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9:00 PM
Like compare this with this
One question needed a trivial answer, while the other one allowed for in-depth answers
 
Compare how? Why those? Sorry, I'm missing your point.
 
@Catija I'm guessing like 50% of the aged away votes are probably mine. At least it feels like that. :-)
 
One question (a low quality one) was specific and had a trivial (correct me if it is not trivial)
 
I admit to being surprised it was so low... But... that's what SEDE says...
 
But with the second one, it allowed answers to go indepth (wasn't so specific)
 
9:04 PM
@Catija Yes, it's quite frustrating when I see someone provide a full answer in the comments. Even more frustrating is when those get flagged for deletion and the flag gets declined because you got the one mod who disagrees with that policy. Even more frustrating when you post a full answer as an answer, reflag, and still get your flag declined. That's maybe the one up-side to mod-team-wide flagging increases is that such flags will not get erroneously declined as much/anymore
 
@MilkyWay90 would be too broad and no MCVE these days, perhaps not the best example
 
If we lower our standard, the first type of question will appear even more compared to the second type of question
 
FWIW I think aging away close votes is a Mistake(TM). It's based on the premise that we have enough eyes on moderation queues / new questions to not let any slip through the cracks. That's... never been anywhere close to true.
 
@AndrasDeak Yeah maybe not the best example
Also just a disclaimer that I've only been here since 2018
so I may not know as much
 
@TylerH I thought it was only a pragmatic tool to keep the CVQ in check
 
9:06 PM
Of course it's impossible to tell for sure how many questions were never closed due to close votes getting aged away, but you can pretty reliably/practically say the amount would be pretty much all questions that ever received a close vote. So that's... 10% of questions that get closed over some metric of time?
 
@TylerH Are you flagging with a custom flag? Just curious. Mods get a lot of comment flags and there's absolutely a concern that removing valuable comments is destructive... but if you move the content to an answer, particularly if you improve it, it should be reasonable to request the comment be deleted, you just need to make sure the mods see that the answer exists.
 
@AndrasDeak Meh, CVQ size is a total sugar pill (there's a better term I just can't think of it...). The code has been changed a few times to adjust how many questions are in the queue to achieve a certain psychological effect.
In reality there ought to be 250k questions in the CVQ
 
That's a lot
 
@Catija Yes, I flagged with a custom flag after my prescribed flag(s) were declined. In the interest of full disclosure I'm referring to a specific incident that occurred a while back. It's not hard to find if you look at my Meta questions.
@MilkyWay90 SO gets a lot of close-worthy questions.
 
Also can somebody give user11632495 write access
 
9:08 PM
But alas, we only get 50 close votes a day.
 
in case he/she wants to chat?
 
@MilkyWay90 There's no RO on this room so it would take a mod or CM to do so
 
@TylerH Yes, I have seen that
 
These days most new questions are dupes or off-topic, with some debugging problems and new language features
 
@Catija Can you give user11632495 write access?
@AndrasDeak Some are also pretty unclear
 
9:09 PM
I'd CC Catija about it but she is on mobile I think atm and I'm not sure about mobile chat access. Though employees may have a different set of commands from mods
 
@TylerH I don't know that I need to... I remember an incident a couple of months ago... I seem to remember there were... specific issues? But I'm only half aware of things and not quite in a place to look at it right this second.
 
@MilkyWay90 after clarification go to step 1
 
@AndrasDeak Yeah, true
But I have one question
 
@TylerH Nah. We have the same ones.
@MilkyWay90 Done.
 
@Catija tl;dr the mod that handled my flags misinterpreted my flags as trying to "teach those darn users something" (rather than just trying to get NLN content removed) and misattributed my flags and Meta post asking for guidance in bad faith. Of course, that's my take.
 
9:12 PM
Do the new users skip over the tutorial you do before asking?
 
@MilkyWay90 Are you referring to the Ask Question Wizard?
 
The Tour
 
I remember there was like a page you would have to read before asking a question for the first time
 
the tour? that's something that can be determined
 
Look up the number of people who have asked questions that don't have that badge
 
Not the tour
 
i don't recall any such page, other than the tour
 
There's an interstitial that pops up before you get to the ask question page... or at least... there used to be one... I think it's active here. It's active on MSE if you're new.
 
ok
I'll see
@Catija It's not there anymore
 
Yeah, I only know of the big blue "Hero" banner, if you're talking about something other than the Tour or Wizard
 
Yes
that one
 
hmm... it just dawned on me, if we must have a "home page" that isn't a list of potentially bad questions, why not make it the tour
6
 
@Catija Heh, I like how you can Proceed regardless of whether you click that "thanks" checkbox
 
@TylerH Nah, you can because you've got rep. If you're new, you can't.
 
9:16 PM
28 mins ago, by MilkyWay90
I feel as though no matter how we change the UX or get veteran users to be nice, new users will always feel unwelcomed.
^
See the other one below it
Do you guys agree?
I'm just saying this because I've been on the other side of this (being a new user asking off-topic questions)
I looked at my questions from back then now and saw that the commenters were actually helpful
 
@Catija ah. Still, that's not exactly ideal UX either, though I guess it's highly unlikely a high rep user would find that page by accident
 
unlike what I saw back then
 
@MilkyWay90 depends. If you remove enough friction, such as downvotes, tours, rules, question closures, then new users will feel very welcome
The cost of course is quality.
 
@TylerH I meant without destroying SO
 
@MilkyWay90 Therein lies the rub.
In the beginning, Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky created Stack Overflow.This had made many people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. ;-)
2
 
9:19 PM
lol
I already know
scroll to the top of the page
Oh Chrome just crashed for me
 
@TylerH As I mentioned, I'm not actually sure it's active on SO currently... just because it exists doesn't mean it's used. It exists on every site... we just don't necessarily have it turned on.
 
I really want to make another account and test it
 
Oh, and if you look at the MSE one... you'll see that the top chunk is customizable. :/
 
@MilkyWay90 You should upgrade to Firefox :-)
 
but I'm guessing it's against the Terms of Service
 
9:24 PM
@Catija One thing I am glad about that I think could be publicized better is that mods have the ability (or at least the ability to ask CMs) to adjust their Help Center pages (at least some of them)
 
@TylerH I personally like Chrome better
 
@TylerH Just the one for the most part. But, yes.
 
it turns out an extension crashed my browser
 
For example, I got frustrated with RPG.SE mods handling comments differently than how their own Help Center page on comments and the placeholder text described. There was ultimately a partial remediation; I was able to get them to update their help center to reflect how they handle comments differently than every other site on the network
 
@MilkyWay90 What, alt accounts? Totally fine as long as you're not doing things on more than one account that you couldn't do on a single account... targeted voting, for example... or getting around question restrictions.
 
9:25 PM
That's not something I think a lot of people realize is an avenue
on SO people just assume Shog has to do it
which... may be true, actually.
 
Which page, specifically?
 
oh ok
 
Er, I'd have to go look for it
 
You mean the last bullet point there? Yeah, that's the only page mods can edit.
 
oh it's replaced with the ask question wizard
So wait, are there statistics that what was the percentage of questions closed when the asker asked with the Question Wizard?
to know whether it is or isn't effective
 
9:29 PM
We're looking at the data about the Question wizard now.
 
oh ok
That's nice to know
When can we expect the data to be released?
 
I'm not sure. I've seen the preliminary stuff and it's interesting... but it's a lot of variables to look at, so we're still trying to understand it.
 
Re: the point both @KevinB and @Catija made about potential good contributors (like Catija's husband) getting deterred - there's a concept called an "Asshole Filter" that I think both the staff and Meta don't think about enough. An asshole filter is where you inadvertently set up a set of rules and enforcement techniques that deters nice, conscientious people you want to interact with, but has no impact at all on assholes.
 
hmm
 
9:32 PM
@MarkAmery What do you mean by "assholes?"
 
that's an interesting way of looking at it
 
@Catija Looks like I was mixing up two incidents. The comment box one was still unresolved. The issue I was thinking of was the FAQ page you mentioned getting updated to include IPS questions being on-topic on RPG.SE if you simply mention the an RPG somewhere in the question.
 
@MilkyWay90 "Assholes": people who are selfish, inconsiderate of others, and don't care about rulebreaking
 
Someone asked a Q about their brother/friend not respecting their wishes to not be interrupted when playing a game, and I commented that it might get better answers on IPS since it was an interpersonal question rather than an RPG-based one, and I got positively reamed by a mod for 'trying to sabotage the site's success'.
 
@TylerH oh
 
9:34 PM
That's more or less the definition used in the posts about "Asshole filters" I've seen in the past, and it works well as a description of many of the bad actors we have to deal with on SO
 
Suffice it to say I've not had the best experience on that site, so I don't spend much time there.
 
@MarkAmery I don't think new users are intentionally trying to break the rules
 
anyway, time for me to go run errands, be back tomorrow. At this rate this chatroom probably ought to be converted into the new SO Meta Lounge with the breadth and length of conversation it's experiencing.
 
@TylerH Yeah, I thought about that too
 
@MilkyWay90 some always are. "I know this is bad dont downgrade me pls"
 
9:36 PM
This chatroom recieves a lot of messages
 
@AndrasDeak Eh, that's not so much "trying to break the rules" as "desperate for help"
 
@AndrasDeak I see
Anyways, I think I have to take off now (maybe I can come back in a few hours)
See y'all
 
trying to break the rules'd be more like people who post spam or rude messages intentionally. The kind of stuff flagged by Smokey
 
@MilkyWay90 I think many of them don't care one way or another. But regardless, we can work with a less controversial definition of "asshole", just for the sake of the "asshole filter" concept, and say that "nice people" are whoever we'd like to contribute more, and "assholes" are whoever we'd like to have to interact with less. The important thing is that an "asshole filter" is one that disproportionately filters out the people you want to keep around, and that you'd thus be better not having
 
@TylerH meh
 
9:39 PM
I think about this concept a lot. It's one reason I really dislike whenever we have written rules that everybody in the community knows we don't really follow, because such rules deter the conscientious while having no impact on the selfish
 
10:16 PM
@AndrasDeak If you remember the chat in the Python room (about Java oddly enough - not sure if you were there): a lot of it centered around new features in Java11. I use Java professionally more than Python - and I never ask or even look for answers on SO if its about new systems. Why? cause the only questions here about the current LTS (in fact, most of the Java 8 questions I find as well) are "school work" level questions. Nothing on the new ones unless one of the really dedicated veterans posts
so I wouldn't even call it "some": its far below that
 

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