace - c9.io/adrians/fandango
 
4:06 AM
It's an interesting idea, glad people figured out how to put Rebol on it.
 
you just wget it
 
Well needed a 64-bit build or whatever, I mean.
 
forgot about that, yeah
Don't know if you saw on gtalk, I was asking you about a script for which a link was posted here (I think) - do you recall it?
 
@Adrian Have you thought about working out what you think the "sales pitch" is? I've mentioned my puzzlement about how to "sell" Rebol and I've decided it needs multiple paths, not a one-size-fits-all approach. Because if you start telling Lisp people about code-as-data they'll be bored and yawn... but if someone doesn't know about that it really is where you have to start.
I was thinking that the real tutorial will be an encapped Rebol script inside a repl.it build, and it would ask you questions to decide how to teach you.
@Adrian Anything that has been "starred" you can filter down: starred posts
 
Take a look at 4clojure.com. People seem to like it for a gradual entry/tutorial for Clojure. The site is OS - maybe we could adapt that as a start.
 
4:12 AM
You want the build dialect
 
yeah, that was it
Kept on thinking it was something to do with bind, not build.
 
 
2 hours later…
KK.
5:59 AM
@HostileFork If someone asked something on here chat, would it be a bad thing to ask the same thing on SO? If you think the question I asked yesterday was worthy of being asked as a proper question, can you tell pekr to ask it?
 
@KK. You could ask it, and pekr could answer it... if he was willing to "play ball" (English idiom)... two upvotes and he could chat. :-/ I don't know how to convince him though.
Community organizing is difficult, but projects succeed or fail based on the community
It's not all about technology, history has taught us this!
 
@KK. what is being suggested is that knowledge be captured in SO questions to act as institutional knowlege. But if the information is readily elsewhere, I would suggest it reflects a lack of research on the behalf of the person asking the question.
And so they might get marked down .. but can you get marked down with a score of 1 ?
 
@GrahamChiu I think KKs question was an example of crossing over into the formulation of new questions that are valid and answerable, non-trivial... his previous one about reduce was too... we don't want the questions to be too basic (RebolTutorial kind of burned us a little on that, sometimes, I still think he helped more than hurt).
Funny story: the day I quit AltME was when there was all this hate talk on RebolTutorial who was working hard to establish a rebol presence and had lots of enthusiasm, and then the straw that broke that camel's back was when Ladislav started griping about this question I asked. I respect him so I was like: "et tu, Ladislav?"
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu I understand. Thats what we have chat for. I just thought if it was an acceptable question, then why not make pekr ask/answer it and then he can chat with us here.. There are lots and lots and lots of questions on the same topic in other languages.
 
I'm like: you should thank reboltutorial for his enthusiasm not vilify him, and how are you ever going to channel new energy into this project when you're all hiding in this archaic hidden message system, and by the way I'm pretty F'in smart so when you complain about ME you just crossed a line...
(it wasn't a big complaint, but it was a complaint, and I was in a bad mood because of the rest of it)
Anyway, that was years ago. 8-Nov-2010, in fact.
Much of what I was asking for at the time has since happened.
So I'm cool if other people are cool.
@KK. Just a little history of the soap opera, programmers can be prima donnas (another idiom, though not English, used in English)
@KK. Also I have been asked to provide the Red subtitle file to someone who speaks Dutch, I think there is a translation effort underway.
 
6:16 AM
@HostileFork Don't know what Ladislav's gripe is - that's on my wish-to-do list, has been for years. Even have a semantic model in mind.
 
KK.
@HostileFork If there is an effort, then its great! A good thing about amara.org is that its as simple as logging in to your google account :-)
 
@BrianH Well I'm in a calmer mindset and people are here talking on StackOverflow instead of acting like I have a cabbage for a head, so maybe we can discuss it more rationally now. He also likes the logo and embraced it for his avatar. So I think we're doing better.
There's a bit more respect all around these days, I feel like after the open sourcing and people getting to know each other the personality issues are getting sorted out.
@KK. It doesn't automatically put the subtitles on YouTube just because someone on amara does it. It only does it on amara...
I have to export and upload it under my account.
It's not difficult
 
KK.
@HostileFork Yes, but still, it is good enough for someone to just log on and work on the subtitles.
 
Well I didn't know if Doc wanted it on the Red channel or what, but he said under hostilefork was fine, otherwise I'd have had to send him a movie somehow...upload it...etc. But the guy who wrote me wanted me to put in links to DevCon and the original talk. I understand wanting the DevCon link, but to the original unwatchable talk... um... I know at least @GrahamChiu and I would suggest NOT showing that to people.
But I added the links anyway (though one has to "show more"), no point in arguing, better to give people what they want if it's all the same to you. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork For now, I think any content, let it be bad movies or silly questions etc. should be considered good content :-) Something is better than nothing
 
6:24 AM
@KK. @Adrian and I have been talking about going back over history and looking for people who have "bad" sites (or at least very outdated) and asking them to voluntarily take them down, or let us graphically redesign them. We have some problems though because there are new efforts that are... not about the "flock" or the "herd" I don't know what you would say in Hindi
For instance, this is very new and recent: Rebol Bazaar
I know I am "icy" and @earl and I argue over exactly which shade of gray to use on rebolsource.net But eventually he compromised and added the footnote about chmod +x. Anyway, we are a bit less "organic" in our approach. I don't think there's only one right answer, but it would help if people didn't actively try to make Rebol look insane.
 
KK.
I understand flock and herd. I do not think having bad looking sites is too much of a problem. On another note, I like the freebol design. :-)
 
@KK. That aesthetic is my proposed fallback if we find the Rebol name is too much of a liability. But if the name is a liability, I assure you we won't be picking "Freebol" for the string :-)
@KK. It's one of the reasons I surrendered all rights for the logo design to Rebol technologies... because either we keep the name and the logo or we do something new.
I think I nailed the Rebol logo; it's a nod to history, it's versatile. But just as I've kind of started to get a bit more of a vision of Red being the future, I think the Red logo has even more potential.
@KK. Much less time spent on Red...funny enough, I made a Rebol logo out of clay, have you seen it?
That took time. And I had to buy a bunch of clay. Fortunately I was working in an art store at the time, I got an employee discount. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork I too think the same. Red's logo is something people would wear on shirts, I hope. :-)
@HostileFork You are a versatile person. (I mean well-rounded etc.)
 
@KK. I like them both, I'll like the Red logo more when a professional does it, I'm at the point where I want to pay someone... I don't want to do it myself.
Do you know any icon artists who are good? Better-than-I-am good is a starting point of what I mean by "good"
I mean, professional.
I'm a top-tier amateur graphic designer, but I didn't exactly make the last Pixar movie, or design the icons for OS/X apps. Y'know?
I know enough to be dangerous, but what I don't know could fill libraries... I'm an engineer, not an artist.
I've pledged $400 to the Red icon design project, contingent on seeing the portfolio of the designer.
 
6:40 AM
@HostileFork I quite liked seeing @Reboltutorial 's questions ... gave me a chance to get some points!
 
@GrahamChiu Well a lot of people were pissed off at him, like "who does he think he is, asking questions". I dunno if you followed that period of ire.
 
@HostileFork quick SO question: Can you change which answer you pick long later, if a better answer comes along?
 
@BrianH Yuppers. Reputation score is adjusted accordingly.
 
@HostileFork Hmm. Don't recall seeing such discussion .. or perhaps I dismissed it as being silly
 
KK.
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu Sometimes people just don't like change. For example, I feel very, very awkward when things change in any way.
 
6:42 AM
@GrahamChiu While I defend RebolTutorial because I think Rebol has to appreciate noobs (and that noobs are tomorrow's experts), he did sort of have a "listening problem".
But never underestimate enthusiasm. Enthusiasm built the web, enthusiasm built Google and YouTube and everything you see. Don't kill it just because you're grumpy and old and think you know everything.
 
@HostileFork well, he did seem to progress slowly. But I was happy he had a website with tutorials ... and now it's gone
 
@GrahamChiu His SEO knowledge, at the time, was so much better than anything Rebol community had, he'd ranked himself up fast using modern techniques. And yes, now it's gone. And I blame the community for not being nicer to him.
It was worth working through the "listening problem" but apparently old dinosaurs think being smug about their knowledge is more important.. eh? :-P
(I don't mean you, @GrahamChiu)
The dinosaurs know who they are.
I think people with kids are just better teachers, in general. Not a 100% correlation but I see big humility and shift that parenting seems to inspire in people.
I kinda watched Bill Gates go through it, and in my opinion, he really grew as a person and changed his ways... you get a bigger perspective, I'm fairly proud of him now.
But we all have our tendencies.
 
@GrahamChiu Likewise! Don't think I'd have persevered with Twitter and subsequently OAuth if I hadn't been inspired by his fleeting endeavours.
 
@rgchris Well this is what I tried to tell people! Did he understand the language on day 1? No, he had massive misconceptions. And seemed to keep them longer than was reasonable. But he was passionate and that was a lens through which we could dissect those misconceptions...
1
Q: Can rebol parse function be able to create rules for parsing css2 / css3 fully?

Rebol TutorialAre there limitation to rebol parse function power ? Would it be capable of parsing the whole css2 / css 3 spec or will it encounter theorical impossibility to form some rules ? Update after HostileFork answer: I mean in regexp I think it would be rather impossible, is parse much more powerfull ...

 
6:58 AM
I looked at some of things he was doing and was a little shamed that Rebol wasn't ready to go on some basic mashup stuff.
@HostileFork I actually have a working CSS parser, just doesn't go anywhere yet :)
 
@HostileFork there was some comment made that there was a fine line between SEO and spam by you in 2009!
 
@GrahamChiu It's a fine line, but I think if we had something like this chat room back then we could've done a heck of a lot better with him.
 
and someone else said he didn't seem to read the answers we gave him ... but that seems the limit to what I can find on altme. Nothing really objectionable
 
@GrahamChiu He was definitely more of a "broadcaster" than a "receiver", I'll grant that.
 
@GrahamChiu At least those answers are still there if someone else were to happen across them.
 
7:03 AM
I guess I didn't realise what the answers were for!
 
@GrahamChiu Posterity. :-)
 
I thought they were to help him solve a problem .. and not to act as tutorials for others coming the same way
 
@GrahamChiu Far more people find the answers via google than the original questioner. Think about it.
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu I think it serves both purposes.
 
@KK. well, sometimes one only has time to do the one
 
KK.
7:05 AM
In most other languages, I have been led to SO by google more than I can remember.
 
@GrahamChiu If you're a moderator, and you go to close a question, there are a few buttons you get to push for your "rationale". One is duplicate, and you can't say duplicate without giving a link to the question it's a duplicate of.
 
I'd like to see only people with rep in that topic being able to down rate
 
@GrahamChiu But another close reason is "too localized" - I can't see this being interesting to anyone besides this person at this point in time. It's a waste of the Internet's bandwidth, basically.
@GrahamChiu There's total weirdness in that. There are things I can't do without rep in tags. I can't edit the rebol tag wiki without approval.
 
Only to this one person, and not the other 4 billion? I think that is far fetched and more of a judgement call with perhaps little to back it up
 
@GrahamChiu But I can vote to delete questions entirely and say someone's chat message is vandalism/spam. Yet I can't get a 1 rep user to be allowed to chat here. It makes... little sense sometimes.
It's like I can't do the things you would think should be easy, but have been disproportionately trusted with censorship power just because of being around a long time.
I think StackOverflow is trying to walk a certain balance on the "gated community" idea that has a rather weirdo dynamic which is more about empiricism than idealism.
 
7:11 AM
@HostileFork heh, I've been here longer than you :)
@HostileFork to me it borders on elitism
 
@GrahamChiu Yeah, it does get me irked.
 
Aww ... okay, back to the open altme project!
 
@GrahamChiu Noooo.
Let's learn how to be better consumers of disposable chat. It's a new way of learning how to "be". Dynamic, flow, it's good. It's therapeutic. Like chopping up trees.
Getting one's hands dirty.
 
we could add this chat as a feed into an openme channel
best of both worlds ( pun intended )
 
@GrahamChiu Did I show you the swan I made welding?
 
7:16 AM
Nope.
Glad you told me what it was!
 
I would assume that for you, an MD and programmer, chopping wood... it's all just a big crazy exploration. And molding things out of metal scraps with blowtorches, well, it's getting your hands dirty.
It's structurally sound, stands on its own. :-)
I thought of it as being like a multi-chambered heart, but I still saw it as bird-like
It has very interesting properties when you turn it, I gave it to a friend as a birthday present.
Funny story, I couldn't take the class at the community college without actually getting registered as a student.
 
If you had a makerbot you could give one to all your friends :)
 
I had to get a college transcript. My college didn't even remember I existed, they'd gone through some system transition :-)
I had to make some calls.
 
@HostileFork Reminds me of the story of some guy who failed to get into my medical school ... and so just started attending classes. Managed this for 3 years before he was discovered ... in the news a year or so ago.
 
So I'm in there with this Summa Cum Laude Cornell EE degree, trying to sign up for welding at community college.
It was a hassle.
Eventually, I get in.
 
7:22 AM
Cornell lost your academic records??
blame the IT dept
 
@GrahamChiu No, I didn't leave a forwarding address and they disabled my existence because I didn't want mail from them.
They harass you. I didn't want mail from them.
There's a price to that, they assume you're dead or something.
 
@HostileFork Of course .. they want donations
 
@GrahamChiu Yeah well, anyway, re-affirming your existence and getting them to acknowledge you're not dead involves telling them where you live now.
 
well, you could have used your parents' address
 
I usually do.
I move a lot.
 
7:25 AM
but this seems over the top just to do a community welding course
 
This was just something I hadn't taken into account.
@GrahamChiu It's an amazing shop, actually, great program -- great price.
When I was in LA I pleaded with everyone, go take a film class... you're totally not getting the whole experience if you don't at least take a week-long course...
 
@HostileFork Did you get referral credits?
 
Welding was awesome, and... heh, it's dangerous as all heck.
@GrahamChiu I quit going when Rebol got open sourced, and I wasn't feeling very well, my focus changed and haven't even opened the envelope for my grades. Even the worst case is fine, if I fail a community college welding course, I think I'll get over it. :-)
 
Quite useful skill ...
 
@GrahamChiu Well it's very Zen, and I draw the analogy to anything one does with one's hands such as with woodchopping... computers are different, and yeah I feel like I sort of want to dismiss doing it "that way" and go to nanofabricators or whatever.
@GrahamChiu In my Zen way, though, I think it's not good to limit your mind into just one paradigm.
 
7:31 AM
Hi guys, I finally have enough imaginary Internet points to say hello here.
3
 
@rebolek Hi bolek
 
@rebolek You can exchange them for cash at the front desk!
 
@HostileFork Sometimes I feel the impulse to say that Zen is the derivative of Ch'an Buddhism ... see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen#Chinese_Ch.C3.A1n
 
@rgchris: :)
 
@rebolek Points! With your StackOverflow rep and $4, you can buy a large coffee at Starbucks!
 
7:35 AM
@rebolek What's with the vertical raster line in your avatar?
 
Lightsaber?
 
@GrahamChiu It's a pole. It's actually in the picture. Maybe he's being hackerish to try and use real world objects to suggest an error in the image. :-)
Don't get me started, we could be here all night...
 
@HostileFork ah.. I thought it was a commentary on reality
@HostileFork And I thought he was Czech.
 
@GrahamChiu Heh. No Poles in Czechoslovakia. See, nothing lost on this mind. :-)
 
@HostileFork I was getting worried!
 
7:39 AM
@GrahamChiu I've been saying dumb things?
 
@rebolek .. do we have a tab panel yet in r3gui?
@HostileFork if you have, they passed me by
 
@GrahamChiu: Yes, it's a pole.
 
@GrahamChiu Well you didn't notice the reboltutorial witch hunt vibe, which did happen, I guess I could crack open AltME but even on stack there was less encouragement than I'd have liked.
 
@GrahamChiu: Yes, R3GUI has TAB-PANEL.
 
@rebolek Welcome, and I apologize for not knowing who you are, although I recognize the handle. I assume your name is not just a happy coincidence. :-)
 
7:43 AM
@rebolek Ok, thanks. I was looking for one or examples on how to use it .. guess I need to go thru the sources again
 
@HostileFork: My name is Boleslav, usually abbreviated to Bolek, so - rebolek. :)
@GrahamChiu: Henrik is now working on some examples for R3GUI, I also may add some for TAB-PANEL, as I should know this style best.
 
rebolek is listed here development.saphirion.com
 
@rebolek Well sounds like a Rebol addict to me. :-) I'm "BrianD", a former domain specific language explorer from Microsoft's Research labs... who went all kinds of crazy and went to film school and took all kinds of detours. When given an account on AltME back in the day, it was made for me with a password and it was "Fork" (because of this website I have: hostilefork.com )
@rebolek Right now I am porting Red to R3. I got binary compatibility for "hello.red"... all 105292 bytes of it... but the test suite is proving to be mean
 
Nice... I wonder who and when starts rewriting Rebol3 in Red/System
 
@rebolek Well, the day for all kinds of bootstraps will come, but my bias (based on personal experience) is that people need to sit down and work through the hard problems. The design is more important than the implementation. @BrianH and @DocKimbel have to get together and get on the same frequency, so I'm putting that as one of the big missions of this chat.
Then there are the robots like @earl and myself, who just go around fixing broken, ugly stuff. :-)
And then there is user level enthusiasm, and @rebolek please meet @KK. one of our newest members.
 
KK.
7:52 AM
Hello @rebolek, nice to meet you :-)
 
A language ain't much if it doesn't have any users. Is it?
Rebol has kind of... um, not understood that.
 
@HostileFork there was a purity of vision which was not matched by the implementation
 
Hello @KK
 
@GrahamChiu The vision was filtered through... dinosaur. I'm sorry. I hate to say it, but I've read the Rebol code and you have to admire it on one hand... but on the other hand... it's like Carl really, really clung to processes and ways of development that have long since been disproven.
 
this sort of thing irked me because there was no way to make improvements. All sorts of road blocks really.
So, people felt disenfranchised, ignored .. so no wonder they abandoned the language
 
KK.
7:56 AM
@rebolek Hope you enjoy chatting here. :-) ttyl.
 
@KK. yes, It's pretty busy here.
 
@GrahamChiu They call me Wikiman for multiple reasons... including my caped costume and the Motorcycle helmet I drew the wiki logo on... we know what dead and alive are... !
Alive is seeing improvement, every day. You wake up and the world is better. Dead is two years and you don't get a new binary or bugfixes on your interpreter.
 

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