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3:00 PM
Can there be a gold badge for 300 downvotes called "Best Director of public QnA"
 
@Raedwald She could have at least refrained from fanning the flames.
 
"I'm sorry you feel that way" seems woefully inadequate
3
 
@StephanS That sounds like a great idea.
 
Zoe
@Raedwald How about post a real answer?
 
We don't want a combination of words. We want a different course of action. Why is it impossible to undo the decision to fire Monica? It's frustrating when SO staff act as if decisions are irreversible and unexplainable.
 
3:00 PM
@Zoe What would constitute a "real" answer.
 
And what would you think would make that answer "real"? That you appreciate the content?
 
It feels like saving face is more important than admitting somebody made a mistake.
 
Woah, didn't know Stars could be removed from messages.
 
A real response to this and several other incidents would be great, but you can't retroactively respond well to the past, and the current thing seems to be wrapped up in a lot of nuance and detail that they're extremely unlikely to elucidate.
 
Zoe
@Raedwald Anything addressing the situation in a proper manner, not some random boilerplate copy-pasta.
@Druckles room owners can cancel stars (mods too, of course)
 
3:01 PM
@GeorgeStocker You're basically saying we're immediately going to lynch her...
Frankly, that's insulting
6
 
@Zoe I just noticed ;-)
 
we can be civil.
Better yet, we have been civil in here.
 
@john for the sake of argument, agree that no mistake was made from their perspective (and admittedly they know a lot more than we do) — why would anyone apologize for doing what they understood to be right? (Again, how others feel not withstanding)
 
@Cerbrus I wouldn't find it particularly pleasant either tbh.
 
@JL2210 can badge request be put on meta.SE?
 
3:02 PM
We should get Monica in here for her view. Maybe she can explain.
 
@GeorgeStocker I have to admire Ellen Pao for her courage when this happened to her. She got stabbed in the back by the board. But at least she engaged the community.
 
@Druckles No, but that's pretty much the hole she dug...
 
@StephanS No.
 
@GeorgeStocker "Assume best intentions".... no? :/
 
Honestly, the real answer would be: we're going forward with a trajectory we know the community and mods disagree with, you'll need to deal with it, and if you are a mod or use your privileges to undermine us, expect action. It's what they're doing. They should be saying it as well
 
3:02 PM
Moderators already deleted insulting comments on her "answer". I can't imagine live chat going well.
 
Zoe
@Patrice Assume good faith is dead. Everyone is evil!
 
@Cerbrus I mean, she doesn't have to come in her to communicate. That's what her answer is for.
 
@Zoe hey, at least I am only evil in private!
I ... think
 
@Zoe yeah... seems to be the path we're taken. On both freaking sides sometimes...... It'll be hard to discuss/move these issues forward
 
Zoe
@JohnDvorak Not anymore! :P
 
3:03 PM
@Patrice I’m not even asking for that. Just that you put yourself in the perspective that that person holds. If you have that perspective, what would be the sense in apologizing when from your perspective you did the right thing?
 
@Druckles I'm not saying she shoudl. But not coming in here because we're totally going to lynch her is wrong.
 
@JL2210 what else she needs to explain?
 
Zoe
@GeorgeStocker How about explaining that instead?
 
At best any apology would be disingenuous. “I’m sorry you feel like I did the wrong thing”.
 
@GeorgeStocker Assuming Monica did do something wrong, it's clear that this was not the right way to handle it. By that I mean, whoever fired her made a miscalculation. They didn't anticipate the huge public backlash. That's a mistake on their part, surely. They should at least apologize for the current inflammatory situation, no?
 
3:04 PM
@GeorgeStocker Upon reflection, I think it's kind of rude to describe people being angry about a particular decision as "holding torches and pitchforks." I have yet to see anyone vent any kind of hatred here. The worst anyone has done is speculate about motives and try to validate or deny them by looking at the company's behavior. We might want to have some difficult conversations with her and try to get her to reflect on the harm she has done, but we don't want to hurt her. Even emotionally.
2
 
We want an explanation first and foremost...
3
 
I just try to think of my engagements with actual communities. I am involved in scouting, that's a community that also has a large corporate aspect. I think the first move would be transparency, make the information available so people involved can see what happened, and maybe relate to why a decision was made.
 
@Cerbrus But I don't think there should be an obligation to participate in chat.
 
@GeorgeStocker I am not advocating for Sara to come out and apologize. Some people are asking followups, have other related questions. That isn't being discussed. I'm not here asking for an apology, honestly. I just think that.... what happens deserves more than boilerplate across the network :/
2
 
@Druckles Again, I'm not saying he has to come in here
 
3:05 PM
@weegee What specific actions might have caused her to be prematurely fired.
 
Zoe
I'm gonna burn through my stars at this rate >.>
 
@GeorgeStocker Because "(Again, how others feel not withstanding)" is BS, you have to take into account how others feel, if you don't you're effectively saying "I'm right you're all wrong, I don't care what you say". People have fought back in the hundreds, you can't just brush that under the carpet and say it doesn't matter
 
@GeorgeStocker I would expect to have to defend that position, with all due clarity to a hostile audience
3
 
@JohnKugelman I won’t comment on this; but I will say that generally if someone is let go for cause, it doesn’t make it wrong because it upset a lot of people.
 
@Zoe There's a limit?
 
3:05 PM
I'm defending this room. I think we can be civil should she decide to come in here.
3
 
And I would not shy from doing that
 
@Cerbrus Well that's a given.
 
Zoe
@Druckles yeah, I vaguely remember about 40 per room per (UTC) day
 
It's almost impossible to expect someone to come into a room of 25+ people, almost all of whom have at best ambivalence towards them, and think that it won't come across as confrontational/combative at all.
4
 
@GeorgeStocker This situation isn't "wrong" because it upset a lot of people.
 
3:05 PM
@Cerbrus I mean, I think we should be civil regardless of whether anyone is here or not :-)
 
@JL2210 I think she is already cleared up stuff about that and we don't need anymore speculation from her side, we need SO to reply
 
user3956566
@JohnKugelman no one who doesn't work for the company actually knows who is responsible for her de-modding or the exact ins and outs. I know a fair bit about the background, as it's been a long standing thing. How is was done - it's hard to say without reading the email communication. So really it's ALL SPECULATION
2
 
There is probably no single venue on the entire network save maybe a private chatroom that would not be intensely hostile to the position
 
@Druckles Let's drop this discussion.
 
And again, I’m only assuming the positions taken by others, I am not and shouldn’t be misinterpreted to be putting new information forward.
 
3:06 PM
@Cerbrus There are enough of them in here already ;-)
 
user3956566
personally I thnk the company has handled many things very badly publicly at least
 
@JL2210 What specific actions? What if they are actions done in a private context that can not be shared?
 
@GeorgeStocker Considering how others feel is supposed to be fundamental to the CoC. It's supposedly the basis for Monica's removal. If they can't do it, why should they expect others to?
 
@GeorgeStocker I realize you're just presenting devil's advocate and other's opinions, 🥃
 
@YvetteColomb Right. But we don't know what's happening because nobody on the inside will tell us. It's their choice not to engage the community or reveal any information, and there are consequences for choosing not to engage. It's a choice they make over and over. They don't engage the community, and the community seethes.
 
3:07 PM
Unless she's in legal trouble if she does that, there's not much more that we/she can lose.
 
user3956566
@JohnKugelman I'm not sure it would be ethical for them to do so. They do not discuss demodding at all ever
 
It's frustrating that the community is then blamed for being upset, as if we have much of a choice.
 
@NickA again, I can’t speak to this specific situation without betraying confidences. But in general the amount of people who think a decision is wrong has no bearing on whether it’s wrong or not.
 
@YvetteColomb If they don't discuss things ever, that's a policy choice they decided upon. It doesn't have to be that way.
 
@GeorgeStocker if you want to know my particular beef, to be 100% specific: Some of our best and brightest elected mods that have been there (seemingly) forever are writing thoughtful, posed, well explained point of view about their actions. On the other hand, we have Sara posting a copy/paste through the network. For the amount of work Richard (and many others) put, I think the copy/paste answer feels insulting, and a lack of respect towards what these users contributed :/
32
Robert*.
 
3:08 PM
@Patrice That deserves my last star.
 
@JL2210 She already gave her view (and others gave their description of it as well). Nothing more can be discerned short of being given transcripts of the conversations, which I doubt will happen.
 
user3956566
@JohnKugelman yes and no. There's contracts between moderators and the site and they have a legal department and I imagine they take advice from that. Not saying it's right or wrong - just that's the way of the world litigation and $$
 
@Cerbrus Of course, but usually it's like 4-10 people in here talking about horses and popcorn ;) That history is not really going to represent today now that a good deal of people have made this the one and only place to discuss all this (and for some reason: star 10 chat messages per second).
 
@GeorgeStocker This really depends on the context of a decision. If this is our community, and we feel we're better off with Monica here, it's a wrong decision to remove her if we say so. If this isn't our community, and our reaction doesn't matter, stop calling it a community and stop asking us to build it.
 
user3956566
@TylerH there's many sides to this story and not just the two - the "network" and "monica" you'll find there's probably a dozen other sides to it
 
3:10 PM
@Patrice that’s a valid point of view. I am however grateful that (as I understand it from reading the public meta posts) the person who made the decision is responding and indicating their decision. I have no inside knowledge as to who made the decision, but from what I read on meta the person who made it relayed it to us.
 
Zoe
No. Just no
That response isn't an explanation.
5
 
@YvetteColomb Yes, everyone will naturally put their own spin on it, hence there's no way for us to really know more unless we see verbatim transcripts (not that I'm asking for that--just remarking)
 
Zoe
It's a placeholder over the weekend while you write a real answer.
 
@GeorgeStocker I mean... what we get is "trust us, we weren't wrong".... in the current "climate"..... it wouldn't take much to understand this will just make the community explode :/. Don't get me wrong. That's not necessarily okay either. But.... to not see it coming in the current context is.... a bit nearsighted IMHO
5
 
@Zoe are you sure a real answer is on the way?
 
user3956566
3:11 PM
@TylerH yep, which is why the network has handled it poorly - the way it was implemented and controlled has been a disaster
4
 
Zoe
@weegee Nope. That's the problem
 
@ChrisBaker SE sites (except SO) have the right to decide what content they want and which mods they want running the show, until SE decides otherwise...
 
@Patrice I see that. I wish I could be more helpful. I want to be. I would rather there be total transparency around this. I do not get to make that call, however.
 
@GeorgeStocker oh no and I don't hold you acccountable for that :) your hands are tied. You are indeed trying to "calm down" the whole thing :). It is appreciated (maybe not by all.... but I can say I see the efforts)
 
@GeorgeStocker So you know more about this but you can't say anything about it?
 
user3956566
3:13 PM
Honest to goodness/ I have spent hours and hours and hours talking to employees. I've talked to Sara. I've given them my 10 cents. They really go about some things in an arsed about way. I don't think it's malicious or cunning. I view it as disorganised and verging (at times) on incompetence
 
Zoe
@TylerH For now
 
user3956566
yvette is never seen again
 
@yvette hanlon's razor?
 
user3956566
@Patrice yes!
 
@JL2210 I know what has happened in the moderator spaces related to and preceding this. I do not have knowledge of private conversations that happened over email.
 
3:14 PM
@YvetteColomb 5 hours later - Yvette: What did I miss!
 
@YvetteColomb I've never seen you again an awful lot of times now. Are you replaced by a replicant each time?
 
user3956566
and I asked for my diamond back due to all this. I wonder if they will give it back :p
 
:47439251 5e? are you talking about d&d?
 
@YvetteColomb Are you sure you want it?
 
@TylerH no, I mistyped and then removed since I didn’t want to give away more than I’m able to.
 
user3956566
3:14 PM
@Druckles clone upon clone upon clone cc @NickA
 
ah
 
I don’t know where the line is for sharing so I’m attempting to be extra cautious
 
ohhi
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 yes actually/ after watching this debacle unfold. I think I'm good for the community :D (big head hey?)
 
@GeorgeStocker One question: What exactly would happen if you have away more than you're able to?
 
3:15 PM
@YvetteColomb But the cop can't crack the case until they hand in their badge and gun.
 
I wish whatever staffer made this decision would publicly say "I did this" and take ownership of the situation. At least have the upset directed at the right person so others don't have to apologize for a mess they didn't create.
 
@YvetteColomb But what makes you think you'll be able to do anything to actually improve the situation?
 
@YvetteColomb I don't think SE is necessarily good for you.
 
Zoe
@GeorgeStocker I've talked to one or two other mods who have explicitly said they can't share details on this. Guessing that's more or less your answer?
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker it's spilt out all over the other meta sites I've noticed. But you have to be careful
 
3:16 PM
@GeorgeStocker They say a red flag of an abusive relationship is tiptoeing around your partner...
4
 
@JL2210 Typically the content gets redacted/removed and the mod gets admonished or removed, depending on the severity of the breach of their mod agreement
 
@JL2210 if I shared more than I’m allowed? Not sure. Maybe removal of my diamond, maybe suspension? Maybe just a stern talking to?
 
user3956566
@Raedwald oooh and do I get to say "I'm too old for this ***"?
 
@GeorgeStocker None of those sound too bad
2
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I cannot, but at least people will feel they have someone on their side :D <3
 
3:17 PM
Oh, forgot about the mod agreement.
 
@GeorgeStocker Eh, George, I think you're the mod least likely to be fired on the entire network atm
 
@NickA that’s because you love how I moderate and you would hate to see me go, right?
 
I think people might have said that about Monica too
2
 
@GeorgeStocker Nice one.
 
3:17 PM
@GeorgeStocker That's because there are far worse things that you could've come out with
 
user3956566
@Druckles roflmao I tend to agree! In the past few days I've spent more time in contact with people about these sites than I was as a moderator! So - this bear has been woken up mid hibernation! :p
 
user3956566
@ErikA I think I'm the mod least likely to get their diamond back on the network right now
 
@YvetteColomb Pardon my cynicism, but that just sounds like false comfort to me.
 
@Yvette might be too soon... but I feel Monica might be less likely than you :/
 
@YvetteColomb In a nutshell: too young and not enough life experience
 
user3956566
3:19 PM
@jpmc26 I'm not going to lie. I have no power. I've rallied and pushed. That's all I can do. The old SO is dead. That I know
 
@ErikA I take what I say and what I promise very seriously, unfortunately to a fault. Even if I thought I wouldn’t get in trouble for it I promised not to share details in private spaces so I can’t. I would feel an inner betrayal of my values If I did.
 
Read section 2 clause D of the moderator agreement; I see a loophole there.
 
user3956566
@Patrice :| erm.. it's kinda funny, but yeh too soon and who knows with all the other mods stepping down, maybe they'll reinstate her!
 
@Yvette wouldn't that be the biggest irony in all this...
 
user3956566
@CindyMeister totally agree! there is something to be said for age and experience in all this. Comes with a certain wisdom
 
user3956566
3:20 PM
@Patrice well there
 
user3956566
darn enter key!
 
@JL2210 Or, don't look for loopholes, and instead follow the spirit of an agreement?
 
user3956566
well. there's a domino effect for sure.
 
Lol
 
@YvetteColomb if they reinstate her just because there are less mods then that's not it
 
3:21 PM
Pssst
 
@GeorgeStocker 100% fair, it's not yours to share, so you shouldn't share it, I understand that. Just not the fear of them suspending/revoking mod status if you did.
 
Tell that to SE
 
Zoe
"You've fully used your vote allowance for today" - anyone selling stars?
 
@Raedwald
 
@GeorgeStocker I have no objection to you sticking to your word on not sharing more information. But I still think it's more likely that your view of the situation is based on a set of ideals that are harmful to the site than it is for the things other mods have said to be misleading. Partly I base that on the ideological trend of SO over the past year, not just on agreeing with what they said. I've been expecting something like this to happen for some time.
 
3:21 PM
so much for moderators handling the featured tag
 
user3956566
@weegee I mean to stop the domino effect. I doubt they will. But I can see someone's head falling somewhere down the line. There's been a lot of bad PR and dismissiveness of the core users
 
@GeorgeStocker Can you re-add featured to the resignation notice?
 
At least I now have some chat badges
 
⭐⭐⭐ Stars! Get your stars here! ⭐⭐⭐
 
@ErikA I think that's the case for all mods, those resigning as well. We still take our promise to not copy/screen TL seriously enough.
 
Zoe
3:22 PM
@JL2210 I'm serious: Twitter.
 
@NickA Defect filed: Needs more 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟's
 
@TimPost Are you here? Why'd you remove ?
11
 
user3956566
it's almost like they don't care if the active and vocal people do leave... I know people get rude at times, but looking at the blow up everywhere it seems it's not unique to MSO!!! It's more a symptom of burn out and perceived betrayal at dedicating time and effort and having that dismissed
4
 
@Mgetz Your complaint has been taken on board, we shall add additional ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐s
 
user3956566
@JL2210 to take the heat off the whole thing probably
 
Zoe
3:23 PM
@YvetteColomb Go on chat.MSE and join some of the active rooms. It's discussed almost everywhere
 
because all 8 people who don't know about it will miss it now
 
@JL2210 Do we really need to ask? It's a PR nightmare for them.
 
⭐🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟⭐
 
user3956566
they need to figure out what the heck they're going to do to manage this
 
user3956566
@Zoe tavern?
 
Zoe
3:24 PM
oof, sorry
 
@JL2210 RIP only the mods controlling featured, 26-7-2019 - 30-9-2019
3
 
They needed to figure that out BEFORE just nuking a mod diamond...
 
Zoe
I meant chat.SE
 
@jpmc26 Really? Just remove and hope everybody will forget this ever happened
 
Hum, I'm unsure this is really constructive: meta.stackexchange.com/a/334016/287976
2
 
3:24 PM
"You have fully used your vote allowance for today" - Oh RIP all out of stars
 
Zoe
@Tensibai definitely worth it. Turn up the heat, something has to melt at some point
 
if nothing else, funny
 
i add them, hope someone else stars, then remove.
*I
 
@Tensibai Imo it should be gone though. Playing it on the person or message isn't what we should do. It's the action that's problematic
 
@rlemon are you just here for the laughs?
 
3:26 PM
@Tensibai It's not. It will really affect her a lot. I kind of expect everyone to be good to SO staff if they want them to be good to us but that's no longer the case
 
@StephanS I'm here to participate in the dicussion, any laughs are purely coincidental
 
mhmmm
 
This whole situation is a laugh
It's like watching babies fall off bikes
 
user3956566
it's insane
 
user3956566
truly
 
3:29 PM
@Cereal Or a cry. Take your pick. I'm more prone to the latter.
 
@Cereal That's funny? :P
 
user3956566
I'm gobsmacked myself and I thought nothing surprised me
 
user3956566
who puts babies on bikes anyway? someone call child welfare!
 
@Cereal why is that the first thing you think as funny?
 
oh hey, I leave for two hours and someone's pouring petrol on the fire again
 
user3956566
3:30 PM
lmap
 
@StephanS figure it out
 
is that a wayne?
 
that's a texas sized 10-4
 
God lost his job at Heaven; he was being too punishing on the bad people.
 
nice. I binged the show after you discussed it a while ago, love it. Ok sorry back to the topic now
 
3:32 PM
(There's definitely no hidden meaning to the above comment.)
 
@TimCastelijns Oct 14th. season 7
can't wait
 
@JL2210 is the meaning really hidden.....
 
My comment. Not @TimCastelijns's.
 
user3956566
I think rather than try to shut things down - dismiss vocal complaints - the network would do well to address each issue individually. In my, not at all humble, opinion.
 
I mean... every time they've done that it's resulted in a -100 or lower answer from an employee
 
3:35 PM
@KevinB perhaps they could ask volunteers to speak for them...
 
their best approach at this point would be to probably let the fire burn itself out. it's the wrong approach, ofc, but I don't see being able to recover from this.
2
 
@rlemon That's what is going to happen, as history shows.
 
@rlemon Will it die out, though? That's the gamble they're taking
 
It's just one communication disaster after another, for months and months
 
"The Welcoming" died in all fronts except the handful of vocal people on Meta
 
3:36 PM
@JL2210 no, for reasons I mentioned in my comment. I’m also somewhat ashamed I didn’t defeature it yesterday when it was posted. It felt like an abuse of the featuring system.
 
so, from a bottom line standpoint, this will probably die down too
 
Zoe
@rlemon It's still possible to recover, but it requires that the company actually starts caring
 
and as we are well aware, bottom line is all that counts
 
@rlemon going to disagree, I think an AMA would actually help clear the air a bit
 
@rlemon Their best approach is a hard stop on all these ideas about inclusion and diversity they've been pushing and re-examining their internal values as a company. But I suspect a significant and vocal portion of their staff wouldn't go along with that.
 
user3956566
3:36 PM
@KevinB cos they're approaching it in the totally wrong way
 
@JL2210 That will create an edit conflict
 
I think it would clear the air, but it would also give more fuel for people who feel slighted by the company over the past 2-3 years. and I don't think SE wants to give those people more of a soap box than they already have on meta
 
I don't know that they have any other options at this point. They didn't leave much room for maneuvering, which considering they led off the exchange with a metaphorical nuke isn't really that surprising.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak I offered them.
 
@rlemon there's always a way to recover, but it involves black magic such as "we/I made a mistake" and "I apologize" and "let us make amends right now"
@YvetteColomb the gall! :D
 
3:37 PM
in Discussion on answer by Sara Chipps: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured], Jul 26 at 19:36, by Tim Post
I'm not going to micromanage what the mods feature. At the same time, I have a boss, and she says "Don't let featured become the new HMP"
2
 
user3956566
@rlemon I reckon they'll post something.
 
@gnat good catch
 
@GeorgeStocker As I recall, it was remove once yesterday, then allowed back up. Actually, it points to Robert's resignation, yes? And why not feature that? The answer came later...
 
@weegee The post is gone
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak hehe yeh. I actually offered to help... there's a lack of good will between the meta users and the employees of late
 
3:38 PM
I'm leaving for a while. I'm tired of all this stuff. Can a mod suspend me for a week or so so I can't come back?
 
@jpmc26 You don't much like "ideas about inclusion and diversity", so the solution is form them to stop.
 
@YvetteColomb I mean to presume that they need help
 
"to cool down" is fine.
 
user3956566
@gnat not to mention it was featured by the person who posted it
 
@JL2210 suspensions don't prevent you from accessing the website
 
3:39 PM
@JL2210 but then you won't be able to run for moderator next week!
 
But they stop you from posting in chat.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak lolol oh I'm sure they know they need help! well if they don't by now, we really all may as well pack up and go home!
 
Wait; would anyone vote for me if I did nominate myself for moderator?
 
@CindyMeister moderator resignations in general are not a public spectacle, nor should they be. In particular, featuring this post only serves to raise tensions, and does not provide benefit for the community as a whole.
 
@JL2210 create a user script to remove the chat box
 
user3956566
3:39 PM
@JL2210 block the site with your modem
 
I have a simulated lag script you can install - then you can continue using the site, but painfully.
 
I believe the "don't raise tension" ship sailed last year
 
They're a public spectacle when they're a statement
 
My modem's my phone/school.
 
user3956566
@JL2210 your rep is low. You'd probably need to contribute more on the main site and get that higher
 
3:40 PM
@GeorgeStocker yes but the moderator himself revealed it. It's not a problem if they are okay with it being public
 
user3956566
@Cereal hey you putting babies on bikes.. :p
 
@JL2210 There are various laws that state probability-wise, yes, people would vote for you. However unless you are running unopposed it's highly unlikely you would win based on your experience in the site. I don't know what badges you've earned yet but it's exceedingly rare for someone with under 10k to get elected moderator. Only a couple have done so. Additionally you've not yet been here a full year, which is on the low end of time estimates for 'fully learning the community'
 
I didn't put the baby on the bike. The baby put itself on the bike
I'd argue the baby also pushed the bike over
 
@weegee that’s even more problematic, as our policy is to not take self serving actions but let other moderators jump in and handle it.
 
2 hours ago, by jpmc26
@Raedwald There is no possible way to never say anything hurtful when speaking honestly. Giles' description indicates that Monica was not blind to the potential for hurt, but made a strong effort to mitigate that nonetheless. SO's old value system was to assume good faith in such situations. At most such a situation should require moving the discussion somewhere where people likely to be hurt would not be present, shielding them from it.
 
Zoe
3:42 PM
@GeorgeStocker two of these, although tbf I'm slightly biased because one of the posts revealed a problem that would've directly affected me if I had won the election, revealed insanely big problems with SE. I don't know about you, but I'm glad the info got out, because honestly? If we don't do something, some moderators will have an awful time without knowing what they're getting into
 
@JL2210 However, you do have a good spread of activity on main and meta. I'd say you would stand a very good chance even a year from now at being elected, if you keep up your current rate (and of course, depending on your competing nominees)
 
user3956566
@Cereal well that baby clearly should not be on a bike
 
The baby symbolizes stackoverflow
 
user3956566
it's more fun to imagine babies riding bikes though
 
@Zoe well, they can always resign when they realize. And nothing would step them (or you) from writing a medium post complaining about the culture you dislike
 
3:43 PM
4 hours ago, by jpmc26
@AndrasDeak If the goal is, "Don't treat people like crap," sure. There's no contradiction there. I have no problem with that. I bought into that wholeheartedly when I believed that was what SO's Be Nice policy meant. (You can go back and read my plea over "Time to Take a Stand" if you want proof of that.) But it's gone far, far, beyond that and become, "Let's fix the racial and sex disparities," and, "It's your fault that there are disparities for not being nice enough."
 
@Cereal wayne_pointing_and_laughing.png
 
@Raedwald There's room for actually having moderation, but SO has gone way too far.
 
@GeorgeStocker FWIW last night I commented about the most disturbing part of this being that there didn't appear to be a single mod willing to say anything to the effect that management had reasonable grounds for what they did. Even if you appear to be a minority of one, that someone not employed by SE doesn't think their actions were insane does make me feel somewhat less appalled by what's happened.
 
@GeorgeStocker It should've been public and it should be in featured. People need to know what they are contributing to.
 
Zoe
@AndrasDeak Yeah, and that's exactly what they did, in an extremely visible format. This either forces a change, or the slow death of the site
 
3:44 PM
@jpmc26 ⭐
 
@GeorgeStocker I don't think you can call Robert's resignation post self-serving in good faith. It's his right to explain as much as he wants why he's leaving, especially considering how long he's been a moderator. Do you also begrudge people at your workplace for making the rounds with everyone when they retire after 30 years with the company?
4
 
@AndrasDeak They'll find out about it anyway, I know one mod personally that was linked to it
 
@DanNeely yea, the ones who remain are a bit handicapped in what we can say due to moderator agreements. So it’s a bit of a case where the only perspective you see or hear is necessarily one sided
 
@Zoe not to downplay anything, but SO won't care about losing a few mods matching your thing
 
user3956566
@ChristianGollhardt the network is facing a firestorm. Featuring posts that are feeding that storm are not helping. I think we need to take a step back and allow the employees to shore up the sites and see what they can do with the damage — Yvette Colomb 10 mins ago
 
3:45 PM
@TylerH yea, take your watch and leave me alone Frank. I don't care about your new boat.
 
mad scientists post from above is accurate, though
 
@Zoe which is to say, I don't think change will be forced by that aspect. By the mass resignations, maybe.
 
Well as fun as this has been I'm going home to have a large glass of gin, ttfn places bag of popcorn on the ground for whoever gets it first
 
Zoe
@AndrasDeak Nope, but this is the perfect storm. Two separate, massive problems, overlapping with tension and dysfunctional communication. That can cause big effects
 
@NickA is it gourmet?
 
3:46 PM
@Zoe especially if they are related by any chance
 
The popcorn or the gin?
 
@George then..... it's my 2 cents again, but the site should chat with the involved parties and figure out what CAN come out publicly here :/..... cause honestly, the lack of transparency is hurting like hell now. And Stack, by wanting to keep that privacy up... is just hurting themselves, I think :/
 
but I digress
 
@NickA mine mine mine mine...
 
I mean the tag description is:

This tag is meant to __highlight important discussions and attract attention to them__. These can be **recent events**, site definitions, **and any discussion whose resolution may have a critical impact on the whole site.** It is generally a wise idea to at least look at any new questions with this tag.
2
 
3:47 PM
@YvetteColomb removing the featured post won't accelerate their responce.
 
@YvetteColomb They aren't helping stackoverflow, but they're certainly helping the community
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak I think what is occurring now is indeed a crisis. My fear is they may shut down meta altogether or do something drastic. The community abusing employees is not going to help get the community heard... I fear a departure from the current format
 
"Welcome New Moderator" posts are featured for a few days
 
@YvetteColomb indeed
 
Zoe
@AndrasDeak even if they aren't, they affect multiple groups
 
3:48 PM
"I'm resigning" should be featured for a few days
 
I have seen no abuse of employees. I have seen good-faith (one-sided) constructive questions and requests for clarification.
 
and I'm like 99% positive when it isn't done in protest, they are left for a few days
 
user3956566
@weegee my point is - more if the staff are removing the tag - just respect them/ Honestly. Most of these people are good people just doing their jobs
 
but I can go looking for evidence of that
 
@OrangeDog there's plenty of abuse of employees, it just gets deleted fast
 
user3956566
3:48 PM
@AndrasDeak yes ^^
 
@GeorgeStocker What if raising tensions is appropriate in this situation due to the gravity of SO's actions?
 
even without considering that a steady stream of hate-fuelled snark against the company focussed on one employee is as good as blatant abuse
 
@OrangeDog Abusive comments would have been deleted. It has been claimed there were some.
 
@jpmc26 That is never ideal in any situation
 
@TylerH I don't think George is calling the post self-serving. Rather I think George's point is that there's a general norm against wielding moderation powers in matters in which the moderator is personally involved, which Robert broke in this case by featuring his own post. That's fair enough. (Although it's also understandable and defensible that he chose to break that norm, given that his resignation is in part an act of protest in which he has the support of the community.)
 
user3956566
3:49 PM
@jpmc26 the site is busting over with tension. No need to raise it. It's already there.
 
@MarkAmery this is accurate.
 
OK. George, could you please feature it again, as a non-Robert moderator?
 
@rlemon Yes, they are. Generally until another post which requires [featured] pops up.
 
I take it this would resolve the conflict of interest
 
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, 1 min ago, by NathanOliver
Of course, someone deleted the many memes of meta post about Sara.
2
 
3:50 PM
No, for reasons I laid out in my comment.
 
OK, I'll find it
 
@MarkAmery ah, I wasn't aware Robert featured his own post. I assumed it was featured by someone else
 
i won’t stop another mod from featuring it, though I would caution them not to
 
@JohnDvorak It was @TimPost right about the time he unfeatured the meta SO post.
 
user3956566
If a current moderators wants to feature this (we're in the process of assisting everyone that wanted to step down this AM) then they can. As the current mods have to deal with it being featured, it's up to them. — Tim Post ♦ 3 mins ago
 
3:50 PM
@JohnDvorak and it was the right thing to do
 
@weegee I don't think that's true. Sometimes outcry is needed for an injustice to be resolved.
 
and it's back up as a featured post now...
 
lol
what a backpeddal
> I did this for you guys, get off my case.
 
@weegee It's a good meme, though
 
essentially at this point until or unless SE responds, this post being featured requires us to spend too much attention on it when that attention is better spent elsewhere
 
3:52 PM
@rlemon meh
you gotta start somewhere
 
we have no agency to fix the problem and pouring gasoline on the fire then requires us to fight said fire, and that’s not great for anyone.
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker I agree with you. You have my sympathies George. I know what you're dealing with on the back end
 
for a staff member to unfeature it is pouring fuel on the fire
 
@GeorgeStocker While I agree with this, I think it is too important of an issue to "hide" from the non-meta crowd. They need to see what is happening
 
please understand that
 
3:53 PM
@jpmc26 SO is not a government. We don't need to put pressure on them. It's a community, we need to wait and give them their chance to speak
 
@GeorgeStocker Not to play devils advocate, but keeping it featured could be used as a form of civil disobedience
 
@DanNeely As I mentioned once already, today, Mithrandir is also on the "conservative" side. George is not alone in not coming down on the side of the "bashers"...
 
@weegee no it isn't, it's a company. A business.
 
who knows whats in the cards these days
 
@rlemon I accept blame for that. I was concerned by it being self featured yesterday and I didn’t intervene. That’s on me.
 
3:53 PM
It was my misconception that it was
@CindyMeister There are no sides.
 
Can we stop with this talk of "gasoline over the fire". We're long past that with all the incidents that have taken place previously. This is just one of the latest and greatest fudge ups.
 
@weegee No community has done any of this (multiple events over the past year), it is all imposed unilaterally from the company
 
@weegee SO governs the community. Even if they aren't a government in the sense that they can use violence to enforce laws, they are an entity that have the ability to use kinds of coercion to influence behaviors. If they're using that power inappropriately, that's bad in much the same way it is when an actual government does it, even if the consequences are less damaging.
 
@CindyMeister Thanks. I apparently missed Mithrandir's comment somewhere in the firehose then; because George has been the only one I was aware of.
 
@Magisch I know the people that work at SE. I’ve known them for years. They aren’t agents of a soulless corporation to me. I’m not going to engage in civil disobedience against people I’ve known for years and respect and trust. If I ever feel like I can’t in good faith moderate due to their actions, I’ll step down.
 
3:55 PM
@Script47 If anything it's a drop in the ocean.
 
My point being that the similarities mean many principles still hold.
 
@OrangeDog eh, you're probably right.
 
@GeorgeStocker another devil's advocate: can you be objective towards all those people? Is it possible you're biased by your acquaintance with them?
 
@GeorgeStocker difference in perspectives and all that
 
@jpmc26 no no no, no violence
 
3:56 PM
Well, it's featured again now, by a current mod
 
We can't help but react to actions. Knowing the people can help shade things, but it can also affect your judgement.
 
There's a fire going on at the Stack Exchange network. All you have is a lot of gasoline. What will you do?
1. Pour the gasoline on the fire
2. Throw a can of gasoline on the fire
3. Start a new bigger fire in the hope that the fire will be intimidated
 
@OrangeDog and no community has such communication with the employees and the contributors.
 
what I don't see being discussed much: does this mean they will be retroactivly applying CoC rulings to old content?
 
@weegee this one used to
 
3:57 PM
@rlemon you mean just like the license? (ha)
 
:P
 
@rlemon probably
 
user3956566
@CindyMeister what do mean
 
@ErikA I know its inappropriate for the situation but I burst out laughing at option 3 :D
 
3:57 PM
@ErikA 4. Trade your gasoline for a fire extinguisher.
 
@rlemon this conversation is about nothing a do at all. Talking about them won't help us nor the site nor SO
 
@rlemon on a more serious note, it's always about what we have now, rather than history. So yeah, they'd have to apply it retroactively.
 
@ErikA company strategy appears to be #3
 
@Zoe Deleted now
 
@rlemon They sort of retroactively applied the CoC to comments, when they started deleting rude & abusive comments more strictly.
 
3:58 PM
@Zoe n'aawwww you got a shout out :p
 
if they're thinking it's acceptable to (taking Monica on her word) proactivly remove a mod based on new rules, I don't think we should be surprised if content and users will be put to the same scrutiny
 
-1
Q: Can we make moderatorials more helpful and, so to say, humane?

Your Common SenseSome time ago I was approached by a moderator for the perfectly valid reason but the way it was done left me rather bewildered. Up to this day I have no idea what to make of it and whether it's possible to make such encounters more productive. So I decided to ask. I don't know whether its forbi...

 
@Feeds sorry, we're busy
 
Pouring gasoline over the fire would be me kicking up a fuss regarding why my meme post was deleted... even then... I'd want to know if it was by instructions of @Sara or @TimPost did it by his own volition.
 
@rlemon We retroactively apply rules to most things so I imagine so
 
@TylerH but not punishments
 
Zoe
@MihaiChelaru Wow, that was fast
 
and in this case a punishment was laid out
 
@Script47 I think we'be been some finding it innapropriate
 
3:59 PM
Rip shout out
 
@rlemon yes, that is the key difference. But we don't know what the CoC change is, yet
 

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