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1:34 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Security Hound
@NoDataDumpNoContribution - I am not sure that information will be shared, nor do I think it is appropriate for it to be shared. While I do not agree that a short suspension for submitting hundreds of ChatGPT-generated answers is enough punishment, the user was suspended when it was discovered they submitted ChatGPT answers in the past. I believe submitting a ChatGPT response as an answer is worse than plagiarism since, at least with plagiarism, you are copying a human's written work. However, in 2024, I suppose that's not guaranteed with AI-generated articles. — Security Hound 46 secs ago
 
 
4 hours later…
5:16 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by desertpureolive
If you read the robots.txt now, you will see that GPTbot is not included there. Why has this change been made? — desertpureolive 15 secs ago
 
5:55 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by NoDataDumpNoContribution
If everyone would apologize for everything the internet would simply fill up with these. I just want to understand the situation and if more context cannot be given, this is a bit difficult. I think the only thing that really needs to be done is for the wrongdoer to accept the penalty (probably done already) and double down in the future on making it up. Then everything is fine. And we can think about the rules. Maybe they need tweaking. Like how to better detect AI generated content, what duration of suspension is good, how to avoid that reputation also motivates negative behavior... — NoDataDumpNoContribution 9 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by tripleee
@PeterMortensen Yes, these are UTC times. We should perhaps make that clearer. — tripleee just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by idmean
So we have finally reached the point where not only the company is corrupting the platform's core value of content quality, but now the moderators have also joined this corruption process. No one will obey the rules if there's no consequences. It's a simple as that. It's been going downhill for a long time. — idmean 34 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@desertpureolive I didn't get the memo, though it might be related to this discussion on MSE: Is Stack Exchange explicitly blocking web crawlers that have a potential to be used for training AI models?Andrew T. 28 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by NoDataDumpNoContribution
@blackgreen "Some of you folks seem to think that suspensions are meant as a punishment. They are not." This caught my eye. I don't know what suspensions are meant as but I'm sure they are actually a form of punishment. Not being able to take part in this network is limiting the abilities of affected users. This artificial limitation effectively acts as a punishment. I can't interpret it any other way. And I think mods should be aware of that too. — NoDataDumpNoContribution just now
 
6:59 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by user3840170
Wait, Discussions still exist? — user3840170 53 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Syed M. Sannan
@NoDataDumpNoContribution Agreed! I think there should be special focus on defining what extent/amount of AIGC violations should result in what punishment(s) in a codified format. That is so that the users know what to expect from the moderators and the behavior against every (or most) AIGC violations is standardized. I am thinking of creating a meta post asking this so that the community may discuss and eventually reach a refined code of conduct against AIGC but I do struggle with eloquence. Would you, or any of the other users here volunteer to write this post in the light of these events? — Syed M. Sannan just now
 
7:38 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by MisterMiyagi
What is up with the odd "numbering" on the lists? With the latter two lists continuing the previous numbering and letters, but not actually being continuations content wise, this makes no sense to me. — MisterMiyagi 31 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by MisterMiyagi
I don’t think there are "things he can do in order to pay back for the wrong things he did". A high rep trusted user deliberately breaking the rules at a massive scale of both content and time just… breaks trust, not only in the offender that was caught. It’s long been a pain point that some people interpret the rules leniently, but this scale puts into question - at least for me - why one should even bother. — MisterMiyagi 49 secs ago
 
7:57 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Tamás Sengel
Props for not disappearing and apologizing. I don't even agree with the AI rules here, but I value integrity tremendously — Tamás Sengel 52 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by MisterMiyagi
Honestly, it’s nice that you will move forward - but having thought about this, I don’t know how to move forward. This is a massive loss of trust into established community members that seems so far completely unheard of. It’s one thing that new actors don’t care, but this puts into question many of the foundations of the community and knowledge repository. — MisterMiyagi 29 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
Now I am wondering why spending too much time closing question as duplicate and doing curation when I can race for the "1M Rep" — Temani Afif 12 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
9:30 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
@NoDataDumpNoContribution It is not a punishment in a sense that we are not dealing with thieves and murderers where you want to give different and just prison sentence for vastly different crimes and severity. Some people seem to equate days of being suspended as a prison sentence and want that suspension to reflect number of AI posts. Suspensions don't serve as a justice system. While they are a kind of punishment for suspended person because they are not able to participate while being suspended, primary role is stopping and preventing further bad behavior. — Dalija Prasnikar ♦ 16 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
10:37 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by orionrush
@AaronBertrand, I can't say I completely agree. I mean, I agree that Edge auto dark mode is sometimes janky, and maybe Microsoft could be considered a 'bad actor' 🤷🏼‍♂️. Google is no saint, nor Apple, and poor Mozzila just can't 'keep up' -- they all have their faults. I think you can see now these arguments are shallow deflections. As a user, in my experience, SO's dark mode is unique in that its exceptionally horrible and unusable in this context. As Abdul Aziz Barkat points out, there may be room for improvement and possibly low-hanging fruit. — orionrush 41 secs ago
 
10:51 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by orionrush
Ultimately, I've raised this as a bug here in SO as SO is able to to address it, whereas iOS Edge lacks a proper bug reporting channel (another point for 'bad actor'). I'm fatigued by this SO discussion, though. It's been drive-by downvoted and twice closed as a dupe despite having a fundamentally different agenda than the other question—maybe a mob bias against MS and iOS? So, I can't use the site on my platform without doing backhandsprings. And I can't raise the bug as legitimate without doing the same. Why am I here again? ref: github.com/MicrosoftEdge/DevTools/issues/154orionrush 16 secs ago
 
11:15 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@DalijaPrasnikar "in a sense that we are not dealing with thieves and murderers" Not murderers I hope, but definitely thieves. There is a whole lot of plagiarism around and at some extent it could be criminal. If I were to, lets say publish an entire programming book on SO or spam links to where illegal copies of that book could be downloaded/purchased. Then that is a crime and the amount of financial damage caused will determine how severe the punishment in court will be. — Lundin 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
But the SO network will just delete the content and suspend the offender for a week, so that they stop posting criminal content. This is not reasonable! There has to be different grades of severity and there has to be punishment, that's how the civilized world works. — Lundin 17 secs ago
 
11:32 AM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Peilonrayz
@blackgreen The argument "you don't have all the facts, stfu" is obviously non-sense. We don't have all the facts about whether content is AI, so have to work off heuristics. Or should we only moderate admissions of AI with accompanying proof? Many times correct conclusions are drawn from partial data. Additionally being uber-defensive and dismissive isn't really a good look, and makes you look far more guilty than you otherwise would. — Peilonrayz 17 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
And for the same reasons, it is not reasonable to hand out the same suspension to someone breaking the rules once as someone doing it 1850 times. The way punishments work IRL for real crimes is that the less serious the crime, the bigger deterrent effect there is in case risking punishment (and there's plenty of scientific evidence supporting this). And the other way around, if there is low risk and only mild punishment if you get caught, then the more tempting it will be to break the rules. — Lundin 27 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
@Lundin You completely missed the point, and I don't know what to say to put you on the right track, because you keep insisting that suspensions are something they are not. — Dalija Prasnikar ♦ 32 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@DalijaPrasnikar Nobody is replying to my arguments. I've made lots of examples here with plenty of arguments stating why "suspensions aren't punishment" isn't a reasonable stance. That seems to be where I end up every single time whenever ending up arguing with moderators about moderation policy or grave inconsistencies in how suspensions are handed out. It really seems to boil down to: moderators can't face the arguments because there are no policies except "wing it". — Lundin 15 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
If moderation wasn't completely arbitrary, the moderators could just give me a link to the policy where it says: "for offence X do Y, for offence A do B" and there would be no need for me to argue in the first place, I would just accept that. — Lundin 55 secs ago
 
12:10 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
@Lundin standard escalation process is warning/7/30/365. Depending on the offence, user might get a warning or immediate suspension. See: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/337396 Not all guidance for moderators is publicly available. — Dalija Prasnikar ♦ 13 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@DalijaPrasnikar I wasn't asking about escalations, I know that. I was asking about grading. To get back to my numerous examples, using SO servers as ddos hosts or posting severe hate speech (both are crimes) means: 7 days of suspension, deletion of content and then the user is welcome to hang around as if nothing happened. Yes or no? If no, then where do you draw the line and how do you grade different offences. That is the policy I'm asking about. — Lundin 12 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
@Lundin If you want a change in how suspensions are issued, you can always post a new proposal. — Dalija Prasnikar ♦ 41 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@DalijaPrasnikar You keep ignoring my arguments so there is no point in continuing this. — Lundin 37 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dalija Prasnikar
@Lundin I am ignoring your apple to oranges comparisons. Posting AI is not criminal offence. There are no double standards when dealing with users who are posting AI. — Dalija Prasnikar ♦ 19 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Lundin
@DalijaPrasnikar Which brings us back to the previously ignored arguments of yesterday meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/430072/…. Don't get caught. — Lundin 12 secs ago
 
12:44 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Carlo Wood
@Cerbrus What I mean is that if code can't compile unless you use C++20, then it is labeled c++20. Current A.I. is stupid, but this can be automated. Maybe not by using an LLM, but at the least automated (for the existing answers). In terms of sorting the answer, we need a mix between sorting by newest answer, and highest up votes: the problem is that a recently added solution with a much lower number of up votes might be the by far the best solution. I'm all for sorting by number of up votes, but then I want old answers that use an old version to moved down. — Carlo Wood 19 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
This isn't feasible, because any given error message can have arbitrarily many ultimate causes; an exception can only ever capture the proximate cause, which is often useless for both understanding and debugging. — Karl Knechtel 48 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Zoe
It would be useful for some common errors. There is an error like that for NullPointerExceptions IIRC. It was manually added though, and it's done by SE's devs, so there's a lot of overhead to the process. It's a good idea for certain very common and very clear errors, but aside that, not so much — Zoe ♦ just now
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
When you find a "decent canonical", add it to your saves; then when you're closing a question later, you can add "in:saves" to the duplicate search - it helps immensely. Eventually you'll be typing in:saves <keyword> <keyword> by pure Zen instinct. — Karl Knechtel 9 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Carlo Wood
@einpoklum I work on a daily basis with Gemini and ChatGPT and know exactly how bad they are ;). But recognizing if features of a new version are being used is well in the range of what an LLM is capable of. Anyway, it doesn't have to an LLM perse. Lets for now assume this can be done and first concentrate on the ideal solution for sorting answers. Whether or not it can be automated seems an orthogonal problem that can be addressed later. — Carlo Wood 32 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Aside from that: if someone is posting an error trace with no corresponding code, no attempt to explain the situation, no prose beyond a useless title and "I want to fix that error.", and no evidence of ability to speak or write any more English than that... it's not worth trying to figure out what the duplicate is unless you already know. Just close as unclear, missing debugging details, whatever, and let it get roomba'd. — Karl Knechtel just now
 
1:22 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by camden_kid
The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that even this is AI generated — camden_kid 27 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Zoe
@KarlKnechtel There are some exceptions to that. For Android for example, there's a general debugging canonical for finding stacktraces. Using the canonical instead of closing as no debugging details while having a hammer saves up to 2 close votes — Zoe ♦ 53 secs ago
 
1:42 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by einpoklum
@CarloWood: "is well in the range of what an LLM is capable of." an LLM is entirely incapable of correctly parsing C++ code, which is undecidable even theoretically. But like I said, straightforward pieces of code could well be effectively parse-able. — einpoklum 31 secs ago
 
 
2 hours later…
3:33 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Suspensions are punishment to most users on the receiving end. It doesn't matter that they're not "meant" to be punishment. Saying suspensions aren't punishment is akin to a bully saying "It was just a joke". It's only a joke if both parties laugh. Even if you don't use it as punishment, even if you don't intend it to be punishment, IT IS perceived as such. Heck, ask anyone that's been suspended on SO. — Cerbrus 57 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@TamásSengel Integrity? When posting over a thousand AI-generated/AI-assisted answers, knowingly breaking the rules. Apologizing after getting caught is not a display of integrity. Integrity is not knowingly breaking the rules on this scale (or any scale, for that matter), in the first place. — Cerbrus 9 secs ago
 
3:51 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Druckles
@AlexanderIvanchenko, the "after" was required here :-) — Druckles 34 secs ago
 
4:24 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by NoDataDumpNoContribution
@SyedM.Sannan "Would you, or any of the other users here volunteer to write this post in the light of this event?" The bigger you make the scope of any discussion the lower the chances of getting anything done. It would be a lot of effort with little chances, I wouldn't want to spend this time now. The only question I would ask is if 1000 AI posts and 1 AI post really should be treated the same or if there is a difference and that difference should result in a higher suspension for the first case? My impression is that the mods and the community may differ on that one. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 57 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by NoDataDumpNoContribution
@DalijaPrasnikar "While they are a kind of punishment for suspended person because they are not able to participate while being suspended, primary role is stopping and preventing further bad behavior." I get the general notion. Also in real crimes prevention is a big issue. Judging by the votings here my impression is that this apology and the mod reaction/handing out of a mild suspension is seen quite controversial by the community. Maybe people doubt that it's enough to stop the bad behavior. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 48 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by NoDataDumpNoContribution
This answer isn't that bad but too generic in my eyes. The only interesting point is 3a. — NoDataDumpNoContribution 54 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Ray
@l4mpi "energy...would be better spent on anything else, e.g. discussing if they should suffer any actual consequences...wasting more CM or Mod time on a BS number that does literally nothing seems worse than useless." The number is BS, but a lot of users care about it regardless, and are willing to post bogus answers to get it. Our goal is to train them to stop that, and if giving reputation can train them to do it, if we were to, e.g., set VonC's reputation to 0, that would train them to not do it. Embarrassing that fellow humans can be trained like that, but might as well use it. — Ray 20 secs ago
 
5:37 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Syed M. Sannan
@NoDataDumpNoContribution Well... I figured that eventually :). Made a draft of a post a while ago, will post it finally tomorrow. I will use something similar to "if 1000 AI posts and 1 AI post really should be treated" as the title, thanks for the idea. — Syed M. Sannan 25 secs ago
 
5:56 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Display name
Terrible idea to delete everything. Lots of obviously valuable resources were totally torched. I'm glad you have warm feelings in your tummy now but think of others next time. — Display name 30 secs ago
 
6:18 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
I mean, I already shared my thoughts on that idea as currently applied in the C tag.... — Karl Knechtel 19 secs ago
 
7:12 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Security Hound
While navigating Stack Overflow. Click your username on any question or answer you have authored. — Security Hound 49 secs ago
 
7:30 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Alexander Ivanchenko
@ShadowWizardLoveZelda Hypothetically, it would be more useful and fair to put bounties on these very questions that now appear to be deprived of answers after answers posted by VonC were deleted (reminder, many of them were bounted). Not on some arbitrary questions. — Alexander Ivanchenko 18 secs ago
 
7:43 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dominique
@NoDataDumpNoContribution: 3a is indeed the core of my answer. — Dominique 54 secs ago
I don't get this at all. You're by all means aware of how the site works and how the community works, you have a 4-digit user ID and 1M+ rep for crying out loud. So you knew full well how wrong this all is. I don't buy a sudden change of heart, it only makes me think that the rest of your reputation is also partly based on foul play or at least unethical behaviour. And I don't know the point of this post, other than to pretend to yourself that you did nothing wrong because you've apologised and that's that. Are you perhaps planning to run for mod? I see no other point. — Andras Deak -- Слава Україні 23 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
9:02 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
How exactly should I understand the metric for the graph - what is SumInvWeight? — Karl Knechtel 35 secs ago
 
9:12 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Karl Knechtel
Not rhetorical: Before AI was available, how would we have handled a high-rep user being suddenly discovered to have 1k+ (out of ~30k) plagiarized answers? Would we have issued a short suspension and done our best to clean everything up? Should it be different for AI? — Karl Knechtel 41 secs ago
 
9:58 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
@Displayname VonC didn't delete them. SO moderators / staff did, as they were in clear violation of SO's rules... — Cerbrus 17 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by pjs
What’s to stop you from editing the good answer to bring it into alignment with the revised question? — pjs 44 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Fr&#233;d&#233;ric Hamidi
@Andras, yep, that's why everyone is asking for the reason behind all this. If I had to guess, I would suspect a spike of hubris once one is in the megarep zone, and a sudden urge to dominate even further. But I'm no therapist. — Frédéric Hamidi 52 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Dan Schwartz
Dear Fiddle Freak, — Dan Schwartz 22 secs ago
 
 
1 hour later…
11:29 PM
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by joel
Meanness is never good, anywhere, under any circumstances. It is always selfish — joel 46 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
we all on Stack Overflow are humans --> we don't downvote humans, we downvote content — Temani Afif 1 min ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by joel
@TemaniAfif I have seen that said elsewhere. I don't believe that people honestly believe that is how communication works — joel 11 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Tsyvarev
Advantages of downvoting without explanation are already covered e.g. in that answer. If you want to discuss this situation again, then you need to somehow measure (objectively!) not only disadvantages, but those advantages too. Otherwise .. this doesn't look like a discussion. — Tsyvarev 59 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by joel
@Tsyvarev explaining downvotes is a small part of my post. I am primarily highlighting the human experience, which I feel is sorely neglected — joel 37 secs ago
[ Boson light ] New comment posted by Temani Afif
Again, it's all about content. "someone", "respect", "communication" are irrelevant to the content you write. If you take it too personally then probably this website is not for you. — Temani Afif 48 secs ago
 

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