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2 hours later…
 
3 hours later…
5:46 AM
Oh boy, if I didn't already have no popcorn (due to no microwave), I'd be running out because of that MSE post proposing improvements of attitude which then...had some attitude, apparently.
 
6:06 AM
Eh. Asks everybody to be nice, and says that those who downvoted his post are creepers in the same post. Isn't that classics on meta?
 
6:19 AM
@AndrewT. oh, he might actually be a true believer.
 
6:41 AM
@KarlKnechtel <cynical mode> ""Let's have a system in place so that we can audit people who are doing it, license it, have safety tests before deployment," he said." is a super great way to hamper competition. Especially if the CEO has already been talking to regulators and setting the tone of what should be regulated. Or at least making sure his company would comply.
Once regulation hits, competitors would have to struggle to catch up and this is probably going to delay and competing products with at least six months. If not a year or more. Giving ample time for OpenAI to dominate the market. </cynical mode> I'd really rather that not be the case, of course.
 
6:59 AM
WTF is he talking about? Global extinction from LLM's? Maybe from the laughter.
Or their child suddenly started to understand thing it's talking about, and not simply mashing-up word together, and I missed the memo?
 
@markalex AI-triggered extinction can happen with any AI tools. LLMs are no exception. Remember, it's not just about generating some text that gets discarded - it can be used (and has been used since the start) for disinformation campaigns. It can also write code. And if you rig it correctly, even deploy and use that code automatically.
Saw somebody saying how they got some process that used ChatGPT to recursively try and improve some code. And at some point, it spun up another thread of itself to make things faster.
> my recursive GPT agent is trying to get out of doing work by spawning another instance of itself to do it...
>
> infinitely
> Autonomous AI agents are already here.
>
> I used one experimental model, AutoGPT, and let it analyze the market for simulations, setting its own goals. Right now, the AI is prone to distraction & confusion, but you can see how it might soon work (the system is only a week old).
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine In the SE world, we call that 100% coverage and high reliability.
@VLAZ-onstrike- The non-striking mods very likely are reviewing the most recent "other" (custom mod) flags, so they'd handle if something was urgent. Maybe.
 
Like, doesn't quite work right now, obviously, but it's an automated agent that actually tries to regulate and itself. Which is potentially disastrous. Even "dumb" autonomous agents constantly have problems. Bots trading on the stock market follow small fluctuations and aplify them. This is called a "microcrash" because in the span of a second or few some price might dramatically go down, as a bot does something, leads to a price drop,
other bots respond almost immediately with selling, which brings the price down more. Then the price is low and they start buying. It sort of levels out but usually the price is still lower after the microcrash and recovery. Now imagine a flock of these agents that also try to re-set their goals. Oh, and are also easily distracted. Who knows - a new stock for tulips comes in, that for whatever reason, triggers something from their training, they all stop trading other stuff.
Also, ironically, these two tweets are in this SO blog post. Which is recent. Not sure if it's the latest any more.
Also on agents: thanks to them we had [the most expensive book on Amazon](https://www.wired.com/2011/04/amazon-flies-24-million/). Priced $23,698,655.93 and it was "The Making of a Fly: The Genetics of Animal Design". A biology book on flies. The reason was damn simple: two bots had pricing for the book. And only two bots.

- Bot 1 would try to sell the book as expensive as possible within margin. Say the book costs $25 - that's the lowest it would go but if there was a second listing for $50, it would increase the price so it's still the cheaper than the other listing but closer to it. Say
I think I got some maths wrong at the end there but I was trying to illustrate the point. Both bots just follow the rules they've had for themselves. It's the interaction between the two that was the bug.
 
7:26 AM
@AndrewT. "OpenAI CEO Sam Altman says he loses sleep over the dangers of ChatGPT." Oh, good to see I'm not the only one.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Didn't know you were a CEO, Cody
But yeah, there is generally more than one CEO in the world.
 
No, there's only one OpenAI CEO. There are, however, multiple people who lose sleep over the dangers of ChatGPT.
 
('twas a joke hinged on misinterpreting your statement)
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- this observation gets "funnier" when you apply it to, say, Eliezer Yudkowsky, who presents himself as highly intelligent and also tries to warn people to beware of agents (human or bot) that are highly intelligent, as part of talking about AI risk
 
7:52 AM
@VLAZ-onstrike-, I hope that I understand general danger of bots. And I agree, that "self-repairing" bot impose bigger danger. But I don't believe it to be a global extinction danger, maybe in worst case scenario - next crash of financial system. But nothing of Terminator2-scale stuff.
 
@markalex Or you let the bots manage the computer systems of dams.
Extinction event is not really "Robots come for us". It might just be "bots have a major malfunction and do something catastrophic"
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- years in and years out computers either kept out of critical infrastructure, or they use with so much layers of redundancy, that it's hard it comprehend. I don't think introduction of LLM's will suddenly change it. (My thought in this case more about nuclear station and nuclear weapons, not dams, as latter with all the possible damage and suffering are still hardly global threat)
@VLAZ-onstrike- Maybe you are right. And I'm too optimistic on stability of infrastructure.
 
8:07 AM
@VLAZ-onstrike- To me this is just a large oversight on the user of the "bot". As I said before, it's just recursive prompting. It's nothing special. It also does not get context at all, so if the user thought this was some "powerful AGI-level bot", then I don't know what to say
at least, the huge price for that book made some free ads for it. I guess this is an interesting strategy, although really bad based on their initial attempt
 
the general form of the argument for "global extinction danger" is basically: AI develops a goal that is not in alignment with ours, and then determines our existence to be an impediment to that goal
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- that's also what I thought when I saw part of the video where he talked to people of congress
 
the sophomoric example goes something like "the AI wants to make as many paperclips as possible; humans contain paperclip material that has not yet been processed"
 
@KarlKnechtel I feel like this is a bogus argument on the part of congress people and the CEO. Don't get me wrong, if someone who is uh, really [word here], and make a drone with weapon with that on it, yeah, maybe it's bad. But not worse than say, existing drone who use much worse heuristic, and their "user" bad judgement
 
that argument comes from others, though. in particular, MIRI
(the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, headed by Eliezer Yudkowsky)
 
8:12 AM
yeah, but I recall seeing that argument on the video where the CEO talked (I think? was probably not 1:1 but it had a similar meaning)
still bogus to me regardless of who said it
 
@markalex Human-assisted extinction, surely. Like from gullible humans assuming that the output of an LLM is factual and then following its advice.
 
or putting an LLM inside a drone or autonomous machine and then thinking it's gonna "follow orders" without even understanding context
 
> the generative AI is not bias and not analogous to the stack exchange situation.
:ultrafacepalm:
I know I can't namecall people, but can I at least expose their own embarrassment until they drop it?
 
With all due respect, I don't think they really know the full extent of the meaning of "bias" here.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- Connecting the dots... a failure to understand molecular and evolutionary biology (due to a war between two bots driving up the price of a critical text and thus making it unobtainable for virtually everyone) leads to extinction of the human race?
 
8:18 AM
@CodyGray-onstrike No, in your case Cody, I believe your reason for that does not align (see what I did? :P) with the reason of the CEO. His reason is likely for competition and losing money over smaller companies improving too fast, etc. But your reason? I mean I guess it's similar to mine, although slightly different
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- (A what now? I'm totally unfamiliar with these things.)
 
@CodyGray-onstrike more like a failure to understand that "no, it does not understand context" :/
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Oh, in that case we need to worry exactly about everything. Like, for example sarcasm: If somebody doesn't understand sarcasm in message "If you don't like something, then go and push red button". But I strongly believe we don't need laws regulating use of sarcasm.
 
@E_net4isonstrike Based on the history here, I think you'll be busy for a while...
 
if some CEO complain about it to congress, I bet they would put regulation for an intangible concept such as "sarcasm".
all you need is big money saying something and everyone fold in four
 
8:25 AM
Imagine declaring sarcasm "unwelcoming" and seeking to ban it. Yeah, that'd be nuts.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Hah, how much mods will be banned within first day of such policy?)
 
Sooooo, fun fact, I'm pretty sure the old new Code of Conduct had a prohibition against sarcasm
 
"old new Code of Conduct" what is this, exactly?
 
Archive link: "Avoid sarcasm and be careful with jokes"
The one we had before the current, just-released one, which I call the "new new Code of Conduct".
 
Hmm. Interesting idea. And very enforceable one /s.
 
8:33 AM
Oh, don't remind me of all the "did you read the code of conduct?" comments I flagged back in those days.
 
Did you read my passive-aggressive comment about the Code of Conduct?
 
And I can imagine comments under "Penalty box" if it'd have been enforced.
 
8:50 AM
0
Q: How to formulate question such that it is more on topic?

Giorgi MoniavaImagine there is some framework, and there are two ways to use a major feature of this framework: way A way B Now, “way A” is the documented approach. But sometimes you encounter people using “way B” (actually if you do this, it has consequence that certain features of the framework won’t work ...

 
9:36 AM
(removed)
 
(rEMoVeD)
 
                              (moved)
 
@NordineLotfi I posted a link somewhere about what the military said. They've since clarified it wasn't an actual simulation but a thought experiment, so less impactful. But it went like this:
they train AI to control drones which seek out military targets. However, the final "destroy"/"don't destroy" decision is given to a human operator. Since the AI is trained to prefer destruction, it sees the no-go signal as counter to its objective and it attacks the operator. It's re-trained to also consider "don't kill the human operator" as objective to follow at which point it might destroy communication towards instead, so it cuts off the human feedback.
(when it was initially presented it sounded like they've ran this simulation somewhere and that was the outcome but, as I said, that was later retracted)
 
Thanks! I was trying to find it as well
 
So, @ThomA... Did you just get tired of bad keming causing people to butcher your previous name, thus forcing a change?
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- It's somewhat wrong conclusion: drone without operator or communication should not destroy targets (and get points) so killing operator has no profit. Sound like they butchered red button paradox.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I suspect keming is indeed the reason.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- Yeah, I did read it (and heard about roughly before that too) but I wouldn't be surprised if they made real life testing (even if only done on a plastic mannequin) without telling anyone
 
9:56 AM
@VLAZ-onstrike- Oh, maybe it's also because of this unfortunate coincidence?
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Aa. If it were me, I'd certainly not want to be considered associated.
Also, "larn"? I get that it's somewhat of a trend to misspell words for brands but "lern" or "lrn" seems better.
 
10:10 AM
> If we add up the hours spent by tens of thousands of people searching for a common sense solution to this problem, we would have a result of thousands of hours... but hey... it's easier to downvote in 1 second than to give an answer to a problem that thousands of people have.
Hey, it's easier to complain about downvotes than to inspect the help pages and find that general computing problems are off-topic here.
 
1 second, eh? I guess the redesigned voting buttons really did optimize voting.
Apropos of nothing: When I'm no longer on strike, remind me to write up a Meta post requesting that Monica be properly attributed for her work in the Help Center article.
4
 
10:58 AM
@CodyGray-onstrike Takes a whole second to downvote? The new buttons must be worse than before. I could downvote much faster
 
It was my understanding that users spent several seconds just attempting to locate the buttons previously, that's why the indicator triangles needed to be made smaller.
 
 
3 hours later…
2:20 PM
The Data Dumps have been turned off.
10
 
@Mithical oh no :/
this is exactly what I imagined the first time I saw that article where it was mentioned that SO would prevent people from using the site as dataset for free on ML models
 
-1
Q: What are chances that following changes in the policy would be implemented?

Your Common SenseI strongly believe that following changes in the policy are critically important, in order to make Stack Overflow a friendly place and a better knowledge base: Following closure reasons removed altogether Duplicate Needs details or clarity Needs more focus Opinion-based Needs debugging details ...

 
@NewPosts ... wat?
 
inb4needsfocus
 
 
4 hours later…
6:20 PM
anyone know what kind of participation we're getting with this strike? like what % of the mods across the network are participating?
 
@canon 110 of total 539 (including inactive ones) are striking.
 
nice
 
You can see list of signer here
 
lol, monica... https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/
_"One popular theory is that the CEO, having gone publicly all-in on LLMs, was embarrassed to find out that his flagship site deletes that stuff."_
 
Plus, there are some moderators who expressed their support, but did not sign said letter: I believe at least two from SO, but I'm not aware of situation on other sites.
 
6:32 PM
@canon 110 moderators covering 76 sites, 17 former moderators and 1003 curators - 1130 total.
@markalex Similar. We have no numbers, though.
 
6:52 PM
@canon I... would not be surprised
 
7:14 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
8:30 PM
imo the second shoe is only "bad" because it is only half of a solution
 
0
Q: Stack Snippet fullscreen close button is invisible

Ben the CoderI'm running a Stack Snippet fullscreen, however the "Close" link is almost invisible. See image: Zoomed in: Could the close link have a solid background? Something like this: Or even better, have a button instead of a link. P.S. I think that Stack Snippets, when run fullscreen, should have th...

 
8:45 PM
searching for anything flutter related is frustrating. results are flooded with crappy tutorials for doing stupid simple things or installing the author's favorite plugin to "solve" the problem
 
9:05 PM
That's a lot of technology that has this problem. Well, Flutter does sound a bit worse than normal but still - articles on stupid simple things dominate all tech. Today I was looking at how to do something in .NET and there were maybe 10 articles that didn't address what I wanted but just a basic case.
 
i have a situation where there's ~ 80 different properties in my appstate, each of which need a setter with custom logic and a getter
and...
it feels very wrong to just shove all of this into a single class and have a 1000 line file
 
I wanted to see how to do an update in Entity Framework without grabbing the data. Because normally you fetch the data from the DB, goes through the ORM mapper, gives you an object to work with in C#, you update a field, then call a save, then EF checks what changed and makes the update query. That's the basic one. I wanted a simple way to just do the equivalent of UPDATE table SET foo = 42 WHERE id = 9001
 
but, online results for anything state related are bombarded with "easy solution!" results that often don't improve upon the base solution
 
Found one person who asked the same in a GitHub thread of some sort and there was a single reply of "why would you want that?"
 
Oh, just migrate to <insert thing i built>! it's easy scalable and straightforward, very optimized!
 
9:09 PM
@KevinB "Last updated, 2018" or something, I assume.
 
pretty much
i just installed a vscode extension that will create all the setters and getters for me. screw it
1000 line file here i come
 
@KevinB Achievement unlocked: Java.
Java IDEs have this built-in. Because automating boilerplate is important.
 
realistically i should break this down into multiple states, but how do i then popagate changes between the primary state that handles the bluetooth connection and those other states?
those other states need to send bluetooth messages on change
hmm... maybe that's the answer
nah
so, lets look at this from a react/typescript perspective.
to the js room
 
9:46 PM
1
Q: The company appears to have been particulaly reticent, even secretive, regarding communications during the past several months

John OmielanMy reading of thousands of posts, including some from shortly after SO started, indicates the company has often not been particularly good at communicating with the community. Nonetheless, it seems that over the past few months the company has been particularly bad, even rather unnecessarily secr...

 
 
2 hours later…
11:23 PM
@NewPosts ...is this satire? I genuinely cannot tell.
I guess they said it's not
in which case it makes no sense; what?
If it's satire, it's mediocre satire. If it's serious, then it makes no sense at all.
 
11:56 PM
0
Q: Triage queue is inconsistent in showing timestamps

Kevin M. MansourWhile reviewing some posts in triage, I noticed the following in this post: How dare on Earth an answer that was written 24 minutes ago has 2 or 3 weeks old comments, this can be pretty confusing to new people into reviewing in general or people who care for specific details. I know that this is...

 

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