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12:00 PM
whoops, brain fart, sorry :D
I just had both questions open side by side, sorry about that
 
12:14 PM
@Cœur you got me curious
 
@GeorgeStocker You can probably guess from the votes on your answer that the trend is in the exact opposite direction
 
Realistically if Stack Exchange chooses to take #1 and #2 off of meta there’s not much the meta-izens can do about it. It doesn’t matter if they want that or not, if it happens, it happens.
At that point, arguing about it just serves the argument that meta isn’t the place
 
Right
 
for feedback.
 
there's nothing we can do about anything anyway, right?
 
12:20 PM
Meta always felt like a conduit to the company in addition to being a meta site for Stack Overflow the programmer community. We have plenty to talk about if we focus on our own programmer community as opposed to trying to effect change on a business that has lots of stakeholders and limited capacity
 
My prediction: it'll get worse, and escalate to the point where the only guarantee is derision for anyone coming to meta
 
@GeorgeStocker so what you recomend is "Just shut up, and live with it" ?
2
 
it's happening and the community is insufficiently organized to put a stop to it
 
eh, that’s certainly the healthier option
 
Zoe
@Magisch no matter how organized we become, it won't help
 
12:22 PM
Probably tangential, but I just disabled my "Activity Data" in my profile and set myself off duty on the site I mod, I don't feel I can properly moderate actually with that much slaps in face from SE
 
the problem is that only the community itself will be hit by such protest :(
I don't think sustaining post quality on the main sites is a priority for the company. At least it doesn't seem like it.
 
@tensibai: I think introspection on the part of meta folks is necessary; but based on what I’ve read above the people that need to introspect their behavior aren’t yet capable of doing so in this instance. In the larger sense, we need to spend our time focused on our issues and not make the company issues our issues.
 
then again without mods the rude comments would proliferate
 
We failed as moderators. I failed.
 
Or said another way: What I consider a proper moderation seems to doesn't match SE direction, so I'll let a few weeks pass to digest that and see how it evolves
 
12:24 PM
Instead of keeping meta in the same level of moderation that we did for Stack Overflow, we let just about anything go and the chickens came home to roost
 
@GeorgeStocker do you consider the lack of moderation tooling and apparent push against the traditional quality control a "company issue"? Or do you mean something else? Because most "meta hounds" object loudest to the degradation of SO main.
 
There’s tooling for moderation on meta, we just don’t use it as much because we were operating off the 2011 Jeff mantra of it being a relaxed place for moderation
 
I'm not talking about meta
Meta is not "a toxic place" because of this post. It's "a toxic place" because of the long-term history.
 
Stack Overflow’s moderation tools have always been “just good enough”. I’m glad they’re revamping them though
 
and the company-directed pushback seems to have started in full swing with the welcome wagon
so I'm just not sure I understand what you meant by "not make the company issues our issues"
 
12:27 PM
If I don't feel in line anymore with it, I'll just step down and stop, my site is far from SO and just an anecdote in SE network so that won't change anything.
 
@GeorgeStocker I'm sitting on declined comment flags for personal attacks on employees because rules are more lax on meta
Indeed, I believe the mods have been quite a bit too scrupulous when it comes to removing unconstructiveness, and it's settled into the normal & accepted tone here. This had the long term effect of making employees dread coming here, at least in part
 
You’re right. IF we had enforced comment moderation in the same line we would have for Stack Overflow and we had enforced constructive ness by removing non-constructive comments, we wouldn’t have this issue likely.
Some of us got pushback for doing that and we didn’t keep pushing for it, we should have
 
@GeorgeStocker Ok comments are sometimes too harsh, I remember reading some and thinking "That's a bit over the line and not helping", but I roughly apply the same level to flag them on meta than on main than to delete on my site. So maybe I'm too laxist on what is acceptable, but I'm pretty sure I didn't flag much comments on meta.
 
@GeorgeStocker Maybe it should be done anyways even if it is too late
Have the mod team put out an announcement that meta is now on the same standard as main wrt. civility
 
Again what I consider "a bit over the line" and what you consider "abusive" are maybe on the same level, but if that's really a problem of "2011's idea of moderation" then there's something to update on this part first
 
12:37 PM
Evidently the theory that employees can handle personal attacks and being called incompetent or malicious is not working well
 
I've seen a lot of useful conclusions reached by people with strong disagreements hashing them out on Meta in the comments section. Wouldn't want to lose that.
 
@Magisch Fully agree that's far over the line
 
@Magisch When have they been called incompetent or malicious?
The only stuff I've ever seen at that level of harshness has come in the opposite direction
 
I distinctly remember a post by Julia Silge a while ago where the comment discussion was focused on people questioning her qualifications as a data scientist
 
Well, I agree that's uncalled for and should be called out at the least
But I'm not sure it's illustrative of the typical treatment the staff receive
 
12:41 PM
I stopped opening the data science month posts usually because the focus is always on how the conclusions are wrong, how the basis is wrong, how real data scientists should know that, and procedural bickering
So you haven't seen the literal dozens of comments accusing tim post of being an ideologue and liar?
 
"how the conclusions are wrong, how the basis is wrong, how real data scientists should know that" - One of those three things is not like the others.
 
Empathizing a bit when I try to see it from tim's perspective (who is also cursed with seeing deleted comments), even from just the stuff I have seen, I can understand him being weary of this place
I'm not innocent on that point either, must admit
 
"So you haven't seen the literal dozens of comments accusing tim post of being an ideologue and liar?" - eh, I guess I've left a couple of these, in fairness (albeit not worded quite that harshly)
 
It's abundantly clear that we need to shake this here place up if we want to keep it
we need the help of mods to do that, however
 
(Though on the point about honesty, it does seem relevant that on the very Meta post we're currently discussing, Tim started with an explanation for the change in the "Why are we doing it?" that, based on Sara Chips's answer, was in fact a lie, in the sense that it simply was not the reason the change was made, at all, and Tim knew that when posting
5
 
12:46 PM
On the finer points, even comments like this:
Seems like a classic case of mistaking correlation for causation. — UniqIdentifierAssignedAtBirth Jun 19 at 17:36
Are more rethorical flourish and less disagreement
 
When you actually know, as a confirmed fact, that somebody is lying to you, it doesn't seem wrong to call them a liar.
4
 
I stopped opening the data science posts because they're all highly flawed with mostly useless conclusions.
 
I re-read tim's post's "why are we doing this" section just now and the worst I could say is some things were omitted
nothing in that is a lie and calling him a liar is unjustified
 
Agreed.
 
It's unfair to turn around and use his want to protect a colleague as evidence of dishonesty in that case
real talk between people experienced on meta, you know damn well if sara had posted that it would have been a smorgasboard of attacks and incivility like no other
 
12:50 PM
What I wonder is how is that supposed to protect anyone ?
 
I commend tim's intuition of not letting that happen
 
Zoe
@Tensibai The change doesn't protect anyone
 
The responses in this chat room justify his desire to not come out and say “meta is too toxic to force employees to participate in”
 
This move just seems to be spilling gasoline on a dying fire, meta community was pretty happy and even defending SE as FR was looked at
3
 
I tried bringing this up awkwardly some months ago
 
12:51 PM
Sounds to me like you're making the case "the lie was done for decent and understandable reasons" - which I will grant is true - rather than the case "it wasn't a lie", @Magisch.
 
I disagree with calling it a lie still
 
And suddenly without warning, there's this choice to remove something which doesn't remotely achieve the declared goal and throw by the window every hope of renewed trust
 
@GeorgeStocker Can you imagine the backlash from something like that?
 
If the response from meta was “wow, we didn’t realize how our disagreement was coming across, how can we operate to ensure our feedback is well received?” It would be different. But instead it was arguments over the danger of panic attacks
 
I can't believe Tim or Sara didn't saw it coming nor that removing HMP would help, so there's something absolutely off int he way this had come to happen
 
12:53 PM
It would make the current post and the reprex post look like well recieved level headed discussions
 
The solution surely is to stop forcing employees to make these changes without and often against the community.
 
@Magisch the irony of course is the backlash proves the problem exists.
 
I'm not a fan of the current change or the direction of the company either but gee whiz
 
Or employee people specifically to communicate with the community, who won't get upset by valid feedback. Like some sort of community manager.
 
@GeorgeStocker I assume I did address this here and was pretty happy to see Fr being reviewed, implemented or just tagged in review
And now, we're back to the "Here how it is, if you have question leave an answer but we won't get back on this decision anyway"
 
12:56 PM
@GeorgeStocker are there plans among the mod team to tighten civility rules on meta?
 
I plan on it. I’ve talked with other moderators and we are still working on what that should mean and how we can clearly articulate in-bounds and out-of-bounds behavior.
As well as giving examples of how you can model feedback to ensure it’s heard and lands
 
@GeorgeStocker If we've got people literally having serious physical medical complications over interacting with Meta, that seems worth discussing and trying to understand, no? I'm not sure why you take that part of the response to be objectionable.
 
If your goal is to yell at a cloud then we can’t do much but be sure you’re not being obscene. If, however, you want to give feedback that is heard and lands, we will help model how that would look
 
But we need some way to ensure yelling at a cloud doesn't drown the rest
It's so easy and tempting
 
we wouldn't have people obscenely yelling at clouds if their reasonable requests had been listened to
4
 
1:00 PM
@MarkAmery it’s hard for me to respond to this on mobile but I did a search for the word “panic” here and the vast majority of responsive were debates on whether that word should be used, whether it was a big deal that it was happening, or being “offended” that they dared to use it.
If I had to gesture broadly at the problem that would be it.
 
Sorry for my interruption here. As a student, I can't quite empathize with officers like the SE CM team, and consequently I am skeptical to what Sara's said. Is anyone aware of any reason why this could happen at the first place? Obliged by occupation to post something on MSO doesn't seem that repressive to me.
 
When someone says “I don’t want to be around you, you’re causing me to have panic attacks” the appropriate response is not to challenge their perspective. It’s to try to understand it and introspect on what you did that could have caused that response. Further, blaming the person who is having a panic attack is not a method to ensure they want to share feedback with you again.
 
but we know the reason for it
it's because SO the company doesn't listen
which causes people to yell loudly and obscenely
 
is it though
there are ways to make displeasure known without inciting panic attacks
just because it's been ignored in the past doesn't mean we should go to be louder and more disruptive because as we've just seen, that is being ignored even harder
 
so essentially you're saying we get ignored either way
 
1:04 PM
@Magisch incidentally, we are currently teaching our 5 year old that being disruptive doesn’t get her the response she wants.
 
so... what is the point?
this seems very much like a case of attempting to shut the door after the horse has long bolted
 
@IanKemp if your takeaway from all of that was being concerned that you’re being ignored I’m not sure we can have further productive conversation about this.
 
Zoe
@IanKemp There is none.
 
If we ever want to not be ignored, this aint the way to do it
 
I have no idea why facing a community around the company's own product is repressive. It's IMO rather different from HK police being pushed to frontline to face protesters.
 
1:05 PM
If you just want to throw your hands up and go "well we're ignored either way, so lets make the people who ignore us miserable" that is ... not great
 
@GeorgeStocker At first place, this answer wouldn't have to use those words if the HMP have been left as is while trust was rebuilding with Fr being worked on. I can't really understand choosing to make this move with the same communication that had already caused a bunch of problem few weeks backs at this precise time
 
I don't think making the staff miserable is anyone's objective, @Magisch
 
It's nonsense. The way to stop forcing people to post on meta is to stop forcing people to post on meta, not to deliberately hide the things they're forced to post.
 
Why the opposition to going back to calm and more level headed arguments then?
 
@Magisch What opposition?
 
1:06 PM
@Magisch because it doesnt have any effect
 
I really feel there's a wish to escalate the relation from SO
 
ranting has only negative effects
so if you choose between no effect and making someone miserable, why?
(also, I don't accept the premise that they're ignoring us on purpose)
 
@GeorgeStocker what should my takeaway be? yeah, it sucks that SO employees are avoiding meta because it gives them panic attacks, but they wouldn't be getting a load of vitriol if their employer wasn't constantly screwing the pooch in regards to community communication
 
@Magisch I'd really want to understand the rationale, as of now, even from Tim and Sara's answers, and considering what I said above I really can't understand
 
a lot of encouraging soul searching has come from their side lately, but we're not even meeting halfway. We're shooting rockets instead
 
1:08 PM
I don't see anyone saying "making the staff miserable is a good thing", @Magisch. Just people saying "the more miserable they make us, the more abrasive we will naturally become and the more miserable we will likely make them, because that's human nature"
3
 
exactly
 
So do you want the network to be better or no?
 
It took me a long time to learn to accept someone else’s position as their position and not try to argue whether it’s “correct” or “incorrect.” Your view is that the company hasn’t listened and that’s why meta got rowdy, or that meta is rowdy and they just have to deal with it, and the other view is that meta is a toxic place to look for feedback. You can try to argue it isn’t but until you accept that perspective exists and is valid then you won’t be able to move forward.
 
If yes, rise above that and make an effort
 
@GeorgeStocker I feel like we're having different arguments here
 
1:10 PM
everyone wants to make the Network better, but most of us aren't equipped properly to.
 
@GeorgeStocker If the staff want to stop seeking feedback on Meta... okay then. They'd mostly done that already
The problem here is not the staff declining to use Meta - it's them going further out of their way to deemphasise it in a way that damages it for the rest of us (and with a rationale that suggests a possible intent of removing it entirely)
 
@GeorgeStocker "This thing is too hot to bake something and I'm burning myself so I'll just throw it a lot of sand to extinguish it instead of taking gloves" ?
You're willing to address a consequence which I don't see any reasonable way to address when the cause of this consequence stays (here the action without concertation before)
 
It's the difference between "I don't like hanging out with you and your friends, it gives me panic attacks, so I'm going to stay away from you unless you can change the way you act", and "I don't like hanging out with you and your friends, it gives me panic attacks, so I'm going to use your power over you to stop you hanging out with them again"
 
@MarkAmery that’s valid to be upset about; but fixing it isn’t getting them to change their minds, it’s showing that the .015% that makes up meta is willing to change how it operates.
 
@GeorgeStocker I'd say a step from Meta had been done before this crazy action of removing HMP: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387370/…
 
1:13 PM
I think the consternation here is the active people on meta don’t want to change. They like the disagreements, the arguments, and the “zings” from being right. I hope I’m wrong.
One recent example is this chat room, scrolling through the history there are countless examples of “im right and they’re wrong so why don’t they just do what I want”
It feels good but being right doesn’t make the world magically work, unlike a computer program.
 
@GeorgeStocker I swear you're wrong for my part, meta.stackoverflow.com/a/387136/3627607, probably from Zoe and Cebrus too according to the post above and Zoe answer here
 
(there are some community representatives who could take the lead of enforcing that, hint) :P
 
Absolutely
 
Some people who were elected for say their reasonableness and skill at de-escalation
 
Change starts with us, the moderators.
 
1:16 PM
that enjoy a great deal of standing among the meta community and could probably enact such a change without massive resistance
 
We need to model the behavior we want and enforce the standards that would make meta a productive place for feedback.
I screwed up by staying away from meta for years because its toxicity got to me
Instead of doing my job and enforcing and modeling better standards of behavior
 
Better late then never
you (collectively) have the tools, the pull, and the standing to do it
 
Practically speaking meta is 0.015% of Stack overflow so I could still moderate and ignore meta, but the practical effect of doing so has had a terrible outcome.
 
As much as I love the idea, I don't see how it could be unless SE take in account the feedback that doing things and telling it afterward is creating more friction than needed.
 
Zoe
@GeorgeStocker I like change. But there's a difference between improving, and ramming something into the ground dunked with gasoline. Improving meta is good, finding a replacement to meta is good, but reducing meta's capacity before it's being improved or replaced is destructive
 
1:19 PM
@Tensibai that’s part of the area where we need to vocalize the landscape has shifted. In 2011, meta was a much larger part of the landscape for SO. Now, they have three products that we aren’t the target audience for and we haven’t realized that
They are a business and need to make money to stay in business. We have power user needs that don’t move that needle at all. We are a much smaller stakeholder than we used to be and we never really realized it until now
 
@GeorgeStocker What I mean is that limiting the toxicity of MSO as you call it can be quite easy by moving slowly from A to B instead of repeatedly trying to be right now at point C
 
@GeorgeStocker I don't get this bit. You're not the only one to suggest this is about money but I'm yet to see that idea well-defended. What do the business needs have to do with a change like this?
 
well then i guess the only solution that will make everyone happy is to copy all the SO content, make our own platform that we can control, and leave SO to drown under the weight of the help vampires it is embracing
 
Even just annoucing "HMP will disappear at August 1st" would have been better received than the actual way it has been done
 
@Tensibai Only marginally, I think
 
Zoe
1:22 PM
@GeorgeStocker Of the 3 million users (excluding active vs inactive) with access to meta, only 1.9 million have access to the basic moderation tools. data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/1080516/1335366
How many of those 0.015% have access to meta, but not mod tools?
 
@MarkAmery I think the opposite, after the fuss of the answer deletion without notice and the FR being worked on, the feedback may have been a bit more constructive
 
that way we get our highly-focused well-curated QA site with all the shiny tools we need
 
And at least there would have been material to side with SE as a "They did listen to what trigger us the worst and are working with it by announcing before the action", here there's nothing, just the same behavior repeating itself and, sadly, this is dismissing the efforts on FR as a casualty :(
 
Zoe
@Zoe yeah, that's not what it says :]
oh well, to late to delete
 
all i've got from this chat so far is that the mods, aka the people we chose to lead us, are choosing to roll over and toe the party line in reaction to the final sidelining of meta, in a misguided belief that somehow being good little boys and girls who simply smile and nod when SO springs the next big thing, is going to be good for the site in the long run
4
 
1:32 PM
@MarkAmery speaking through a business owner lens; why would I spend time trying to placate the .015% of my community that isn’t paying me money when I have limited time and resources when I could spend more time focusing on those customers who are paying me money and being respectful?
 
@IanKemp Now, that's a legit example of incivility
I disagree strongly with George about this stuff, but I don't see any reason to think that he's doing anything but voicing his beliefs honestly as his conscience tells him to
 
@IanKemp Thats not a fair asessment and grossly uncivil towards our mods who are dedicating large swaths of their life and energy towards serving us as representatives and the site as janitors
 
yeah
ok
i'm done
 
@GeorgeStocker The obvious answer would be "they create and curate the content that draws the eyeballs that generate the ad revenue"
My instinct is that from a business perspective, we're actually the most important people to placate
 
Zoe
@IanKemp you got flagged in case you didn't notice
 
1:42 PM
@GeorgeStocker Because without those 0.015% you wouldn't have something to sell to the others and thus no "respectful" customers. If a builder is harsh with he customers because you don't give him the tools to build the house properly and your answer is to fire him, you don't have anymore a builder and no-one to build your customers house, and thus angry customers not getting their house, as an architect that won't help you making money at the end
2
 
A number of comments have focused on how, if something causes us stress or panic, it's up to us to figure out how to deal with that in healthy way instead of making someone else responsible for our feelings.
Read the post. Sara is describing the first, not the second. For reasons anyone may or may not agree with, employees are experiencing a lot of stress, and the response is to reduce contact with the source of that stress.
 
Zoe
@ScottHannen Reducing contact implies less activity on meta from employees, not depriving users who aren't watching meta actively of the chance to participate or read discussions
2
The motivation may be right, but the way it was done is wrong. And not effective if HMP is replaced by a script that adds [featured] to posts by views and score
 
@ScottHannen What I advocate is that the source (meta behavior) won't disappear by not looking at it but exactly by looking at it and acting in a balanced way.
 
@Shog9 Twitter is exactly what you make it; for me it's great because I follow scientists and infosec people and developers. But some of my IRL friends follow meme accounts that just steal each others' jokes for a living, rappers, and tv personalities
We both probably get equal fulfillment
 
@Tensibai I need to write some queries to figure out whether that’s true. Do the 0.015% that make up meta also make up the people who answer questions on the site and participate on the site? If so, that’s a different situation than if the people on meta are on meta because they’re not spending time participating on the site.
Is there a high correlation between participation on meta and participation on SO or an inverse correlation?
 
1:47 PM
@GeorgeStocker I'd be interested in the numbers.
 
we have the numbers and the data (SEDE) we just need to figure it out
 
@Zoe - My comment wasn't addressing HMP. Rather it was the suggestion that by talking about panic attacks, Sara was somehow requiring others to change in response to employees' stress and panic attacks. I read exactly the opposite.
 
I've been pretty quiet on meta before this particular point as well as on main
The recent handling of FR had me look more at main again, with few success on term of what I could be answering but that's something else.
 
What does FR refer to?
 
And this specific move on HMP had break it, so I'm probably more active on meta actually than on main, and will probably just be lurking after
FR= Feature Requests
 
1:51 PM
@SaraChipps @Shog9 I like to think I speak for others-- not just the .015%--when I post on Meta; for what it's worth, I think it might be a good idea to gather a focus group of Meta users and expressly-non-Meta users together to act as an intermediary or sounding board with employees in general, or for specific features/announcements, to talk about the impact, the image, etc. Think of it like part CSM (a la EVE Online), part debate prep (a la politics). I would be happy to volunteer for it.
That solves the issue of 1:many another way -- you now have a few employees talking to a few users.
 
@SaraChipps Have you had a chance to digest all the difference opinions/suggestions you received yesterday? If so, any responses to anything posted?

How about regarding the different answers in that post related to your answer?
 
I'll quote myself "I can't imagine people caring to be on meta are here purely to be snarky or vindicative, but that's a consequence of how we've been considered for the last 3 or 4 years.

So to address your questions, I'm pretty sure that if Stack Exchange really wish it, they can tackle some feature requests, deny some others because too complex or too harsh for new users if they feel so and trust could come back and things would settle."
 
@ScottHannen Again, that characterisation doesn't match what happened. The company response has not been to reduce staff interaction with Meta (which had already happened), but to reduce the visibility of Meta threads for the community. They could've disengaged 100% from Meta without needing to touch HMQ, but that's not what they chose to do.
 
Of course I didn't expressly said that renewing the "Tell after the fact" move was a wrong move as I thought it was something obvious as this was the exact reason the question I answered was made
 
(Ah, sorry, I see that Zoe already made the same point that I just made.)
 
Zoe
1:57 PM
yep.
 
@MarkAmery - Sorry, there are so many thoughts in these comments that it's probably difficult to tell what I'm referring to. I don't exactly know what the correlation is between removing HMP and reducing panic attacks, if any. My point is just that Sara was describing an action on her end to reduce that stress (whether or not it makes sense - I don't know.) Back at the top of this thread some comments suggested that it's up to us to figure out how to deal with stress in a healthy way.
 
Zoe
@ScottHannen There is no correlation
 
@ScottHannen I think all this comes from the fact the term "Panick Attack" is pretty hard and seems to describe something far above stress, is it just a colloquialism for stress, an hyperbole or literal description has kind of derived the subject
I took it as an illustration and not literal panick attack but I can understand people concerned by it in their relations literally finding it off and needing to be deal with on other venues.
I don't think anyone would say meta is kind and cuddling actually, but we're a bunch to have proposed approches to break that circle and get the overall mood to someting better. The way HMP has been removed and the renewal of the "Employees fear meta so we're going to change you by force" has just relaunched a bad cycle :'(
 
now, I don't think that's fair.
- We removed this highly used feature without even considering established community, and we are now informing you, and not even giving the real cause for it
- But why did you do it like that?, why ignore us?
- See?, your reaction to confirm that we were right
 
@Tensibai - i could understand that conclusion, except she mentioned panic attacks and nightmares, effectively doubling down. Those are very descriptive words which communicate something. Whether or not it's literal, I'd take it to mean extreme stress. I'm not in their shoes, but when someone says that I tend to take it at face value.
 
2:10 PM
@Lamak that's the main point of my post: 'Why, if you are aware of this issue, do you continue to push out changes, without at the very least, consulting the community?'
 
@ScottHannen this is a question I’d pose to everyone in this room: if you want to be heard, why do you not listen when someone tells you they’re experiencing extreme stress when interacting with you? What good does it do to try to parse whether they are being literal or figurative?
 
@ScottHannen So then why doing something known to create even more hostile feedback now ? why not letting things settle down a bit and taking actions differently ?
 
@Tensibai @Tensibai The thing is... Meta usually is pretty friendly. In 99% of threads you've got a relaxed atmosphere and cheerful, gracious banter. Even when we disagree, we typically do so cordially and respectfully. Failures in that regard only started happening when we started getting staff communications - like this one - that begin with the premise that we are bad, nasty people who need to cracked down on, which inevitably provokes anger.
 
@MarkAmery The dreaded double-ping
 
@TylerH Alas, I am not very good at Chat
 
2:13 PM
Np :)
 
@GeorgeStocker because, this isn't communicated to us. For example, what was the reason @TimPost gave us as opposed to what @SaraChipps gave us? What to believe? Why hide reasons from the beginning? Don't you want meta to change? If so, communicate with us. Meta really isn't that harsh. I've said this before and I'll say it again, if someone is being abusive and I mean actually abusive (going against CoC), deal with them appropriately. Don't just hide from the problems.
 
@MarkAmery I'm considering meta comm with SE staff there :) burnination requests, ask for improvement etc. are out of play, as SE staff don't read them anyway so they've no idea how it evolves there
 
@GeorgeStocker How does "listening" cash out? Sure, I'm disturbed by the prospect of panic attacks being caused by Meta. What am I meant to do about it? Especially if questioning what caused that or how it can be prevented just attracts a response of "aha, you see! You're questioning the panic attacks! This is an example of why you're evil people who cause panic attacks!" rather than anything actionable.
2
 
@GeorgeStocker but…that was communicated yesterday…and the community has being tried to be heard for years
 
With all due respect to your good intentions, it seems to me your side currently has ours in a Catch-22 where any action or inaction we take can either be taken as further cruelty or as callous indifference, and nothing we do actually seems like to result in us getting useful advice. But I would welcome whatever such advice you have.
19
 
2:19 PM
@GeorgeStocker I do listen, but it's not for me to take action on it. The responsibility is on the person (employee or not) to remove themselves from the stressful situation. If I am feeling extreme stress in a conversation I will communicate this and then leave. If their manager is forcing them to continue then it's an internal HR matter.
 
@GeorgeStocker Well, I'd like to ask you, did I dismissed the stress and not proposed a course of action to reduce its cause ? Am I that off the line of understanding ?
 
@IanKemp you seem to have confused "one mod" for "the mods"
(and we didn't choose our mods to lead us)
especially one mod very explicitly arguing his own personal opinion
 
@AndrasDeak In some way we trust them to be the arbiter between us, so that's kind of leading. and leading by example is something we're told to do in the mod agreement IIRC
 
We were elected; with all the intendant advantages and disadvantages of democracy.
 
Sure, it's all coupled. But if you had to assign ideal mod qualities, "good leader" would score much worse than "wise", "just" and "eager to do thankless janitorial work".
2
I don't want my mods to know what's best for the site, but as it happens they often do. What I do want is that they assess what passes as community consensus (with a hint of official instructions) and police our sites accordingly.
 
2:27 PM
@MarkAmery I don’t represent a “side”, in this inasmuch as I see the problem from both ends and am working to help change the parts I can through setting the example, moderation, and communication.
 
If "meta is here to stay" vs. "meta should be hamstrung in some way" is not a dichotomy then nothing is
 
To get to the meat of your question, “what can we do at this point to have a constructive resolution”, I think there are a few things:
 
@AndrasDeak It sounds like a false dichotomy to me
 
okay
 
1. Moderators need to explain what’s out of bounds on meta, model the behavior that’s constructive, and enforce those standards.
2. Participants on meta need to work on how they express disagreement. You and I may disagree, but a point by point refutation or debate serves no one.
It may seem fun but it ends up being non-constructive in the comments.
 
2:29 PM
I mean...honestly, with the comments that @SaraChipps made about meta, why even keep it?...why not just remove it completely?...
 
it's not Sara's call as it is not anyone else's single call
 
@Lamak For tags burnination maybe ?
 
@Tensibai yeah, I mean, because then the community helps somehow (for free)
 
3. moving “discussion” to chat and keeping meta for Q&A may help in this regard. The comments were never a good place to express disagreement in long form
 
RE: 0.015% active on meta, what percentage of total accounts / anonymous accounts is actually active? 0.015% of 100% accounts is not much, but 0.015% of 30% active account (even if only posting once a year) is really not the same thing.
3
 
2:31 PM
@Lamak I imagine even the meta-sensitive employees might consider meta as a tumor growing on SO, but one that's not easily operable
 
But clearly the underlying statement is that our feedback on SE features/changes doesn't worth the bits they are stored with. (well, at least that's how I perceive it)
 
nobody should be myopic enough to think that shutting down meta would help anything
 
Pushing more, if we take active as interacting with the site in meaningful ways at least once per day, what percentage of the total accounts is actually there?
 
@GeorgeStocker What, to your eyes, is wrong with typical comment arguments on Meta? I generally find them valuable under my posts, and frequently learn things or realise I'm proposing something misguided. I'd find them going away a terrible loss.
 
@Tensibai that has always been the case
 
2:32 PM
@AndrasDeak of course it is...they have been ignoring it for years except some janitorial work, and finding bugs
 
4. Learning how to give feedback. Lara Hogan has a great technique for this: larahogan.me/blog/what-are-you-optimizing-for
 
@Tensibai it turned out that whenever something happened for the community it was an illusion, because someone in the company wanted to make it happen
 
@AndrasDeak I disagree, some things have been tweaked after community feedback, years ago
 
Zoe
ninja'd
 
damn, couldn't edit before time window
 
2:33 PM
George could perhaps do it for you, considering it's starred
 
I would agree with it.
 
(just to prevent false rumors from spreading)
 
@Magisch To be fair, they posted one on teaching after interviewing 8 people and presented it in a way that seemed to imply a larger base and never answered questions from educators on this site about whether they considered the implications of training methodologies (what I use in industry), versus teaching methodologies (what I use for freshman-senior college students). That needs to be challenged cause the data though good for direction is not rigorous or even very complete.
 
@GeorgeStocker - when I re-read my post, I realize that my words aren't as clear as they could be, and it's possible to read them in different ways. But my point was pretty much what you said. It doesn't matter whether the panic attacks and nightmares are literal. They depict stress - the sort of stress that makes us sick, makes us dread getting up and going to work.
This was described as a symptom of, not one person, but multiple.
That's a clear signal to me to forget about HMP for a moment and look at a bigger picture. I'm not saying their stress = you're bad. I'm not drawing any conclusi
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier and done ;) (Thanks, George)
 
2:35 PM
:) (thanks indeed!)
 
22 mins ago, by Tensibai
@ScottHannen So then why doing something known to create even more hostile feedback now ? why not letting things settle down a bit and taking actions differently ?
 
Zoe
@Tensibai To prove a point?
(Aka "Who would've known removing a feature without asking first would result in negative feedback?")
 
After the fuss the answer removal has been ?
 
I mean if you go to the matlab, Python, or R chatrooms and ask "anyone here an educator?" your going to get a pretty decent sample there but this was never done (or anything except finding 8 teachers they liked apparently)
 
or you'll hear "Is there more to your question? What are you trying to ask?" :P
 
2:37 PM
I can't believe it hasn't been thought of before deciding to make it. This can't be a "one more communication misstep"
(or I'm paranoid about it, which may be the case)
 
Hanlon's razor has been mentioned multiple times here, no need to be paranoid
 
Zoe
There's too much that's off
 
Consider Shog's comments last night, this seems like SE the company is just dead-set on removing meta. Which would honestly mean I'd (and others) would have to remove one more reason we come to SO - I'm not left with many reasons right now honestly
 
@Zoe Still doesn't prove anything. Imagine a chicken without a head running around the courtyard spraying blood everywhere.
@JGreenwell which comments? I haven't had time to thoroughly read all the popcorn
 
@AndrasDeak I can't tax Tim nor Sara of stupidity as communication is their work somewhow, so mentioning Hanlon's razor seems either a bit insulting or complotist.
 
Zoe
2:41 PM
@AndrasDeak Um, what?
 
@Tensibai I have no idea what the latter means. The situation is bad. The question is whether it's intentional (-> due to malice) or accidental (-> due to ignorance or lack of foresight). I believe Hanlon applies.
 
One of my colleagues (who's no found of SO) told me once this kind of site can't work without a core of dedicated users moderating it on strict rules... I think he was right
 
SO is too "strongly typed" to survive not being itself - for a year it's been trying to be something else... that won't last.
 
@AndrasDeak all of last night actually but it starts around the below quote:
14 hours ago, by Shog9
But it has been ten years, a long era on the Internet, and nothing lasts forever.
 
@Tensibai What they're really saying is that they want to lower the quality of the site even more. Because I really don't see what unreasonable with the asking rules.
 
2:47 PM
@AndrasDeak Let's be extra clear then, applying Hanlon's razor means it's accidental, probably a lack of foresight, for the answer deletion I buy it, repeating it with HMP is "bizarre"
@Script47 No, he's not found of the gamification system, but reckon the quality of Q and A can't be achieved without strict rules. (I probably didn't convey this point correctly)
 
@Tensibai Did you ever prompt them regarding how the quality can be maintained without the strict rules? Because, I guess, that's what SO is really looking (I think).
 
@Script47 He's saying without peoples to enforce the quality, things goes to crappy, which is the case in our internal chats, github issues etc.
He's not advocating for loosening rules, but that we don't have internally the equivalent of "SO core users" to achieve the same level of quality
 
Catch 22, we need people to enforce the rules which the new users don't like. The enforcers get put in between a rock and a hard place. Enforce? Get vilified. Don't enforce? End up with Quora or some other site like that (years of effort wasted).
 
(this last point is the really relevant one finally)
 
@Tensibai Sorry, I misread your original comment: 'but reckon the quality of Q and A can't be achieved without strict rules.' as 'but reckon the quality of Q and A can be achieved without strict rules.' hence my confusion.
 
2:57 PM
I'm going to allow for the possibility that I'm completely oblivious. It wouldn't be the first time. And, taking my own advice, I don't want to discount what a lot of people are saying. But I haven't seen where welcoming = loosening the rules. If there's an intent to provide help that resembles tutoring, I haven't seen an indication that it means loosening the rules, either. The clearest direction I've seen is that the UX will change how "negative" feedback is communicated.
 
@Zoe if you cut the head off a chicken it will happily keep running around without any particular aim. There may be "too much that's off" but it might merely be the lack of organization, and one part of the company not knowing what the other does
 
Zoe
oh
 
@Tensibai bizarre maybe, but perhaps you overestimate the cognitive hivemind of the company
Tim, specifically, should see these coming, but it's easily possible that he's not the one making the calls
 
@AndrasDeak They are the same base (both anxiety disorders) but yes - feel way different
 
@JGreenwell :(
 
3:02 PM
@AndrasDeak As I can't believe it's malice, I'll take that as my answer :)
 
6 years, 2 deployments - there is a reason I now teach/train instead of dealing with high-anxiety inducing industry (though when deadlines come up on grants..... ;)
 
I know...
 
@ScottHannen there has been a lot of talk about loosening the friction between askers/answers and curators, which can easily turn into loosening the rules. but loosening the rules isn't the only way loosen the friction between askers/answers and curators... it is my understanding that they're looking for/working on things that will do so without loosening the rules.
 
@JGreenwell thanks
I don't want to keep Shog in the city
 
@KevinB - Yes, that more accurately describes what I've seen. It's hard for me to see that as anything other than a good thing. There might be some missteps. And if change induces some anxiety in people who have invested a lot of effort in the site's content, then that anxiety comes from a good place too. People who complain are people who care.
 
3:12 PM
If i can vote to close an off topic question and know that it will be deleted within a few months regardless of whether or not someone answers it (assuming it doesn't amass a bunch of votes, marking it as "useful"), that's what i'm hoping for. but the current situation where such questions get answered, the op and answerer trade upvotes, the useless question stays around... and that undermines the curator's task/goal of removing low quality content.
2
if it weren't for that, i wouldn't care that people are answering them.
 
therapist: and what do we do when we're feeling stressed? - Me: we remove HMP for all. - therapist: no.
 
well they tried it with IPS HNQ first ;)
 
I wish the title of this wasn't so large, it pushes all but one of the stars off screen
 
@KevinB Zoom out
 
that's ugly
 
3:16 PM
@KevinB Change the title in your browser's dev tools :P
 
use a 50" screen like normal people
 
that works
just adblock it, now it's a guessing game as to what room i have selected
 
you can just tell from all the >:( faces here
 
i mean, lets be real, js chat is dead now, so it's easy to tell
 
3:25 PM
@KevinB - Would it be feasible to tag questions for cleanup so that they get removed anyway? It's not the ideal scenario. Best case is no one answers it. But what if they do? Suppose a post could be marked for deletion after a week or two? That's not a substitute for downvotes and closure, but a supplement, a second line of defense. If something that shouldn't get answered does, the harm is mitigated if it disappears later.
 
closed questions can be deleted after 2 days at most, which you surely know
 
yes, you can vote to delete questions
good luck with that
i'd rather a solution that doesn't require a chat room to function
 
we could have a place where such meta-information is discussed but OH WAIT :P
 
Start with improving the way we display/provide criticism/feedback (the current project,) then encourage more people to do so through changes like the one that improved the visibility of comment flagging tools. I don't think we'll ever get to the point of encouraging people to use downvotes, but if we can at least get people to use close votes, that's something that can be worked with.
 
@KevinB - that's a conclusion I came to. I'm bad at providing negative feedback. Two things will make me more likely to downvote or close. One is knowing that the feedback is presented in a friendlier way. There's only so much to be done with that, but we're at the end of the spectrum where there's plenty of room to improve.
 
3:39 PM
Say we started presenting information correctly, people were being less harsh but questions were still being closed, do you think people would stop complaining? IMHO, people will keep complaining until they get their answer.
 
The other is having somewhere to send people, even if it's not a good place. I'd much rather say, "That's not the sort of question we ask here. Ask it there instead." If it's a good question that just doesn't fit Stack Overflow I might even follow it over and answer it there. I might choose to give an answer that looks more like a tutorial. "Bad" questions are like water or electricity. They're going to go somewhere. You can't make them disappear. You have to send them somewhere.
 
@Script47 that's why i'd also want to make the roomba more... more. i want it to delete more. I don't want an answer on a low quality question to prevent the low quality question from being deleted if it isn't fixed after 30 days. but until then, that friction will persist.
2
i doubt the asker or the answerer will care if it's deleted after 30 days, they've either got an answer or have moved on.
 
4:13 PM
In a few days, they'll claim it was all part of a giant experiment to measure the reactions of users when facing contradicting signals; they'll publish a data science blog about it and return HMP to us.
3
 
4:25 PM
@Cœur FTFY:

In a few days, they'll claim it was all part of a giant experiment to measure the reactions of users when facing contradicting signals; they'll publish a data science blog about it.
 
4:37 PM
lol
 
5:15 PM
Woo, that's a lot of chat messages to read ...
Anyway, has any employee clarified as to what exactly constitutes a constructive way to provide negative feedback?
Asking this because I am genuinely interested to know as well. The last time around, when I posted my answer to the tumbleweed meta, I was informed that my answer was tangential, redundant and should never have been posted there... :\
2
 
I'd imagine that the obvious things apply (e.g. don't be a jerk), but that doesn't begin to get at the heart of the issue - there is apprehension with posting to Meta
I'm still trying to think through how to express my thoughts on this but effectively, we could be as nice as possible in regards to our feedback about not liking a thing but it doesn't deal with the apprehension apparent
 
they will return HMP half year later and with a single slot. Like it was with IPS HNQ
 
5:38 PM
@BhargavRao Nothing since Jon's Attempt last year - the fact that this is still a struggle a year out also points to how much of a gap there is to bridge right now
which looking at Joe Friend's response also might point to some of the reason he left his job at SE (not assuming MS pays better or what-have-you just that he's a good PM but didn't want do deal with the massive level of strife) and how SE employee's see us (I still hold to my answers in the comments though as it is a very insulting answer to me - a year later).
 
@BhargavRao well, I'll take the blame there, since I believe I said that to you. It was tangential, but at the same time we didn't have any other post on meta where we set aside space for the discussion - so lots of folks (not just you) assumed the data post was the announcement post and responded accordingly. That was on us.
Now... Some folks left responses that were neither criticisms of the change itself nor particularly useful commentary on the data or analysis. That's on them.
Honestly... One of the things that concerns me about this change is that we're potentially setting ourselves up for even more of this: with all announcements going to the blog, there's an even better chance that random employees are gonna get waylaid in other contexts with concerns about those announcements. I don't know what (if any) plans we have to mitigate that. So... We're just gonna have to wait and see what happens.
As for how best to provide constructive critiques... I'm definitely not the right person to provide such a thing, I'm terrible at doing this. Jon's write-up (which JGreenwell linked above) is probably the best we have.
 
5:59 PM
@Shog9 I'm tellin ya. Generic Employee account/interface for making Meta posts
 
that doesn't really fix the problem, it just hides the person being hurt
 

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