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user3956566
6:03 AM
@Makoto it was a good response. I truly hope you stay. I don't like it either, but I can't leave. I still love the site at it's core.
 
¯_(ツ)_/¯
 
I might be privileged to primarily be a user of other SE sites, not SO.
 
user3956566
@rene flower pot man! good to see you
 
@jpmc26 you're welcome
 
So although I absolutely feel for SO's pain, I can only watch on the sidelines.
 
6:04 AM
@YvetteColomb I'm here for the drama ;)
 
user3956566
@forest SO is very different from the other sites. I've participated extensively on other sites as well. SO is my first love
 
user3956566
@rene it's surprisingly sedate
 
It feels to me a bit like /b/.
Like the wild west.
@rene Well, we're trying to keep it on-topic right now. ;)
 
user3956566
@forest when we get over the original shock of our changed position on the site, we can convert this room into a meta chat room.
 
user3956566
probably better to keep it focused on the issue at hand for a while. help people process
 
6:07 AM
heh
 
I have a corollary question to this. If the removal of HMP was intended to dissuade people from going to meta, how is changing to using featured tags stopping that? Presumably whatever policy the community settles on will have something interesting about meta to show in the sidebar most times.
So if anything the fact that it's hand picked and bug reports / burn requests probably won't be on there as much anymore would make meta more interesting and increase clickthrough rate, not reduce it, no?
 
user3956566
@Magisch I don't think it was. The issue I brought up in the post is separate. The fact the team removed the HMP without community consultation is something we need to get used to
 
user3956566
Even the mods had no sway over it
 
I don't like that level of apathy.
 
user3956566
@Magisch I really don't know. I'm trying to get my head around it
 
6:13 AM
Probably time to just stop and find another site somewhere else to do things
 
@YvetteColomb Something Makoto said helped crystallize what I thought was wrong with what you've been saying.
 
user3956566
@Magisch a wait and see approach is more promising. after all, we're a tthe point of nothing to lose
 
The algorithm that picked the posts wasn't deemed ideal for whatever reason. The hope is humans are better in making the decisions what should be put on every page of SO proper. That might backfire. We'll see in 6 to 8 weeks.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 ah I see. I viewed us as community driven
 
user3956566
@rene and we're still working out what to feature
 
6:16 AM
@rene So the reason outlined in Sara's locked post is false?
 
@YvetteColomb I think what I'm saying is that while we've been more community driven in the past, the community has also had very little real power.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I see. I thought the community originally ruled the site
 
@YvetteColomb I still think if the mod team was sufficiently motivated they could force the company to change course tomorrow
"Stop doing this or we all resign" becomes a "stop doing this or your business goes down the toilet"
 
user3956566
@Magisch we cannot. Trust me. we've tried everything. threatening to leave. nada, we have as much say as you do. We have more power within what the site does, but no say in what actually happens to the site
 
@YvetteColomb I also think that, in general, even community decisions were driven primarily by trying to apply the general tone of the rules given by SO. SO has always set the overall approach; the community only filled in details.
 
user3956566
6:18 AM
I hope we don't lose people. It will be a wait and see honestly. People are waiting to see what happens
 
@YvetteColomb We probably will. The most appealing thing about SE was always the flat hierachy and the community governance
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 probably and also the site had such a small community to begin with.
 
A lot of people have already left (on other sites, I don't know about SO).
 
user3956566
@Magisch ofc
 
user3956566
@forest we'd have to ask the team
 
6:19 AM
It's a bit like wikipedia in that sense. And now it's becoming more like twitter or reddit where a lot of people make data driven decisions that are opaque for interested users and do not lend themselves to the SE model
If people stop being interested in site governance, they'll stop doing all the work SE doesn't have to pay content moderators for, which bigger sites have to pay for
 
@Shog9 I'm interested in the root cause leading to that observation. Is that something you can share / elaborate on?
@forest I'm not here to argue about what is right, left or wrong. This is just my personal observation / opinion and I'm not going to defend it if anyone claims it is wrong.
 
Ah ok
 
@Shog9 Taking this as true (it probably is), why is the approach to rub further salt into the wound? Methinks that doesn't go anywhere towards rebuilding anything. You could make ridiculously nice and well thought out changes every week for the next year, you'd still get nothing but hate for it, and would continue so. People aren't feeling taken seriously, why is the idea to simply stop talking? That has never worked in the history of any community, afaik.
People would be infinitely more sympathethic and understanding if the dirty laundry was aired and the process was transparent, with all its flaws, then this, which is the worst of both worlds
2
 
@Magisch I'm actually at peace with the fact that Sara actually told us the real reason for why this was done. In my mind, that's transparency enough for what happened.
We might not agree, but at least this is a conversation starter. We don't have to assume motive or anything; we have a problem domain right in front of our face and an opportunity to address it.
 
@Makoto Sure, this is probably the real explaination. The question is what is next? I think next might be the sped up collapse of the platform, which is annoying to me
 
6:32 AM
Yeah, you see, that statement falls right back into the trap of assuming motive
 
I like this here and like to spend time on it, and I'm convinced the current direction they're going in is a road straight to becoming the next quora but less searchable
 
I do too and I too am concerned about what's going on with the direction of the platform - hell, I've been harping on for a consistent scope for the site for years now
 
@Magisch The phoenix is born out of the ashes of its mother. Maybe it should collapse.
 
but assuming that it's going to turn into X or be in Y state is counterproductive IMO to the discussion at hand; a feature was removed because the feedback on Meta is brutal. Natural next question? Why brutal?
 
The motive is actually irrelevant. The current direction seems to be alienating the few people that make this here even work at unsustainable rates. The entire Stack exchange system is dependant on people donating free time to curate it. By the time they're all gone, there won't be anything that can be done
 
6:34 AM
@Magisch The motive is relevant in that it can be used to predict future actions.
 
@forest Hello sunshine and rainbows. lol.
 
if meta is 0.15% of the userbase then that's a sorry state of affairs that desperately needs increasing
 
@Magisch But does it though??
 
@Magisch It's much larger if you don't count random people with no rep.
 
yes, it does
 
6:35 AM
What percentage would satisfy?
 
everyone that cares about the site beyond getting answers or asking drive by questions
 
...and if that number turns out to actually be 0.15%?
 
unless they or you have a better idea for a place to coordinate community action
 
@Makoto Then 100% of users are regulars and quality contribuers. Problem solved!
 
Then something needs to be done to increase that number
 
6:36 AM
Sure, but...increasing a number for the sake of increasing a number rings hollow to me @Magisch
 
this site lives or dies on engaged users. I don't think they can automate moderation at scale using an algorhitm, so they're stuck relying on people who care
 
@Magisch I'd advise against falling for the trap that numbers are the most important thing.
 
We want more people to participate and engage on the non-Q&A side of the site, which is a hard sell even in the most sunshiny part of town
Most people really want to just get an answer and call it good
 
right
 
And I honestly don't think that's a problem.
 
6:38 AM
But why for everything that is holy is the company currently engaged in a strategy that alienates those few people at record rates
 
Not everyone needs to care about the "community" to help the site.
 
If you knew why, would you be at peace with the answer?
 
@forest But they do need to care about the long term value of their question. Most people don't.
 
Note that I'm half-sleepy and should be in bed by now, half curious to find out how deep this rabbit hole goes
 
getting someone to do close reviews and not hating it isn't even a soft sell, thats a gaseous one
 
6:39 AM
@Makoto It goes all the way through to China and eventually comes out on the dark side of the moon.
 
@jpmc26 Sure, and I think that even new or drive by users should respect the site's culture and norms and ensure their questions are high-quality, but that doesn't mean they need to learn about the meta communities.
 
@Makoto Probably, if only in a "someone else hurry up and make a competitor already so I can leave" kind of way
 
@jpmc26 I could use that technology to get some mining bots over to Mercury and get to work on that Dyson sphere project I've got as a poster faster, then. I'm buckling in for this one. :D
@Magisch If all you're looking for is a reason to justify the divorce, then haven't you already committed to it? To be fair, this is the same paradox I find myself in; I want to see what else is out there but I want to be sure that the site isn't going in a direction I support.
 
I mean, going down the drain can turn things around and in a positive direction
 
Go on
 
6:42 AM
Time to reboot the internet and start over from arpanet?
 
right now, there exists no other place where I can get what I'm getting here. If SO deteriorates sufficiently, then either financial necessities could force a change of course, or something else can emerge and supplant it
 
@forest Collateral damage for a world in which Facebook can't exist...I could almost live with that.
 
@Makoto I don't think Magisch is looking for a reason to justify it. Rather, they're trying to figure out where they stand so they can actually make an informed decision. They don't know what to do, largely imo because SO has been so focused on a set of values that's so beyond the pale it's difficult to come to grips with them.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, same.
No answer feels satisfactory, no solution feels complete, no decision feels well-informed
 
Being brutally honest, I'm unsure if this is the same pattern I've seen time and time again where management gets weary of its community because of philosophical and political differences and tries to change people in it, and ends up tanking everything in the process
 
6:44 AM
Quite literally purgatory for an engineer
 
or if they actually have stats and analysis that supports their direction they haven't shared
Everything that comes out of there reeks of justification of an ulterior motive and I've seen it a dozen or so times already, so pardon my extreme skepticism
if it's the former, the only way to course correct is for it to become financially untenable or for someone else to just make it obsolete
 
Sure, it's a natural reaction to be skeptical
 
@Magisch What if they have actual stats and analysis, but the analysis depends on unverified base assumptions that are rooted in philosophical and political differences? ...And no, I'm not asking that hypothetically or as a joke, despite the fact it almost certainly sounds like I am.
 
I just don't see how it actually gives you any relief.
 
@jpmc26 Then its the former. The road to hell is paved with good intentions
 
6:47 AM
@Makoto Watching a loved one die slowly over the course of years can be more painful than a traumatic but quick tragedy.
 
Wikipedia is in its very own version of that right now
@Makoto depending on what it is the way to fix it changes
 
Really? I thought Wikipedia was doing fine.
 
I expect "What does hot meta have to do with internal viewing" has been covered already. I'll have to read the transcript later...
 
Back to the main topic at hand, I expect removing HMP to backfire hard
 
@jpmc26 Depends on how you deal with it. My last surviving grandmother has Alzheimer's and dementia, and over the last, what, seven years, it was tough to watch and go through that. At some point in time, you learn to accept what's happening and what you can and cannot change, and at least be at peace. It may not be what you want, but it's better than being frustrated about it all the time.
 
6:49 AM
HMP was full of mostly uninteresting procedure + a few interesting posts. Now it's just going to be interesting posts, and our mods are probably utterly uninterested in filtering out negative discussions
 
That's not a bad thing.
 
So instead of occasionally having negative discussions in the sidebar, it's going to be mostly negative discussions in the sidebar
 
Here's my prediction. SE will realize that their plan backfired, and take even more drastic measures, and people will see even further just how out of touch staff really are.
2
 
@Magisch also older posts perhaps
 
@Magisch I disagree. I expect mods won't feature much of anything. We'll probably just see more burn requests or something.
 
6:50 AM
@forest sounds like business as usual
 
Like yesterday, the first thing the new system did was broadcast to every user how SO facilitates facebook spying on you
 
And what's wrong with that?
 
from a PR perspective, you couldn't have a more exemplary case of "well that backfired"
 
It's a serious issue and it's good that it got nearly 1k positive votes.
 
@forest the unintended end doesn't justify the means :P
 
6:51 AM
@Magisch Um... I legitimately do not think SO is considering their PR at all.
 
You reckon? SO Is a corporation
 
@jpmc26 there are "business constraints"
 
They do care about PR. That's what all the "welcoming" bullshit is.
Because that's the new fad. Codes of conduct. "Inclusiveness".
 
@forest I disagree. I think they actually believe it.
 
Really?
Damn they're out of whack with reality.
 
6:53 AM
@forest perhaps twitter was a red herring and it was twitter-using employees that felt unwelcome on meta <3
 
I'm unsure. I don't think most of the staff I know have it in them to just lie about believing something like that. I think it's a legit effort
 
Yes, really. Just read the blog posts. Their replies on Meta. You can't alienate your community that hard without buying into it.
 
My assumption was always that the people who made the decisions did so for PR, and the rest of the staff just drunk the kool aid.
 
Tim is many things and I disagree with him frequently but he's not a liar or dishonest
 
@forest for the record inclusiveness is great, they just suck at it
 
6:54 AM
I'm 100% convinced of this
 
That's why I don't think they're considering PR. This is something they actually think will make the world better, and they're focused on actually achieving that rather than how the world sees them from the outside.
 
@AndrasDeak What they are doing isn't inclusiveness.
 
@Magisch I mostly agree
 
Inclusive means you won't be turned down based on something irrelevant.
 
@forest my point exactly
 
6:55 AM
Meritocracy is inclusiveness because it cares about nothing but merit.
It cares not about class, or gender, or age.
The compiler never throws a warning because of someone's political views.
But their "inclusiveness" is putting noobs who don't care about learning above experts.
Which breaks the meritocratic operations innate to programming communities.
 
@forest seemingly
 
meritocracy itself is not an accepted given
 
@forest Of course. The entire social movement is like that. It's all straight up class warfare, even if you have to create new "classes."
 
Might not be intended as such.
 
you probably know this and are soapboxing, but opinions stray far insofar as how much meritocracy is possible or even desirable
 
6:57 AM
Most people who criticize meritocracy are referring to people using it as an excuse to oppress people. That's not meritocracy. And no, this isn't soap boxing, and I know that some people dislike it, but usually because they feel, like SE, that expertise and knowledge is somehow subjective.
 
And assuming intentional harm rather than incompetence is why they call meta toxic. Try to stick to measurable things.
 
I think one of the pain points is that the SO community in aggregate is very conservative compared to the company
 
I don't see why western politics is relevant.
 
@AndrasDeak ? No one is assuming intentional harm. forest is assuming incompetence. As am I. Just incompetence at the level of thinking class warfare will actually solve anything.
 
Exactly. Incompetence can lead to severe problems without those problems being desired.
 
6:59 AM
"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
 
@jpmc26 assuming that 'their "inclusiveness" is putting noobs who don't care about learning above experts' sounds otherwise
 
@AndrasDeak How does that imply malice?
 
@jpmc26 yeah, Hanlon's razor (ironic)
 
To me, it implies a misunderstanding of the problems inclusiveness are supposed to solve. It's bad to oppress $group for things unrelated to programming. Oppression makes people feel unwelcome. Noobs who care nothing about helping the community feel welcome. Therefore, we need to include them and anyone who fights that is an oppressor.
 
@forest I guess intention is in the eye of the beholder. But SO has very toxic goggles
 
7:01 AM
@AndrasDeak It's the age old conflict between equal opportunities and equal outcomes. I assume most people on both sides have good intentions, regardless of the actual outcomes.
 
(I'm all for equal opportunities here. Equal outcomes only for what is needed to survive.)
 
I fundamentally believe most people are incapable of acting in bad faith
and most conflicts come about from people acting in good faith assuming other people act in bad faith
 
I think people do act in bad faith all the time, but typically for very mild things.
 
I just see a difference between "all useful people should be welcome" (what SO wants) vs "all people must be welcome regardless of their attitude, plus overcompensate all the things" (which seems to be the implementation). Latter is not a goal.
 
E.g. children lying about who took the cookies.
 
7:04 AM
In any case, I don't believe this change to meta is all that bad. If anything, it might have inadvertendly been a step in the right direction
 
@Magisch That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be upset about it.
 
This is not the sith empire being extra angry does not grant you power
 
A madman who stabs someone might end up saving their life because the doctor notices a tumor while treating them. That doesn't mean said madman should be considered a hero.
 
@AndrasDeak While I won't assert that they actually adhere to the extremity of the latter position fully, I believe they're much closer than you would like to believe. See back earlier in the chat where I linked to Ericson's blog calling a comment condescending when it pointed out major security and production risks with a question's desired approach and offered an alternative.
 
I read that one. I was appalled.
Since I work in the infosec industry, I would have done the exact same.
 
7:06 AM
so political differences, then.
this is a politically extremely charged time
 
And hearing people say that pointing that out is an issue is... horrifying.
 
@forest why?
 
@Magisch Because security issues must not be treated like normal bugs.
If someone is about to introduce a bug, you don't say "hey, maybe this is not a good idea".
You say STOP, NOW. DON'T DO THAT.
 
@Magisch We're talking logs-passwords-in-plain-text and brings-down-the-server kind of behavior here. A stern warning is completely warranted, and the comment in question was barely even stern.
 
it's only broken code, not life and death
 
7:09 AM
Are you part of the "all bugs are just bugs" philosophy then?
 
@Magisch It might be bank accounts. Maybe not death, but that's pretty darn bad.
 
Because "only broken code" has resulted in many people's deaths.
As well as severe financial loss.
 
I'm part of the "this is where society is going in all fields, so better make peace with it" field
 
@Magisch So relaxed apathy? I mean, I am kind of hoping that we'll eventually get to a better place on this stuff.
 
We're in the same boat as every other person at any point in history. As we get older, the things we know and philosophies we adhere to become unacceptable, and going with the flow feels wrong somehow, yet
 
7:10 AM
Tell that to the people with Bluetooth-controlled pacemakers.
 
water doesn't care if you like where it's flowing
 
@Magisch But water will respect you if you force it with a dam.
 
water, much like people in aggregate, behave like a force and not a sentient person. A force doesn't respect anything
 
@Magisch You previously told me that you doubt the morality of hanging out with people who hoard 0days, but now you're treating security issues with the same apathy that they do.
 
@Magisch I'm not sure how that translates to, "Let's just let everyone drown." I don't see a problem with plugging the leaks right in front of you.
 
7:11 AM
@jpmc26 I admire your optimism but do not share it.
 
"Well if Google didn't want me to sell this RCE to the Saudi Arabian government, Google should have offered me a higher price than UAE."
 
@Magisch I'm not an optimist. I've never been so insulted in all my life. =) But industry and production is one of the few things we have seen get its stuff together as time passes for the past 100 years.
 
@jpmc26 yeah, thanks, I'll have to read the transcript later
 
The totality of shaping opinion and viewpoints via tech companies scares me
I know how some of the sausage is made so things like the google memo have me convinced there is no stopping the direction we're going
 
The whole thing about firing someone for criticizing Google culture?
 
7:14 AM
nah, how they want to modify algorhitms, search interests and use other techniques to sway the 2020 election
 
That was ridiculous. I remember that.
 
@forest Not for criticizing Google culture. For suggesting that biological trends (like personality differences) play some role in employment differences.
 
I'm not a fan of trump by any stretch, even sanders was not left enough for me, but that kind of power and the willingness to exercise it scares me
 
@jpmc26 I think it was criticizing Google's culture for ignoring that, I think.
@Magisch I agree 100%. Even if you agree with their ideology now, the pendulum will swing harder as the next generation replaces them. They shouldn't have that power in the first place.
 
And i'm seeing the same pattern in SE a bit, to a lesser degree. The "benevolent dictator" type mindset. "Our community is toxic with people with wrong(tm) opinions. How do we make it more inclusive and change those people's minds?" all for their own good, of course
2
nonetheless, I don't think top down influence from a corporation is worth the progress
 
7:16 AM
@jpmc26 The ironic thing is that his views are generally the accepted consensus of the scientific community, not the kind of extremist insanity that people suspect.
 
@forest I stopped agreeing with their ideology when they removed "don't be evil" as the prime directive
or you mean the US people?
 
I meant Google.
@AndrasDeak I stopped agreeing when the CEO asked shareholders if they want to be 100% content neutral, only adjusting page rankings when blackhat SEO is detected or when demanded to by court order, and just barely shut that down, paving the way for what they are doing now.
 
Anything you want to can be black hat
If you're sufficiently convinced, someone who's not progressive enough can be worse then any black hat
 
Well by blackhat SEO I meant fraudulent SEO. It has a specific meaning.
 
7:19 AM
And that's the folly. We're in a position where we're the evil in the eyes of the company. But we don't see it.
 
@Magisch Are you kidding? I saw it the moment "welcoming" first came out.
 
No, we don't see our "evil"
 
The evil that doesn't exist.
 
Ah, I see what you mean.
 
We're a diverse and unagreeable bunch, and we can hardly consensus on anything, but we're by and large less progressive then the company wants us to be. But most of us aren't scheming to keep any kind of oppression going, we're just normal people. So being seen and treated as evil or retrograde enrages us. The core of the disconnect
 
7:22 AM
@Magisch What you describe is exactly why the advocates of these ideologies resort to ideas like "power structures" and "privilege." They can't point to anyone actually doing anything wrong, so they have to invent an overarching boogeyman to justify their claim.
 
You're in the trap of assuming bad faith again
 
I'm not even "conservative", I'm (left) libertarian. But I've had lots of people call me anti-progressive for not holding the same extreme views as many self-labeled radical leftists.
 
most of my friends are "these people" they're not backwards justifying anything, they really just believe this different to you
None of what anyone at SE has put out has been offensive
It's evident they have a different ideology to most of us, but I'm convinced the vast majority of them operate in good faith and the disconnect is part of how far apart they're from their community
 
Well, I think using "panic attack" to describe feeling uneasy is a little offensive...
 
@Magisch That depends on the standard by which you evaluate it. If you evaluate it by the standard it puts forward... it may well be. It generates lots and lots of bad feelings, after all. If generating those feelings is such a bad thing, well...
 
7:25 AM
What if you actually feel it?
I get panic attacks if people touch me unexpectedly, is that offensive because it might be a little uneasy to you?
 
@Magisch Well yeah, no one thinks they're evil doers slowly petting their cat in front of a fire with a smirk whispering "just as planned. Bwahaha!"
@Magisch I assume that's autism or something? In the scroll log I exempted people with serious mental issues, since obviously they can't control when an attack occurs.
 
Anyways I'll stop this here and go back to flagging some serial voting. Will be interesting to see what comes of it.
 
(I wasn't trying to be rude fwiw, and I have no bias against mental disorders)
 
@Magisch Anyway, to clarify, forgive me. I didn't mean that most people are sitting there intentionally thinking up ideas they know are false. But at some point, you have to realize that there's some kind of bad analysis or confirmation bias or whatever the appropriate term is going on. I probably should have chosen different language. Sorry.
(Also, I didn't say "these people." I said, "advocates of these ideologies.")
 
8:12 AM
@forest I still haven't read the transcript but was this explained anywhere, or are you just assuming?
 
@AndrasDeak Assuming what, that someone used the term panic attack (they did) or that they didn't actually have a panic attack? I'm assuming that they didn't since, well, multiple employees having panic attacks over being criticized on MSO seems a little... unlikely.
 
the latter
Whether you find it reasonable or not people can have panic attacks for all sorts of reasons, and whatever we might think meta isn't the friendlies place if you work for the company. Making assumptions about other people's psychological state is as reasonable as making assumptions about their feelings of love or their hobbies.
 
Yes, I am assuming that, but for multiple reasons. First, she puts nightmares next to panic attacks. The former is something that might be upsetting and may make you feel bad for a day. The latter can be life-changing and can get you institutionalized. Second, multiple people having panic attacks over the prospect of getting criticized seems really unlikely.
 
Do you think it's normal to have nightmares about your work?
 
Yes, if your work is stressful. Well... bad dreams, at least. Nightmares by definition cause you to wake up and are far less common, but people use them interchangeably.
 
8:15 AM
Well friendly companies don't want their employees to have PTSD so they're cut such aggressive stressors. Which is what they claim to be doing.
 
You get PTSD from war, or rape, or abuse. Not from someone criticizing you.
 
@forest I don't see "cause you to wake up" in the definition and I know I've had nightmares that I slept through
@forest abuse? The kind that gives you panic attacks and nightmares?
 
@AndrasDeak Oh shit, I guess I've had the definition wrong my whole life. :/
@AndrasDeak Yes, e.g. parents beating the crap out of you in a drunken rage.
 
I don't think you can enumerate the stressors that can lead to significant mental trauma in a person, and furthermore any company should stop way before something like that happens.
But anyway ny main point is that you shouldn't make assumptions about what other people feel, and dismissing Sara's claims implies that you think they're lying.
 
Well, if anyone in the comment section is literally raping or beating staff, then yes, there should be measured put in place to protect them from that happening.
I don't think she's lying.
 
8:18 AM
you can argue against the change without dismissing your "opponent"
 
I think it's a sloppy choice of words that can be offensive.
 
they're not here to clarify, so we can only debate what is written in black and white
 
After all, if I beat someone in a video game really, really badly, they might say they got raped, but I wouldn't accuse them of lying about sexual abuse. It's just an offensive choice of words.
 
Really.
 
@AndrasDeak If they are actually having panic attacks because people are negative in MSO, then there is something seriously wrong and they have far bigger problems on their hands.
 
8:20 AM
Exactly.
 
That's when you go to a mental hospital and take heavy medication.
Or you stop doing shrooms during work hours.
 
If you believe Sara, you will see how they consider meta to be a dumpster fire. You can't fix your employees who feel victimized, but you can change the dynamics on the site
 
Oh I'm not saying I don't believe that some staff feel anxious about it.
But using "panic attacks" as a descriptor? I think that's hyperbole.
 
One one hand you have "employee(s?) having panic attacks due to meta" and on the other hand you have "that toxic loud minority on meta". The obvious choice is not "send your employees to rehab", and I agree with that.
 
If they're actually having panic attacks from that, they do need medical care.
Because that's not normal and indicates a far more severe mental problem.
And I disagree that they're (we're) toxic. That's pretty much what we've all been saying.
 
8:22 AM
@forest you think. But making broad statements in this situation based on your personal skepticism rooted in your self-identification and situation and experiences is only oil on said dumpster fire.
 
The site is negative, but not toxic. Toxic people get suspended.
 
@forest I agree
 
@AndrasDeak Again, it is such an extreme statement that I have trouble taking it literally anymore than I would, using the previous example, if a video gamer says the opponent team raped them. Sure you could say "but how do you know it didn't happen?". Still offensive.
 
then you are grossly off the mark
 
Are you using a different definition of panic attack from the one I am using?
 
8:25 AM
Situation 1: claim of something going on in a stressed person's head. Situation 2: "claim" of an act of forceful sexual intercourse committed by people who are not there.
 
I don't think you are reading what I said. Who isn't there?
The point is that people use hyperbole all the time.
You can't just acknowledge it because "you don't know, it might not be hyperbole".
 
6 mins ago, by forest
After all, if I beat someone in a video game really, really badly, they might say they got raped, but I wouldn't accuse them of lying about sexual abuse. It's just an offensive choice of words.
 
You have to rationally look at how likely it is.
 
I thought you meant remote multiplayer
if you play with acquaintances who use that kind of terminology then you should replace your acquaintances :P
 
@AndrasDeak Right, which means I don't know if my team mates are literally in the same home as my opponent. What I envisioned is not what you did, it appears.
 
8:26 AM
@forest eh, whatever
 
Eh, everyone in the video game community uses that term. It's offensive in the professional sphere, but it's normal for a place as crass as the video game world.
My point is that it can be taken either literally, or not.
And chances are, it shouldn't be taken literally. The same is true here.
 
Just realize that you can seem toxic even without trying to be that, or even thinking that you are that. This kind of subtle dismissal of the (psychological!) complaints by others is very close to this territory. But I have no intention of convincing you (it probably wouldn't even be possible).
 
I think this whole convo is more about understanding each other's views, not about convincing someone that they are right or wrong.
But I'm attacking the choice of words, not the claim that there is anxiety.
 
I'm certain that you are lacking empathy for the company (and Sara in specific) and I'm trying to convince you to understand their situation
@forest that's not what it sounds like
 
(I think Sara wasn't the one claiming to have a panic attack)
 
8:29 AM
it comes across as if you were saying "it can't be a panic attack because they weren't raped or in war, and anyway nightmares wake you up or something. So they are just stressed"
which is, in my opinion, both wrong and irrelevant even if true
 
You were right wrt nightmares. It seems I was taught wrong.
As for panic attacks, it takes a lot to cause PTSD. A bad day at work is not sufficient.
Unless your definition of panic attack and mine differ.
 
PTSD and panic attacks are probably different things, but I have neither, fortunately
anyway, I'm done
 
They are different, although PTSD causes panic attacks.
A panic attack is an involuntary, extreme reaction where you essentially shut down, are often unable to physically speak, might be curled up into a ball and screaming, or just shaking.
It's an extreme and severe manifestation of massive amounts of trauma.
People sometimes break bones or severely injure themselves due to involuntary contortions that occur as a result of the attack. It's a horrifying experience.
 
perhaps it's your definition that's off again
 
That's the medical definition.
 
8:32 AM
but again, this is a red herring
 
Look at it from my perspective. I see staff, who are refusing to read MSO, essentially claiming that multiple people who they work with are utterly incapacitated, having palpitations and sweating, being unable to speak, potentially for hours curled up in a fetal position or shaking violently in a corner at the thought of writing a post on MSO. I just don't see that happening.
And then I have a conversation with someone saying that I should take it literally.
@AndrasDeak So you see why I find this hard to take as anything but hyperbole?
 
I'm saying it's irrelevant whether SO employees follow protocol on having a panic attack. Focusing on this detail screams of you discrediting the company, whether intentional or not. It's a given that employees feel bad about meta, and part of it is understandable. What we should be debating is whether disabling HMP is the adequate response to stressed employees, and whether it will do anything to reduce that stress.
 
I'm focusing on this detail because I feel it is offensive to people who have panic disorder.
 
oh, that's very welcoming of you
 
I take it you think that I am nitpicking just to pick a fight with staff, then?
 
8:37 AM
Not really. I think you aren't even consciously registering their complaints as valid, which makes you worry about these details.
 
Do you know how horrifying it is to see someone you love have a panic attack, knowing that any form of comforting them will make things 10 times worse? It's not being "welcoming". It's objecting to the casual use of a severe and life-altering disorder that some people suffer from.
@AndrasDeak I'm not taking the complaint literally.
 
okay
 
Again, I don't doubt that they have anxiety (although I don't think they should).
 
8:55 AM
Definitions of "panic attack" vary but almost all definitions involve hyperventilation, inability to breathe, or palpitations
i.e. serious, potentially life-threatening physical symptoms
Hence the conversation earlier about how if someone really has those in response to community criticism then for God's sake stop making them do any public-facing work
I hadn't considered the possibility that "panic attacks" was intended as hyperbole as @forest suggests; I assumed it was meant entirely literally
 
Indeed. The company should be heavily fined if they're actually forcing their employees to do something that triggers a genuine, severe psychophysical attack symptoms.
2
@MarkAmery A lot of people nowadays mix panic attacks with anxiety attacks. The former can involve uncontrollable screaming and shaking. The latter involves anxiety and malaise.
It's just like people using "trigger" (a stimulus that induces a flashback - an instant feeling of being back in your most stressful situations, e.g. seeing a friend die, during an out of body experience / in hallucinations that can make reality indistinguishable from memory) to mean something that they don't want to think about because it upsets them, even if badly.
 
@MarkAmery Panic attacks aren't dangerous. Hyperventilation is not life threatening under otherwise normal circumstances. Heart palpitations aren't either. You might get shortness of breath, but that's different than "inability to breathe." Shortness of breath can be an indication of more serious problems like a heart attack, but it isn't generally dangerous on its own. They're not dangerous; they're just really scary.
 
They aren't necessarily life-threatening (though they can be), but they can absolutely be dangerous. Hyperventillation can trigger cardiac arrest in some people. People have died from overheating during panic attacks (more common in the elderly). A close friend of mine has a nasty scar on their arm because of involuntary scratching during an attack that lasted hours.
 
@forest Right, if you have other health problems along side it, it can be dangerous. But that's true of almost any medical condition. Colds aren't dangerous, unless you have a weakened immune system. Combining medical conditions always greatly increases the risks. We generally classify the level of danger by looking at how it plays out in an otherwise healthy individual.
 
The majority aren't immediately physically dangerous though as you say.
@jpmc26 Involuntary scratching can cause dangerous bleeding.
Severe sharking can result in hitting one's head, causing concussions.
The average panic attack isn't something that should make you fear for your life, but I would be very weary saying that they aren't dangerous on their own. It's like epilepsy in that sense.
The link you provided explains that you don't need to be hospitalized for a single attack. You'd know if someone is injured enough to need hospitalization (bleeding, falling unconscious).
 
9:16 AM
18 mins ago, by forest
@MarkAmery A lot of people nowadays mix panic attacks with anxiety attacks. The former can involve uncontrollable screaming and shaking. The latter involves anxiety and malaise.
 
I think that's far more likely what's been done here. They are using the term colloquially rather than the medical definition. While more precision might be appreciated, I think giving them the benefit of the doubt on this particular word choice is the right course of action here.
 
So a mistake rather than hyperbole?
 
Yes.
 
That would make sense. If the post were unlocked, I'd suggest an edit.
 
9:19 AM
You could raise a custom flag requesting a mod apply the edit, if you think it's important enough.
 
I can believe that a person under considerable work pressure during a moment of weakness might have an anxiety attack over the prospect of having to deal with a frustrated community.
@jpmc26 Maybe... Although three different people had three different interpretations, so I think I'll refrain from doing so until Sara is able to clarify.
 
Or if they have other stressful situations in their life in addition to work pressure. Regardless, I still think the onus is generally not on the community to adjust all their behavior in response. That is an issue to be worked out internally, between employee and employer, as to what accommodations can be made.
 
I agree. I guess I was just nitpicking because I found the wording offensive.
 
Maybe, but yet again, that kind of demonstrates the point. You can't possibly know what word choice will or won't be upsetting to any given person. And as your audience size increases, the chance someone will be offended by something you say will increase drastically. The only viable solution to avoid any offense is to say nothing at all.
...Although I could see some people offended or upset by mere silence in the face of a particular situation.
 
True. And I wasn't advocating that it gets censored, but pointing out the hyperbole (or mistake?).
The fact that it's offensive to me was more of a talking point than a logical argument.
 
9:25 AM
My point is you can't create an environment with the following properties: people are allowed to disagree or talk about difficult issues and people will not be offended or upset. Those two are mutually exclusive. You can have some policies to reduce the risk and reduce the level of harm, but you really can't get anywhere near having them both completely. One has to take priority.
If SO prioritizes the latter, they're going to make it impossible to give good answers, because the best answers invariably involve correcting the asker in some form. Telling them the correct understanding, showing them a brand new approach, telling them something is a bad idea.
*harm --> offense or stress
 
9:41 AM
@AndrasDeak I believe her that employees are frightened to post on meta, on the other hand I also believe changing the dynamic on the site can not be done by pushing changes without concertation when you know from one or two week ago this will be badly received.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:06 AM
Hi. The featured tag on the Facebook tracking post was removed by a moderator with the comment that Moderators only have 2 slots to feature things.
 
Zoe
Relevant:
1
Q: Did the newest rolled out Featured bugged?

Shinjo At the moment this post was posted 3 featured question has been asked. Nevertheless we only got 2 which 1 of them wasn't tagged as featured. Question: Is the new featured which replacing HMP limitted to only 2 questions? Intended bug?

 
As in the past, Moderators were already featuring stuff at their discretion (like burnination requests), does it mean that those two allowed featured slots is the same as what was allowed in the past?
 
Zoe
As of now, yes.
The same restrictions are there
 
So the removal of the Hot Meta Posts is currently a net loss, with no compensation?
 
Zoe
Yep.
 
11:10 AM
they should rotate the featured questions if there are more than 2 IMO, because I don't think they do currently
 
Zoe
No one wins :]
@Rakete1111 They do rotate, but extremely slowly
 
Never noticed, so it reaaaaaly slow :)
 
Zoe
I think it's on the line of an hour or more
 
It may be time to make some usage of stackoverflowoverflow: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/46551/…
We have to scroll so much to find Sara Chipps answer.
"Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta."
 
Zoe
11:28 AM
@Cœur CTRL+F sara chipps. One match, auto-scroll
 
Meta is moderated, unlike Twitter.
"We're removing Hot on Meta as I don't want to send new people to a place where people have these experiences. Full stop."
^ That's an official statement from a Stack Exchange Manager. With this vision, it looks like they are preparing to shutdown Meta entirely. They would only keep the blog and the contact-us form.
2
 
@Cœur I mean, the statement reads as if they were prepared to do exactly that and the CMs talked them down from it
so no surprise there
 
awesome
the facebook tracking one is useless anyway
 
11:59 AM
@Cœur "at their discretion" sounds a bit misleading, it seems to me burninations are featured pretty rigorously
 
My vision is that we reduce Meta to the same scope other meta sites have: (note: I don’t speak for Stack Exchange; I’m a community elected moderator for Stack Overflow): meta.stackoverflow.com/a/387614/16587
 

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